QUL

[shivaathervedi]

QUL means say or tell in Arabic. It is Fi'lil Amr used for order or command. It is the imperative verb. In Quran the word QUL is used 332 times and the word QAAL (QAALA) means 'said' (past tense) is used 529 times.
In surah Ikhlas ( Qul huwallahu ahad ) the word Qul is most important. Allah is commanding Prophet, SAY ALLAH IS AHAD. The command was for Prophet to introduce Allah in pure form. When we recite Du'a, or when surah Ikhlas is recited in Namaz, to whom the reciter is commanding Qul? For example when I am reciting Du'a alone whom I am saying to say Qul huwallahu Ahad!
When we say Qul it is a command in present Real Time. Rasul physically passed away but still we recite in present time in present tense, instead the surah should start with 'Allahu Ahad' and not Qul. The message of 'Allahu Ahad' is Universal and eternal and there is no comparison of Allah to any thing in universe. This is the pure ( KHALIS ) Tawhid which Imam mentioned in the Preamble.

AATI HAI HER SUU HER DUM SADAA E QUL
ZARA ZARA PUKAREY ALLAHU AHAD HER PAL.

[kmaherali]

I think the mention of QUL was to impress upon the people that he (the Prophet) was only conveying what was revealed to him and that he himself was not the author of the lofty concept. If he only said Alluhu Ahad, then some people might have considered that as the message being his own invention. If that were the case then the Prophet would appear as a man of wisdom with his own intelligence and be a threat to those in power or the those recognised to be the wise. That would create additional hazards for him.

In his final revelation - the one we recite in the 3rd Part, Allah tells the Prophet to reveal what was revealed, even though the message about Imamat was unpopular and would pose a danger to his life.

[shivaathervedi]

I think the mention of QUL was to impress upon the people that he (the Prophet) was only conveying what was revealed to him and that he himself was not the author of the lofty concept. If he only said Alluhu Ahad, then some people might have considered that as the message being his own invention. If that were the case then the Prophet would appear as a man of wisdom with his own intelligence and be a threat to those in power or the those recognised to be the wise. That would create additional hazards for him.

In his final revelation - the one we recite in the 3rd Part, Allah tells the Prophet to reveal what was revealed, even though the message about Imamat was unpopular and would pose a danger to his life.

Prophet was on a divine mission by Allah and was under His protection. If Prophet had not said Qul still companions should have trusted him, on contrary infidels did not believed him even if Prophet had explained to them 100 times that I have been asked by Allah to convey the message.

My core question is, when I recite Du'a alone (even you) to whom I am saying to say Qul huwalahu Ahad? The word Qul is in present tense and Quran is for ever then who in reality is authorized to say ( or explain) Qul?

You wrote," In his final revelation Allah tells Prophet to reveal what was revealed." In my opinion that important message was already revealed and mostly Muslims knew the message which we recite in second part of Du'a every day, the Quranic verse 4/59, says; " O ye believe, Obey Allah, Obey Rasul and Ulil Amr..."

[kmaherali]

Prophet was on a divine mission by Allah and was under His protection. If Prophet had not said Qul still companions should have trusted him, on contrary infidels did not believed him even if Prophet had explained to them 100 times that I have been asked by Allah to convey the message...."

I believe this verse was revealed during the early phase of his mission when opposition to his message was immense and hence he needed to be protected. The companions were much fewer than the opponents many. That was the reason for the Hijra.

My core question is, when I recite Du'a alone (even you) to whom I am saying to say Qul huwalahu Ahad? The word Qul is in present tense and Quran is for ever then who in reality is authorized to say ( or explain) Qul?

A prayer is not always or entirely a communication between you and God. Some parts of the prayer are reminders of important concepts and doctrine. For example the verse in part 3 would remind one of the event of Ghadir.

You wrote," In his final revelation Allah tells Prophet to reveal what was revealed." In my opinion that important message was already revealed and mostly Muslims knew the message which we recite in second part of Du'a every day, the Quranic verse 4/59, says; " O ye believe, Obey Allah, Obey Rasul and Ulil Amr..."

If they already knew, how come they did not accept Hazarat Aly at Ghadir?

[shivaathervedi]

Prophet was on a divine mission by Allah and was under His protection. If Prophet had not said Qul still companions should have trusted him, on contrary infidels did not believed him even if Prophet had explained to them 100 times that I have been asked by Allah to convey the message...."

I believe this verse was revealed during the early phase of his mission when opposition to his message was immense and hence he needed to be protected. The companions were much fewer than the opponents many. That was the reason for the Hijra.

