Mawlana Sultan Mohamed Shah and others on Meditation

[ismaili103]

You got it. It is not the question of excitement but the TRUTH by Imam. When he says Allah during farman means he is talking about other entity. MSMS had used the word ALLAH many times in farmans, Please consult KIM.

Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah said ,

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself"

( Wadi Jamaat Khaana March 16, 1902)

[shivaathervedi]

You got it. It is not the question of excitement but the TRUTH by Imam. When he says Allah during farman means he is talking about other entity. MSMS had used the word ALLAH many times in farmans, Please consult KIM.

Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah said ,

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself"

( Wadi Jamaat Khaana March 16, 1902)

Mention the name of farman book, page number, publication year and published by which Ismailia Association or private publication.

[shivaathervedi]

You got it. It is not the question of excitement but the TRUTH by Imam. When he says Allah during farman means he is talking about other entity. MSMS had used the word ALLAH many times in farmans, Please consult KIM.

They use Allah either because it is a common expression or because it does not give offence or because they are also the Pirs. We know for sure that they are the Mazhar/Hujjat. We know that they are the Malikinaas hence illahinaas. We know that the Imam was sahi Allah during MSMS's time.

It is a matter of using common sense.

You wrote," I never implied that the Imam had authority for others." My question is if he has no authority on others ( 7+ billions human beings ) means you limited his authority, where as Ismailis believe he is Imam of universe.

From a material point of view he has authority over his murids only, but from the spiritual point of view he has authority over the entire creation.

Just as Allah in the Qur'an has authority over the entire creation regardless of whether you are a believer or not.

What ever I am quoting is common sense. Yes they are Mazhar/Hujjat of Allah. Am I writing any wrong thing? HE WHO IS BORN OUT OF WOMB OF MOTHER CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. IT IS AGAINST SURAH IKHLAS. If you say it is Noor than this Noor is in each particle of universe.
Allah says in Quran clearly that he is the authority over universe. Did Imam declared openly he is authority over universe.
Imam never declared he is RUBBUN NAAS. This is your blind assertion.

[zznoor]

Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah said ,

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself"

( Wadi Jamaat Khaana March 16, 1902)

This he said 114 years ago. There was no internate and it probably was not reported in News Paper. Imagine what would happen to Muslim who make such claim?
If MHI says same thing today he will never be able to come out of his palace and his Murids will be in grat troble.

Brother you are making life difficult for your fellow Ismailis.

Shivaathervedi

HE WHO IS BORN OUT OF WOMB OF MOTHER CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. IT IS AGAINST SURAH IKHLAS.

Kmaherali would say
According to SMS farman hundred year ago "Quran has 2 addition chapters, Usman added some and took out some (Not exact)"
So Sura Ijhlass must be added by Usman.
Just Kidding

[zznoor]

KM

They use Allah either because it is a common expression or because it does not give offence or because they are also the Pirs. We know for sure that they are the Mazhar/Hujjat. We know that they are the Malikinaas hence illahinaas. We know that the Imam was sahi Allah during MSMS's time.

So when will MHI will come out and declare that he is , Malikinass, Allah
, Illahinnas?

Islam does not prevent one from believing in Hazir , Gaib, Hiding or No Imam. your belief should never make Imam Allah himself.

And if you do you are transgracing limit.

[kmaherali]

What ever I am quoting is common sense. Yes they are Mazhar/Hujjat of Allah. Am I writing any wrong thing? HE WHO IS BORN OUT OF WOMB OF MOTHER CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. IT IS AGAINST SURAH IKHLAS. If you say it is Noor than this Noor is in each particle of universe..

How can it be common sense when on the one hand we have said Ali sahi Allah for centuries and then you ask me to read the Farmans of MSMS that seems to you to indicate he is otherwise.
You have to be to be constantly reminded that ours is a batini tradition and that there is a vast difference between the zaher and the batin. Esoteric tradition means that the meaning is for the Jamat.
Ikhlaas is the zaher and Mazhar/Hujjat as expalained by Nasir Khusraw is the batin. We have been through all the references, so don't ask about them.

Allah says in Quran clearly that he is the authority over universe. Did Imam declared openly he is authority over universe.
Imam never declared he is RUBBUN NAAS. This is your blind assertion.

MSMS in his Memoirs which is for the whole world to read has said:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Divine Power = Illahinaas
Divine guidance = Rabbanaas
Divine leadership = Malikinaas

The Qur'an says that Malikinaas is the same as Rabbanaas. MHI in his Farman has said he is Mailikinaas. You are indeed blind without intellect if you cannot make the connection!

[kmaherali]

This he said 114 years ago. There was no internate and it probably was not reported in News Paper. Imagine what would happen to Muslim who make such claim?
If MHI says same thing today he will never be able to come out of his palace and his Murids will be in grat troble.

