first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are NOORULLAH. That Noor was in the beginning therefore it is first and will be around here till dooms day therefore it is last.
By the way a mother is also a creator and a father sustainer.

The following verse from Ginan Moman Cheet vennee describes how Hazarat Ali create the other members of Panj tan paak including Prophet Muhammad.

to muneevar bhaaee aapannaa maathaa mubaarak nu(n) mahammad mustapha kareaa,
ane mawlaa alee te pote alee avataar;
aa seenaa mubaarak nee te hazarat bibi phaatamaa,
ane nur-chasham be tenaa hazarat emaam hasan va husen deel tthaar re...............................................................10

Brother believer, He made Muhammad Mustafa from His holy forehead, and the Lord Ali was Himself manifested as Ali. He created the blessed Lady Fatima from His holy breast, and the light of His two eyes were the blessed Imaams Hasan and Husain, who bring comfort to the heart.

Hence Hazarat Ali pre-existed Prophet Muhammad and they cannot be considered equal.

[kmaherali]

The communication from secretariat of Hazar Imam to life Magazine was meant for all, Ismailis as well as non Ismailis and non Muslims. Now compare this message or communication with FIRST ARTICLE OF PREAMBLE IT IS SAME. Imam has explained the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism to follow..

In Ismailism there are two kinds of interpretation; the zaher and the batin as per Farman below.

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion."(Damascus Syria, May 8, 1980)

Therefore what we communicate to others through Life Magazine or the constitution is the zaher. That which we understand within the Tariqah is the batin.

The interpretation of faith which we articulate to others cannot be the same as the interpretation for ourselves. There is a vast difference between an Ismaili who attends JK regularly listens to the Ginans, Farmans waez and a non-Ismaili who does not attend JK. Hence what we tell non-Ismailis will differ than what we understand ourselves. This is the nature of the esoteric tradition. The meaning is for the Jamat.

NO WHERE IN THE FARMAN MADE AT MUMBAI ON 9TH NOVEMBER, 1967, IMAM HIMSELF HAD UTTERED THE WORDS THAT HE IS MALIKIN NAAS. Please don't misguide jamaits and youth. During that visit of India on many occasions Imam has used the phrase INSHA'ALLAH. I have checked in KIZ, in Precious Gems and in a Urdu translation by ITREB. Imam has not allowed any murid to twist, manipulate, induce or deduce farman for corrupt ideology. Imam's farmans are in simple English in comparison to public lectures. AQL E JUZ IS NOT ABOVE AQL E KUL..

I will quote the Farman again:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

Doesn't the above Farman tell us that the Imam is Malikinaas? Or do you think (if you have intellect) the Imam was very happy with a lie?

As per the Moscow Farman, our faith is not of rote, it is of intellect. Farmans are not of one-level meaning. We have to reflect, study and meditate upon them - we have to apply our intellects.

Below are Farmans:

"This Farman is complex, I would like you to listen to its translation carefully and think about it in terms of what it means for the future of your children, your grandchildren, here in India and elsewhere."(Nov 22, 1992, Mumbai)

"This is a complex Farman. Not many of you perhaps will feel comfortable with having understood the Farman in its completeness today. Listen to it, I hope the translation will be good, think about it, discuss it with your children, discuss it with your grandchildren, if they are old enough to think in these terms, and prepare them to see the way ahead, wisely and properly, because there is much opportunity, there are also perhaps risks. (Bombay, 23 Nov 1992)

"Just like you read Ginans, read My Farmans. The way you seek out the meaning of Ginans, the same way, seek out the meaning of My Farmans. My Farmans themselves are the Ginans.(Dar es Salaam, 29th Sep 1899)

You wrote it is not a public statement from your side to call Imam Ilahin Naas. But you already did. Your blasphemous statement is all over on internet
it is offensive and there can be repercussions.

Please provide all the links besides this forum where the Farman has been mentioned all over the internet.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.

the word tawhid itself is only achieved only AFTER AFFIRMING of Ali as Allah.( many life cycles need to qualify for it)
the word encompasses the status of ALI for believers.
MHI tell to jamat follow the farmans and not the Constitution it articles are read out daily in JK.
constitution need intellect to understand to uphold it and presentation to various governments to get diplomatic status and other things.