My core question is, when I recite Du'a alone (even you) to whom I am saying to say Qul huwalahu Ahad? The word Qul is in present tense and Quran is for ever then who in reality is authorized to say ( or explain) Qul?

A prayer is not always or entirely a communication between you and God. Some parts of the prayer are reminders of important concepts and doctrine. For example the verse in part 3 would remind one of the event of Ghadir.

You wrote," In his final revelation Allah tells Prophet to reveal what was revealed." In my opinion that important message was already revealed and mostly Muslims knew the message which we recite in second part of Du'a every day, the Quranic verse 4/59, says; " O ye believe, Obey Allah, Obey Rasul and Ulil Amr..."

If they already knew, how come they did not accept Hazarat Aly at Ghadir?

Du'a and Salat is same. We can not change Quranic wordings in Du'a.
Du'a is compulsory for Ismailis where as personal prayers are not compulsory. In Du'a basic concepts are defined like, Tahwid, Risalat, Imamat, Amr, Ba'yat, Amanat wa Khayanat. In personal prayer we either request for worldly betterment or spiritual uplift. But the question is about the Qul recited in Du'a. There is other important word in Quran and that is 'YASALUNAK' means 'they are asking you', again this word is also in present tense and is related to Qul. For example Quran says " Wa Yasalunaka unir Ruh, Qul ir Ruhu min Amr i Rabbi" 17/85. In this ayat ArRuh is Al Insanul Kamil, for which in Ginan the word Purush is used. Therefore through this Purush who is ArRuh, intercessor, Imam the Amr e Rabbi flows. He is been asked for interpretations, explanations and Hidayat.

God given order for Ulil Amr existed before Ghadir Khum. Companions of Prophet were aware of that command but knew not who will be. Prophet did not declared the name of his wasi until he received command from God to declare after last pilgrimage and he said," MON KUNTU MOWLA FA HAZA ALIYYUN MOWLA". Ali never cared for worldly Khilafat, he was Amirul Mu'mineen. His guided and is guiding who obeys him, even though today he does not has any worldly country to rule but rulers still ask him for guidance.

[shivaathervedi]

Quran is an integral part of a Muslim. During revelation period Prophet was alive and he explained/ interpreted commands of Allah. Question arose after Prophet who has the right to continue interpretation of of Quranic Ta'limaat, and sure that is the God given right of Ulil Amr according to Quran. Allah addressed Prophet by saying Qul and the same Qul message stands for Ulil Amr, who in our Tariqa is Imam of the time. In Preamble Hazar Imam mentioned," In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet designated and appointed his cousin and son in law Hazrat Mowlana Ali Amirul Mu'mineen to be the First Imam to continue the Ta'weel and Ta'lim of ALLAH'S FINAL MESSAGE and guide the murids.....". Ismailis always look toward Imam to explain/ interpret Quran for Hidayat. It is Hazar Imam who will explain and interpret for example:
Qul Huwallahu Ahad......( Surah Ikhlas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbin Naas.....( Surah Naas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbil Falak.....( Surah Falak )
Qul Ya Aiyuhal Kafirun.....( Surah Kafirun )
Qul Allah shaheedun baini wa bainakum.....( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Inna salati wa nusuki w mahyayi wa mumaati..... ( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Innallah la y'amaru bil fahsha'i.....( Surah A'iraaf )
Qul nazalhu ruhul Qudusu mir Rabbik bil Haqq...( Surah Nahal )
Qul kunu hijaratan ao hadida...( Surah Al Isra'i )
Qul ir Ruhu min Amr i Rabbi.....( Surah Al Isra' )
Qul Rabb zidni Ilma..... ( Surah Taha )
Qul Ati'u Allah wa Ati'ur Rasul..... ( Surah Noor )
There are 332 commands starting with the word Qul without its derivatives.

[shivaathervedi]

YASALUNAKA ANIL KHAMRI WAL MAISAR. QUL FIHIMA ISMUN KABIRA(N)U WA MANAFIU' LIN NASS. WA ISMUHUMA AKBAR MIN NAF'IHIMA. ( AL BAQARAH - 219 ).
They are asking you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, little] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit."

Who in present time to explain and guide to stay away from consuming wine/liquor/beer/ drugs and different forms of gambling. Some can say, look there is no mention of internet gambling or playing lotto or drinking beer in Quran and Ginans, so it is religiously fine to play and consume beer. As God's guidance is continuous without break, there fore he is ULIL AMR/ HAZAR IMAM to give guidance and put moral pressure to stop us from these kind of bad habits.

