Salwat on PIRS

[st0necol]

Well...this question is in my mind for some time now...finally got time to post it...

Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) is regarded as a guide for the momins to Ali. He guided them and prepared them to recognize Ali.

Similarly, we say that Pirs are the Avtaar of Prophet Muhammad as they also belong to the Imam's family. Earlier, the Pir and Imam were two different. At that time, Pirs also guided momins on the true path. At that time Imam's job was not to guide everyone but to instruct Pirs to make others follow him (Am I Right?) And Pirs used to guide. Same as Nabi Muhammad (PBUH) used to do. He also can be said a Pir. Then why we recite Salwat upon Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), Hazrat Ali and all other Imams. Why not those Pirs who were from Imam's Family then?

And anyone knows why Piratan job is taken by the Imam himself?

[kmaherali]

This subject has been discussed extensively in this forum. Click on the 'search' link mentioned above and type the words 'Pir' and 'Prophet' and search for both words. You will get a list of all threads. In particular you may want to go to:

Doctrines --> Holy Prophets and Holy Pirs

Also you may want to go to the following thread on the significance of Salwaat.

Doctrines --> The Holy Salwaat

We do recite Salwaats upon the names of the Pirs as well. They are the bearers of Noor just like the Prophet.

The Imam is the eternal bearer of Noor and hence he is the Shah Pir at all times. He may decide to 'delegate' the role of Piratan to someone else temporarily.

[yaamf77]

. Then why we recite Salwat upon Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), Hazrat Ali and all other Imams. Why not those Pirs who were from Imam's Family then?

33:43 Quran :
HE it is Who sends down HIS (yusallee) blessing on you, and HIS angels pray for you, that HE may bring you forth from all kinds of darkness into light. And HE is Merciful to the believers.

"Huwa allathee yusallee AAalaykum wamala-ikatuhu liyukhrijakum mina alththulumati ila alnnoori wakana bialmu/mineena raheeman"

Infact we need Salwat (Blessings) of God not ( Rehmat ul lil aalamin) Muhammad or Imam and Pirs. so blessings should be seek by and for momineens. and when we recit salwat on Muhammad , Imam and Pir and In it we seek blessings through them. So Salwat should be recited on Pirs and Momineens as mentioned in 33:43 God himself send salwat on momineens.

[email protected]

[arlenebatada]

No, we cannot recite salwat on anyone except Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and his progeny. In our du'a also, we never send salwat on Pirs.

Allahuma salli 'ala Muhammadini al-Mustafa,
wa 'ala 'Aliyyini al-Murtada,
wa 'ala al-ai'mmati al-athaar
wa 'ala hujjat al-'amr
sahib al-zamaani wa al-'asr
imaamin al-hadiri al-mawjood
mawlana Shah Karim al-husayni

O Allah! send Your blessings on Muhammad the chosen,
and on 'Ali the favourite,
and on Imams the pure,
and on master of the time and age,
Imam Shah Karim al-husayni (a.s.)

Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni (a.s) called wazir Kasam 'Ali in person and made the following farman to him and asked him to tell this to the jam'at:
"Do not forget to recite salwat when in my farman, or in jam'at, or anywhere else you hear or take the name of the Prophet."
(Nagpur 18 Nov 1967)

A person from Karachi in 1960 had written a letter to Hazar Imam (a.s) and asked him if salwat can be recited on Pirs. Imam replied to tariqah board on 10 August 1960 with a letter, which also bore the reply to that person's question. The reply is as follows:
"It is incorrect to take names of any people other than the Prophet or the Imams with the salwat"

[kmaherali]

A person from Karachi in 1960 had written a letter to Hazar Imam (a.s) and asked him if salwat can be recited on Pirs. Imam replied to tariqah board on 10 August 1960 with a letter, which also bore the reply to that person's question. The reply is as follows:
"It is incorrect to take names of any people other than the Prophet or the Imams with the salwat"

I am surprised that this guidance has not been communicated to the Jamat. At least I have not heard it and would like to hear it in JamatKhana. The Pirs are after all the progeny of the Imams. Prophet Muhammad himself was a Pir in our tradition and of course a murid of the Imam.

