you read carefully Anant Akhado then you will sure find out about 12 carore.
Rai Abu Ali was only one no Other missionary can take his place and I have noticed that Ismaili Study London students doesn't have respect towards him
Read A.akhado I am pretty sure you will find the answer.
Yes Anant Akhado mentions a lot about 12 crores, but not about Farta Velaa being part of the 12 crores.
There is a verse of Anant naa Nav chhugaa which states:
Aashaajee Chaar kanyaa-un Dev nee chhe
ek ardh-ang nee saar-jee,
Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen Shaah ne veenve
Swaamee maaraa karo amaaree saar........Haree anant...10
Oh Lord The four women are of the spirits(are merged in the
spirit having completed their mission. This refers to Pahelaaj,
Harischandra,Jujesthann and Pir Sadardin)
one is essentially half bodied(refers to his mission as
being incomplete)
Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen pleads to the Lord
Oh our Lord perfect us
Haree You are eternal...
The above verse clearly indicates that the eternal purpose with respect to the four yugas represented by Pahelaaj, Harishchandra, Jujesthann and Pir Sadardeen is complete.
However Pir Hassan Kabirdeen's mission of the salvation of the countless is not complete.
Hence Pir Hassan kabirdeens mission and purpose has no connection with the previous four Yugas.
If you know of verses to prove your false understanding please provide specific verses rather than saying read 500+ verses of Ananth Akhado.
I tried to locate the above part of ginan in 'anant naa naw chhuga' but could not find. Can you pin point in which chhuga is this particular part.
In that particular part there is mention of 'chaar kaniyaa' means four women but you have mentioned the names of four men belong to each jug, is this your interpretation? Some one can interpret 4 satti women also!!
What is the meaning of 'eek aradh ang', who is this person?
Your statement is " Hence Pir Hasan Kabirdeen's mission and purpose has
NO CONNECTION WITH PREVIOUS JUGAS". But piratan continued after Pir Sadrdin and will continue till end of kaljug. If jug had changed then surely
new piratan system should have been in place.
shivaathervedi wrote:I tried to locate the above part of ginan in 'anant naa naw chhuga' but could not find. Can you pin point in which chhuga is this particular part.
In that particular part there is mention of 'chaar kaniyaa' means four women but you have mentioned the names of four men belong to each jug, is this your interpretation? Some one can interpret 4 satti women also!!
What is the meaning of 'eek aradh ang', who is this person?
Your statement is " Hence Pir Hasan Kabirdeen's mission and purpose has
NO CONNECTION WITH PREVIOUS JUGAS". But piratan continued after Pir Sadrdin and will continue till end of kaljug. If jug had changed then surely
new piratan system should have been in place.
My apologies for not providing the link.
In Ismailism all murids are considered as women and the Imam is the Husband (either potential or actual). Those murids who have matured spiritually and have had the Deedar of the Imam are considered married and under the bliss and protection of the Imam. Then there are unmarried women yearning for the marriage (spiritual).
Pir Hassan Kabirdeen describes the eternal mission of the four 'women' - Pahelaaj, Harishchsndra, jujesthan and Pir Sadardeen as saviours of their respective Yugas.
Pir Hassan Kabirdeen refers to the 4 women of the previous Yugas as having completed their mission and are fully merged into the Spirit with their respective liberated ones - 5, 7, 9, 12 crores. However he considers himself half-bodied having not completed his mission of the anant which is ongoing in the Ferta Velaa.
Piratan still continues in the Fertaa Velaa, but with a Master who is different than the 4 masters of the previous 4 Yugas. Our Master is Pir Hassan Kabirdeen whose responsibility is for the countless.
YA ALI MADAD.
In articulated words of mine.Remembering a farman of IMAM SMS in a stern tone to stop digging or to close the spin factory by then bhagats,scholars of past 9 avataar ,but to learn the the 10th avataar of ALI portrayed spiritually in Ginans of the selected Pir/Pirs.
By digging with rational mind unless one is not a strong haqiqti is futile and useless to acknowledge & endorse mythologies of many God & Goddess,God as animal,black magic mantras which defies the basic belief of Islam.
BANDH KARO YE VEDA GRANTH KI DUKAN
KHOL DO ALI ALI KI ONLINE AUR OFFLINE HYPER DUKAN.
Abhai,
Yes I can tell the the names of that four sati, as written by our pirs.
The ginan hater,
Will you please stop to put your worthless comments and stop criticnizing ginas, Bhagats and waezins.
In your post nothing new , we all love Ali but there are many more things besides Ali, vohi gisi piti record bajana chhod de, aour line pe aa ja, buddhu
shivaathervedi wrote:I tried to locate the above part of ginan in 'anant naa naw chhuga' but could not find. Can you pin point in which chhuga is this particular part.
In that particular part there is mention of 'chaar kaniyaa' means four women but you have mentioned the names of four men belong to each jug, is this your interpretation? Some one can interpret 4 satti women also!!
What is the meaning of 'eek aradh ang', who is this person?
Your statement is " Hence Pir Hasan Kabirdeen's mission and purpose has
NO CONNECTION WITH PREVIOUS JUGAS". But piratan continued after Pir Sadrdin and will continue till end of kaljug. If jug had changed then surely
new piratan system should have been in place.
My apologies for not providing the link.
In Ismailism all murids are considered as women and the Imam is the Husband (either potential or actual). Those murids who have matured spiritually and have had the Deedar of the Imam are considered married and under the bliss and protection of the Imam. Then there are unmarried women yearning for the marriage (spiritual).