[shivaathervedi]

There is an interesting and important paragraph in RISALA DAR HAQIQAT I DIN ( TRUE MEANING OF RELIGION ) by Pir Shihabuddin Shah Al Hussaini, I quote:

The Lord of Martyrs (i.e Imam Hussain) says." O God, I have given up my life, and my family out of love for THEE: I came to THEE, dooming my wives and children to remain widows and orphans. I wanted to see the VISION of THY PERFECTION. AND EVEN IF THOU WILT CRUSH ME TO PIECES, MY HEART, FULL OF AFFECTION, WILL NEVER BE ARDENT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR THEE.

To whom higher God Imam Hussain was beseeching?

[Admin]

Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true

that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes",

-said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His

slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not

you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord,

I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy

authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because

people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding

this as impiety (kufr)".


http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html

Risala Dar Haqiqati Din
SHABU'D-DIN SHAH AL-HUSAYNI
TRUE MEANING OF RELIGION

[kmaherali]

The Lord of Martyrs (i.e Imam Hussain) says." O God, I have given up my life, and my family out of love for THEE: I came to THEE, dooming my wives and children to remain widows and orphans. I wanted to see the VISION of THY PERFECTION. AND EVEN IF THOU WILT CRUSH ME TO PIECES, MY HEART, FULL OF AFFECTION, WILL NEVER BE ARDENT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR THEE.

To whom higher God Imam Hussain was beseeching?

We have been through these kind of discussions many times in your many avtars in the past.

The Imam expresses himself according to context and audience. If he is dealing with mankind he will express himself as an ordinary human being because that is their level of understanding.

Hence he reads his speeches when the audience has non-murids and makes Farmans extempore (without reading) when with murids.

This basic wisdom even an Ismaili kid has these days!

[shivaathervedi]

Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true

that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes",

-said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His

slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not

you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord,

I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy

authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because

people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding

this as impiety (kufr)".


http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html

Risala Dar Haqiqati Din
SHABU'D-DIN SHAH AL-HUSAYNI
TRUE MEANING OF RELIGION

Please look at the wordings of Imam Ja'far Sadiq as quoted in the above dialogue; The Imam replied," Do not tell this to anybody......". Question arises did that follower obeyed Imam? When Imam Ja'far did not wanted this to be propagated, how come Pir Shihabuddin mentioned in his treatise when Imam said no. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS," JIYAR SUDHI INSAAN DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY, TIYAR SUDHI EENEY NOOR NU PANI HAATH AAVI SHAKTO NATHI."

[shivaathervedi]

The Lord of Martyrs (i.e Imam Hussain) says." O God, I have given up my life, and my family out of love for THEE: I came to THEE, dooming my wives and children to remain widows and orphans. I wanted to see the VISION of THY PERFECTION. AND EVEN IF THOU WILT CRUSH ME TO PIECES, MY HEART, FULL OF AFFECTION, WILL NEVER BE ARDENT FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR THEE.

To whom higher God Imam Hussain was beseeching?

We have been through these kind of discussions many times in your many avtars in the past.

The Imam expresses himself according to context and audience. If he is dealing with mankind he will express himself as an ordinary human being because that is their level of understanding.

Hence he reads his speeches when the audience has non-murids and makes Farmans extempore (without reading) when with murids.

This basic wisdom even an Ismaili kid has these days!

I laughed at your expression of Avtar for me, " I am as I am."
You wrote," The Imam expresses himself according to context and audience."
My reply is, that while GIRYAH of Imam Hussain only his family members and companions were present. Imam did not uttered these words in front of MIT or oxford university students and intellectuals. That GIRYAH was extempore.
Imam Hussain used the words, I quote," I WANTED TO SEE THE VISION OF THY PERFECTION." Hazar Imam Shah Karim in one of his Farmans has said," PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH."
Let the bright and broad minded readers of this FORUM decide.

