shivaathervedi wrote:BUT how will you explain the account of IRON WALL and CHHA MAAS NEY CHHA DIN in the ginan DUNIYA CHALATRA DEKH KAR?
In the same manner as explained in Anant Akhado. It is the same phenomenum, except that Anant Akhado gives a detailed account.
The THEME of the ginan by Pir Sadardin 'DUNIYA CHALATRA DEKH KAR' is in varani of ginan, and that is;
MOMIN BHAI KAR LIO KHUDA SEY PIAR and that is through Bandagi and discipline of Bandagi.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Mostly Ismaili history is obscure. Usually we don't have accounts of wives or intimate family affairs. Mostly times Imams married 4/5/7/12 times. You have quoted 2 examples and wrote," In both cases the wives were from the progeny of the Imam". But in both cases wives were daughters of pirs according to Satpanthi tradition. In Satpanthi tradition Prophet is consider as a pir and not an Imam, therefore bibi Fatima should be consider as a daughter of Pir. In other example of 45th Imam, his wife was daughter of his uncle Pir Mirza Muhammad Baqir..
All the Pirs are the descendants of the Imams:
ejee aal imaam kee peer karee jaanno
jethee bhav saagar tame chhutto ek jeeyo....................15
O momins: Regard the 'Peers' as the progeny of the Imaams.
It is due to the faith in this authority that you will overcome
the difficulties of crossing over the ocean of material existence.
Shiva: But Prophet Muhammad is not descendant of Imam!!
Saraswati is the Hindu goddess of knowledge, music, arts, wisdom and learning. She is a part of the trinity (Tridevi) of Saraswati, Lakshmi and Parvati. All the three forms help the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva to create, maintain and regenerate-recycle the Universe respectively.
The earliest known mention of Saraswati as a goddess is in Rigveda. She has remained significant as a goddess from the Vedic period through modern times of Hindu traditions. Some Hindus celebrate the festival of Vasant Panchami (the fifth day of spring) in her honour, and mark the day by helping young children learn how to write alphabets on that day. The Goddess is also revered by believers of the Jain religion of west and central India, as well as some Buddhist sects.
Saraswati who is revered as a goddess of knowledge, music and arts is also found outside Nepal and India, such as in Japan, Vietnam, Bali (Indonesia) and Myanmar.
Saraswati meaning "one who leads to essence of self knowledge". It is also a Sanskrit composite word of surasa-vati which means "one with plenty of water".
The word Saraswati appears both as a reference to a river and as a significant deity in the Rigveda.
Saraswati is known by many names in ancient Hindu literature. Some examples of synonyms for Saraswati include Brahmani (goddess of sciences), Brahmi (from being wife of Brahma), Bharadi (goddess of history), Vani and Vachi (both referring to the flow of music/song, melodious speech, eloquent speaking respectively), Varnesvari (goddess of letters).
Saraswati is found in almost every major ancient and medieval Indian literature between 1000 BC to 1500 AD. In Hindu tradition, she has retained her significance as a goddess from the Vedic age up to the present day. In Shanti Parva of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, Saraswati is called the mother of the Vedas, and later as the celestial creative symphony who appeared when Brahma created the universe. In Book 2 of Taittiriya Brahmana, she is called the mother of eloquent speech and melodious music. Saraswati is the active energy and power of Brahma.
The goddess Saraswati is often depicted as a beautiful woman dressed in pure white, often seated on a white lotus, which symbolizes light, knowledge and truth. She not only embodies knowledge but also the experience of the highest reality. Her iconography is typically in white themes from dress to flowers to swan – the colour symbolizing Sattwa Guna or purity, discrimination for true knowledge, insight and wisdom.She is generally shown to have four arms, but sometimes just two. When shown with four hands, those hands symbolically mirror her husband Brahma's four heads, representing manas (mind, sense), buddhi (intellect, reasoning), citta (imagination, creativity) and ahamkara (self consciousness, ego). Brahma represents the abstract, she action and reality.
The four hands hold items with symbolic meaning — a pustaka (book or script), a mala (rosary, garland), a water pot and a musical instrument (lute or vina). The book she holds symbolizes the Vedas representing the universal, divine, eternal, and true knowledge as well as all forms of learning. A mala of crystals, representing the power of meditation, inner reflection and spirituality. A pot of water represents the purifying power to separate right from wrong, the clean from the unclean, and essence from the inessential. In some texts, the pot of water is symbolism for soma - the drink that liberates and leads to knowledge. The musical instrument, typically a veena, represents all creative arts and sciences, and her holding it symbolizes expressing knowledge that creates harmony. Saraswati is also associated with anurāga, the love for and rhythm of music, which represents all emotions and feelings expressed in speech or music.
A hansa / hans or swan is often located next to her feet. In Hindu mythology, hans is a sacred bird, which if offered a mixture of milk and water, is said to be able to drink the milk alone. It thus symbolizes the ability to discriminate between good and evil, essence from outward show and the eternal from the evanescent. Due to her association with the swan, Saraswati is also referred to as Hansvahini, which means "she who has a hansa / hans as her vehicle". The swan is also a symbolism for spiritual perfection, transcendence and moksha.
Sometimes a citramekhala (also called mayura, peacock) is shown beside the goddess. The peacock symbolizes colorful splendor, celebration of dance, and as the devourer of snakes, the alchemical ability to transmute the serpent poison of self into the radiant plumage of enlightenment.She is usually depicted near a flowing river or other body of water, which depiction may constitute a reference to her early history as a river goddess.
In some regions of India, such as Vindhya, Odisha, West Bengal and Assam, as well as east Nepal, Saraswati is part of the Devi Mahatmya mythology, in the trinity (Tridevi) of Mahakali, Mahalakshmi and Mahasaraswati. This is one of many different Hindu legends that attempt to explain how Hindu trinity of gods (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) and goddesses (Saraswati, Lakshmi and Parvati) came into being. In West Bengal, Saraswati is worshipped on Vasant Panchami, a Hindu festival celebrated every year on the 5th day in the Hindu calendar month of Magha (about February). In Kerala and Tamil Nadu, the last three days of the Navaratri festival, i.e., Ashtami, Navami, and Dashami, are celebrated as Sarasvati Puja.
I am producing 2 lists of 68 pavitra tiraths of Hindus. One by a Sikh writer and other by a Hindu writer for information.
The list of the 68 places considered the most important for Hindus to go on pilgrimage: These holy places are mentioned in the book named Katha Updesh Saagar by Giani
Bhagat Singh, published in March 1951.