Pir Hassan Kabirdeen describes the eternal mission of the four 'women' - Pahelaaj, Harishchsndra, jujesthan and Pir Sadardeen as saviours of their respective Yugas.
Pir Hassan Kabirdeen refers to the 4 women of the previous Yugas as having completed their mission and are fully merged into the Spirit with their respective liberated ones - 5, 7, 9, 12 crores. However he considers himself half-bodied having not completed his mission of the anant which is ongoing in the Ferta Velaa.
Piratan still continues in the Fertaa Velaa, but with a Master who is different than the 4 masters of the previous 4 Yugas. Our Master is Pir Hassan Kabirdeen whose responsibility is for the countless.
There are scores of parts missing in the ginan book provided to me named 'ANANT AKHARO AND ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA". When I compared 'ANANT AKHARO 500 PARTS' on Heritage ginan section, I found at least 94 parts are missing in that book published by Tariqa Board Karachi in 1996. Also many parts are missing in 'ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA'. The parts you have mentioned are also missing in Chhuga 7 and 8.
In KALJUG there are so far 50 pirs as mentioned. I wander in previous jugs, were there only one pir at a time for whole jug of hundreds of thousands of years!!
In Chhuga 7 & 8, there is no mention of piratan discontinued after Pir Sadardin and a new cycle of Piratn started.
In Sanskrit, Hindi, Sindhi, Gujrati, Punjabi, Farsi poetry (in Ishqiyya poetry)
lover mostly consider himself as woman, naari, kanaya, sati means down to earth, humble, nothing, weak ready to die for beloved. I think pirs have shown their sentiments being as abla naari.
It is said that there have been twenty-eight Vyasas before the present Vyasa-Krishna Dvaipayana took his birth at the end of Dvapara Yuga. Krishna Dvaipayana was born of Parasara Rishi through the Matsyakanya-Satyavathi Devi-under some peculiar and wonderful circumstances. Parasara was a great Jnani and one of the supreme authorities on astrology and his book Parasara Hora is still a textbook on astrology. He has also written a Smriti known as Parasara Smriti which is held in such high esteem that it is quoted by our present-day writers on sociology and ethics. Parasara came to know that a child, conceived at a particular Ghatika or moment of time, would be born as the greatest man of the age. Once Parasara was travelling in a boat and he spoke to the boatman about the nearing of that auspicious time. The boatman had a daughter who was of age and awaiting marriage. He was impressed with the sanctity and greatness of the Rishi and offered his daughter in marriage to Parasara. Vyasa was born of this union and his birth is said to be due to the blessing of Lord Siva Himself who blessed the union of a sage with a Jnani of the highest order, although of a low caste.
At a very tender age Vyasa gave out to his parents the secret of his life that he should go to the forest and do Akhanda Tapas. His mother at first did not agree, but later gave permission on one important condition that he should appear before her whenever she wished for his presence. This itself shows how far-sighted the parents and the son were. Puranas say that Vyasa took initiation at the hands of his twenty-first Guru, sage Vasudeva. He studied the Shastras under sages Sanaka and Sanandana and others. He arranged the Vedas for the good of mankind and wrote the Brahma Sutras for the quick and easy understanding of the Srutis; he also wrote the Mahabharata to enable women, Sudras and other people of lesser intellect to understand the highest knowledge in the easiest way. Vyasa wrote the eighteen Puranas and established the system of teaching them through Upakhyanas or discourses.
Vyasa is considered by all Hindus as a Chiranjivi, one who is still living and roaming throughout the world for the well-being of his devotees (there are 7 chiranjivis). It is said that he appears to the true and the faithful and that Jagadguru Sankaracharya had his Darshan in the house of sage Mandana Misra and that he appeared to many others as well. Thus, in short, Vyasa lives for the welfare of the world.
Festival of Guru Purnima, is dedicated to him, and also known as the Vyasa Purnima as it is the day, which is believed to be his birthday
Vyasa literally means “Compiler” is a central and revered figure in most Hindu traditions. He is also sometimes called Veda Vyāsa,"the one who classified the Vedas" or Krishna Dvaipāyana (referring to his complexion and birthplace). He is the author of the Mahabharata, as well as a character in it. He is considered to be the scribe of both the Vedas and Puranas. According to the Vishnu Purana, "Veda Vyasa" is a title applied to the compilers of the Vedas who are avatars of Vishnu; 28 people with this title have appeared so far.
Vyasa appears for the first time as the compiler of, and an important character in, the Mahabharata. It is said that he was the expansion of the god Vishnu who came in Dwapara yuga to make all the Vedic knowledge available in written form which was available in spoken form at that time. He was the son of Satyavati, daughter of the fisherman Dusharaj, and the wandering sage Parashara (who is credited with being the author of the first Purana: Vishnu Purana). He was born on an island in the river Yamuna. There are two different views regarding his birthplace. One of the views suggests that he was born in the Tanahun district in western Nepal, other view suggests that he was born on Island in Yamuna river near Kalpi, Uttar Pradesh, India. Vyasa was dark-complexioned and hence may be called by the name Krishna, and also the name Dwaipayana, meaning 'island-born'.
Vyasa was grandfather to the Kauravas and Pandavas. Dhritarashtra, Pandu, Veedura and Suka were the sons of Vyasa. Dhritarashtra's mother was Ambalika and Pandu's mother was Ambika. The third son, Veedura, was born to a serving maid Parishrami. His another son Suka was born of his wife Pinjala. Vyasa is believed to have lived on the banks of Ganga in modern-day Uttarakhand. The place was also the abode of sage Vashishta along with Pandavas, the five brothers of Mahabharata.