[zznoor]

....". Ismailis always look toward Imam to explain/ interpret Quran for Hidayat. It is Hazar Imam who will explain and interpret for example:
Qul Huwallahu Ahad......( Surah Ikhlas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbin Naas.....( Surah Naas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbil Falak.....( Surah Falak )
Qul Ya Aiyuhal Kafirun.....( Surah Kafirun )
Qul Allah shaheedun baini wa bainakum.....( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Inna salati wa nusuki w mahyayi wa mumaati..... ( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Innallah la y'amaru bil fahsha'i.....( Surah A'iraaf )
Qul nazalhu ruhul Qudusu mir Rabbik bil Haqq...( Surah Nahal )
Qul kunu hijaratan ao hadida...( Surah Al Isra'i )
Qul ir Ruhu min Amr i Rabbi.....( Surah Al Isra' )
Qul Rabb zidni Ilma..... ( Surah Taha )
Qul Ati'u Allah wa Ati'ur Rasul..... ( Surah Noor )
There are 332 commands starting with the word Qul without its derivatives.

Brother
How many of these Ayat MHI gave tafseer and/or taweel? Where one can find it!

[kmaherali]

Brother
How many of these Ayat MHI gave tafseer and/or taweel? Where one can find it!

For his murids, they are in the Farmans/Ginans/Qasidas and literature of our Dais in the past.

[kmaherali]

When Imam Ja'far did not wanted this to be propagated, how come Pir Shihabuddin mentioned in his treatise when Imam said no. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS," JIYAR SUDHI INSAAN DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY, TIYAR SUDHI EENEY NOOR NU PANI HAATH AAVI SHAKTO NATHI."

Imam Ja'far did not want it propagated to the outsiders. Pir Shahbudin's work is directed to his murids. If the murids are not taught about these matters by their Pir, who will teach them?
There is a Ginan which states "Noor Veraa Nur Piyo". The noor is available for drinking.

As I have said several times in the past MSMS's Farman was to indicate that the one who has tasted it should not reveal it to others and if he does so he should not be believed.

[kmaherali]

My reply is, that while GIRYAH of Imam Hussain only his family members and companions were present. Imam did not uttered these words in front of MIT or oxford university students and intellectuals. That GIRYAH was extempore.
Imam Hussain used the words, I quote," I WANTED TO SEE THE VISION OF THY PERFECTION." Hazar Imam Shah Karim in one of his Farmans has said," PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH."
Let the bright and broad minded readers of this FORUM decide.

What makes you say that the GIRYAH was uttered to only close family members and not the public at large? Even some members of his family may not be his murids, his wives for example.

[shivaathervedi]

....". Ismailis always look toward Imam to explain/ interpret Quran for Hidayat. It is Hazar Imam who will explain and interpret for example:
Qul Huwallahu Ahad......( Surah Ikhlas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbin Naas.....( Surah Naas )
Qul A'uzu bi Rabbil Falak.....( Surah Falak )
Qul Ya Aiyuhal Kafirun.....( Surah Kafirun )
Qul Allah shaheedun baini wa bainakum.....( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Inna salati wa nusuki w mahyayi wa mumaati..... ( Surah Al An'aam )
Qul Innallah la y'amaru bil fahsha'i.....( Surah A'iraaf )
Qul nazalhu ruhul Qudusu mir Rabbik bil Haqq...( Surah Nahal )
Qul kunu hijaratan ao hadida...( Surah Al Isra'i )
Qul ir Ruhu min Amr i Rabbi.....( Surah Al Isra' )
Qul Rabb zidni Ilma..... ( Surah Taha )
Qul Ati'u Allah wa Ati'ur Rasul..... ( Surah Noor )
There are 332 commands starting with the word Qul without its derivatives.

Brother
How many of these Ayat MHI gave tafseer and/or taweel? Where one can find it!

ASAK

Hazar Imam Shah KArim Al Hussaini will not explain any thing beyond the prescribed rules of Quran. Let me quote first article of Preamble of Ismaili Constitution, I assume you should have read it.

" The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah,' La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah,' the Tawheed there in and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet PBUH through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters."

In this above paragraph he has described the gist of Islamic and Ismaili Tenets. There is affirmation of Shahadah, Tawheed, Prophet Muhammad being as final messenger of Allah, Islam as revealed in Quran and is final message of Allah, the spiritual and temporal matters as mentioned in Quran.
In my opinion this first article covers Surah Ikhlas, Malik, Naas, Al Kafirun.
Ismailis follow Ati'ullah wa ati'ur Rasul wa Ulil Amr minkum. Infact this Ayat is embedded in Du'a which Ismailis recite 3 times a day. For Qul Rubb zidni Ilma, Ismaili Imams have been emphasizing to be educated. This Imam and previous Imams have done a lot to educate masses, examples are, Al Azhar, Ali Garah, medical universities. Almost 400+ schools and colleges are run under guidance of Imam. I think 99% Ismailis all over the world are mostly highly educated. Imam's emphasize and guidance on ethical values which he explains and teaches to his followers is well known. His concept of pluralism is well appreciated through out world leaders. It is a concept of global Ummah of human beings and these are all within the frame work of Quran because all human beings are created by Allah.