1. Kashmir Mandal
2. Katakh, aka Kataas
3. Jalandar Peeth
4. Kurkhetar, dist. Karnaal
5. Mayapuri, dist. Sahaaranpur
6. Dev Paryag
7. Gangotri
8. Kedarnath
9. Badrinath
10. Nand Paryag
11. Kanav Paryag
12. Aad Badri
13. Sambhal vill. Muradabad
14. Brij Bhoomi, dist. Mathura, in Uttar Pradesh
15. Nemkhaarn Sutki gadhi
16. Bithoor
17. Paryag Raj
18. Chitar Koot
19. Ayodhia Puri
20. Pulhaasram, vill. Rirri
21. Mukt Nath
22. Damodar Kund
23. Nepal Pasupat
24. Janak Pur
25. Kashi Banaras
26. Gomti
27. Bisva mitar ka yogyasthan, vill. Bakhtsar
28. Bhirgoo's aashram where Ganga and Sarjoo rivers meet at Bhojpur
29. where Son Bhadar meets Ganga river at Serpur
30. where Gandki and Ganga rivers meet in Har Harkhetar at Patna Sahib
31. Gaya
32. Kaamaakhi, aka Kaamkhya in Kavroo Des
33. Ganga Saagar Kapal Rikhi's sthaan (place)
34. Betrani river in Gaya at Janjhpur
35. Jagan Nath Puri Bhuvneshvar Shiv
36. Aadi Koorm where Kach became avtaar
37. Ramtirath, dist. Amritsar
38. Padamnabh
39. Sri Nar Singhin Singhachal
40. Gaya's padam sthaan at Padgaya
41. Sapat Saagar, vill. Selangi, where becoming (?) sat (7?) dhara Godavri meets in Saagar (?)
42. Bashisht Saagar
43. Krishna Saagar milaap, near Machli Bandar
44. Panna Nar Singh Aadha (the Devta who drinks sharbat)
45. Bhundeer Mandar
46. Sri Rangdik in Chol Des
47. Setu Bandh Rameshvar
48. in Pand Des approximately 18 places which are Bhagvaan's sthaans
49. Malyavaar (Maalaabaar) Des
50. Kiskandha (Baali's rajdhani)
51. Pandarpur, Bitthal's asthaan (this is mentioned in Bhagat Namdev's bani where he refers to Krishan as Beetthal as Bhagat Pundrik did, SGGS ji page 874 & 485)
52. Panchbati where Ram Chandar chops (?) the nose of Soopankha(n) (?)
53. Taryambak Jyoti
54. where Taapi river meets in the saagar (dunno what that is) at Dumas Gram
55. where Narbada river meets the ocean at vill. Labhaaraa.
56. Parbhaas Khetar
57. Sudama Puri (Bhagat Sudama's place)
58. Madhav Pur
59. where Gomti river meets the ocean (where Duvaarika drowned)
60. Bet Duvaarika Ramnak Deep (where Bhagat Peepa jumped (chhal mari si))
61. Narayan sarovar in Kach Des, Kooteshvar Maha Dev (?)
62. Revtgir, aka Girnaar parbat
63. Bindusar in Sidh Pur Gram
64. Pushkar tirath
65. Lohaagar
66. Ujjain
67. Onkar
68. Hinglaj
In the Hindu books there is diagreement about the number of tiraths, some state that there are 22, some 68 and others even claim there to be 102. In a book called Kapil Tantr these 68 teeraths are given as;
Most of the places seem to be rivers ( Sindhu (Indus), Eravatti, Sarasvati, Ganga, Yamuna, ) or places on rivers ( Kashi, Kedarnath, Hardwar ) or near the sea or places where lakes are located.
shivaathervedi wrote: But Prophet Muhammad is not descendant of Imam!!
Of course he is. His grandfather Hazarat Abdul Muttalib was the Imam of the time. Infact the Prophet was orphaned at a very young age and was raised by his grandfather the Imam of the time.
Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam, he was the first Imam of the present cycle. There were Imams before him. For more on that there is a thread at:
shivaathervedi wrote:I am producing 2 lists of 68 pavitra tiraths of Hindus. One by a Sikh writer and other by a Hindu writer for information.
In Ismailism we are discouraged to go to 68 places of physical pilgrimage as per Ginan:
adsath teerath, parabat ne neer
tiyaa nahi niveddaa thaay - jugesar....................jogkaa.....9
Going through sixty eight pilgrimages involving crossing over numerous mountains
and rivers, is not going to give any solution to your (spiritual) crises.
Instead our 68 places are in Jamat Khana as per verse:
SAT-GUR PADHAAREAA TAME JAAGAJO - PEER NUR SATGUR
ejee sat-gur padhaareaa tame jaagajo
ruddaa muneevar bhaaee jee;
addasatth teerath ghar ne aa(ng)anne,
ga(n)gaa jamanaa su(n) bhareaa jee;
naayaa te niramal thiyaa
kuddaa nar-haree thee vegalaa raheaa.........................1
The True Guide has come, so awake, o fair brother in faith. The sixty-eight places of pilgrimage are in the courtyard of your house (JamatKhana), which is filled with the Ganges and Yamuna. Those who bathe therein become pure, while the false remain distant from the Divine Being.
Another Ginan refers to Siratal Mustaqeem as the tirath...
hojire maaraa hansaa,
karnee kamaavo to rab jee su(n) raacho
to teerath travenni aap chalnaa ji............................1
O my (dear) soul! (hansaa), earn good deeds so that you may live in the Lord's presence.
Then you will have the benefits of attending the holy pilgrimage at the confluence of three
rivers (you will be purified); or in meditation your concentration will be fixed automatically
at the point where the three veins (or force channels) on the forehead meet.
There is an article about Pir Hasan Kabirdeen in the book: Noor-en-Allah-Noor, in which a miracle is mentioned about pilgrimage:
Because of Pir Hassan Kabirdin's Ibadat, he could perform miracles. One of the miracles is related here. Upon seeing a group of Hindu pilgrims from Bhawalpur departing for their ritual bath in the Ganga (Ganges), Pir Saheb told them that instead of their going to the holy water, he could bring it to them. And so the miracle happened. The pilgrims saw the waters of Ganga advance towards them, and they bathed in them, after which hundreds of them were converted to Satpanth Religion by Pir Hassan Kabirdin.
The Ganga is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through the nations of India and Bangladesh. The 2,525 km (1,569 mi) river rises in the western Himalayas in the Indian state of Uttarakhand, and flows south and east through the Gangetic Plain of North India into Bangladesh, where it empties into the Bay of Bengal. It is the third largest river in the world by discharge. It is thirty fourth longest river in the world by length.
The Ganges is the most sacred river to Hindus. It is also a lifeline to millions of Indians who live along its course and depend on it for their daily needs. It is worshipped as the goddess Ganga in Hinduism. It has also been important historically, with many former provincial or imperial capitals Kannauj, Kara, Kashi, Patna, Hajipur, Munger, Bhagalpur, Murshidabad, Baharampur, Kampilya, and Kolkata located on its banks.
The Ganges was ranked as the fifth most polluted river of the world in 2007. Pollution threatens not only humans, but also more than 140 fish species, 90 amphibian species and the endangered Ganges river dolphin. The Ganga Action Plan, an environmental initiative to clean up the river, has been a major failure.