Brother you are making life difficult for your fellow Ismailis.

Imam as God is a batini concept. Batini concept is restricted to the batini domain; it is not meant for the world but for the Jamat only.

You cannot talk about calculus to a child in nursery school who does not know how to add and subtract. Similarly you cannot talk about Imam being God to the majority who do not have background of mysticism/sufism.

Kmaherali would say
According to SMS farman hundred year ago "Quran has 2 addition chapters, Usman added some and took out some (Not exact)"
So Sura Ijhlass must be added by Usman.
Just Kidding

kmaherali would never deny a verse in the Dua chosen and authorised by the Imam. I accept the ikhlaas as a zaher concept, but of course the Jamat has a batin concept as well restricted for the Jamat.

[kmaherali]

And if you do you are transgracing limit.

There are only limits from the zaher, the batin is limitless!

[kmaherali]

Mention the name of farman book, page number, publication year and published by which Ismailia Association or private publication.

Not all the Farmans are published. This is a well known Farman in the Jamat.

Why is it difficult for you to accept it? Do you think someone made it up providing false information about date and place? Didn't we say Ali sahi Allah in our Dua? What is the difference in the Farman?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to know from members based on this living creature, if one assume it seen as a human being at Zahiri level.
based on his belief and suspicion expressed from day 1.
Is this creature a part of 'us' OR one of 'those'?
I assume 'those' category may be accepting human beings

[shivaathervedi]

What ever I am quoting is common sense. Yes they are Mazhar/Hujjat of Allah. Am I writing any wrong thing? HE WHO IS BORN OUT OF WOMB OF MOTHER CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. IT IS AGAINST SURAH IKHLAS. If you say it is Noor than this Noor is in each particle of universe..

How can it be common sense when on the one hand we have said Ali sahi Allah for centuries and then you ask me to read the Farmans of MSMS that seems to you to indicate he is otherwise.
You have to be to be constantly reminded that ours is a batini tradition and that there is a vast difference between the zaher and the batin. Esoteric tradition means that the meaning is for the Jamat.
Ikhlaas is the zaher and Mazhar/Hujjat as expalained by Nasir Khusraw is the batin. We have been through all the references, so don't ask about them.

Allah says in Quran clearly that he is the authority over universe. Did Imam declared openly he is authority over universe.
Imam never declared he is RUBBUN NAAS. This is your blind assertion.

MSMS in his Memoirs which is for the whole world to read has said:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Divine Power = Illahinaas
Divine guidance = Rabbanaas
Divine leadership = Malikinaas

The Qur'an says that Malikinaas is the same as Rabbanaas. MHI in his Farman has said he is Mailikinaas. You are indeed blind without intellect if you cannot make the connection!

Please be clear in your mind and DO NOT misguide Ismail youth and readers. Hazar Imam HIMSELF NEVER CLAIMED OR UTTERED THE WORDS THAT HE IS RUBBUN NAAS, MALIKUN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS. This is your misguided interpretation and deduction.
What a genius prophesy! some one can interprat with other words or terminologies.
Divine power= Illahin naas
Divine guidance = Rubbin naas
Divine leadership= Malikin naas.
What is the meaning of Rubb, Ilahun, Malik ( though malik is common for persons and particular for God). In Muslim world any Sufi, pir, murshid can claim to be divine, even you can claim to be divine. But that divinity is not equal to Allah.
You wrote," in Zahir he is not God but in Batin he is..." I believe Hazar Imam's Zahir and Batin are same and he do not lie. We are living in zahiri world and not in underground BATINI world. Let me give you an example of zahiri and batini jamaitis. Say, on chaand raat there are 1000 jamaitis in JK. But in morning Ibadat you will find only 10 persons including Mukhi/Kamadia and two volunteers. Means out of 1000 only 10 appear for Ibadat, it is only 1% of batinis and 99% of zahiris.

[shivaathervedi]

Mention the name of farman book, page number, publication year and published by which Ismailia Association or private publication.

Not all the Farmans are published. This is a well known Farman in the Jamat.

Why is it difficult for you to accept it? Do you think someone made it up providing false information about date and place? Didn't we say Ali sahi Allah in our Dua? What is the difference in the Farman?

Just listening from this missionary or that missionary can not validate a twisted farman when there is no written proof.
Karim, beside masters you are a graduate of IIS London ( which I am not) an excellent institution where you were taught modern research tools or how to research. Any person who is quoting must provide proper references ie name of book, page #, year of publication, publishers name and place of publication. IF NOT then that quote or paragraph should be considered NOT VALID. Or a person should be honest enough to mention that is his/her opinion. In past decades many individual Ismailis from India and Pakistan printed/published abridged, twisted, distorted farmans according to their ideologies that is one of the reasons Imam withdrew the rights of publications of farmans even from ITREB.