[shivaathervedi]

When Imam Ja'far did not wanted this to be propagated, how come Pir Shihabuddin mentioned in his treatise when Imam said no. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS," JIYAR SUDHI INSAAN DUNYA MAA(N) JEEVTO CHHEY, TIYAR SUDHI EENEY NOOR NU PANI HAATH AAVI SHAKTO NATHI."

Imam Ja'far did not want it propagated to the outsiders. Pir Shahbudin's work is directed to his murids. If the murids are not taught about these matters by their Pir, who will teach them?
There is a Ginan which states "Noor Veraa Nur Piyo". The noor is available for drinking.

As I have said several times in the past MSMS's Farman was to indicate that the one who has tasted it should not reveal it to others and if he does so he should not be believed.

The person to whom Imam Ja'far answered was his Murid. Pir can talk such kind of highly spiritual secrets to only followers who have high religious IQ and not write a book and openly propagate when Imam said no.
Please look at the wording of MSMS;" jiyar sudhi insaan duniya maa(n) jeevto chhey..."

[shivaathervedi]

My reply is, that while GIRYAH of Imam Hussain only his family members and companions were present. Imam did not uttered these words in front of MIT or oxford university students and intellectuals. That GIRYAH was extempore.
Imam Hussain used the words, I quote," I WANTED TO SEE THE VISION OF THY PERFECTION." Hazar Imam Shah Karim in one of his Farmans has said," PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH."
Let the bright and broad minded readers of this FORUM decide.

What makes you say that the GIRYAH was uttered to only close family members and not the public at large? Even some members of his family may not be his murids, his wives for example.

Can you name the wives of Imam Hussain who were not his murids?

[kmaherali]

The person to whom Imam Ja'far answered was his Murid. Pir can talk such kind of highly spiritual secrets to only followers who have high religious IQ and not write a book and openly propagate when Imam said no.
Please look at the wording of MSMS;" jiyar sudhi insaan duniya maa(n) jeevto chhey..."

Yes the Imam was talking to his murid not to reveal it to others who are not his murids.

[kmaherali]

Can you name the wives of Imam Hussain who were not his murids?

We have been through this before. Generally the wives of the Imam's are not his murids.

[shivaathervedi]

The person to whom Imam Ja'far answered was his Murid. Pir can talk such kind of highly spiritual secrets to only followers who have high religious IQ and not write a book and openly propagate when Imam said no.
Please look at the wording of MSMS;" jiyar sudhi insaan duniya maa(n) jeevto chhey..."

Yes the Imam was talking to his murid not to reveal it to others who are not his murids.

The words quoted in Risala by Imam Ja'far are," DO NOT TELL THIS TO ANY BODY..." Any body includes followers and non followers.

You did not shed light on the important sentence used by Imam Hussain during that GIRYAH, I quote," I WANTED TO SEE THY VISION OF THY PERFECTION." According to Sutpunthi literature Imam Hussain being as God wanted to see which higher God for perfect vision? Obviously that is Allah.
In my opinion Risala Dar Haqiqat e Din by Pir Shihabuddin is a deviation from Ginanic philosophy.

[shivaathervedi]

Can you name the wives of Imam Hussain who were not his murids?

We have been through this before. Generally the wives of the Imam's are not his murids.

The question was about the names of Imam Hussain's wives which you consider were not his followers. Was BIBI SHERBANU not his follower?
Were these wives Muslims are not? Till Imam Ali Shah there were no divorces recorded in Ismaili History, it started with MSMS and Shah Karim. No where I read that wives of Imams were not Ismaili!! It is a different story that after divorce they quit Islam and Ismailism. Regarding mother of MSMS you wrote, before her last breath she became Ismaili.

[shivaathervedi]

An important deviation in Risala Dar Haqiqat e Din in comparison to Ginanic philosophy regarding Mowla Ali.
Pir Shihabuddin in Risala wrote, The commander of the faithfuls, Ali says:" I WOULD NEVER WORSHIP GOD IF I HAD NOT SEEN HIM." Question arises 'worship of which God Mowla Ali is talking about?
In KIM (Gujrati addition, page # 61) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman, " MOWLA ALI YE FARMAVIOU(N) KE,HU(N) KHUDA NEY JOU(N) NAHI TOU IBADAT PUNN KARU(N) NAHI", Mowla Ali said, I shall not worship God, until I see Him not.
It is interesting to note that in writing of Pir in Risala and Farman of MSMS is same. I think in this context Hazar Imam Shah Karim explained that ' ALI IS FROM ALLAH '.
Any comments by the scholars and contributors of Heritage.