In the first book of the Mahābhārata, it is described that Vyasa asked Ganesha to aid him in writing the text, but Ganesha imposed a condition that he would do so only if Vyasa narrated the story without pause. To which Vyasa then made a counter-condition that Ganesha must understand the verse before he transcribed it. Thus Vyasa narrated the entire Mahābhārata and all the Upanishads and the 18 Puranas, while Lord Ganesha wrote.
Vyasa's Jaya, the core of Mahābhārata is structured in the form of a dialogue between Dhritarashtra (the Kuru king and the father of the Kauravas, who opposed the Pāndavas in the Kurukshetra War) and Sanjaya, his adviser and chariot driver. Sanjaya narrates the particulars of Kurukshetra War, fought in eighteen days, chronologically. Dhritarāshtra at times asks a question and doubts, sometimes lamenting, knowing of the destruction caused by the war to his sons, friends and kinsmen.
Sanjaya, in the beginning, gives a description of the various continents of the Earth, numerous planets, and focuses on the Indian subcontinent. Large and elaborate lists are given, describing hundreds of kingdoms, tribes, provinces, cities, towns, villages, rivers, mountains, forests etc. of the (ancient) Indian subcontinent (Bhārata Varsha). Additionally, he gives descriptions of the military formations adopted by each side on each day, the death of individual heroes and the details of the war-races. Eighteen chapters of Vyasa's Jaya constitutes the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred text of the Hindus. Thus, Jaya deals with diverse subjects like geography, history, warfare, religion and morality.
Vidura literally means skilled, intelligent or wise, is one of the central characters in the Mahabharata, a major Hindu epic. He is described as the prime minister of Hastinapur and also the uncle of Pandavas and Kauravas.
As per the Mahabharata, Vidura is half-brother to the kings Dhritarashtra and Pandu of Hastinapura, born the son of the sage Vyasa and Parishrami, the maid to the queens Ambika and Ambalika of the city. By some accounts, he was an incarnation of the god of death and justice Yama Dharma Raja, who had been cursed by the sage Mandavya for punishing the latter more harshly than his transgression warranted.
Both Ambika and Ambalika were wives of King Vichitravirya of Hastinapura, who died childless. Anxious to ensure the continuation of the royal lineage, Vichitravirya's mother Satyavati called another of her sons, the ascetic Vyasa, to bestow motherhood upon the two widowed queens. Vyasa, as a hermit practicing severe austerities, was unpleasant and even fearsome in appearance, so much so that Ambika shut her eyes tight when she saw him, and her sister Ambalika went pale with fear. Vyasa informed his mother that as a result, the sons they bore would respectively be blind (Dhritarashtra), and pale (Pandu).
Fearing that no such child would be a worthy heir, Satyavati asked Vyasa to grant another son to Ambika. Still fearful of Vyasa, Ambika sent the maid, Parishrami, to Vyasa. This dutiful lady was not frightened by Vyasa's appearance and bore a normal, healthy, son. Thus, VIDURA was born.
Vidura was raised and educated by Bhishma as the half-brother of Dhritarashtra and Pandu. However, since neither of his parents were of the royal blood, he was made counselor to his brothers, the kings, rather than a king himself. When Satyavati asked about her grandchildren's strengths, Bhishma praised Dhristarashtra's strength, Pandu's military prowess, and Vidura's intellect. When time came for a crown prince to be chosen, it was Vidura who brought up the elephant in the room-namely that despite being older, Dhritarashtra's blindness made him an unfit king. Vidura then supported Pandu's election to the kingship, much to the relief of Hastinapur's prime minister. Despite knowing that he was right, and even agreeing with the verdict, Dhritarashtra held a little bit of resentment towards Vidura for this incident.
Upon Pandu's abdication and the blind Dhritarashtra's succession, Vidura took on the reins of government for all practical purposes, guiding his brother's government until Duryodhana came of age, when he was consigned to a secondary role.
shivaathervedi wrote:
There are scores of parts missing in the ginan book provided to me named 'ANANT AKHARO AND ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA". When I compared 'ANANT AKHARO 500 PARTS' on Heritage ginan section, I found at least 94 parts are missing in that book published by Tariqa Board Karachi in 1996. Also many parts are missing in 'ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA'. The parts you have mentioned are also missing in Chhuga 7 and 8..
I personally think it is wrong to tamper with any work of art. You distort the message by doing so. There is an inherent misunderstanding that Ginans contain Hindu elements and hence any allusion to Hindu terminologies or personalities are eliminated.
shivaathervedi wrote:
In KALJUG there are so far 50 pirs as mentioned. I wander in previous jugs, were there only one pir at a time for whole jug of hundreds of thousands of years!!.
In Kaljug there have been many peers, including those before Prophet Muhammad. I would consider all Pirs after Pir Hassan Kabirdeen as being Pirs of Farta Velaa. There has to be a Pir always, so Piratan has continued since the beginning. There is a verse from the Ginan: Sab Ghatt Saamee Maaro Bharpur Betthaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23110 which states:
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
Only one Peer has been mentioned for the other Jugas as a symbol of the presence of Piratan in that age. It does not mean that only one Pir was there.
shivaathervedi wrote:
In Chhuga 7 & 8, there is no mention of piratan discontinued after Pir Sadardin and a new cycle of Piratn started.
Actually Piratan never discontinued, however the authority for the salvation of souls changed from Peer Sadareen to Peer Hassan Kabirdeen.