[arlenebatada]

A person from Karachi in 1960 had written a letter to Hazar Imam (a.s) and asked him if salwat can be recited on Pirs. Imam replied to tariqah board on 10 August 1960 with a letter, which also bore the reply to that person's question. The reply is as follows:
"It is incorrect to take names of any people other than the Prophet or the Imams with the salwat"

I am surprised that this guidance has not been communicated to the Jamat. At least I have not heard it and would like to hear it in JamatKhana.

You feel I'm lying? I'm an Isma'ili. How can I lie in the name of Hazar Imam (a.s.)?

The Pirs are after all the progeny of the Imams. Prophet Muhammad himself was a Pir in our tradition and of course a murid of the Imam.

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) was not a murid of the Imam. He himself was the Imam before Imam 'Ali (a.s.).

A Messenger of Allah (swt), before becoming a Messenger is an Imam.

Da'i Ahmed b. Ibrahim al-Naysaaburi writes:

"..the messenger arrives first at the rank of the imamate. Then, if the times require the establishment of a [new] religious law,..the imam occupies the place of the messenger in his age and time. The messenger before arising to declare the religious law, is one of the imams having assumed command from a previous imam. After finalizing the religious law, he hands over the command to the [next] imam. The imam is [therefore] present in the world at all times; the world is never deprived of him."
(Kitab ithbat al-imama/degrees of excellence)

By this definition, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) was the Imam before Imam 'Ali (a.s). Only then can he say "Do I not have more right on the believers than they've over themselves?" To which the people replied "Yes, O Rasulullah", after which he said- "Of whosoever I'm Mawla (i.e. the one who has right over you), 'Ali is his Mawla".

We've always been told that Muhammad and 'Ali are the same Noor. I've made some quotations on the same on this link:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 1&start=45

Moreover, the role of Pir and Imam are interchangeable at times (not always). The forthcoming Imam can become a Pir of the current Imam. All Imams are Pirs, but not all Pirs are Imams. Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) was a Pir after the demise of Rasululullah (s.a.a.s) and a trustee Imam after the demise of Imam 'Ali (a.s.).

Imam 'ala dhikrihi al-salam (a.s.) addresses Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as Imam and explains the types of offspring of an Imam as follows:

"It must be known that the offspring of the Imam are of four kinds. One is his physical offspring, like Must'ali; one is his spiritual offspring, like Salman; one is his offspring both physically and spiritually, like Imam Hasan (a.s.), who is called the trustee Imam (imam-i mustawda ); and one is his offspring physically, spiritually and in reality, all three, like Mawlana Husayn (a.s.), who is called the permanently established Imam (imam-i mus-taqarr)."

-Imam Hasan 'ala dhikrihi al-salam (a.s.)
(Epistle on the Recognition of the Imam)

Pir Nasir Khusraw (r.a.) addresses Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as Imam and explains the difference between Mustaqarr (hereditery) Imam and Mustawda (trustee) Imam as follows:

"Now we have to explain the difference between the real hereditary Imam, mustaqarr, and the trustee Imam, mustawda. The difference between them exists only in so far as the question of inheritance is concerned, as in the case of Imam Hasan (a.s.) and Imam Husayn (a.s.). The trustee Imam, mustawda, is a son of the Imam ... who also knows all the mysteries of imamate, and so long as he discharges his duty he is the greatest of all people of his time. But he is not endowed with the privilege of transmitting his imamate to his descendants, who can never become Imams, only Sayyids. The hereditary Imam, mustaqarr, is endowed with all the privileges of imamate, and transmits them to his successors"

-Pir Nasir Khusraw (r.a.)
(Kalam-i Pir)

Mostly, the need for this provision is so that the Mustaqarr (hereditery) Imam can be protected by Mustawda (trustee) Imam.

One more example is of Imam Mu'minShah (a.s.), who is known as Pir Shihab al-Din Shah (r.a.).

Imam Mu'minShah (a.s.)'s name appears as Imam of that time in Khojki manuscript script number 22 in the Harvard University collection which contains a register of the Imams transcribed during the imamate of Imam Khalil lillahi 'Ali (a.s.). It includes Mu'minshah's name between Imam Shams al-Din Muhammad (a.s.) and Imam Qasimshah (a.s.). However, manuscript number 19 of the same collection, which contains a register that apparently dates to immediately after the death of the Imam Aga 'Alishah (a.s.), omits his name.