[Admin]

There we go again! Why waste your time?

“Hitler said tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth…we say speak one truth and it smashes a thousand lies” Kwame Ture, civil rights leader.

[shivaathervedi]

There we go again! Why waste your time?

“Hitler said tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes the truth…we say speak one truth and it smashes a thousand lies” Kwame Ture, civil rights leader.

What I quoted is from well known Ismaili books printed by Ismaili institutions. Nothing is from my side.
Kalam e Imam e Mubin ( KIM ) is a compilation of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's Farmans and Risala e Dar Haqiqat e Din was written by Pir Shihabuddin Shah. Do you consider them as FALSE statements? These statements of Imam and Pir have nothing to do with Hitler or Kwame Ture. So far STAR contributors of Heritage are silent!!

[Admin]

It has everything to do when you keep repeating that Hazar Imam said Aliyu Allah means Ali is from Allah. This of course Hazar Imam never said. if you are going to continue lying here, I will close the thread or your account. I hope this is clear.

[kmaherali]

Any comments by the scholars and contributors of Heritage.

I think we have had extensive discussions on this issue. There is diversity of thought in the Jamat with this respect. There are those who consider Ali is from Allah like yourself and there are who consider Ali is Sahi Allah.

Between these 2 extremes you can decide where you belong. The bottomline is that whatever you consider him, it is important to be Farmanbardari.

[shivaathervedi]

Any comments by the scholars and contributors of Heritage.

I think we have had extensive discussions on this issue. There is diversity of thought in the Jamat with this respect. There are those who consider Ali is from Allah like yourself and there are who consider Ali is Sahi Allah.

Between these 2 extremes you can decide where you belong. The bottomline is that whatever you consider him, it is important to be Farmanbardari.

You did not shed light on my 2 quotations of MSMS and Pir Shihabuddin. Let me first quote what you wrote in one of your postings and then go further;

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 13575

Post Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ali_765 wrote:
But there was a time when we Ismailis did pray Namaz...correct?
I am looking for the reasoning of why the Imam decided to change our prayer?

Reply by Kmaherali:
Yes, for sure I know during the Fatimid Period. But times changed and the form of our faith also changed. That is the reason why we have HazarImam to interprete the faith according to times. He decides what is the best, the most appropriate and the most practical form of prayer for a given time.

Ismailis can still go to Masjid and perform Namaz. I know of many Ismailis who do that especially on Fridays to maintain good relations with their neighbours.


Karim you wrote," BUT TIMES CHANGED AND THE FORM OF OUR FAITH ALSO CHANGED."
MSMS in one of his Farmans said," During 70 years of my Imamat I changed Farmans 70 times." In the context of following 2 quotations, what is your opinion?

1. Pir Shihabuddin in Risala wrote, The commander of the faithfuls, Ali says:" I WOULD NEVER WORSHIP GOD IF I HAD NOT SEEN HIM." Question arises 'worship of which God Mowla Ali is talking about?
2. In KIM (Gujrati addition, page # 61) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman, " MOWLA ALI YE FARMAVIOU(N) KE,HU(N) KHUDA NEY JOU(N) NAHI TOU IBADAT PUNN KARU(N) NAHI", Mowla Ali said, I shall not worship God, until I see Him not.
There is resemblance in above both Farmans, one by Imam and other by Pir.

[kmaherali]

1. Pir Shihabuddin in Risala wrote, The commander of the faithfuls, Ali says:" I WOULD NEVER WORSHIP GOD IF I HAD NOT SEEN HIM." Question arises 'worship of which God Mowla Ali is talking about?
2. In KIM (Gujrati addition, page # 61) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman, " MOWLA ALI YE FARMAVIOU(N) KE,HU(N) KHUDA NEY JOU(N) NAHI TOU IBADAT PUNN KARU(N) NAHI", Mowla Ali said, I shall not worship God, until I see Him not.
There is resemblance in above both Farmans, one by Imam and other by Pir.

I think what he mwans is the God that one realizes through spiritual enlightenment or the third eye. When one develops spiritually one aquires the third eye through which God is seen or experienced.
Pir Sadardeen in the Ginan: Sakhi Mahapad Vaat says:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118