The Ganges begins at the confluence of the Bhagirathi and Alaknanda rivers. The Bhagirathi is considered to be the true source in Hindu culture and mythology, although the Alaknanda is longer. The headwaters of the Alakananda are formed by snowmelt from such peaks as Nanda Devi, Trisul, and Kamet. The Bhagirathi rises at the foot of Gangotri Glacier, at Gomukh, at an elevation of 3,892 m (12,769 ft), being mythologically referred to as, residing in the matted locks of Shiva, symbolically Tapovan, being a meadow of ethereal beauty at the feet of Mount Shivling, just 5 km away.
Although many small streams comprise the headwaters of the Ganges, the six longest and their five confluences are considered sacred. The six headstreams are the Alaknanda, Dhauliganga, Nandakini, Pindar, Mandakini, and Bhagirathi rivers. The five confluences, known as the Panch Prayag, are all along the Alaknanda. They are, in downstream order, Vishnuprayag, where the Dhauliganga joins the Alaknanda; Nandprayag, where the Nandakini joins; Karnaprayag, where the Pindar joins, Rudraprayag, where the Mandakini joins; and finally, Devprayag, where the Bhagirathi joins the Alaknanda to form the Ganges River proper.
After flowing 250 kilometres (160 mi) through its narrow Himalayan valley, the Ganges emerges from the mountains at Rishikesh, then debouches onto the Gangetic Plain at the pilgrimage town of Haridwar. At Haridwar, a dam diverts some of its waters into the Ganges Canal, which irrigates the Doab region of Uttar Pradesh, whereas the river, whose course has been roughly southwest until this point, now begins to flow southeast through the plains of northern India.
The Ganges follows an 800-kilometre (500 mi) arching course passing through the cities of Kannauj, Farukhabad, and Kanpur. Along the way it is joined by the Ramganga, which contributes an average annual flow of about 500 m3/s (18,000 cu ft/s). The Ganges joins the Yamuna at the Triveni Sangam at Allahabad, a holy confluence in Hinduism. At their confluence the Yamuna is larger than the Ganges, contributing about 2,950 m3/s (104,000 cu ft/s).
Along the way between Allahabad and Malda, West Bengal, the Ganges passes the towns of Chunar, Mirzapur, Varanasi, Ghazipur, Patna, Bhagalpur, Ballia, Buxar, Simaria, Sultanganj, and Saidpur. At Bhagalpur, the river begins to flow south-southeast and at Pakur, it begins its attrition with the branching away of its first distributary, the Bhagirathi-Hooghly, which goes on to become the Hooghly River. Just before the border with Bangladesh the Farakka Barrage controls the flow of the Ganges, diverting some of the water into a feeder canal linked to the Hooghly for the purpose of keeping it relatively silt-free. The Hooghly River is formed by the confluence of the Bhagirathi River and Jalangi River at Nabadwip, and Hooghly has a number of tributaries of its own. The largest is the Damodar River, which is 541 km (336 mi) long, with a drainage basin of 25,820 km2 (9,970 sq mi). The Hooghly River empties into the Bay of Bengal near Sagar Island. Between Malda and the Bay of Bengal, the Hooghly river passes the towns and cities of Murshidabad, Nabadwip, Kolkata and Howrah.
After entering Bangladesh, the main branch of the Ganges is known as the Padma. The Padma is joined by the Jamuna River, the largest distributary of the Brahmaputra. Further downstream, the Padma joins the Meghna River, the second largest distributary of the Brahmaputra, and takes on the Meghna's name as it enters the Meghna Estuary, which empties into the Bay of Bengal.
Geology;
The Indian subcontinent lies atop the Indian tectonic plate, a minor plate within the Indo-Australian Plate. Its defining geological processes commenced seventy-five million years ago, when, as a part of the southern supercontinent Gondwana, it began a northeastwards drift—lasting fifty million years—across the then unformed Indian Ocean. The subcontinent's subsequent collision with the Eurasian Plate and subduction under it, gave rise to the Himalayas, the planet's highest mountain ranges. In the former seabed immediately south of the emerging Himalayas, plate movement created a vast trough, which, having gradually been filled with sediment borne by the Indus and its tributaries and the Ganges and its tributaries, now forms the Indo-Gangetic Plain.
The name Ganges is used for the river between the confluence of the Bhagirathi and Alaknanda rivers, in the Himalayas, and the India-Bangladesh border, near the Farakka Barrage and the first bifurcation of the river. The length of the Ganges is frequently said to be slightly over 2,500 km (1,600 mi) long, about 2,505 km (1,557 mi), to 2,525 km (1,569 mi). In these cases the river's source is usually assumed to be the source of the Bhagirathi River, Gangotri Glacier at Gomukh, and its mouth being the mouth of the Meghna River on the Bay of Bengal. Sometimes the source of the Ganges is considered to be at Haridwar, where its Himalayan headwater streams debouch onto the Gangetic Plain.The hydrologic cycle in the Ganges basin is governed by the Southwest Monsoon. About 84% of the total rainfall occurs in the monsoon from June to September. Consequently, streamflow in the Ganges is highly seasonal. The average dry season to monsoon discharge ratio is about 1:6, as measured at Hardinge Bridge. This strong seasonal variation underlies many problems of land and water resource development in the region. The seasonality of flow is so acute it can cause both drought and floods. Bangladesh, in particular, frequently experiences drought during the dry season and regularly suffers extreme floods during the monsoon.
The Late Harappan period, about 1900–1300 BCE, saw the spread of Harappan settlement eastward from the Indus River basin to the Ganges-Yamuna doab, although none crossed the Ganges to settle its eastern bank. The disintegration of the Harappan civilization, in the early 2nd millennium BC, mark the point when the center of Indian civilization shifted from the Indus basin to the Ganges basin. There may be links between the Late Harappan settlement of the Ganges basin an the Indo-Aryan people, and the Vedic period.
This river is the longest in India. During the early Vedic Age of the Rigveda, the Indus and the Sarasvati River were the major sacred rivers, not the Ganges. But the later three Vedas give much more importance to the Ganges. The Gangetic Plain became the centre of successive powerful states, from the Maurya Empire to the Mughal Empire.
Ganga the sacred river;
The Ganga is a sacred river to Hindus along every fragment of its length. All along its course, Hindus bathe in its waters, paying homage to their ancestors and to their gods by cupping the water in their hands, lifting it and letting it fall back into the river; they offer flowers and rose petals and float shallow clay dishes filled with oil and lit with wicks (diyas). On the journey back home from the Ganga, they carry small quantities of river water with them for use in rituals (ganga jal, literally water of the Ganga). When a loved one dies, Hindus bring the ashes of the deceased person to the Ganga River.