Before the granting of the authority to Peer Hassan Kabirdeen, there was an 'iron wall' erected preventing Peer Sadardeen from geeting Deedar. This was an indication of the ascent of Peer Hassan Kabirdeen as the Master of the countless which is different than Piratan.
In that sense Pir Hassan Kabirdeen is alive spiritually to save his souls although he is not the present Pir.
shivaathervedi wrote:
There are scores of parts missing in the ginan book provided to me named 'ANANT AKHARO AND ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA". When I compared 'ANANT AKHARO 500 PARTS' on Heritage ginan section, I found at least 94 parts are missing in that book published by Tariqa Board Karachi in 1996. Also many parts are missing in 'ANANT NA NAV CHHUGA'. The parts you have mentioned are also missing in Chhuga 7 and 8..
I personally think it is wrong to tamper with any work of art. You distort the message by doing so. There is an inherent misunderstanding that Ginans contain Hindu elements and hence any allusion to Hindu terminologies or personalities are eliminated.
shivaathervedi wrote:
In KALJUG there are so far 50 pirs as mentioned. I wander in previous jugs, were there only one pir at a time for whole jug of hundreds of thousands of years!!.
In Kaljug there have been many peers, including those before Prophet Muhammad. I would consider all Pirs after Pir Hassan Kabirdeen as being Pirs of Farta Velaa. There has to be a Pir always, so Piratan has continued since the beginning. There is a verse from the Ginan: Sab Ghatt Saamee Maaro Bharpur Betthaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23110 which states:
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
Only one Peer has been mentioned for the other Jugas as a symbol of the presence of Piratan in that age. It does not mean that only one Pir was there.
shivaathervedi wrote:
In Chhuga 7 & 8, there is no mention of piratan discontinued after Pir Sadardin and a new cycle of Piratn started.
Actually Piratan never discontinued, however the authority for the salvation of souls changed from Peer Sadareen to Peer Hassan Kabirdeen.
Before the granting of the authority to Peer Hassan Kabirdeen, there was an 'iron wall' erected preventing Peer Sadardeen from geeting Deedar. This was an indication of the ascent of Peer Hassan Kabirdeen as the Master of the countless which is different than Piratan.
In that sense Pir Hassan Kabirdeen is alive spiritually to save his souls although he is not the present Pir.
From your statement it looks like you are blaming me as I am responsible or liable for missing parts. I did not distort any thing just gave information. I have nothing to do with publishing authority of Tariqa Karachi. You over looked the reference of Heritage I gave. Hope this will clear the air.
For research or writing a thesis or dissertation one has to come up with proper references. Appreciate if you mention the names of pirs in past jugs if you know.
Farta vella is not considered as jug. Vela represents any time where as jug is extended continuous time spread over centuries and millennium.
If only one pir has been mentioned for the other jugs as symbol then same rule should be applied for the Kaljug also.
When you say piratan never discontinued then why are you stitching Farta Vela with Kaljug. When piratan noor is same then there is no difference in pirs. Piratan Noor of pir Sadardin is same as piratan Noor of pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Authority of pirs remain the same. Iron wall has nothing to play part in authority of pirs. Noor e Piratan is merged with Noor e Imamat in current age.
shivaathervedi wrote:
From your statement it looks like you are blaming me as I am responsible or liable for missing parts. I did not distort any thing just gave information. I have nothing to do with publishing authority of Tariqa Karachi. You over looked the reference of Heritage I gave. Hope this will clear the air..
Of course the criticism was directed at those who published the truncated version.
shivaathervedi wrote:
For research or writing a thesis or dissertation one has to come up with proper references. Appreciate if you mention the names of pirs in past jugs if you know..
That kind of information is virtually impossible to get! But doctrinally the line of Piratan is perpetual as per Ginans.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Farta vella is not considered as jug. Vela represents any time where as jug is extended continuous time spread over centuries and millennium..
And that is what Farta Velaa is. It is bigger than the 4 Yugas combined in terms of the number of souls. Hence it will extend to milleniums ahead.
shivaathervedi wrote:
If only one pir has been mentioned for the other jugs as symbol then same rule should be applied for the Kaljug also..
For Kaljug there is information about the lineage of Piratan, so we can list the Pirs; but for the other Jugs information is impossible to obtain and hence one cannot list the Pirs of those periods.
shivaathervedi wrote:
When you say piratan never discontinued then why are you stitching Farta Vela with Kaljug. When piratan noor is same then there is no difference in pirs. Piratan Noor of pir Sadardin is same as piratan Noor of pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Authority of pirs remain the same. Iron wall has nothing to play part in authority of pirs. Noor e Piratan is merged with Noor e Imamat in current age.
I am not stitching Farta Velaa with Kaljug, on the contrary I am saying that it is separate from Kaljug.
The "iron wall" is important in this context. Pir Sadardeen was unable to realize the status of Pir Hassan Kabirdeen when he was a child and hence when he considered him a minor an 'iron wall" was erected indicating a serious ignorance on the part of the Pir - that Pir Hasan Kabirdeen was the Master of the Farta Velaa. This became apparent after Pir Hassan Kabirdeen was bestowed with the title of the Saviour of the countless. Pir Sadardeen congratulated Pir Hassan Kabirdeen on the appointment.
The whole episode is mentioned in the Anant Akhado which can be referenced in this site from verses 37 onwards:
shivaathervedi wrote:
From your statement it looks like you are blaming me as I am responsible or liable for missing parts. I did not distort any thing just gave information. I have nothing to do with publishing authority of Tariqa Karachi. You over looked the reference of Heritage I gave. Hope this will clear the air..