[kmaherali]

This is your misguided interpretation and deduction.
What a genius prophesy! some one can interprat with other words or terminologies.
Divine power= Illahin naas
Divine guidance = Rubbin naas
Divine leadership= Malikin naas..

I will not argue further as it seems it is pointless to discuss this with the ones without intellect. I will however leave it for each individual to decide for themselves.

What is the meaning of Rubb, Ilahun, Malik ( though malik is common for persons and particular for God). In Muslim world any Sufi, pir, murshid can claim to be divine, even you can claim to be divine. But that divinity is not equal to Allah..

Do you think our forefathers were wrong when for centuries they recited Ali Sahi Allah in Dua?

You wrote," in Zahir he is not God but in Batin he is..." I believe Hazar Imam's Zahir and Batin are same and he do not lie. We are living in zahiri world and not in underground BATINI world. Let me give you an example of zahiri and batini jamaitis. Say, on chaand raat there are 1000 jamaitis in JK. But in morning Ibadat you will find only 10 persons including Mukhi/Kamadia and two volunteers. Means out of 1000 only 10 appear for Ibadat, it is only 1% of batinis and 99% of zahiris.

We are living in both worlds. The zaher and the batin. The zaher is only "the tip of the iceburg". There is a fundamental difference between the exoteric and the esoteric. If that was not the case, the Imam would not make Farmans such as:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me."

"The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form."

" I hope this is clear, and I hope that you will not forget that the meaning is the foundation of our concept of Islam, because our concept is esoteric. If it were exoteric, then it would not matter. But it is not exoteric, it is esoteric. Which means the meaning is for our Jamat; it is for our Tariqah, and this is the foundation. So do not forget this."

(Bombay Nov 7, 1967)

It is not about speaking lies. It is about speaking to the audience according to its capacity.

For example the constitution (the zaher) states that our faith began from the revelation of Islam. We know as Ismailis that this is not true. Our faith has been there since the beginning...

ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11

Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.

Ismailism is not about numbers, it is about quality. MSMS once remarked that Ismailism will survive if there was only ONE ismaili.

[kmaherali]

Any person who is quoting must provide proper references ie name of book, page #, year of publication, publishers name and place of publication. IF NOT then that quote or paragraph should be considered NOT VALID. Or a person should be honest enough to mention that is his/her opinion. In past decades many individual Ismailis from India and Pakistan printed/published abridged, twisted, distorted farmans according to their ideologies that is one of the reasons Imam withdrew the rights of publications of farmans even from ITREB.

If you have seen the KIZ Farman book, then you will know that there are tons of Farmans that are not published officially. Hence if I were to quote a Farman from KIZ it would be considered as invalid by historians. Should we consider all the Farmans in KIZ as invalid?

If we do consider them as invalid, then we are depriving ourselves of immense wisdom and understanding.

[shivaathervedi]

Any person who is quoting must provide proper references ie name of book, page #, year of publication, publishers name and place of publication. IF NOT then that quote or paragraph should be considered NOT VALID. Or a person should be honest enough to mention that is his/her opinion. In past decades many individual Ismailis from India and Pakistan printed/published abridged, twisted, distorted farmans according to their ideologies that is one of the reasons Imam withdrew the rights of publications of farmans even from ITREB.

If you have seen the KIZ Farman book, then you will know that there are tons of Farmans that are not published officially. Hence if I were to quote a Farman from KIZ it would be considered as invalid by historians. Should we consider all the Farmans in KIZ as invalid?

If we do consider them as invalid, then we are depriving ourselves of immense wisdom and understanding.

My question was about that particular farman of MSMS which is not available in any authentic farman book by Association or ITREB, also it is not mentioned in KIZ. By the way KIZ is not a complete book of farmans made by Shah Karim, many are missing.

[shivaathervedi]

This is your misguided interpretation and deduction.
What a genius prophesy! some one can interprat with other words or terminologies.
Divine power= Illahin naas
Divine guidance = Rubbin naas
Divine leadership= Malikin naas..

I will not argue further as it seems it is pointless to discuss this with the ones without intellect. I will however leave it for each individual to decide for themselves.

What is the meaning of Rubb, Ilahun, Malik ( though malik is common for persons and particular for God). In Muslim world any Sufi, pir, murshid can claim to be divine, even you can claim to be divine. But that divinity is not equal to Allah..

Do you think our forefathers were wrong when for centuries they recited Ali Sahi Allah in Dua?

You wrote," in Zahir he is not God but in Batin he is..." I believe Hazar Imam's Zahir and Batin are same and he do not lie. We are living in zahiri world and not in underground BATINI world. Let me give you an example of zahiri and batini jamaitis. Say, on chaand raat there are 1000 jamaitis in JK. But in morning Ibadat you will find only 10 persons including Mukhi/Kamadia and two volunteers. Means out of 1000 only 10 appear for Ibadat, it is only 1% of batinis and 99% of zahiris.