[kmaherali]

You feel I'm lying? I'm an Isma'ili. How can I lie in the name of Hazar Imam (a.s.)?

Perhaps you are misinformed or the Jamat is left in the dark about this important Hidayat. The recitattion of Salwats upon the Pirs is widespread in the Jamat. If there is indeed such a Farman, then it should be read out periodically so that the Jamat does not indulge in nafarmani.

Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) was not a murid of the Imam. He himself was the Imam before Imam 'Ali (a.s.)..

Prophet Muhammad was the first Ismaili Pir and hence a murid of the Imam. According to the Old Dua which was recitated for centuries and was sanctioned by the Imams, the Imam before Hazarat Ali was his father Hazarat Abu Talib for complete Vishanapuri (genealogy) of the Imams you may want to go to:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 36&start=0

Tusi in Paradise of Submission has stated that the line of Imamat is distinct.

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.

[arlenebatada]

You feel I'm lying? I'm an Isma'ili. How can I lie in the name of Hazar Imam (a.s.)?

Perhaps you are misinformed or the Jamat is left in the dark about this important Hidayat. The recitattion of Salwats upon the Pirs is widespread in the Jamat. If there is indeed such a Farman, then it should be read out periodically so that the Jamat does not indulge in nafarmani. Prophet Muhammad was the first Ismaili Pir and hence a murid of the Imam. According to the Old Dua which was recitated for centuries and was sanctioned by the Imams, the Imam before Hazarat Ali was his father Hazarat Abu Talib for complete Vishanapuri (genealogy) of the Imams you may want to go to:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 36&start=0

Tusi in Paradise of Submission has stated that the line of Imamat is distinct.

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.

Da'i Nasir al-din Tusi writes "the true imams". A messenger is first an Imam and then a Messenger. He can be a trustee Imam. Please read all the quotations, in case if you haven't. Hazrat Adam (a.s.) [the first Adam of the first age I mean, be it any name] was first an Imam and then a Messenger. Only then can he appoint Imam Shish (a.s.) [the first Shish of the first age, be it any name] as the Imam. Else, it would mean that before the time of Imam Shish (a.s), the earth was without an Imam. I've also tried to explain how Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) were the Imams. The Fatimid and Almut sources affirm this. Pir Nasir Khusraw was a Pir and he affirms this by accepting Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as the Imam. Imam 'ala dhikrihi al-salaam(a.s)- an Imam accepts this. And all the quotations are from the ones who were recognised and allowed by the Imam to impart knowledge.

I'm sure about what I've posted regarding the letter. That letter was not meant for the jam'at. It was meant for the institution and so that's why it might not have been read in the jama'tkhanas. That line from the talika on salwat was also quoted by Rai Kamaluddin Aly Muhammad in his wa'ez- the only wa'ezeen I know till date who is thorough with the learnings of the Qur'an and who had the privilege to teach the sons of Hazar Imam (a.s.).

Don't mind, but I don't understand why is it that anything that doesn't match your set of beliefs, you label it as incorrect, despite references made available- both religious as well as academic? Can't a person be in a constant state of learning?

I've mentioned this many times that ginans are often allegorical and have been written in a cultural context. It is not just me, but also Prof. Dr. Ali Asani, from Harvard University, who is also a professor at the IIS. He imparts this very same teaching at the IIS- an institution of Hazar Imam (a.s.). He has done intense research on ginans. He also says this in his book "Ecstasy and Enlightenment". You'll find him a lot of times meeting Hazar Imam (a.s.).

He says in the pre-mentioned book of his:

"Literatures in the vernaculars were instrumental in explaining fundamental Islamic concepts to the native populations in terms that were were familiar and accessible to them... In the process the authors who formulated these literatures, indigenized the Islamic tradition to the local Indian cultural environment.