The Ganga is the embodiment of all sacred waters in Hindu mythology. Local rivers are said to be like the Ganga, and are sometimes called the local Ganga. The Kaveri river of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu in Southern India is called the Ganga of the South; the Godavari, is the Ganga that was led by the sage Gautama to flow through Central India. The Ganga is invoked whenever water is used in Hindu ritual, and is therefore present in all sacred waters. In spite of this, nothing is more stirring for a Hindu than a dip in the actual river, which is thought to remit sins, especially at one of the famous tirthas such as Gangotri, Haridwar, Prayag, or Varanasi. The symbolic and religious importance of the Ganga is one of the few things that Hindu India, even its skeptics, are agreed upon. Jawaharlal Nehru, a religious iconoclast himself, asked for a handful of his ashes to be thrown into the Ganga. "The Ganga," he wrote in his will, "is the river of India, beloved of her people, round which are intertwined her racial memories, her hopes and fears, her songs of triumph, her victories and her defeats. She has been a symbol of India's age-long culture and civilization, ever-changing, ever-flowing, and yet ever the same Ganga."
Descent of Ganga;
In late May or early June every year, Hindus celebrate the avatarana or descent of the Ganga from heaven to earth. The day of the celebration, Ganga Dashahara, the dashami (tenth day) of the waxing moon of the Hindu calendar month Jyestha, brings throngs of bathers to the banks of the river. A soak in the Ganga on this day is said to rid the bather of ten sins (dasha = Sanskrit "ten"; hara = to destroy) or alternatively, ten lifetimes of sins. Those who cannot journey to the river, however, can achieve the same results by bathing in any nearby body of water, which, for the true believer, in the Hindu tradition, takes on all the attributes of the Ganga.
The avatarana is an old theme in Hinduism with a number of different versions of the story. In the Vedic version, Indra, the Lord of Svarga (Heaven) slays the celestial serpent, Vritra, releasing the celestial liquid, the soma, or the nectar of the gods which then plunges to the earth and waters it with sustenance.
In the Vaishnava version of the myth, Indra has been replaced by his former helper Vishnu. The heavenly waters are now a river called Vishnupadi (padi: Skt. "from the foot of"). As he completes his celebrated three strides—of earth, sky, and heaven—Vishnu as Vamana stubs his toe on the vault of heaven, punches open a hole, and releases the Vishnupadi, which until now had been circling around the cosmic egg within. Flowing out of the vault, she plummets down to Indra's heaven, where she is received by Dhruva, the once steadfast worshipper of Vishnu, now fixed in the sky as the polestar. Next, she streams across the sky forming the Milky Way and arrives on the moon. She then flows down earthwards to Brahma's realm, a divine lotus atop Mount Meru, whose petals form the earthly continents. There, the divine waters break up, with one stream, the Alaknanda, flowing down one petal into Bharatvarsha (India) as the Ganga.
It is Shiva, however, among the major deities of the Hindu pantheon, who appears in the most widely known version of the avatarana story. Told and retold in the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and several Puranas, the story begins with a sage, Kapila, whose intense meditation has been disturbed by the sixty thousand sons of King Sagara. Livid at being disturbed, Kapila sears them with his angry gaze, reduces them to ashes, and dispatches them to the netherworld. Only the waters of the Ganga, then in heaven, can bring the dead sons their salvation. A descendant of these sons, King Bhagiratha, anxious to restore his ancestors, undertakes rigorous penance and is eventually granted the prize of Ganga's descent from heaven. However, since her turbulent force would also shatter the earth, Bhagiratha persuades Shiva in his abode on Mount Kailash to receive Ganga in the coils of his tangled hair and break her fall. Ganga descends, is tamed in Shiva's locks, and arrives in the Himalayas. She is then led by the waiting Bhagiratha down into the plains at Haridwar, across the plains first to the confluence with the Yamuna at Prayag and then to Varanasi, and eventually to Ganga Sagar, where she meets the ocean, sinks to the netherworld, and saves the sons of Sagara. In honour of Bhagirath's pivotal role in the avatarana, the source stream of the Ganga in the Himalayas is named Bhagirathi, (Sanskrit, "of Bhagiratha").
Redemption of the dead.
Since Ganga had descended from heaven to earth, she is also the vehicle of ascent, from earth to heaven. As the Triloka-patha-gamini, (Skt. triloka= "three worlds", patha = "road", gamini = "one who travels") of the Hindu tradition, she flows in heaven, earth, and the netherworld, and, consequently, is a "tirtha," or crossing point of all beings, the living as well as the dead. It is for this reason that the story of the avatarana is told at Shraaddha ceremonies for the deceased in Hinduism, and Ganga water is used in Vedic rituals after death. Among all hymns devoted to the Ganga, there are none more popular than the ones expressing the worshiper's wish to breathe his last surrounded by her waters.
No place along her banks is more longed for at the moment of death by Hindus than Varanasi, the Great Cremation Ground, or Mahashmashana. Those who are lucky enough to die in Varanasi, are cremated on the banks of the Ganga, and are granted instant salvation. If the death has occurred elsewhere, salvation can be achieved by immersing the ashes in the Ganga. If the ashes have been immersed in another body of water, a relative can still gain salvation for the deceased by journeying to the Ganga, if possible during the lunar "fortnight of the ancestors" in the Hindu calendar month of Ashwin (September or October), and performing the Shraaddha rites.
Hindus also perform pinda pradana, a rite for the dead, in which balls of rice and sesame seed are offered to the Ganga while the names of the deceased relatives are recited. Every sesame seed in every ball thus offered, according to one story, assures a thousand years of heavenly salvation for the each relative. Indeed, the Ganga is so important in the rituals after death that the Mahabharata, in one of its popular slokas, says, "If only (one) bone of a (deceased) person should touch the water of the Ganga, that person shall dwell honoured in heaven." As if to illustrate this truism, the Kashi Khanda (Varanasi Chapter) of the Skanda Purana recounts the remarkable story of Vahika, a profligate and unrepentant sinner, who is killed by a tiger in the forest. His soul arrives before Yama, the Lord of Death, to be judged for the hereafter. Having no compensating virtue, Vahika's soul is at once dispatched to hell. While this is happening, his body on earth, however, is being picked at by vultures, one of whom flies away with a foot bone. Another bird comes after the vulture, and in fighting him off, the vulture accidentally drops the bone into the Ganga below. Blessed by this happenstance, Vahika, on his way to hell, is rescued by a celestial chariot which takes him instead to heaven.
shivaathervedi wrote:I am producing 2 lists of 68 pavitra tiraths of Hindus. One by a Sikh writer and other by a Hindu writer for information.
In Ismailism we are discouraged to go to 68 places of physical pilgrimage as per Ginan:
adsath teerath, parabat ne neer
tiyaa nahi niveddaa thaay - jugesar....................jogkaa.....9
Going through sixty eight pilgrimages involving crossing over numerous mountains
and rivers, is not going to give any solution to your (spiritual) crises.
I quoted names of 68 tiraths for information and no where suggested or encouraged Satpanthis to visit these places. By the way what is your opinion about tiraths of Ameer pir, Shah Turail, or Shah Kapoor? ( I read some posts on Heritage).
shivaathervedi wrote:I quoted names of 68 tiraths for information and no where suggested or encouraged Satpanthis to visit these places. By the way what is your opinion about tiraths of Ameer pir, Shah Turail, or Shah Kapoor? ( I read some posts on Heritage).