Allah is nothing but one of the 350 names( not an entity at all) of God.
it is nevertheless a popular brand name.

[ismaili103]

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are NOORULLAH. That Noor was in the beginning therefore it is first and will be around here till dooms day therefore it is last.
By the way a mother is also a creator and a father sustainer.

Yes Hazir Imam is our spritual mother and father, Imam not only create us and this Universe but he created 18000 universes and everything from nothing.

There is no such thing as Noor of Allah, Allah is himself Noor, your statement is blasphemous.

BTW I just translate the sentence " Ali is from Allah" and the arabic word for it is " Ali Ho Min Und Allah"

Then I translate " Ali is Allah " and arabic word for it come is " Ali u Allah"

[ismaili103]

Allah is nothing but one of the 350 names( not an entity at all) of God.
it is nevertheless a popular brand name.

Word Allah is actually originated from the name of the most powerfull idol of Kaaba. And 1.6 billion muslims believes it came from nowhere and first appears in Quran, all I can say to them is lack of knowledge and ignorance which is leading them to terrorism and extremism.

[shivaathervedi]

Stop threatening us. We Ismailis, we are not weak as you shariatis. We have the Imam-e-Zaman with us.

A clown may be part of a circus but no person would take him seriously.

There is no way the debate between Shariatis and Batinis will be resolved here on this Forum. It has been going on since centuries. Let is be.

Is this post directed to me? If there are zahiri clowns then there must be batini clowns also as you believe every zahir has batin. Smile. It is blessing from Allah.

[shivaathervedi]

Allah is nothing but one of the 350 names( not an entity at all) of God.
it is nevertheless a popular brand name.

Word Allah is actually originated from the name of the most powerfull idol of Kaaba. And 1.6 billion muslims believes it came from nowhere and first appears in Quran, all I can say to them is lack of knowledge and ignorance which is leading them to terrorism and extremism.

It was not Allah but al ilah which Nuseri breaks up as Ali+ la. Read the history and Bible. Jews use the word Alluhum which is equal to ALLAHUMA YOU RECITE IN DU'A MANY TIMES MEANS YA ALLH.

[shivaathervedi]

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are NOORULLAH. That Noor was in the beginning therefore it is first and will be around here till dooms day therefore it is last.
By the way a mother is also a creator and a father sustainer.

Yes Hazir Imam is our spritual mother and father, Imam not only create us and this Universe but he created 18000 universes and everything from nothing.

There is no such thing as Noor of Allah, Allah is himself Noor, your statement is blasphemous.

BTW I just translate the sentence " Ali is from Allah" and the arabic word for it is " Ali Ho Min Und Allah"

Then I translate " Ali is Allah " and arabic word for it come is " Ali u Allah"

Understand the meaning of below part of ginan. Nirinjin created two branches one is Noor e Mustafa and other is Noor e Murtaza. You know well who are MUSTAFA and MURTAZA.

OHANG NIRINJIN EEK WARKHASHJ KITA
UNN KU DHALI DOEEY JO DITA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR ALI MURTAZA.

The official meaning of ALIYULLAH given by ITREB is " ALI IS FROM ALLAH".
Keep in mind I have not translated it. It is from the crucial and important institution of Hazar Imam.

[shivaathervedi]

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are NOORULLAH. That Noor was in the beginning therefore it is first and will be around here till dooms day therefore it is last.
By the way a mother is also a creator and a father sustainer.

The following verse from Ginan Moman Cheet vennee describes how Hazarat Ali create the other members of Panj tan paak including Prophet Muhammad.

to muneevar bhaaee aapannaa maathaa mubaarak nu(n) mahammad mustapha kareaa,
ane mawlaa alee te pote alee avataar;
aa seenaa mubaarak nee te hazarat bibi phaatamaa,
ane nur-chasham be tenaa hazarat emaam hasan va husen deel tthaar re...............................................................10

Brother believer, He made Muhammad Mustafa from His holy forehead, and the Lord Ali was Himself manifested as Ali. He created the blessed Lady Fatima from His holy breast, and the light of His two eyes were the blessed Imaams Hasan and Husain, who bring comfort to the heart.

Hence Hazarat Ali pre-existed Prophet Muhammad and they cannot be considered equal.