The Isma'ili Pirs, too, seem to have adopted a similar approach in their interaction with native populations, presenting Islam in its Nizari Isma'ili form, in a manner that would be accessible to their pre-dominantly Hindu audiences. They utilised myths and concepts prevalent in the Indian religious milieu in order to provide a locally intelligible (capable of being understood) expression to fundamental Isma'ili pronciples. For example, through a process of mythopoesis (making or producing myths), they created an ostensible (represented or appearing as such; pretended) correspondence between the Vaishnava Hindu concept of Avtara and the Isma'ili concept of the Imam... Thus, their concern for facilitating a smooth transition and a continuum from one religion to another let the Pirs to potray Isma'ili Islam as the completion or culmination (a concluding action) of the Hindu tardition."

If anyone were to say that what ginans say is the entire truth literally and any other teachings of any our da'is is wrong/irrelevent to us today, then it would mean that non-satpanthis have been kept in darkness because ginans have never been made available to them. I've an Afghan friend who is an Isma'ili and he said that they don't have ginans and they don't follow teachings of our pirs, and they follow teachings of our da'is. Even when we had the old du'a in Kutchi, they had their prayers in Arabic and did not have the phrase "Ali sahi Allah" (I don't intend to discuss on this topic). So does this mean that they were wrong all the time and only we have been right?

When Pir compares Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) with Brahma, he probably means that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) (a Messenger) is the Creator of religion. When he calls Imam 'Ali (a.s.) as Vishnu, he probably means that he (an Imam) is the Sustainer of religion. And probably this implies that Shiv who is the resurrector in Hindu mythology is the Qa'im (Mahdi) of the religion.

Imam doesn't allow old ginans any more. Those ginans have been taken back by ITREB, and parallelly Fatimid and Almut teachings are being translated at the IIS and are being made accessible. This should be an indication.

[Admin]

There is already a discussion on this subject in an other thread. please first read all the threads and then only start posting. Also read the rules of posting before contributing to the Forum. I hope you understand. We can not afford to repeat all the past conversations each time someone new comes to the Forum.

[shivaathervedi]

A person from Karachi in 1960 had written a letter to Hazar Imam (a.s) and asked him if salwat can be recited on Pirs. Imam replied to tariqah board on 10 August 1960 with a letter, which also bore the reply to that person's question. The reply is as follows:
"It is incorrect to take names of any people other than the Prophet or the Imams with the salwat"

I am surprised that this guidance has not been communicated to the Jamat. At least I have not heard it and would like to hear it in JamatKhana. The Pirs are after all the progeny of the Imams. Prophet Muhammad himself was a Pir in our tradition and of course a murid of the Imam.

Prophet Muhammad was not a mureed of the Imam. Ismailis follow Ja'fari Madhab and no where in Ja'fari Madhab it is mentioned that Prophet was mureed of Mowla Ali. Also this notion is not available in Fatimi literature. Did Prophet took oath of allegiance/Bhaiyat on hands of Mowla Ali?

GAR JUDA DAANI ALI AZ MUSTAFA
DUSHMAN E JAANIT KHUDA E KIBRIYA AST ( RUMI )

If you consider Ali separate from Muhammad Mustafa (keep in mind) God will become your enemy.

" MONKUNTU MOWLA FA HAZA ALIYYUN MOWLA" is a valid proof that Noor e Mustafa and Noor e Murtaza is wahid. Ali and Muhammad are Mowla e Ummah.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I have posted what salvat actually means earlier in topic by that name.
Salvat is for raising LEVEL of one's own soul.
Salvat can be prayed all the time.whole travelling or when one sees a funerals even in tasbish where deceased person name is taken.
See the question asked and the WORDINGS of the reply.
Question asked was is salvat to be recited when pir name is evoked.
MHI did not say negetaive to that ,but taking pirs name in or part of salvat is incorrect.let be any name ,pray salvat every minute.no names are need Pirs being Noor e Mohammed ,so a Sayer by default has to recite salvat for his own soul and not Ali Mohammed of pir ( Ready my earlier post).see the reply word by word of MHI reply.we are not allowed to say or add name ANY ANY word/words in salvat but recite if one wishes for own benefit when Pis names appear or in funeral or tasbih when any deceased name is read out.
Ignorance lies in not reading properly word by word or UNDERSTANDING what Imams says or write.
It was not totally well written question ,a correct reply to not to take name with salvat( we have never done that.).
So a correct question is needed.
Wheter to recite salvat on hearing thier name or recite salvat in thier names.( both has totally different legal meaning and implication.MHI replied to second one and mr batata is assuming reply to an improper question.
I would say recite salvat if you like this message ,bless your own soul.
This civilization (99.98% of humanity) indulges in and as Clash of Ignorance.