[/quote]I did not imply that you suggested Satpanthis to go to the 68 places. I just posted to underline the difference between the approach of Hinduism and Ismailism in regards to the 68 places.
My personal opinion about visiting shrines and other places of pilgrimage is that if you are a practicing Ismaili attending JK regularly, there is no added value in visiting those places because the Imam himself is present in JK and one can get all the necessary support, baraka and inspiration from JK.
However for non-Ismailis it is a different matter. There may be benefits depending upon one's faith.
shivaathervedi wrote: But Prophet Muhammad is not descendant of Imam!!
Of course he is. His grandfather Hazarat Abdul Muttalib was the Imam of the time. Infact the Prophet was orphaned at a very young age and was raised by his grandfather the Imam of the time.
Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam, he was the first Imam of the present cycle. There were Imams before him. For more on that there is a thread at:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Does NOOR has progeny, ancestors, or heredity?
Noor is Eternal, since Eternity it has Manifested through any entity it chooses. There have always been Noor and there will always be Noor, even if it is the Noor of the Space Age.
When Noor Manifest itself through the Present Imam, the Present Imam has a progeny and ancestry and somehow the Noor has manifested itself "by coincidence" through his ancestry
Mirabai was a great saint and devotee of Sri Krishna. Despite facing criticism and hostility from her own family, she lived an exemplary saintly life and composed many devotional bhajans. Historical information about the life of Mirabai is a matter of some scholarly debate. The oldest biographical account was Priyadas’s commentary in Nabhadas’ Sri Bhaktammal in 1712.
Mira was born around 1498 and passed away in 1546 CE in the Chaukari village in mirabai Merta, Rajasthan. Her father was Ratan Singh a descendent of Rao Rathor, the founder of Jodhpur. When Mirabai was only three years old, a wandering Sadhu came to her family’s home and gave a doll of Sri Krishna to her father. Her father took this is as a special blessing, but was initially unwilling to give it to her daughter, because she felt she would not appreciate it. However Mira had, at first sight, become deeply enamoured with this doll. She refused to eat until the doll of Sri Krishna was given to her. To Mira, this figure of Sri Krishna, embodied his living presence. She resolved to make Krishna her lifelong friend, lover, and husband. Throughout her turbulent life she never wavered from her youthful commitment.
In 1516 CE, Mira’s father arranged for her to be married to Prince Bhoj Raj, who was the eldest son of Rana Sanga of Chittor. They were an influential Hindu family and the marriage significantly elevated Mira’s social position. However Mira was not enamoured of the luxuries of the palace. She served her husband dutifully, but in the evening she would spend her time in devotion and singing to her beloved Sri Krishna. Whilst singing devotional bhajans, she would frequently lose awareness of the world, entering into states of ecstasy and trance.
Her new family did not approve of her piety and devotion to Krishna. To make things worse Mira refused to worship their family deity Durga. She said she had already committed herself to Sri Krishna. Her family became increasingly disproving of her actions, but the fame and saintly reputation of Mirabai spread throughout the region. Often she would spend time discussing spiritual issues with Sadhus and people would join in the singing of her bhajans. However this just made her family even more jealous. Mira’s sister-in-law Udabai started to spread false gossip and defamatory remarks about Mirabai. She said Mira was entertaining men in her room. Her husband, believing these stories to be true, tore into her room with sword in hand. However he saw Mira only playing with a doll. No man was there at all. Yet throughout these hysterical slanders Mirabai remained unmoved by both the criticism and praise of the world.
Mirabai and Akbar;
Mira’s fame spread far and wide her devotional bhajans were sung across northern India. It is said that the fame and spirituality of Mirabai reached the ears of the Moghul Emperor Akbar. Akbar was tremendously powerful, but he was also very interested in different religious paths. The problem was that he and Mirabai’s family were the worst enemies; to visit Mirabai would cause problems for both him and Mirabai. But Akbar was determined to see Mirabai, the Princess – Saint. Disguised in the clothes of beggars he travelled with Tansen to visit Mirabai. Akbar was so enamoured of her soulful music and devotional singing, that he placed at her feet a priceless necklace before leaving. However in the course of time Akbar’s visit came to the ears of her husband Bhoj Raj. He was furious that a Muslim and his own arch enemy and set eyes upon his wife. He ordered Mirabai to commit suicide by drowning in a river. Mirabai intended to honour her husbands command, but as she was entering the river Sri Krishna appeared to her and commanded her to leave for Brindaban where she could worship him in peace. So with a few followers, Mirabai left for Brindaban, where she spent her time in devotion to Sri Krishna. After a while her husband became repentant, feeling that her wife was actually a real saint. Thus he travelled to Brindaban and requested her to return. Mirabai agreed, much to the displeasure of the rest of her family.
However soon after Mira’s husband died; (fighting in battles with the Moghul emperors). This made the situation even worse for Mirabai. Her father in law, Rana Sanga, saw her husband’s death as a way to be rid of Mirabai. He commanded her to commit Sati. However Mirabai, with the inner direct assurance of her beloved Sri Krishna, said that she would not do this. Her real husband, Sri Krishna had not died. She would later say in her poetry.
Sati na hosyan girdhar gansyan mhara man moho ghananami
I will not commit sati. I will sing the songs of Girdhar Krishna, and will not become sati because my heart is enamoured of Hari.
After this experience her family continued to torture her. They restricted her movements and sought to make her life as uncomfortable as possible. Yet in the face of all these trials and tribulation she remained detached from her physical suffering. There was nothing that could disturb her inner connection to Giridhara (epithet of Sri Krishna as young cowherd boy). It is said that twice her family tried to kill her, once through a venomous snake and once through poisonous drink. On both occasions it is said Mirabai, protected by the Grace of Sri Krishna, came to no ill harm.
Mirabai in Brindaban;
However the relentless torments and hostility interfered with her life of devotion and contemplation on Krishna. She sought the advice of learned men and saints. They advised her to leave the palace and return to Brindaban. Secretly, with some followers, she slipped out of the palace and escaped to the holy city of Brindaban. In Brindaban Mirabai was free to worship Giridhara to her heart’s content. She would spend her time in singing bhajans and in ecstatic communion with Krishna. Like a true Bhakti she worshipped God wholeheartedly. The riches of the world offered no attraction to Mirabai; her only satisfaction came from her single minded devotion to Sri Krishna. Her soul was ever yearning for Krishna. She considered herself to be a Gopi of Vrindaban, mad only with pure love for Krishna.
Translation of her Bhajan;
I am mad with love
And no one understands my plight.
Only the wounded
Understand the agonies of the wounded,
When the fire rages in the heart.
Only the jeweller knows the value of the jewel,
Not the one who lets it go.
In pain I wander from door to door,
But could not find a doctor.
Says Mira: Harken, my Master,
Mira’s pain will subside
When Shyam comes as the doctor.