Of course the criticism was directed at those who published the truncated version.
shivaathervedi wrote:
For research or writing a thesis or dissertation one has to come up with proper references. Appreciate if you mention the names of pirs in past jugs if you know..
That kind of information is virtually impossible to get! But doctrinally the line of Piratan is perpetual as per Ginans.
shivaathervedi wrote:
Farta vella is not considered as jug. Vela represents any time where as jug is extended continuous time spread over centuries and millennium..
And that is what Farta Velaa is. It is bigger than the 4 Yugas combined in terms of the number of souls. Hence it will extend to milleniums ahead.
shivaathervedi wrote:
If only one pir has been mentioned for the other jugs as symbol then same rule should be applied for the Kaljug also..
For Kaljug there is information about the lineage of Piratan, so we can list the Pirs; but for the other Jugs information is impossible to obtain and hence one cannot list the Pirs of those periods.
shivaathervedi wrote:
When you say piratan never discontinued then why are you stitching Farta Vela with Kaljug. When piratan noor is same then there is no difference in pirs. Piratan Noor of pir Sadardin is same as piratan Noor of pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Authority of pirs remain the same. Iron wall has nothing to play part in authority of pirs. Noor e Piratan is merged with Noor e Imamat in current age.
I am not stitching Farta Velaa with Kaljug, on the contrary I am saying that it is separate from Kaljug.
The "iron wall" is important in this context. Pir Sadardeen was unable to realize the status of Pir Hassan Kabirdeen when he was a child and hence when he considered him a minor an 'iron wall" was erected indicating a serious ignorance on the part of the Pir - that Pir Hasan Kabirdeen was the Master of the Farta Velaa. This became apparent after Pir Hassan Kabirdeen was bestowed with the title of the Saviour of the countless. Pir Sadardeen congratulated Pir Hassan Kabirdeen on the appointment.
The whole episode is mentioned in the Anant Akhado which can be referenced in this site from verses 37 onwards:
You wrote,"Farta vela is bigger than 4 yugs combined in number of the souls"
Numbers play a great role in Hindu Mythology and ginans. In your opinion how big can be the the Farta vela (years) and how many billions the souls be liberated. I am not challenging the authority of pirs but after pir Hasan Kabiruddin there are 23 pirs after him. Pir Hasan Kabiruddin passed away in
871 AH.
I wander with all might, authority and spirituality pir Sadardin was ignorant of the spiritual capabilities of his 9/10 years old son. I can not digest this. In other words you are saying status of pir Hasan Kabiruddin is higher than pir Sadruddin. Again I say, Iron Wall story is related to bandagi and it has nothing to do with the authority of piratan.
All the persons who assemble in Jagaran of Mahamai beleave that without the Amar Katha of Tara Rani Jagaran is not considered complete . This is the story of Two sisters of ancient time " Nanda & Sunanda" Sunanda was too naughty that she bought a meat for Nanda to break the "Ekadashi Fast" on that Nanda cursed her to become lizard in next birth. Nanda was bought upas "Tara" as daughter of Maharaja Sparsh. Sunanda was thinking of to get rid of Lizard life in Maharishi Bhosh Ashram. After saving the life of Maharishies she was again cursed to born in Kings family and bought up by Shudhras. She was bought upas "Rukman". Tara was married with "Harish Chandra" Maharaja of Haipur. Rukman was also married with sweeper of Haripur.
Tara reconsied Rukman that she was her sister (Sunanda) of previous life. Tara got a son. Rukman did not have any child. She promissed Mahakali she forget to do the Jagaran. One day her child got sick then she got remembered that she had forgotten to do the Jagaran in Rukmans house. Maharaja Harish Chandra did not like that. She went to perform Jagaran without telling anybody. Maharaja was also went behind her. He saw there that Tara was taking the parshad of Meat & Wine. Raja got angry and asked her to saw the passhad. Which was turned into flowers & milk. He was surprised to see the miracle and asked Tara how it happened. Then Tara answered that for this miracle you have to sacrifice your loving sons & horse.
There are lots of legends and stories in the Indian books and traditions. The only ones we believe in, are those validated by our Ginans, Granths of Farmans.
shivaathervedi wrote:
You are right because CHUK FANDHA VELA IN GINAN IS USED FOR KALJUG.
Therefore Farta vela is same as kaljug and not a separate jug. Problem solved.
What makes you say that? Provide an example from a Ginan which states that chuk Fandh Velaa is kaljug.
Last edited by kmaherali on Wed May 04, 2016 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote,"Farta vela is bigger than 4 yugs combined in number of the souls"
Numbers play a great role in Hindu Mythology and ginans. In your opinion how big can be the the Farta vela (years) and how many billions the souls be liberated. I am not challenging the authority of pirs but after pir Hasan Kabiruddin there are 23 pirs after him. Pir Hasan Kabiruddin passed away in
871 AH..
You must understand the difference between Piratan and the Mastership/Saviour/Mukhi of the souls. Piratan is a role played within our tariqah for a specific time. Mastership is a much broader role in space and time. When we say that Pir Sadardeen was the Master of the 12 crores. It does not mean all the 12 crores lived in this world during his lifetime. It means souls that had lived over the Kaljug period and then they were as ruhanis in the spiritual world. Pir Sadardeen was able to liberate the souls through his Ibadat. The 12 crores where not only Ismailis but others as well including non-humans!