We are living in both worlds. The zaher and the batin. The zaher is only "the tip of the iceburg". There is a fundamental difference between the exoteric and the esoteric. If that was not the case, the Imam would not make Farmans such as:

"I would like in the years ahead to feel that if I ask you, it may be difficult for you in the English language, but if I ask you what is the difference between Esoteric faith and Exoteric faith, you should be able to tell Me."

"The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form."

" I hope this is clear, and I hope that you will not forget that the meaning is the foundation of our concept of Islam, because our concept is esoteric. If it were exoteric, then it would not matter. But it is not exoteric, it is esoteric. Which means the meaning is for our Jamat; it is for our Tariqah, and this is the foundation. So do not forget this."

(Bombay Nov 7, 1967)

It is not about speaking lies. It is about speaking to the audience according to its capacity.

For example the constitution (the zaher) states that our faith began from the revelation of Islam. We know as Ismailis that this is not true. Our faith has been there since the beginning...

ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11

Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.

Ismailism is not about numbers, it is about quality. MSMS once remarked that Ismailism will survive if there was only ONE ismaili.

May be intellect is bestowed only upon few selected members of Heritage.

Follow the farman of the Imam of time, follow the Kalima paak you recite after Du'a. You are still living in 15th century, it was Hari then now it is ALIYYULLAH. Believe me I have not translated meaning of that phrase which means Ali is from Allah in Du'a books. It is up to you believe it or not.

What do you mean by "MEANING" in farman you quoted.

Islam is from very beginning, it is a natural religion, it was not stamped as SUTPUNTHY ISMAILI DHARAM. It was and it is the same religion for all.

In your opinion what qualities an Ismaili carry? There was a time press was talking about 20 million Ismailis, then reduced to 15 millions, now is 12 millions which is also not a correct figure, where these rest 8 millions all of sudden disappeared. Were they disqualified? They mostly left because of Hindu Tariqa amalgamated in pure Ismaili Tariqa. Make your ZAHIR correct then BATIN will follow and keep your Batin in your Batin's Batin.

[Admin]

No, they left because they could not understand between shariat and haqiqat, between zahir and batin. They left to become Sunni or Ithnashri. Nothing to do with Satpanth which means Sirat a Mustaqueem and which is the true Islam (Ismailism)

[kmaherali]

May be intellect is bestowed only upon few selected members of Heritage.

The intellect is bestowed upon most of humanity except for a few who cannot accept the common rules of logic such as:

If A = B = C and the Imam indicates that he is A, it implies that he is also B and C.

Most people with intellect will accept this logic regardless of their faith.

Follow the farman of the Imam of time, follow the Kalima paak you recite after Du'a. You are still living in 15th century, it was Hari then now it is ALIYYULLAH. Believe me I have not translated meaning of that phrase which means Ali is from Allah in Du'a books. It is up to you believe it or not..

We know that AliUllah does not mean Ali from Allah technically. We know that the Imam has indicated that he is the Malikinaas hence Illahibnaas. We know that he is the Mazhar. We know that he has indicated that exoteric faith is different than esoteric faith. So follow all these Farmans instead of clinging to one questionable one which you cannot verify as a farman to the Jamat.

What do you mean by "MEANING" in farman you quoted.

Meaning for the Jamat and not for others according to the Farman. It is very clear.

Islam is from very beginning, it is a natural religion, it was not stamped as SUTPUNTHY ISMAILI DHARAM. It was and it is the same religion for all.

According to the Constitution Islam was revealed to Holy Prophet. Satpanth has been there since the beginning.

In your opinion what qualities an Ismaili carry? There was a time press was talking about 20 million Ismailis, then reduced to 15 millions, now is 12 millions which is also not a correct figure, where these rest 8 millions all of sudden disappeared. Were they disqualified? They mostly left because of Hindu Tariqa amalgamated in pure Ismaili Tariqa. Make your ZAHIR correct then BATIN will follow and keep your Batin in your Batin's Batin.

The quality of an Ismaili is the one who is Farmanbardari. It is simple. Ismailism is not about numbers. Only the Imam knows who his murids are and at various times he has given figures which we must accept.

[shivaathervedi]

No, they left because they could not understand between shariat and haqiqat, between zahir and batin. They left to become Sunni or Ithnashri. Nothing to do with Satpanth which means Sirat a Mustaqueem and which is the true Islam (Ismailism)

Ground realities are different then what you are advocating. As you wrote," they become Sunni or Ishna'shiri", means Sunni or Ishna'shiri ideology is strong in comparison to Satpunthi ideology that's why they left in thousands.

[shivaathervedi]

May be intellect is bestowed only upon few selected members of Heritage.