Her devotion and spiritual magnetism were infectious. She inspired many to follow the path of Vaishnavism. As Swami Sivananda stated:
"Mira wafted the fragrance of devotion far and wide. Those who came in contact with her were affected by her strong current of Prem. Mira was like Lord Gauranga. She was an embodiment of love and innocence. Her heart was the temple of devotion. Her face was the lotus-flower of Prem. There was kindness in her look, love in her talk, joy in her discourses, power in her speech and fervour in her songs.”
Even learned Sadhus would come to her for inspiration. There is a story of one respected Spiritual Master, who refused to speak to Mirabai because she was a woman. Mirabai replied there was only 1 real man in Brindaban, Sri Krishna; everyone else was a Gopi of Krishna. On hearing this the Spiritual teacher accepted the wisdom of Mirabai and agreed to talk to her.
Poems of Mirabai
Much of what we know about Mirabai comes from her poetry. Her poetry express the longing and seeking of her soul for union with Sri Krishna. At time she expresses the pain of separation and at other times the ecstasy of divine union. Her devotional poems were designed to be sung as bhajans and many are still sung today. Mira’s songs infuse faith, courage, devotion and love of God in the minds of the readers. They inspire the aspirants to take to the path of devotion and they produce in them a marvelous thrill and a melting of the heart.
Mirabai was a devotee of the highest order. She was immune to the criticism and suffering of the world. She was born a princess but forsook the pleasures of a palace for begging on the streets of Brindaban. She lived during a time of war and spiritual decline, but her life offered a shining example of the purest devotion. Many were inspired by her infectious devotion and spontaneous love for Sri Krishna. Mirabai showed how a seeker could attain union with God, only through love. Her only message was that Krishna was her all and for all. She said in a bhajan,
My Beloved dwells in my heart,
I have actually seen that Abode of Joy.
Mira’s Lord is Hari, the Indestructible.
My Lord, I have taken refuge with Thee,
Thy slave.
It is said in her death she melted into the heart of Krishna. Tradition relates how one day she was singing in a temple, when Sri Krishna appeared in his subtle form. Sri Krishna was so pleased with his dearest devotee. He opened up his heart centre and Mirabai entered leaving her body whilst in the highest state of Krishna consciousness.
Sri Chinmoy says of Mirabai,
"Mirabai was a devotee of the high, higher, highest order. Among the saints of India, she is absolutely unparalleled. She composed many, many bhajans, which are prayerful songs to God. Each song Mirabai wrote expressed her inspiration, aspiration and sleepless self-giving".
Some famous bhajans of Mira;
HY RE MEIN TOU PREM DEEVANI MERO DARAD NA JANEY KOI
SULLI UPPER SAIJ HAMARI KAS WADH SONNA HOI
GAGAN MUNDAL PEY SAIJ PIA KI KAS WADH MANNA HOI
GHAYEL KI GHAT GHAYEL JANEY KEY JINN LAAI HOI
JOHAR KI GHAT JOHARI JANEY KEY JIN JOHAR HOI
DARAD KI MAARI BUN BUN DHOLU(N) VED NA MALIYA KOI
MIRA KEU PRABHU PEER MITTEY JUB VED SA(N)AWALIYA HOI
AISEY VARR KO KI WARRU(N) JO JANAMEY AOUR MAR JAI
VARR WARIEY GOPAL JI TOU MARO CHARLO AMAR HOEI JAI (CHARLO MEANS DU PATTA)
GHARI EEK NAHI AWAREY TUM DARSHAN BIN MOI
TUM HO MEREY PRAAN JI KAISEY JEEVAN HOI
DHAAN NA BHAWEY NEE(N)D NA AAWEY BRIHA SATAI MOI
GHAYEL SI GHUMAT PHRU(N) MIRA KA DARAD NA JANEY KOI
DARAS BIN DUKHAN LAAGAN NAINA
JOB SEY TUM BICHHREY MEREY PRABHU
KABHI NA PAYO CHAIN
MIRA KEEY PRABHU KUBB MILO GEY
DUKH MITTEIN SUKH DIYEEN
BALA MEIN BERAGAN HU(N)GI
JIN BHESHU(N) HAMARO SAHEB REEJHEY
SOHI BHESH DHRU(N)GI
SHEEL SANTOSH DARU(N) GHAT BHETAR
SAMTA PAKAR RAHU(N)GI
JAKO NAAM NIRIJAN KAHEI(N)
TAKO DHIYAN DHRU(N)GI
MIRA KE PRABHU GHIRDAR NAAGAR
SADHAAN SUNG RAHU(N)GI
shivaathervedi wrote:
Does NOOR has progeny, ancestors, or heredity?
There is a Farman of MSMS indicating that the NOOR has progeny.
"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).
The term 'lineal descent' means that it is hereditary. I think heredity is important because it enables society to recognize the legitimate holders of authority as opposed to fraudulent claimants. The Proof of the Noorani lineage is that it continues to survive whereas other lineages have disappeared.
Oh Lord Ali has come from the progeny of the Imams
and He is the same Lord that occupies the throne in the
present era
Manifestation upon manifestation the lineage has been
established
How can He be anyone else (other than the NOOR)
Haree You are eternal...
Paramahansa Yogananda explains the significance of the Ganges in his commentary of the Bhagavad Gita:
"The Ganges is revered as the holiest of rivers, blessed by God through the vibrations of the many liberated saints who have bathed in her waters and meditated on her banks. Symbolically, the Ganges represents the ever-flowing intuitive wisdom in the liberated yogi. It also represents the taintless sushumna life-current, which flows through the astral spine from the coccyx to the thousand-petaled lotus in the brain. The life force and soul perception of the yogi is carried on this river of life away from bodily material entanglements to the shores of blessedness in Spirit."
In Ismailism the Ganges is the Jamat Khana:
jeerebhaaire bhanne sayyad imaamshaah gat gangaa karee jaanno
tenu gupt vahe chhe pravaah.........................10
O living brother! Sayyed Imaamshaah teaches that regard Jamat Khana as the Ganges(where holy pilgrimage is performed). It's flow is hidden(or spiritual).
shivaathervedi wrote:
Does NOOR has progeny, ancestors, or heredity?
Noor is Eternal, since Eternity it has Manifested through any entity it chooses. There have always been Noor and there will always be Noor, even if it is the Noor of the Space Age.
When Noor Manifest itself through the Present Imam, the Present Imam has a progeny and ancestry and somehow the Noor has manifested itself "by coincidence" through his ancestry
In other words you mean noor needs a body to operate. For creation of a pure body to hold noor two other pure bodies are needed to give birth. When two persons (husband and wife) unite than third body is created or take birth. Laws of motherhood and fatherhood are equal for all humans and animals. If 'HE' took birth means HE negated HIS principle according to Surah Ikhlas where He introduced himself as HUWALLAHU AHAD. ( HE ALLAH IS ONE).
Universe is not created in a haphazard way. It is created as well planned and in systematic way. Why God took KASHTT (pain) to manifest as a fish, tortoise
or a lion to guide human beings when HE had a system of messengers as guides.