The Masters are not always Pirs. Raja Harishchandra was not born in Satpanth tradition but became an Ismaili through Queen Tararani. He then advanced spiritually and was able to save 7 crores along with him.
shivaathervedi wrote:
I wander with all might, authority and spirituality pir Sadardin was ignorant of the spiritual capabilities of his 9/10 years old son. I can not digest this. In other words you are saying status of pir Hasan Kabiruddin is higher than pir Sadruddin. Again I say, Iron Wall story is related to bandagi and it has nothing to do with the authority of piratan.
There is a deeper understanding of the "iron wall" incidence than what appears at the surface. The "iron wall" was an indication of a profound change that occured in the heavenly domain. It signified a change of the Mastership from Pir Sadardeen to Pir Hassan Kabirdeen heralding into the Farta Velaa. When the "iron wall" was lifted and Pir Sadadeen witnessed the granting of the authority to Pir Hassan Kabirdeen, he congratulated him and called him Guru -teacher!:
Aashaajee Gur Bhramaa ji utthi karee aaveeyaa
aavyaa te Gur Hassan Shah ke paas-jee
dhan dhan karannee Guru-jee tamaaree
dhan so rakheesare jaanneeyo............Haree anant...49
Oh Lord Pir Sadardin got up and came to Pir Hassan Kabirdin
Many congratulations for your deeds Oh teacher
Happy and fortunate is the believer who recognises you
Haree You are eternal...
Tara reconsied Rukman that she was her sister (Sunanda) of previous life. Tara got a son. Rukman did not have any child. She promissed Mahakali she forget to do the Jagaran. One day her child got sick then she got remembered that she had forgotten to do the Jagaran in Rukmans house. Maharaja Harish Chandra did not like that. She went to perform Jagaran without telling anybody. Maharaja was also went behind her. He saw there that Tara was taking the parshad of Meat & Wine. Raja got angry and asked her to saw the passhad. Which was turned into flowers & milk. He was surprised to see the miracle and asked Tara how it happened. Then Tara answered that for this miracle you have to sacrifice your loving sons & horse.
The Ismaili interpretation of the story is related in the Ginan: Amar Te Aayo More Shahji Jo E-Mu Allaah - Translation http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22821
There are two ginans which both tells the story ofof Tara Rani, one is small and the other one is big. The second ginan start with
" Eji shejaldiye betha Raja Harichandra Emu Allah" I think
shivaathervedi wrote:
You are right because CHUK FANDHA VELA IN GINAN IS USED FOR KALJUG.
Therefore Farta vela is same as kaljug and not a separate jug. Problem solved.
What makes you say that? Provide an example from a Ginan which states that chuk Fandh Velaa is kaljug.
JI RE BHAI RE TENEY CHUK FANDHA VELA MA(N)HE RACHANA KIDHI
TAAREY NOOR SHAH GHAREY AAVIYA JI
SYED IMAM SHAH
Translation from the book 'GINAN E SHARIF', volume 10, published first edition in 2008 and second edition in 2012 from Karachi.
O brother He created in KALJUG, then reached at house of Imam Noor Shah.
shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote,"Farta vela is bigger than 4 yugs combined in number of the souls"
Numbers play a great role in Hindu Mythology and ginans. In your opinion how big can be the the Farta vela (years) and how many billions the souls be liberated. I am not challenging the authority of pirs but after pir Hasan Kabiruddin there are 23 pirs after him. Pir Hasan Kabiruddin passed away in
871 AH..
You must understand the difference between Piratan and the Mastership/Saviour/Mukhi of the souls. Piratan is a role played within our tariqah for a specific time. Mastership is a much broader role in space and time. When we say that Pir Sadardeen was the Master of the 12 crores. It does not mean all the 12 crores lived in this world during his lifetime. It means souls that had lived over the Kaljug period and then they were as ruhanis in the spiritual world. Pir Sadardeen was able to liberate the souls through his Ibadat. The 12 crores where not only Ismailis but others as well including non-humans!
The Masters are not always Pirs. Raja Harishchandra was not born in Satpanth tradition but became an Ismaili through Queen Tararani. He then advanced spiritually and was able to save 7 crores along with him.
shivaathervedi wrote:
I wander with all might, authority and spirituality pir Sadardin was ignorant of the spiritual capabilities of his 9/10 years old son. I can not digest this. In other words you are saying status of pir Hasan Kabiruddin is higher than pir Sadruddin. Again I say, Iron Wall story is related to bandagi and it has nothing to do with the authority of piratan.
There is a deeper understanding of the "iron wall" incidence than what appears at the surface. The "iron wall" was an indication of a profound change that occured in the heavenly domain. It signified a change of the Mastership from Pir Sadardeen to Pir Hassan Kabirdeen heralding into the Farta Velaa. When the "iron wall" was lifted and Pir Sadadeen witnessed the granting of the authority to Pir Hassan Kabirdeen, he congratulated him and called him Guru -teacher!:
Aashaajee Gur Bhramaa ji utthi karee aaveeyaa
aavyaa te Gur Hassan Shah ke paas-jee
dhan dhan karannee Guru-jee tamaaree
dhan so rakheesare jaanneeyo............Haree anant...49
Oh Lord Pir Sadardin got up and came to Pir Hassan Kabirdin
Many congratulations for your deeds Oh teacher
Happy and fortunate is the believer who recognises you
Haree You are eternal...
Pir Hassan Kabirdeen as the Master is still alive!
Now you jumped from piratan to mastership. From your explanation what I understood is that status of masters are higher than pirs!!