The intellect is bestowed upon most of humanity except for a few who cannot accept the common rules of logic such as:

If A = B = C and the Imam indicates that he is A, it implies that he is also B and C.

Most people with intellect will accept this logic regardless of their faith.

Follow the farman of the Imam of time, follow the Kalima paak you recite after Du'a. You are still living in 15th century, it was Hari then now it is ALIYYULLAH. Believe me I have not translated meaning of that phrase which means Ali is from Allah in Du'a books. It is up to you believe it or not..

We know that AliUllah does not mean Ali from Allah technically. We know that the Imam has indicated that he is the Malikinaas hence Illahibnaas. We know that he is the Mazhar. We know that he has indicated that exoteric faith is different than esoteric faith. So follow all these Farmans instead of clinging to one questionable one which you cannot verify as a farman to the Jamat.

What do you mean by "MEANING" in farman you quoted.

Meaning for the Jamat and not for others according to the Farman. It is very clear.

Islam is from very beginning, it is a natural religion, it was not stamped as SUTPUNTHY ISMAILI DHARAM. It was and it is the same religion for all.

According to the Constitution Islam was revealed to Holy Prophet. Satpanth has been there since the beginning.

In your opinion what qualities an Ismaili carry? There was a time press was talking about 20 million Ismailis, then reduced to 15 millions, now is 12 millions which is also not a correct figure, where these rest 8 millions all of sudden disappeared. Were they disqualified? They mostly left because of Hindu Tariqa amalgamated in pure Ismaili Tariqa. Make your ZAHIR correct then BATIN will follow and keep your Batin in your Batin's Batin.

The quality of an Ismaili is the one who is Farmanbardari. It is simple. Ismailism is not about numbers. Only the Imam knows who his murids are and at various times he has given figures which we must accept.

What logic has to do with reality.
Let us examine your logic of A=B=C.
Are the following examples equal according to your logical mind.
Circle= Rectangle=Traingle
Milk= Liquor=Gangajal
Blind person=Short sighted=20/20 vision
Rat= Donkey=Elephant
May be according to your Batini logic a rat is equal to an elephant. This kind of logic has doomed Ismaili Ideology.

Imam said MEANING is for Ismailis, then for God sake every Ismaili should learn MEANING OF DU'A and follow the meaning done by ITREB on orders of Imam.

Imam NEVER uttered from his mouth that he is Rubbun Naas or Malikin Naas. Please refrain from writing this. You are giving ammo in hands of enemies of Ismailism. There are repercussions. You are advised to keep your batin in your batin's batin. I have nothing to do with your personal faith. Do not try to become Sutpunthi SHAHEED.

Can you mention the numbers of Ismaili murids quoted by Imam lately?

You wrote," The quality of an Ismaili is farmanbardari", fine then every Ismaili should obey the farmans of PRESENT IMAM. OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, OBEY IMAM OF THE TIME.

[kmaherali]

Ground realities are different then what you are advocating. As you wrote," they become Sunni or Ishna'shiri", means Sunni or Ishna'shiri ideology is strong in comparison to Satpunthi ideology that's why they left in thousands.

Ismailism in its essence is difficult. At its heart is the notion of the Imam being the Mazhar which most people find difficult to understand. The Imam himself has indicated that mysticism in its essence is difficult. MSMS in his Memoirs has said:

"Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood."

Elsewhere in his Memoirs the Imam explains the unchangeable nature of faith and people being free to leave and join:

"What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to "reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as other have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions-a small group in Karachi and in India-pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith; that faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Ismailism is not an ideology, it is a theology and by its very nature it is elitist and it will not attract the majority. Hence numbers don't matter. Even for those who accepted Hazarat Ali at Ghadir , the majority ended up following a wrong chain and hence believe in the hidden Imam.

[kmaherali]

What logic has to do with reality.
Let us examine your logic of A=B=C.
Are the following examples equal according to your logical mind.
Circle= Rectangle=Traingle
Milk= Liquor=Gangajal
Blind person=Short sighted=20/20 vision
Rat= Donkey=Elephant
May be according to your Batini logic a rat is equal to an elephant. This kind of logic has doomed Ismaili Ideology..

Logic has everything to do with reality. Hazar Imam has said that Islam is a faith of logic.

I said IF A = B = C and not just A = B = C.

Hence a triangle is NOT circle and NOT a rectangle. You just don't say that a triangle = a circle arbitrarily. You have to provide a basis for saying that, otherwise it is not a reality.

Rat is NOT a donkey. It is not a reality.

BUT according to the Qur'an Malikinaas = Illahinass = Rabbanaas - that is the reality if you are a Muslim who believes in the Qur'an.

Hence if the Imam says that he is Malikinaas then it means that he is also Illahinaas according to the Qur'an.