There is an Urdu phrase 'SATHHIYA JANA', that is what happening to you.
You wrote," Hence Hazrat Ali pre-existed Prophet Muhammad and they cannot be equal." Again this is your wrong ideology. Let me remind you, ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID. OR PROPHET CALLED ALI 'NAFS E RASUL.
Do you deny these Hadiths, there are many more. You quoted a part of ginan let me give you my version of ginanic part.

OHANG NIRINJIN EEK WARKHASHJ KITA
UNN KU DHALI DOEEY JO DITA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR ALI MURTAZA.

Nirinjin created two branches of his Noor, one is Muhammad Mustafa and other is Ali Murtaza. This part of ginan is a proof that Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are equal and not above or below.

[shivaathervedi]

The communication from secretariat of Hazar Imam to life Magazine was meant for all, Ismailis as well as non Ismailis and non Muslims. Now compare this message or communication with FIRST ARTICLE OF PREAMBLE IT IS SAME. Imam has explained the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism to follow..

In Ismailism there are two kinds of interpretation; the zaher and the batin as per Farman below.

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion."(Damascus Syria, May 8, 1980)

Therefore what we communicate to others through Life Magazine or the constitution is the zaher. That which we understand within the Tariqah is the batin.

The interpretation of faith which we articulate to others cannot be the same as the interpretation for ourselves. There is a vast difference between an Ismaili who attends JK regularly listens to the Ginans, Farmans waez and a non-Ismaili who does not attend JK. Hence what we tell non-Ismailis will differ than what we understand ourselves. This is the nature of the esoteric tradition. The meaning is for the Jamat.

NO WHERE IN THE FARMAN MADE AT MUMBAI ON 9TH NOVEMBER, 1967, IMAM HIMSELF HAD UTTERED THE WORDS THAT HE IS MALIKIN NAAS. Please don't misguide jamaits and youth. During that visit of India on many occasions Imam has used the phrase INSHA'ALLAH. I have checked in KIZ, in Precious Gems and in a Urdu translation by ITREB. Imam has not allowed any murid to twist, manipulate, induce or deduce farman for corrupt ideology. Imam's farmans are in simple English in comparison to public lectures. AQL E JUZ IS NOT ABOVE AQL E KUL..

I will quote the Farman again:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

Doesn't the above Farman tell us that the Imam is Malikinaas? Or do you think (if you have intellect) the Imam was very happy with a lie?

As per the Moscow Farman, our faith is not of rote, it is of intellect. Farmans are not of one-level meaning. We have to reflect, study and meditate upon them - we have to apply our intellects.

Below are Farmans:

"This Farman is complex, I would like you to listen to its translation carefully and think about it in terms of what it means for the future of your children, your grandchildren, here in India and elsewhere."(Nov 22, 1992, Mumbai)

"This is a complex Farman. Not many of you perhaps will feel comfortable with having understood the Farman in its completeness today. Listen to it, I hope the translation will be good, think about it, discuss it with your children, discuss it with your grandchildren, if they are old enough to think in these terms, and prepare them to see the way ahead, wisely and properly, because there is much opportunity, there are also perhaps risks. (Bombay, 23 Nov 1992)

"Just like you read Ginans, read My Farmans. The way you seek out the meaning of Ginans, the same way, seek out the meaning of My Farmans. My Farmans themselves are the Ginans.(Dar es Salaam, 29th Sep 1899)

You wrote it is not a public statement from your side to call Imam Ilahin Naas. But you already did. Your blasphemous statement is all over on internet
it is offensive and there can be repercussions.

Please provide all the links besides this forum where the Farman has been mentioned all over the internet.

In Mumbai farman of Nov 1967, nowhere Imam declared himself as RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MAILKIN NAAS. DID HE? You did not address my question that during that same India visit Imam at time of didar used the phrases INSH'ALLAH many times. Which Allah was that to whom he was addressing. Imam by decree stopped Institutions and individuals to print/publish framans for mostly people took it for granted and because of their back grounds and knowledge misinterpreted farmans and giving the blasphemous statements.
Life magazine communication or message is the same which Imam has explained in the first article of PREAMBLE and that is for Zahirs and so called ma'rifaties. In Du'a we are taught to obey Allah, obey Rasul and obey Imam. These are 3 different entities whom we are ordered to obey. What batin has to do with them. In the first part of Du'a we pray," YA ALLAH SHOWER YOUR BLESSINGS ON MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA AND ALI MURTAZA AND ON PIOUS IMAMS..........AND AT THE END OF PARAGRAPH WE SAY AND SHOWER BLESSINGS ON OUR PRESENT IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI. TO WHICH ALLAH ARE WE PRAYING FOR BLESSINGS OF THESE HOLY ENTITIES. Please every Ismaili should and must follow meaning of Du'a.