[kmaherali]

We've always been told that Muhammad and 'Ali are the same Noor. I've made some quotations on the same on this link:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 1&start=45

The Imam being the Mazhar of the Divine Essence is at all times the ShahPir or GurNar - both the Imam and the Pir. Being the Mazhar of the Divine Essence he is also the Bearer of the Noor. The Prophet was the Bearer of the Noor. Hence the Noor of Ali and muhammad are the same. But Aly in addition also functions as the Bearer of the Niranjan (the undescribable Divine Essence). The Imam may choose to delegate the role of Piratan to another member of Ahl al-Bayt and hence we have had separate institutions of Imamat and Piratan in our history.

There is a verse of the Ginan which states:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed. The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Ali.

Moreover, the role of Pir and Imam are interchangeable at times (not always). The forthcoming Imam can become a Pir of the current Imam. All Imams are Pirs, but not all Pirs are Imams. Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) was a Pir after the demise of Rasululullah (s.a.a.s) and a trustee Imam after the demise of Imam 'Ali (a.s.)..

Can you explain in what sense was Hazart Hasan a trustee Imam if different than Piratan?

Imam 'ala dhikrihi al-salam (a.s.) addresses Hazrat Hasan (a.s.) as Imam and explains the types of offspring of an Imam as follows:

"It must be known that the offspring of the Imam are of four kinds. One is his physical offspring, like Must'ali; one is his spiritual offspring, like Salman; one is his offspring both physically and spiritually, like Imam Hasan (a.s.), who is called the trustee Imam (imam-i mustawda ); and one is his offspring physically, spiritually and in reality, all three, like Mawlana Husayn (a.s.), who is called the permanently established Imam (imam-i mus-taqarr).".

Nevertheless, there is a difference between Imam Husein and Hazarat Hasan. The Imam Mustaqarr is not equal to Imam Mustawda. You can have a person leading a prayer called the Imam.

The Imam in the technical sense in our Tariqah is unique.

[kmaherali]

Da'i Nasir al-din Tusi writes "the true imams". A messenger is first an Imam and then a Messenger. He can be a trustee Imam. Please read all the quotations, in case if you haven't. Hazrat Adam (a.s.) [the first Adam of the first age I mean, be it any name] was first an Imam and then a Messenger..

There is only ONE Mustaqarr Imam in Ismailism at a given time. Imam Mustawda is not equal to Imam Musatqarr and hence the Prophets Adam, Hazarat Ibrahim were not the Imams like Shah Karim.

I'm sure about what I've posted regarding the letter. That letter was not meant for the jam'at. It was meant for the institution and so that's why it might not have been read in the jama'tkhanas. That line from the talika on salwat was also quoted by Rai Kamaluddin Aly Muhammad in his wa'ez- the only wa'ezeen I know till date who is thorough with the learnings of the Qur'an and who had the privilege to teach the sons of Hazar Imam (a.s.).

All the Jamati Talikas are addressed to the Council. They are read our as "My Dear Preseident and Members...". If you are saying the Talika was authentic then it should be read our periodically so that the Jamat is not led astray.

Just tangential...

Imam's knowledge is not derived from physical learning.

Don't mind, but I don't understand why is it that anything that doesn't match your set of beliefs, you label it as incorrect, despite references made available- both religious as well as academic? Can't a person be in a constant state of learning?.

I am always open to new ideas but when something contradicts the fundamentals of our beliefs, I am always suspicious. In our Old Dua the names of Pirs were recited for centuries. There must be a good reason for that!

Mowlana Hazar Imam made a statement: "Only the faith of your forefathers will enable you to live in peace in this world and the next."(Takht Nashini Nairobi)

What is the faith of our forefathers if not the one stated in the Old Dua and the Ginans?