Ordinarily Malikinaas is not Illahinaas but according to the Qur'an it is. Hence the Qur'an is the basis of saying that Malikinaas = Illahinaas.

Imam said MEANING is for Ismailis, then for God sake every Ismaili should learn MEANING OF DU'A and follow the meaning done by ITREB on orders of Imam.

There are layers of meaning in an esoteric tradition. Not just one. A Syrian Ismaili who knows Arabic well will never interpret Aliullah as Ali from Allah.

Imam NEVER uttered from his mouth that he is Rubbun Naas or Malikin Naas. Please refrain from writing this. You are giving ammo in hands of enemies of Ismailism. There are repercussions. You are advised to keep your batin in your batin's batin. I have nothing to do with your personal faith. Do not try to become Sutpunthi SHAHEED..

As I said the Imam never quoted it and I am not saying this in a public place. This is a batini forum where we discuss the meaning of the Qur'an ayat as per the Farman. Imam has told us to apply our intellects to understand our faith. Based on the intellect the Imam is Rabanaas and Illahinaas although he has not said it.

You wrote," The quality of an Ismaili is farmanbardari", fine then every Ismaili should obey the farmans of PRESENT IMAM. OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, OBEY IMAM OF THE TIME.

That is what I am telling you to do. Use your intellect to derive illahinaas from malikinaas. Don't be blind and remember ours is an esoteric faith.[/b]

[shivaathervedi]

Ground realities are different then what you are advocating. As you wrote," they become Sunni or Ishna'shiri", means Sunni or Ishna'shiri ideology is strong in comparison to Satpunthi ideology that's why they left in thousands.

Ismailism in its essence is difficult. At its heart is the notion of the Imam being the Mazhar which most people find difficult to understand. The Imam himself has indicated that mysticism in its essence is difficult. MSMS in his Memoirs has said:

"Often persecuted and oppressed, the faith of my ancestors was never destroyed; at times it flourished as in the epoch of the Fatimite Khalifs, at times it was obscure and little understood."

Elsewhere in his Memoirs the Imam explains the unchangeable nature of faith and people being free to leave and join:

"What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to "reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as other have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions-a small group in Karachi and in India-pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith; that faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Ismailism is not an ideology, it is a theology and by its very nature it is elitist and it will not attract the majority. Hence numbers don't matter. Even for those who accepted Hazarat Ali at Ghadir , the majority ended up following a wrong chain and hence believe in the hidden Imam.

Good you keep covering other members also.
The gramophone needle is sticking at Mazhar not going further; I asked you before Mazhar of WHO? Obviously that is Allah. Two different entities.
The Ismaili Tariqa and Tenets are easy to follow but some old and consevative missionaries and intellectuals have made it difficult and have created confusion. Ismailism is easy; According to Du'a, obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Imam of the time.
Your quotations from Memoirs are not farmans to rigidly follow. Memoirs was written for Non Ismailis and particularly for Westerners. The reformers also included some family members of MSMS.
You wrote," Ismailism is not an ideology." Ideology is formed because of Tenets, for example like Preamble.

[kmaherali]

Good you keep covering other members also.
The gramophone needle is sticking at Mazhar not going further; I asked you before Mazhar of WHO? Obviously that is Allah. Two different entities.
The Ismaili Tariqa and Tenets are easy to follow but some old and consevative missionaries and intellectuals have made it difficult and have created confusion. Ismailism is easy; According to Du'a, obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Imam of the time.
Your quotations from Memoirs are not farmans to rigidly follow. Memoirs was written for Non Ismailis and particularly for Westerners. The reformers also included some family members of MSMS.
You wrote," Ismailism is not an ideology." Ideology is formed because of Tenets, for example like Preamble.

In this forum no one is covering anyone. If you feel you have to say something about a particular post, then say it.

There is no need to go further once you know that the Imam is the Mazhar. In English if one says that a person has qualities of a teacher, it is the same as same as saying that a person is a teacher. There is no difference.

In the same manner according to Nasir Khusraw, the Mazhar of God is the same as God.

We have been through this many times. There is no value in mentioning again.

Memoirs is meant for the whole world which includes us. Therefore we accept whatever is in the Memoirs unless it is different than the Farman in which case we follow the Farman.

Have you come across a Farman which says something different than what I have quoted froml the Memoirs?

[shivaathervedi]

What logic has to do with reality.
Let us examine your logic of A=B=C.
Are the following examples equal according to your logical mind.
Circle= Rectangle=Traingle
Milk= Liquor=Gangajal
Blind person=Short sighted=20/20 vision
Rat= Donkey=Elephant
May be according to your Batini logic a rat is equal to an elephant. This kind of logic has doomed Ismaili Ideology..

Logic has everything to do with reality. Hazar Imam has said that Islam is a faith of logic.

I said IF A = B = C and not just A = B = C.