[Admin]

Yes Imam has 2 audiences. This is what he said. Not everyone understood why Imam says he has 2 kind of audiences.

[kmaherali]

Do you deny these Hadiths, there are many more. You quoted a part of ginan let me give you my version of ginanic part..

Our tradition places more importance on the Ginans than hadiths. Yes the Imam being the Mazhar of the Essence is also the Mazhar of the Noor. Hence they have the same Noor. But the Imam is also the Mazhar of the Dhat in addition to being the Mazhar of the Noor.

OHANG NIRINJIN EEK WARKHASHJ KITA
UNN KU DHALI DOEEY JO DITA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR ALI MURTAZA.

Nirinjin created two branches of his Noor, one is Muhammad Mustafa and other is Ali Murtaza. This part of ginan is a proof that Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are equal and not above or below.

Nirinjan is Hazart Ali according to Ginan verse:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

[kmaherali]

In Mumbai farman of Nov 1967, nowhere Imam declared himself as RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MAILKIN NAAS. DID HE?.

Yes based on the answer given by the spiritual child and the Imam being very happy with the answer. In an esoteric tradition the Imam expects his murids to extract the meaning and discuss his Farmans. Our tradition is not of rote, you are expected to use your intellect. There is never either yes or no.

You did not address my question that during that same India visit Imam at time of didar used the phrases INSH'ALLAH many times. Which Allah was that to whom he was addressing. .

Inshallah is a common expression and in common situations Imam uses common expressions. He is also the Pir and the Pir prays to Allah/Imam.

Life magazine communication or message is the same which Imam has explained in the first article of PREAMBLE and that is for Zahirs and so called ma'rifaties. In Du'a we are taught to obey Allah, obey Rasul and obey Imam. These are 3 different entities whom we are ordered to obey. What batin has to do with them. In the first part of Du'a we pray," YA ALLAH SHOWER YOUR BLESSINGS ON MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA AND ALI MURTAZA AND ON PIOUS IMAMS..........AND AT THE END OF PARAGRAPH WE SAY AND SHOWER BLESSINGS ON OUR PRESENT IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI. TO WHICH ALLAH ARE WE PRAYING FOR BLESSINGS OF THESE HOLY ENTITIES. Please every Ismaili should and must follow meaning of Du'a.

You did not read my last message about the difference between the Zaheri and batini interpretations. I also quoted a Farman which you have ignored!

[ismaili103]

It was not Allah but al ilah which Nuseri breaks up as Ali+ la. Read the history and Bible. Jews use the word Alluhum which is equal to ALLAHUMA YOU RECITE IN DU'A MANY TIMES MEANS YA ALLH.

Al ilah was the name of most powerful idol of kaaba from which word Allah is originated.

Jews God's name is YHWH( Yahawah ), and in bible whenever the word God is mentioned the word Most High is attached with it i.e " God the most high" hebrew word for it is " El Elyon " means " Ali the most high ".

[shivaathervedi]

It was not Allah but al ilah which Nuseri breaks up as Ali+ la. Read the history and Bible. Jews use the word Alluhum which is equal to ALLAHUMA YOU RECITE IN DU'A MANY TIMES MEANS YA ALLH.

Al ilah was the name of most powerful idol of kaaba from which word Allah is originated.

Jews God's name is YHWH( Yahawah ), and in bible whenever the word God is mentioned the word Most High is attached with it i.e " God the most high" hebrew word for it is " El Elyon " means " Ali the most high ".

I suggest to you and members of this forum to read the book named," A HISTORY OF GOD" written by KAREN ARMSTRONG.
Through out history the name of God has been changing, different languages have different names. Karen wrote on page 12;
The two earliest biblical authors, whose work is found in Genesis and Exodus were probably writing during the eight century, though some would give them an earlier date. One is known as "J" because he calls his God " YAHWEH", the other "E" since he prefers to use more formal divine title "ELOHIM."
Read history of Arabs prior Islam. They called the main idol as al ilah but behind that there was a concept of almighty God in whom they believed. It is in same way Christians pray in front statue of Christ and Hindus in front idols of Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha and so on as did forefathers of Satpunthis in their times. I wander why Nuseri adopted the name of an Arab idol al ilah and compared it with Ali, his baby formula is ali+lah ( al ilah).