I've mentioned this many times that ginans are often allegorical and have been written in a cultural context. It is not just me, but also Prof. Dr. Ali Asani, from Harvard University, who is also a professor at the IIS. He imparts this very same teaching at the IIS- an institution of Hazar Imam (a.s.). He has done intense research on ginans. He also says this in his book "Ecstasy and Enlightenment". You'll find him a lot of times meeting Hazar Imam (a.s.). .

The Ginans are the Tafsir of the Qur'an for the Jamat. Tafsir means that what was allegorical and general in the Qur'an is made specific and clear for the Jamat. What is the point of having a tafsir if in important matters it is still ambiguous?

I person close to the Imam physically does not say anything about his spiritual status or understanding. A person close to the Imam physically may be very far spiritually. So refrain from any mention of a person's physical closeness to the Imam. It means nothing.

If anyone were to say that what ginans say is the entire truth literally and any other teachings of any our da'is is wrong/irrelevent to us today, then it would mean that non-satpanthis have been kept in darkness because ginans have never been made available to them. I've an Afghan friend who is an Isma'ili and he said that they don't have ginans and they don't follow teachings of our pirs, and they follow teachings of our da'is. Even when we had the old du'a in Kutchi, they had their prayers in Arabic and did not have the phrase "Ali sahi Allah" (I don't intend to discuss on this topic). So does this mean that they were wrong all the time and only we have been right?.

I think each tradition should be judged on its merit. The strength of diversity is that we can derive the best of each tradition and project it forward. I have admired Qasidas and much as I have admired the Ginans. The central nessage is the same.

When Pir compares Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) with Brahma, he probably means that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) (a Messenger) is the Creator of religion. When he calls Imam 'Ali (a.s.) as Vishnu, he probably means that he (an Imam) is the Sustainer of religion. And probably this implies that Shiv who is the resurrector in Hindu mythology is the Qa'im (Mahdi) of the religion. .

I don't see any reason to change Muhammad as Bhrama (the Creator) and Imam as Vishnu as Preserver and the Imam as Qaim the resurrector.

Imam doesn't allow old ginans any more. Those ginans have been taken back by ITREB, and parallelly Fatimid and Almut teachings are being translated at the IIS and are being made accessible. This should be an indication.

On the contrary the Imam has said that the Ginans are important for generations to come.

As I said we should benefit from the knowledge of the Fatimids and Alamut as well, but not at the expense of Ginans.

[kmaherali]

There is already a discussion on this subject in an other thread. please first read all the threads and then only start posting. Also read the rules of posting before contributing to the Forum. I hope you understand. We can not afford to repeat all the past conversations each time someone new comes to the Forum.

It is not very helpful if you cannot pinpoint exactly where the discussions have taken place. It is difficult to navigate through this forum for a beginner. So if new questions are raised let them be addressed unless we can pin point where exactly they can be found.

[nuseri]

To batada.: Ya Ali Madad.
I observe you as haqiqati ,I study the soul by word spoken or expressed by them.
Who was who wrote to MHI ?
As a notional Attorney general of Ali.
If that letter would have come to me first?
I would have send it back to articulated and phrased properly.
As it was written with some ignorance in language or word.
The question MHI which could have been written maybe.
Do one salvat for Pirs ,if their name in taken in JK.?
And salvan ON Pir ,that can legally interpreted as to ADD even Pirs name in total salvat recitation.
The word on pir and for pir was ignorance & folly .MHI replied to the wromgly questioned answer.this serpent is a disaster warning for Admin,who need to be sent early to heavens

[arlenebatada]

To batada.: Ya Ali Madad.
I observe you as haqiqati ,I study the soul by word spoken or expressed by them.
Who was who wrote to MHI ?
As a notional Attorney general of Ali.
If that letter would have come to me first?
I would have send it back to articulated and phrased properly.
As it was written with some ignorance in language or word.
The question MHI which could have been written maybe.
Do one salvat for Pirs ,if their name in taken in JK.?
And salvan ON Pir ,that can legally interpreted as to ADD even Pirs name in total salvat recitation.
The word on pir and for pir was ignorance & folly .MHI replied to the wromgly questioned answer.this serpent is a disaster warning for Admin,who need to be sent early to heavens

Mawla 'Ali Madad.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bz-dZ ... lFGdFMzSkE

The link will be deactivated in a day.

I think I've written enough on this topic and am not willing to write anything any further.