Hence a triangle is NOT circle and NOT a rectangle. You just don't say that a triangle = a circle arbitrarily. You have to provide a basis for saying that, otherwise it is not a reality.

Rat is NOT a donkey. It is not a reality.

BUT according to the Qur'an Malikinaas = Illahinass = Rabbanaas - that is the reality if you are a Muslim who believes in the Qur'an.

Hence if the Imam says that he is Malikinaas then it means that he is also Illahinaas according to the Qur'an.

Ordinarily Malikinaas is not Illahinaas but according to the Qur'an it is. Hence the Qur'an is the basis of saying that Malikinaas = Illahinaas.

Imam said MEANING is for Ismailis, then for God sake every Ismaili should learn MEANING OF DU'A and follow the meaning done by ITREB on orders of Imam.

There are layers of meaning in an esoteric tradition. Not just one. A Syrian Ismaili who knows Arabic well will never interpret Aliullah as Ali from Allah.

Imam NEVER uttered from his mouth that he is Rubbun Naas or Malikin Naas. Please refrain from writing this. You are giving ammo in hands of enemies of Ismailism. There are repercussions. You are advised to keep your batin in your batin's batin. I have nothing to do with your personal faith. Do not try to become Sutpunthi SHAHEED..

As I said the Imam never quoted it and I am not saying this in a public place. This is a batini forum where we discuss the meaning of the Qur'an ayat as per the Farman. Imam has told us to apply our intellects to understand our faith. Based on the intellect the Imam is Rabanaas and Illahinaas although he has not said it.

You wrote," The quality of an Ismaili is farmanbardari", fine then every Ismaili should obey the farmans of PRESENT IMAM. OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, OBEY IMAM OF THE TIME.

That is what I am telling you to do. Use your intellect to derive illahinaas from malikinaas. Don't be blind and remember ours is an esoteric faith.[/b]

You wrote in bold letters IF A=B=C. When you say IF, BUT, SUPPOSE, PROBABLY means statement is suspicious. You wrote, " rat is not a donkey, it is not a reality." Same way two entities are not equal, one who authorize and other who is authorized on His behalf.
I challenged you before and my challenge exists; Please quote the farman in which IMAM HIMSELF UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS RUBBUN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. Do not put your words in Imam's mouth. Keep your deducing and inducing analogy in your mind's locker, it is enough now. You are taking advantage of word batin and ta'weel, and pushing community in BLASPHEMOUS realm. Is Imam scared of public he can't disclose his identity?
Almost 90% of Ismails do not know meaning of Du'a that's why Imam keep pushing his murids to learn meaning of Du'a so that their minds should be clear about Allah, Rasul and Imam. When majority do not know meaning of Du'a how come they will grasp LAYERS AND LAYERS OF MEANING.
Meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a book is 'Ali is from Allah", do you accept it or not? If you say technically it is wrong then as you wrote it should be 'Ali of Allah'. Let us take your meaning. For example: 'KITABULLAH' MEANS KITAB OF ALLAH, HERE KITAB IT SELF IS NOT ALLAH. TAKE OTHER EXAMPLE: 'RASULLULAH' MEANS RASUL OF ALLAH, AGAIN RASUL IS NOT ALLAH HIMSELF BUT HE IS MESSENGER OF ALLAH, SAME WAY 'ALIYULLAH' MEANS ALI OF ALLAH. NOW AS KITAB OR RASUL ARE NOT ALLAH SAME WAY ALI IS NOT ALLAH. THESE ARE TWO ENTITIES.

[shivaathervedi]

Good you keep covering other members also.
The gramophone needle is sticking at Mazhar not going further; I asked you before Mazhar of WHO? Obviously that is Allah. Two different entities.
The Ismaili Tariqa and Tenets are easy to follow but some old and consevative missionaries and intellectuals have made it difficult and have created confusion. Ismailism is easy; According to Du'a, obey Allah, obey Rasul, obey Imam of the time.
Your quotations from Memoirs are not farmans to rigidly follow. Memoirs was written for Non Ismailis and particularly for Westerners. The reformers also included some family members of MSMS.
You wrote," Ismailism is not an ideology." Ideology is formed because of Tenets, for example like Preamble.

In this forum no one is covering anyone. If you feel you have to say something about a particular post, then say it.

There is no need to go further once you know that the Imam is the Mazhar. In English if one says that a person has qualities of a teacher, it is the same as same as saying that a person is a teacher. There is no difference.

In the same manner according to Nasir Khusraw, the Mazhar of God is the same as God.

We have been through this many times. There is no value in mentioning again.

Memoirs is meant for the whole world which includes us. Therefore we accept whatever is in the Memoirs unless it is different than the Farman in which case we follow the Farman.

Have you come across a Farman which says something different than what I have quoted froml the Memoirs?