[shivaathervedi]

Yes Imam has 2 audiences. This is what he said. Not everyone understood why Imam says he has 2 kind of audiences.

The debate is related to Imam and his followers. Do not mingle other audience.
During didar or making farman or giving Hidayet he always uses simple English and easy phrases. When during didar he says ISHA'ALLAH OR HAMDULILLAH OR FREQUENT USE OF WORD ALLAH, IS ADDRESSED TO HIS FOLLOWERS.

[shivaathervedi]

Do you deny these Hadiths, there are many more. You quoted a part of ginan let me give you my version of ginanic part..

Our tradition places more importance on the Ginans than hadiths. Yes the Imam being the Mazhar of the Essence is also the Mazhar of the Noor. Hence they have the same Noor. But the Imam is also the Mazhar of the Dhat in addition to being the Mazhar of the Noor.

OHANG NIRINJIN EEK WARKHASHJ KITA
UNN KU DHALI DOEEY JO DITA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR ALI MURTAZA.

Nirinjin created two branches of his Noor, one is Muhammad Mustafa and other is Ali Murtaza. This part of ginan is a proof that Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are equal and not above or below.

Nirinjan is Hazart Ali according to Ginan verse:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

Mazhar of essence; Essence of who?
Mazhar of Noor; Noor of who?
I quoted authentic Hadiths found in Ismaili literature and are not fabricated by me.
You quoted ginan and I quoted ginan who will decide which one is correct.
Did Nirinjin somersault from heaven and hang on a tree on planet earth and split his Noor in two branches! Please note in that particular part the words MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA ARE USED.

[shivaathervedi]

In Mumbai farman of Nov 1967, nowhere Imam declared himself as RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MAILKIN NAAS. DID HE?.

Yes based on the answer given by the spiritual child and the Imam being very happy with the answer. In an esoteric tradition the Imam expects his murids to extract the meaning and discuss his Farmans. Our tradition is not of rote, you are expected to use your intellect. There is never either yes or no.

You did not address my question that during that same India visit Imam at time of didar used the phrases INSH'ALLAH many times. Which Allah was that to whom he was addressing. .

Inshallah is a common expression and in common situations Imam uses common expressions. He is also the Pir and the Pir prays to Allah/Imam.

Life magazine communication or message is the same which Imam has explained in the first article of PREAMBLE and that is for Zahirs and so called ma'rifaties. In Du'a we are taught to obey Allah, obey Rasul and obey Imam. These are 3 different entities whom we are ordered to obey. What batin has to do with them. In the first part of Du'a we pray," YA ALLAH SHOWER YOUR BLESSINGS ON MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA AND ALI MURTAZA AND ON PIOUS IMAMS..........AND AT THE END OF PARAGRAPH WE SAY AND SHOWER BLESSINGS ON OUR PRESENT IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI. TO WHICH ALLAH ARE WE PRAYING FOR BLESSINGS OF THESE HOLY ENTITIES. Please every Ismaili should and must follow meaning of Du'a.

You did not read my last message about the difference between the Zaheri and batini interpretations. I also quoted a Farman which you have ignored!

Meaning of Du'a is apparent and clear, if some one wants to twist it that is up to him. In India people believe monkey is god, some say cow is god, some say tree some say snake and some say Amitab Bhachan is god and some say Rajnikaant is god, Christians say Christ is god. I can't stop them.
I knew your reply will be that INSHA'ALLAH WAS SAID IN PIR'S CAPACITY AND NOT AS IMAM. KIS KO BEWAQUF BANATEY HO JI. When Imam uses INSHA'ALLH did he say," hey jamaito, keep in mind, I am using INSHA'ALLAH as a pir and not as an Imam, be careful."
In a gathering, Imam asked the question and a religious center student gave answer. If you go through the religious curriculum of that time, surah naas was in course. Student replied and Imam encouraged him. On many occasions students recite Quran, Ginans and delivered waizes and Imam always praised them.
My question is vital did Imam in any of his farman during didar claimed he is RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS?