In Ismaili Ta'ilmaat first comes Imam then pirs and then masters and mukhis.
Now your counting include not only human souls but vegetative and mineral souls also to add up to 12 crores. In my assertion those are 12 crore human souls.
You wrote 'iron wall incident happened in heavenly domain. What iron as a mineral has to play part in spiritual world? Iron wall was a worldly incident because " chha maas chha din " phrase is used in ginans and it is related to bandagi.
Draupadi is one of the most important female characters in the Hindu epic, Mahabharata. According to the epic, she is the daughter of Drupada, King of Panchala and also became the common wife of the five Pandavas.
Draupadi had five sons; one by each of the Pandavas: Prativindhya from Yudhishthira, Sutasoma from Bheema, Srutakarma from Arjuna, Satanika from Nakula, and Srutasena from Sahadeva.
Draupadi is considered as one of the Panch-Kanyas or Five Virgins.
Like other epic characters, Draupadi is referred to by multiple names in the Mahabharata. Her names are as follows:
Draupadi - daughter of Drupada.
Krishnaa - one who has a dark complexion.
Panchali - one from the land of Panchala.
Yajnaseni - one born from a Yajna or fire-sacrifice.
Drupadakanya - the daughter of Drupada.
Sairandhri - an expert maid (her assumed name during her second exile in which she worked as Virat kingdom's queen Sudeshna's hair-stylist).
Mahabharati - great wife of the five descendents of Bharata.
Parshati - the granddaughter of Prishata.
Nitayuvani - one who never becomes old.
Malini - one who makes garlands.
Yojanagandha - she whose fragrance can be felt for miles.( Yojananagandha is the name of Satyavati, the fisherman's daughter, given to her by the sage Parasara. She was earlier known as Matsyagandha because of the odour of fish she carrried. The Adiparva of the Mahavarata describes how Maharshi Parasara was attracted by Satyavati's beauty while sailing in her boat in the river Yamuna and mated with her in the boat. This unison of the couple eventually led to the birth of the sage Krushna Dwaipayana Vyasa, the author of the epic Mahabharata. Satyavati or Matsagandha was renamed by Parasara as Yojanagandha meaning 'one whose fragrance could be felt from miles (Yojana) afar.)
King Drupada of Panchala had been defeated by the Pandava prince Arjuna on behalf of Drona, who subsequently took half his kingdom. To gain revenge on Drona, he performed a yajña to obtain a means of besting him. Draupadi emerged as a beautiful dark-skinned young woman together after her sibling Dhrishtadyumna from the sacrificial fire. When she emerged from the fire, a heavenly voice said that she would bring about the destruction of the Kuru line.
Arjuna wins Draupadi in her Swayamvara;
Drupada intended to wed his daughter to Arjuna. Upon hearing of the Pandavas' supposed death at Varnavata, he set up a Swayamvara contest for Draupadi to choose her husband from the competitive contest. At the Swayamvara, almost all the assorted monarchs were unable to complete the challenge. Only Karna, the king of Anga was able to wield and string the bow but Draupadi refused him to take part in the competition, rejecting him for being a mere "suta-putra", the son of a charioteer. Later the Pandavas showed up incognito, Arjuna in disguise wins Draupadi's hand. When Draupadi arrives with the five Pandavas to meet Kunti, they inform her that Arjuna won a prize at a competition, to which Kunti says, "Share the prize". This motherly command leads the five brothers to become the five husbands of Draupadi.
With the Pandavas' survival revealed, a succession crisis was started. Upon the news of Yudhishthira's death, the title of crown prince had fallen to Duryodhana. Dhritrashtra invites the Pandavas to Hasthinapur and proposes that the kingdom be divided. The Pandavas are assigned the wasteland Khandavprastha, referred to as unreclaimed desert. Drupada becomes enraged at the perceived insult towards his daughter; at Yudhishthira's prodding, Draupadi pacifies her father despite her own misgivings. With the help of Krishna, Pandavas rebuilt Khandavprastha into Indraprastha. The crown jewel of the country was the main palace, built in a valley.
Duryodhana's insult;
Indraprastha was built at the site of the Khandava forest. The pride of buildings was the "Palace of Illusions", and this was where Duryodhana and his entourage explored during Hastinapur's attending of the Rajasuya Yagna.
The moment Duryodhana entered the palace he encountered an atmosphere of mystery. The courtyard was divided in two parts. The surface of one part appeared to ripple like the surface of a lake. The surface of the other part appeared solid as granite flooring and when Duryodhana stepped on the apparently solid part of the courtyard, there was a splash and Duryodhana found himself waist deep in water, drenched from head to foot. When Draupadi and her maids saw this from the balcony they were amused. Duryodhana felt extremely insulted that Draupadi and her maids saw his embarrassing predicament. Draupadi joked "Andhasya Putra Andhaha" meaning "a blind man's (referring to Dhritrashtra) son is blind"
In some versions of the Mahabharatha, Bhima, Arjuna, and the twin brothers alongside their retinues witness Duryodhana's fall and laughed with their servants. Some say the popular insult of a "blindman's son" is believed to be a later addition. Duryodhana felt insulted by the behaviours of the four Pandavas, stoking his hatred of them.
The game of dice;
Draupadi is presented in a parcheesi game where Yudhishthira has gambled away all his material wealth.
This key incident is often considered to mark a definitive moment in the story of Mahabharata. It is one of the driving reasons that ultimately led to the Kurukshetra war.