Few times when I replied or asked members some hard questions, they did not replied but you covered them. It is a good thing I appreciated, why are you disturbed.
You wrote," If a person has qualities of teacher it is the same as saying person is a teacher." Question arises who will decide the person is a qualified teacher. Then one has to think about authority. For example you have vast knowledge but you are not called a missionary because you are not authorized and Mukhi will not allow to deliver waiz.
You keep giving reference of Nasir Khusraw through translations by Ivanow and not quoting complete paragraph even in English. As I know I have not read that nasir has written that Hujjat is same as Allah. Ivanow's mostly translations are abridged and not complete, he is a respected person and pioneer of Ismaili studies.
In Memoirs there is mention of beautiful women, cabaret, Mu'tta Nikah, I do not want to go in details or he wrote, He had vision of.... and felt immense happiness.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.

Ta'wil of word 'Ism a'zam' (Supreme Name of God):

"Imâm Jafar as-Sâdiq has said "Allah has concealed one name, i.e., the supreme Name and He has 360 names." (Lughât, Sîn, p. 175). The supreme Name or the great secret is in two forms: as a word and as a person. As a word, it is "al-hayyu'l-qayyûm" (the Everliving, the Everlasting) (2:255; 3:2) and as a person it is the True Guide, i.e., the Prophet and the Imam of the time (see Wajh, p. 124-129)" [Source: Tawil 64: A Thousand Wisdoms]

let us go word by word and then full lines seprately point bt point.

1.Allah is one of the 350 names.
2.It has concealed (hidden) one name the supreme name(none is above that entity).
that is again repeated as great secret.
3.what can be the name possible in the word and name Allah?
4. that secret name (ALI) has two forms.
as a word that is NOOR as hayul qayum.
and biological seen form(many ayats in quran describing physical features.)
5.the seen biological form ( where NOOR is embeded as a name)
the prophet and the imam of the time.
( which he was and now our ALI/jaffer sadiq/ is MHI of today.
so from jumpimg on definition of noor to body inspite of 1000 farman
of our tariqa is of zahir and batin.
these quality explaination and vocabulaory can be of none other than
Ali+lah=Allah.
educated mind reasoning from above:
1. 1+0=1
2. god has given name but hinted and masked his identity in parables.
3. the is noor( subtle light of divine intellect) which has no equal partners
nor any one gave birth to it.
3. as sunlight is sourced to the Sun.water is sourced to clouds or lakes/etc.
4.same way intellect CAN ONLY sourced to a human body with thinking mind.

in above farman Imam
has explained the word/name .status of Allah.
and what it actually is.
believe it or deny it.
SHAQUE ALI PE HAI KASOTI TUMHARI.

[ismaili103]

I challenged you before and my challenge exists; Please quote the farman in which IMAM HIMSELF UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS RUBBUN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. Do not put your words in Imam's mouth.

A person has to use his or her intellect to understand such Farmans, but you are lacking from that.

Second Ali U Allah niether translated as Ali is from Allah nor Ali of Allah.
Ali U Allah is directly translated as Ali is Allah. Go and translate it using any good language translator.

And please do not ask any Arab Muslim that whats the translation of Ali U Allah, because he will cut your head because Ali U Allah = Ali is Allah.

[ismaili103]

Direct translation of these English phrase into Arabic,

ALI IS FROM ALLAH = ALI HU MIN UND ALLAH

ALI OF ALLAH = ALI MIN ALLAH

ALI IS ALLAH = ALI U ALLAH

[shivaathervedi]

I challenged you before and my challenge exists; Please quote the farman in which IMAM HIMSELF UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS RUBBUN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. Do not put your words in Imam's mouth.

A person has to use his or her intellect to understand such Farmans, but you are lacking from that.

Second Ali U Allah niether translated as Ali is from Allah nor Ali of Allah.
Ali U Allah is directly translated as Ali is Allah. Go and translate it using any good language translator.

And please do not ask any Arab Muslim that whats the translation of Ali U Allah, because he will cut your head because Ali U Allah = Ali is Allah.

EEK KAHANI KHATUM TOU DUJA QISA SHURU' HUWA;
Hardly myself and Kmaherali settled on this issue to disagree, now you have started the same rhetoric. Were you sleeping when discussion was on for weeks? You are duplicating Kmaherali's wordings.
There is big difference in false intellect and BLASPHEMOUS FATWA.
Produce the farman if you intellectuals have in which Imam directly uttered the wordings that he is Rubbun Naas, Ilahin Naas and Malikin Naas. Imam will never use such wordings for himself. Why you people are disrespecting and degrading the MUNSUB of Imamah. Readers of this forum are not insane or stupid. Learn the meaning of Du'a.
I do not need language translator because I know the language. You need to learn Arabic and then argue.
You need not to worry about my head, but you have to worry about your head. Arabs know what Aliyuallah means.