[ismaili103]

I suggest to you and members of this forum to read the book named," A HISTORY OF GOD" written by KAREN ARMSTRONG.
Through out history the name of God has been changing, different languages have different names. Karen wrote on page 12;
The two earliest biblical authors, whose work is found in Genesis and Exodus were probably writing during the eight century, though some would give them an earlier date. One is known as "J" because he calls his God " YAHWEH", the other "E" since he prefers to use more formal divine title "ELOHIM."
Read history of Arabs prior Islam. They called the main idol as al ilah but behind that there was a concept of almighty God in whom they believed. It is in same way Christians pray in front statue of Christ and Hindus in front idols of Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha and so on as did forefathers of Satpunthis in their times. I wander why Nuseri adopted the name of an Arab idol al ilah and compared it with Ali, his baby formula is ali+lah ( al ilah).

Word Allah is only 1400 years old.

And every ismaili is satpanthi and Ismailism is known as satpanth, straight translation of SATPANTH in arabic is SIRAT AL MUSTAQEEM.

[kmaherali]

Mazhar of essence; Essence of who?
Mazhar of Noor; Noor of who?.

It is becoming a bit childish. We have addressed this issue in all of your avtars since Mazhar. As I have mentioned many times, Nasir Khusraw has said in his Kalame Pir that the meaning of Hujjat is that Hujjat is equal to the object. Hence Mazhar of the Divine Essence is equal to the Divine Essence. Essentially from a functional point of view there is no difference.

In one of his printed Farmans the Imam said:

"You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for His spiritual children, His Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction."

The Noor refers to Imam's Noor.

I quoted authentic Hadiths found in Ismaili literature and are not fabricated by me.
You quoted ginan and I quoted ginan who will decide which one is correct.
Did Nirinjin somersault from heaven and hang on a tree on planet earth and split his Noor in two branches! Please note in that particular part the words MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA ARE USED.

I did not indicate that the hadith was fabricated. There is no contradiction in the verses of the Ginans quoted. One Ginan elaborates the other. You mentioned that Niranjan created the Noor of Muhamad and Ali. The other Ginan mentioned that the Nirinjan is Ali.

Your comment about somersault is senseless. Ginans are allegorical, but perhaps man without intellect will not understand it!

[kmaherali]

Meaning of Du'a is apparent and clear, if some one wants to twist it that is up to him. In India people believe monkey is god, some say cow is god, some say tree some say snake and some say Amitab Bhachan is god and some say Rajnikaant is god, Christians say Christ is god. I can't stop them.?

Dua has multiple meanings just like the Qur'an. There is the basic meaning applicable to all including non-Ismailis which does not give offence. Then there is an inner meaning for the Jamat in an esoteric tradition.

We don't call any Tom Dick or Harry God. We call the Imam God because he is the Mazhar of the Essence since the beginning. Obdience and allegiance to him is eqaul to obedience and allegiance to Allah according to the Qur'an.

I knew your reply will be that INSHA'ALLAH WAS SAID IN PIR'S CAPACITY AND NOT AS IMAM. KIS KO BEWAQUF BANATEY HO JI. When Imam uses INSHA'ALLH did he say," hey jamaito, keep in mind, I am using INSHA'ALLAH as a pir and not as an Imam, be careful."

If you knew than why ask over and over again? Imam does not need to clarify which roles he performs as the Pir and which roles he performs as the Imam. It is understood by the Jamat and those with intellects.

In a gathering, Imam asked the question and a religious center student gave answer. If you go through the religious curriculum of that time, surah naas was in course. Student replied and Imam encouraged him. On many occasions students recite Quran, Ginans and delivered waizes and Imam always praised them.

Now you are saying that the Imam would praise someone even if he was ignorant and told falsehood! That is not the way the Imam works. He is always seeking truth in all matters as per Farman below.

"Since the 11th of July 1957, all My aims and ambitions have been devoted to help and guide My spiritual children in spiritual and worldly matters. The happiness which I have gained from My work, the encouragement to carry more and more responsibility and undertake more and more projects, the continuous search for truth in all matters, all this has been due to you."(Karachi, Pakistan, Sunday, December 13, 1964, (Salgirah Darbar)

My question is vital did Imam in any of his farman during didar claimed he is RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS?