Together with his maternal uncle Shakuni, Duryodhana conspired to call on the Pandavas to Hastinapur and win their kingdoms in a game of gambling. The plan's architect, Shakuni had a dice that would never disobey his will. The idea was that Shakuni would play against Yudhishthira and win at the gambling table. Before the game Bhishma was told to frame the rules as he was the oldest, wisest, and strongest of all men in that court. He ordered all women to go away from the court, when the game was played (except some maid, who occasionally brought refreshments to the people at the court). He told that the loser is the one who loses all of the wealth and one can stake only the wealth to which he has right. As the game proceeded, Yudhishthira lost everything one-by-one. Having lost all material wealth, he went on to put his brothers at stake, and lost them too. Ultimately he put himself at stake, and lost again. All the Pandavas were now the servants of the Kauravas. But for Duryodhana, the humiliation of the Pandavas was not complete. He prods Yudhishthira that he has not lost everything yet; Yudhishthira still has Draupadi with him and if he wishes he can win everything back by putting Draupadi at stake. Inebriated by the game, Yudhishthira, to the horror of everybody present, puts Draupadi up as a bet for the next round. Playing the next round, Shakuni wins. Draupadi was horrified after hearing that she was staked in the game and now is a slave for Duryodhana. Draupadi questions Yudhishthira's right on her as he had lost himself first and she was still the queen. She refuses to present herself in court. Duryodhana, angry with Draupadi's behaviour, commands his younger brother Dushasana to bring her into the court, forcefully if he must. Dushasana grabs her by the hair and brings her into the court, dragging her by the hair.She is dragged to the court by the hair. Now in an emotional appeal to the elders present in the forum, Draupadi repeatedly questions the legality of the right of Yudhishthira to place her at stake.
In order to provoke the Pandavas further, Duryodhana bares and pats his thigh looking into Draupadi's eyes, implying that she should sit on his thigh. In rage Bhima vows in front of the entire assembly that he would break that thigh of Duryodhana, or accept being Duryodhana's slave for seven lifetimes. At this time Vikarna, a brother of Duryodhan asks the kings assembled in the court to answer the question of Draupadi. He gives his opinion that Draupadi is not won rightfully as Yudhishthira lost himself first before staking her. Besides Draupadi is the common wife of all Pandavas. Hearing these words, Karna gets angry and says that when Yudhishthira lost all his possession he also lost Draupadi as she includes his possession. Karna publicly called Draupadi a whore for being the wife of 5 men. As per Hindu scriptures, a women who have sexual relations with more than 3 men is called a whore. Earlier Draupadi insulted Karna during her swaymavara, which created a deep wound in his mind, resulting in him retaliating gravely. Draupadi had been mentioned by Shakuni and approved as a stake by the Pandavas that is why she is rightfully won. Besides the gods have ordained a maximum of three husband for a woman but as Draupadi has many husbands and according to shastras of the age, she can be considered a characterless woman. Bringing her in a court of men is not an surprising act whether she be attired or naked. Duryodhana orders Dushasana to disrobe Draupadi. Seeing her husbands' passivity, Draupadi prays to Krishna to protect her. A miracle occurs henceforward, which is popularly attributed to Krishna. As the Pandavas and the court looks away, Dushasana unwraps layers and layers of her sari. But as her sari keeps getting extended, everyone looks upon in awe, and Dushasana himself is forced to stop due to exhaustion. At this point, a furious Bhima vows to remove Dushasana's arm (that had held her hair) and to drink the blood from his chest, at the pain of not seeing his ancestors/entering heaven. This vow unsettles the entire court.Draupadi vows not to tie her hair until she has decorated it with the blood of Dushasana.
The only Kauravas who object to the disrobing of Draupadi in the court are Vikarna and Vidura. Vikarna appeals the assembly to answer the questions raised by Draupadi, but in vain. Vidura openly calls Duryodhana a snake and a demon, but after finding no support, even from his own brother, Vidura is helpless. Draupadi herself verbally eviscerates the entire court, threatening that once Drupada heard of his daughter's insult, he would tear Hastinapur to the ground. Just as she is about to curse the Kuru dynasty, she is interrupted by the queen mother Gandhari. Gandhari counsels Dhritarashtra to action. Also fearing retribution from Panchal, Dhritarashtra intervenes and grants Draupadi three boons. Draupadi in her first boon asks her husbands to be freed from bondage so her sons would not be called Dasas. In her second boon she asks for all the wealth Pandavas lost in the game of dice to be restored to them. When Dhritarashtra asks her to wish for the third boon she refuses by saying that it would be greedy to ask for more. Shakuni and Duryodhana later convince Dhritarashtra to invite Pandavas for a new game of dice, with modified rules. The loser here, would go for 12 years in exile and another one year of anonymity. Yudhishthira agrees and loses again. It was following the defeat in this new game that Pandavas were sent into exile for 13 years.
When her husbands retired from the world and went on their journey towards the Himalayas and Indra's heaven, she accompanied them, and was the first to fall on the journey. When Bhima asked Yudhishthira why Draupadi had fallen, Yudhishthira names Draupadi's partiality towards Arjuna as the reason.
On the remaining journey, the rest of the Pandavas all fall, with only Yudhishthira surviving. Once he reaches the gates of heaven, he questions his godly father, Dharma, why his noble brothers and wife had fallen, and states his desire to join them wherever they are. Eventually, he is taken to a palace where he sees his brothers and Draupadi. Draupadi is decked in garlands, "possessed of solar splendour". Sensing his puzzlement, Indra tells Yudhishthira that Draupadi was Sree incarnated, revealing the destiny of her birth.