Usually Iblees is equated with Daet kalingo. Iblees is not married and has no family. where as Kalingo is married to Surja Rani and has kids. Is Surja Rani still married to kalingo, if yes where she lives in China or India?
shivaathervedi wrote:
In other words you mean noor needs a body to operate. For creation of a pure body to hold noor two other pure bodies are needed to give birth.
Mazhar, these has always been your problems:
1) You always say to other people "you mean this and that" and you have no clue what a person means when he write something specific and you read something else. That is called a lack of education
2) Your other problem is that you confuse the body with the Noor because you can not understand that the Noor manifest through the body but is not the body. Shah Karim was not Imam nor did he have the Noor before 11 July 1957. But the body was existing. Whatever he was saying before that date was not considered Farmans by us Ismailis because at that time the Noor did not manifest himself though him. But today we bow to his Noor and accept his sayings as Farmans divinely ordained.
In ginans the word used is patra means vessel, container or ship (body).
Please take example of very first Imam in beginning. The noor and body came both together for guidance or first body came followed by the noor later. Indeed noor needs body to order or express through speech.
Imam is born innocent Imam in pure womb, is this right or wrong?
shivaathervedi wrote:In other words you mean noor needs a body to operate. For creation of a pure body to hold noor two other pure bodies are needed to give birth. When two persons (husband and wife) unite than third body is created or take birth. Laws of motherhood and fatherhood are equal for all humans and animals. If 'HE' took birth means HE negated HIS principle according to Surah Ikhlas where He introduced himself as HUWALLAHU AHAD. ( HE ALLAH IS ONE)..
Allah says in the Qur'an that he has sent a Hujjat the witness or proof in the world. Hence the Noor has to manifest itself in creation. The Noor can manifest itself anywhere and at any time in any form. It does not need two humans for that. However in the interests of the society it makes more sense that he manifest himself through natural birth involving two humans. Most humans don't believe in the notion of Mazhar/Avtaar/Hujaat. Hence it would create terrible misunderstanding in society if the Noor just manifested in a spontaneous manner. Therefore the Noor manifests itself through the normal human conception in the same family so that the family is recognised as unique and distinct entrusted with Divine authority and power for those who believe in the notion of Mazhar. The rest may consider the Mazhars as ordinary human beings.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Universe is not created in a haphazard way. It is created as well planned and in systematic way. Why God took KASHTT (pain) to manifest as a fish, tortoise
or a lion to guide human beings when HE had a system of messengers as guides.
He manifested as fish, tortoise, man-lion to undertake certain temporary tasks to destroy the demons and restore religion. Once the tasks were completed, He manifested back to human form to continue the role of guidance. For more on this you may read Anant Akhado form verse 404 onwards at: http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html
Admin wrote:
2) Your other problem is that you confuse the body with the Noor because you can not understand that the Noor manifest through the body but is not the body. Shah Karim was not Imam nor did he have the Noor before 11 July 1957. But the body was existing. Whatever he was saying before that date was not considered Farmans by us Ismailis because at that time the Noor did not manifest himself though him. But today we bow to his Noor and accept his sayings as Farmans divinely ordained.
Imams are born Imams, they don't become Imams at the time of appointment through nass, that is for recognition of world. Shah Karim was the Imam since birth but was recognised as such at his appointment. There is a saying of [Imam Hasan] 'ala dhikrihi al-salam in Tusi's Paradise of Submission:
[§356] Another extract from the holy words of [the Imam Hasan] 'aid dhikrihi al-saldm:
If mankind knew what the Imamate is, no one would have entertained doubts such as these. If only they had realised that mutability cannot exist without some immutable [central] point, just as the circumference [cannot exist] without the centre point. For everything that rotates or moves requires a cause for its rotation and movement, and the moving force in relation to the object which rotates or moves must be stable and perfect, in order to be able to spin or move it. This is why it has been said [in the Gospels]: 'Heaven and earth will change, but the commandment of the Sabbath will never be altered.'111 This means that while the Prophets and the hujjats may change - at one time this one, at another time that one, at one time in this community, at another time in that - the Imam will never change: 'We are the people of eternity.'112 [The essential nature of the Imarn will never change], even when he is a drop of sperm in the loins of his father, or [a foetus] in the womb of his mother. It is a total impossibility to suppose that the true Imam could cease to exist, and the case of the acting (mustawda) Imam such as our lord Hasan [b. 'All], could be any different.113 In reality, it is impossible for any past or future Imam to be better or more powerful than another, or to be better at one time than at another time. For example, it is wrong to suppose that he should be better when he reaches maturity than when he was a drop of sperm, or better when the designation (nass) was made than before it was made. The designation which is made is not in order to make him an Imam; it is only made so that people should recognise him as such - otherwise, from his standpoint and perspective, all such different states are one and the same. Such is the case because a perfect man (kamill) must always exist amongst God's creatures in order to raise those who are incomplete and deficient to a state of perfection. Even if you assume that he is not that person [the perfect man], there would still have to be someone else. For, if each imperfect soul needs a more perfect soul [to perfect it], and the more perfect soul, [in its turn], needs an even more perfect one, and in the final case, [the chain] must terminate with the perfect man who does not need anybody else, and through whose instruction [all others] may reach perfection. Such a perfect man is a logical necessity and the matter must ultimately finish there [with him].
shivaathervedi wrote:Usually Iblees is equated with Daet kalingo. Iblees is not married and has no family. where as Kalingo is married to Surja Rani and has kids. Is Surja Rani still married to kalingo, if yes where she lives in China or India?
Please provide reference of Kalingo marrying Surja Rani.
Below is an extract about Mirabai quoted from the Autobiography of a Yogi, which touches on some aspects of Ismailism.
This evening Bhaduri expounded various philosophical points connected with the life of Mirabai, a medieval Rajputani princess who abandoned her court life to seek the company of sadhus. One great-sannyasi refused to receive her because she was a woman; her reply brought him humbly to her feet.
"Tell the master," she had said, "that I did not know there was any Male in the universe save God; are we all not females before Him?" (A scriptural conception of the Lord as the only Positive Creative Principle, His creation being naught but a passive maya.)
Mirabai composed many ecstatic songs which are still treasured in India; I translate one of them here:
"If by bathing daily God could be realized
Sooner would I be a whale in the deep;
If by eating roots and fruits He could be known
Gladly would I choose the form of a goat;
If the counting of rosaries uncovered Him
I would say my prayers on mammoth beads;
If bowing before stone images unveiled Him
A flinty mountain I would humbly worship;
If by drinking milk the Lord could be imbibed
Many calves and children would know Him;
If abandoning one's wife would summon God
Would not thousands be eunuchs?
Mirabai knows that to find the Divine One
The only indispensable is Love."
shivaathervedi wrote: But Prophet Muhammad is not descendant of Imam!!
Of course he is. His grandfather Hazarat Abdul Muttalib was the Imam of the time. Infact the Prophet was orphaned at a very young age and was raised by his grandfather the Imam of the time.
Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam, he was the first Imam of the present cycle. There were Imams before him. For more on that there is a thread at:
The well-known genealogy of the Holy Prophet Muhammad is as follows: Muhammad , son of Abdullah son of Abdul Muttalib son of Hashim son of Abde Manaf son of Qusayy son of Kilab son of Marrah son of Lavi son of Ghalib son of Fahar son of Malik son of Nuzayr son of Kananah son of Khuzaimah son of Madrakah son of Ilyas son of Mazar son of Nazar son of Maad son of Adnan son of Ov son of Alyasi son of Alhameesa son of Salaman son of Albant son of Hamal son of Qidar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim Khalil son of Tarukh son of Nakhur son of Sharoogh son of Arghu son of Faalagh son of Aabar son of Shaalakh son of Arfahshad son of Saam son of Nuh son of Malik son of Matushalakh son of Akhnoon son of Alyaaraz son of Mahlaail son of Feenaan son of Anoosh son of Sheeth son of Adam.
This is a literary debate and has nothing to do with faith of any person.
1. I read the thread you suggested. I have few questions regarding the 77 patras. Above I have posted the genealogy of Prophet Muhammad. In any Muslim history including Shia or Sunni no where it is mentioned that fore fathers of Prophet Muhammad were Imams. Not even current Ismaili histories point towards this notion. According to Ismaili literature Hazrat Hunaid and Hazrat Abu Talib were Imam Muqeem and not Imam Mustaqar.
2. The list of 77 patras provided is confusing. It starts from Hazrat Ali and goes to Adnan then, it is shifting to other lineage then, comes back to Hazrat Ismael to Hazrat Adam, who is mentioned as Budha. According to historical time line there is thousands of years gap between Adam and Budha. Historically there was one 9th avatar Budha.
3. There is a reference of a ginan by Syed Abdul Nabi," PAATAR SENTOTER IMAM CHAALEES" and explaination of that line is given," He is 77th paatar and 40th Imam is Shah Nizar".Again it is confusing, because the counting given is 37 patras before Hazrat Ali and after Ali the 40th Imam is shah Nizar totaling to 77.
4. There is another list of kalaps, karans and yugs. I wander kalaps and karans are spread over hundreds of thousands of years and there are only 27 patras mentioned. In previous yugs spread on millions of years there are 49 patras mentioned. Obviously according to time line names of hundreds of patras are missing. There is no consistency.
5. According to Ismaili philosophy there are 6 cycles of Natiq and Asas. Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses and Christ, Prophet Muhammad. Ibrahim's Asas was Ismael, after Ismael when and under what circumstances Imamat shifted or transferred to progeny of Issac and from Issac to family or followers of Christ and than back to ancestors of Prophet.
6. Why before Hazrat Ali Imams are called Patras and after Ali Imams, patras in ginanic literature means container, vessel or ship.
shivaathervedi wrote:Usually Iblees is equated with Daet kalingo. Iblees is not married and has no family. where as Kalingo is married to Surja Rani and has kids. Is Surja Rani still married to kalingo, if yes where she lives in China or India?
Please provide reference of Kalingo marrying Surja Rani.
SURJA RANI
Heritage Dictionary of ismailism, entry #395
Surja=sun rani=Queen. Queen of the Sun. Was married to Daint Kalinga in China. Met and learned the teachings of Pir Shams. She will try very hard to convert her husband, but without success. She will killed her husband at the time of apocalypse. Had 2 daughters: Ajia and Wajia and 2 sons Kamla and Damla.
shivaathervedi wrote:1. I read the thread you suggested. I have few questions regarding the 77 patras. Above I have posted the genealogy of Prophet Muhammad. In any Muslim history including Shia or Sunni no where it is mentioned that fore fathers of Prophet Muhammad were Imams. Not even current Ismaili histories point towards this notion. According to Ismaili literature Hazrat Hunaid and Hazrat Abu Talib were Imam Muqeem and not Imam Mustaqar..
The permanent existence of a living Imam is central to our Tariqah. In the earlier post I provided a Farman about lineal descent of Imamat since creation. Hence Imamat is an eternal institution. In addition there is a hadith which states:
"If the world remain without an Imam even for a moment, verily the earth would perish with all its population."
Hence Imamat has always existed.
Pir Sadardeen has provided us with the genealogy in our Old Dua which was recited for centuries and even sanctioned by our Imams in the past. This genealogy was presented in the Haji Bibi case as evidence.
History of 1000 years before is always problematic. One will always construe based on personal beliefs. The Sunnis and the Shias who do not believe in permanent Imamat are not likely to mention the existence of Imams prior to Hazart Ali.
As Ismailis we accept the version given by our Pir
shivaathervedi wrote:
2. The list of 77 patras provided is confusing. It starts from Hazrat Ali and goes to Adnan then, it is shifting to other lineage then, comes back to Hazrat Ismael to Hazrat Adam, who is mentioned as Budha. According to historical time line there is thousands of years gap between Adam and Budha. Historically there was one 9th avatar Budha..
The 77 Patras do not comprise the entire genealogy of the Imams, which would of course have many many names. The mention of 77 is symbolic of permanent Imamat even before HA. The list provided in the link below is not confusing... http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0
shivaathervedi wrote:
3. There is a reference of a ginan by Syed Abdul Nabi," PAATAR SENTOTER IMAM CHAALEES" and explaination of that line is given," He is 77th paatar and 40th Imam is Shah Nizar".Again it is confusing, because the counting given is 37 patras before Hazrat Ali and after Ali the 40th Imam is shah Nizar totaling to 77..
As mentioned above 77 is just symbolic. There were many many more Imams than that.
shivaathervedi wrote:
4. There is another list of kalaps, karans and yugs. I wander kalaps and karans are spread over hundreds of thousands of years and there are only 27 patras mentioned. In previous yugs spread on millions of years there are 49 patras mentioned. Obviously according to time line names of hundreds of patras are missing. There is no consistency..
Answer as above
shivaathervedi wrote:
5. According to Ismaili philosophy there are 6 cycles of Natiq and Asas. Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses and Christ, Prophet Muhammad. Ibrahim's Asas was Ismael, after Ismael when and under what circumstances Imamat shifted or transferred to progeny of Issac and from Issac to family or followers of Christ and than back to ancestors of Prophet..
To my knowledge Imamat never transferred from the lineage of Ismail. Issac was the brother of Ismail and Joesph, Jacob, Joesph and Benjamin belonged to that lineage.
shivaathervedi wrote:
6. Why before Hazrat Ali Imams are called Patras and after Ali Imams, patras in ginanic literature means container, vessel or ship.
Because Patras are interpreted as vessels in which authority is contained and where all the Dasond is to be submitted.
Heritage Dictionary of ismailism, entry #395
Surja=sun rani=Queen. Queen of the Sun. Was married to Daint Kalinga in China. Met and learned the teachings of Pir Shams. She will try very hard to convert her husband, but without success. She will killed her husband at the time of apocalypse. Had 2 daughters: Ajia and Wajia and 2 sons Kamla and Damla.
Thanks, if Surja lived during the time of Pir Shams, then obviously there is no way that she herself could survive till today. Perhaps her descendants might be somewhere.