The answer is simple. To those with intellects it is yes. To those without intellects it is no.
The Shariatis and Haqiqatis are worlds apart.

[shivaathervedi]

I suggest to you and members of this forum to read the book named," A HISTORY OF GOD" written by KAREN ARMSTRONG.
Through out history the name of God has been changing, different languages have different names. Karen wrote on page 12;
The two earliest biblical authors, whose work is found in Genesis and Exodus were probably writing during the eight century, though some would give them an earlier date. One is known as "J" because he calls his God " YAHWEH", the other "E" since he prefers to use more formal divine title "ELOHIM."
Read history of Arabs prior Islam. They called the main idol as al ilah but behind that there was a concept of almighty God in whom they believed. It is in same way Christians pray in front statue of Christ and Hindus in front idols of Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha and so on as did forefathers of Satpunthis in their times. I wander why Nuseri adopted the name of an Arab idol al ilah and compared it with Ali, his baby formula is ali+lah ( al ilah).

Word Allah is only 1400 years old.

And every ismaili is satpanthi and Ismailism is known as satpanth, straight translation of SATPANTH in arabic is SIRAT AL MUSTAQEEM.

When straight translation of Satpunth in Arabic is Siratul Mustaqeem, then translation of BAGHWAN in Arabic is ALLAH. Smile, it is blessing of Allah as Imam said.

[ismaili103]

When straight translation of Satpunth in Arabic is Siratul Mustaqeem, then translation of BAGHWAN in Arabic is ALLAH. Smile, it is blessing of Allah as Imam said

Niether I know the meaning of Allah nor the meaning of Bhagwan. I only know the meaning of Ali which is the the most high.

Sirat al mustaqeem ( True path/,Right Path )
Sat( True ) Panth ( Path )

[shivaathervedi]

Meaning of Du'a is apparent and clear, if some one wants to twist it that is up to him. In India people believe monkey is god, some say cow is god, some say tree some say snake and some say Amitab Bhachan is god and some say Rajnikaant is god, Christians say Christ is god. I can't stop them.?

Dua has multiple meanings just like the Qur'an. There is the basic meaning applicable to all including non-Ismailis which does not give offence. Then there is an inner meaning for the Jamat in an esoteric tradition.

We don't call any Tom Dick or Harry God. We call the Imam God because he is the Mazhar of the Essence since the beginning. Obdience and allegiance to him is eqaul to obedience and allegiance to Allah according to the Qur'an.

I knew your reply will be that INSHA'ALLAH WAS SAID IN PIR'S CAPACITY AND NOT AS IMAM. KIS KO BEWAQUF BANATEY HO JI. When Imam uses INSHA'ALLH did he say," hey jamaito, keep in mind, I am using INSHA'ALLAH as a pir and not as an Imam, be careful."

If you knew than why ask over and over again? Imam does not need to clarify which roles he performs as the Pir and which roles he performs as the Imam. It is understood by the Jamat and those with intellects.

In a gathering, Imam asked the question and a religious center student gave answer. If you go through the religious curriculum of that time, surah naas was in course. Student replied and Imam encouraged him. On many occasions students recite Quran, Ginans and delivered waizes and Imam always praised them.

Now you are saying that the Imam would praise someone even if he was ignorant and told falsehood! That is not the way the Imam works. He is always seeking truth in all matters as per Farman below.

"Since the 11th of July 1957, all My aims and ambitions have been devoted to help and guide My spiritual children in spiritual and worldly matters. The happiness which I have gained from My work, the encouragement to carry more and more responsibility and undertake more and more projects, the continuous search for truth in all matters, all this has been due to you."(Karachi, Pakistan, Sunday, December 13, 1964, (Salgirah Darbar)

My question is vital did Imam in any of his farman during didar claimed he is RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS?

The answer is simple. To those with intellects it is yes. To those without intellects it is no.
The Shariatis and Haqiqatis are worlds apart.

Du'a is composed of Quranic surahs, ayats, phrases, and Hadiths. An Ismaili has to follow the translation given by ITREEB on orders of Imam. Ismailis do not follow the twisted meanings by any Tom, Dick, and Harry. Du'a is for Ismailis to recite, non Ismailis has nothing to do with it. What is the inner meaning of ALHAMDU LILLAHI RUBBIL AALAMEEN OR ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

You wrote, "Obedience and allegiance to him is obedience and allegiance to Allah according to Quran." This is what I have been insisting from beginning "Obey Allah, Obey Rasul, Obey Ullil Amr which is Imam of the time". These are three different entities. Though this particular ayat of Surah Fateh which you quoted is related to Rasulullah. Therefore through Rasulillah the tradition of Allegiance is carried forward through Mowla ALI and all our Imams, that does not mean Rasul was Allah or Imams are. Imam is intercessor, Wasilah, spiritual Link between Allah and humans.

It is ridiculous to say Imam use the phrases like INSH'ALLAH, ALHUMDULILIAH OR CALLING NAME OF ALLAH AS PIR DURIN DIDAR OR MAKING FARMAN AND NOT AS IMAM. I don't know from where you got this type of philosophy. Please read KHUTUBAAT of Mowla Ali, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far Sadik. ( may be these are antiques for you).

Yes Imam guides us in spiritual and worldly matters, but he also said his 99% times is consumed in worldly matters to solve problems of murids.

To enter in house of Haqiqat one has to pass through door of Shariyat. What you think 7,9.12 years or even many senior are all intellectuals. They even can't recite Du'a correctly or understand meaning. What you expect from them. Many Ismaili intellectuals have different levels of inner meanings or hidden meanings which they dug up from no where. Which one we accept as real?

[shivaathervedi]

When straight translation of Satpunth in Arabic is Siratul Mustaqeem, then translation of BAGHWAN in Arabic is ALLAH. Smile, it is blessing of Allah as Imam said

Niether I know the meaning of Allah nor the meaning of Bhagwan. I only know the meaning of Ali which is the the most high.

Sirat al mustaqeem ( True path/,Right Path )
Sat( True ) Panth ( Path )

JAI MATA JI KI;

Ali is on of the attribute name of Allah. In Quran it is used 8 times.

[ismaili103]

What is the inner meaning of ALHAMDU LILLAHI RUBBIL AALAMEEN OR ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

It has big inner meaning,

In old we were prostrating infront of Imam and now we are prostrating infront of Allah, those who use there intellects know well that Imam change it because of the circumtances but meaning didn't changed. Imam or Allah both are same Ali sahi Allah.

[ismaili103]

When straight translation of Satpunth in Arabic is Siratul Mustaqeem, then translation of BAGHWAN in Arabic is ALLAH. Smile, it is blessing of Allah as Imam said

Niether I know the meaning of Allah nor the meaning of Bhagwan. I only know the meaning of Ali which is the the most high.

Sirat al mustaqeem ( True path/,Right Path )
Sat( True ) Panth ( Path )

JAI MATA JI KI;

Ali is on of the attribute name of Allah. In Quran it is used 8 times.

Mowla Ali Madad,

And my Pir tell us that " HE IS FORM LESS, NAME LESS AND ATTRIBUTE LESS"

And yes Allah is one of the name of KAABA KA BUTH ( JUST A PATHAR KI MURTI ).

Might be your Allah is too small that he bound in only 99 attributes, my creator Hazir Imam is beyond infnite Allah and he is attribute less.

[ismaili103]

BTW mazhar, congratulations for the opening of your new id on ismaili.net named "AJohn786" . It goes for party.

[zznoor]

be your Allah is too small that he bound in only 99 attributes, my creator Hazir Imam is beyond infnite Allah and he is attribute less.

Take a look at your Zahari Imam
He was born to human mother and father
He is a human and bigoted children
He married twice and divorced both of them
He gets sick, he breaks bones
According to reports he goes to sleep and wakes up at 6 AM
Like previous Imam he will die when his maker decide his time is up
This are not attribute of beyond infinite Allah

Be little careful. There is something like Kufr and Shirk. On the top of that you are on internet not in Jamatkhana or in secrete majlis.

[zznoor]

Ali is one of attribute of Allah

This is what happens when you do now know difference between name Ali and Allah's attribute al-Ali.

Meaning of Ali
Ali is a direct Quranic name for boys that means “high”, “exalted”, “superb”, “sublime”. The word Ali is used in many places in the Quran and it forms one of the names of Allah when it is prefixed with an al, as in al-Ali. It is a common name among Muslims out of love for Ali bin Abi Talib, cousin of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah upon him and his family and companions.