Recycling of souls.

[Admin]

This section is on recycling of soul (whatever it means) , please stick to the subject.

[nuseri]

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.
If you are the elder brother of the house and taking care of the family.
one brother suddenly turns up claiming to be a family member.
he has cosmetic respect for your father but within himself he very much
suspects and dislike the father and try to poison others on status of the father of the family.
Would you keep him in the house or show him the DOOR.?
Hassan bin Sabbah eased out his son for the cause of ALI.
crushing serpent and not feeding milk is the first sign of afaithful defender of one father/ALI.
what is store for some members in this forum will reflect in last 7 year of fading away of physical life.
I have observed personally some Khojas who left Jamat and joined Al Isla in lure of money.
In a college of excellence if one make a primary school level a lecturer the end result is one word disaster.
that is what is seen in reality in Ummah.
this trend must not happen on this forum.
I need answers from Admin,shamsB,Agakhani,Ismaili103.
as for our kmaherali he is vintage of AVERAGE value at -350 years with copy paste of current affairs and -700 years data.
I appreciate it.He is like a vintage car/wine nevertheless useful.
getting impressed upon what was 1400 years back and 1000 yeas back is DISASTER if getting anchored in that period.
MHI in recent mulakat asked for solutions.Use your mind there and not copy paste of printed or stored data with no clue how to read and understand at desired level of the VARING LEVELS

[tret]

We can have multiple Mazhars of Allah at a given time. There is no issue about that. The only difference between Imamat and other Sufi Masters, is that Imams are born pure - they don't need to be purified by any other source - Light upon Light as though no fire touched it.

Do you even realize what you are saying? There's something really seriously wrong with your framework of belief. Let me put it differently so you realize.

According to you there's no difference between Mazhar of God and God.
Now you are saying there can be multiple Mazhar of God.
Logically, your conclusion is there can be multiple God.
You have a polytheistic belief, pal!!!! That's the reason it is very easy for a polytheist to consider anything or anyone as god. There's no way you can reconcile your belief with Islamic [monotheistic] believe system, let alone Ismaili's. Because, Shia Ismailis Theology regards the most radical view of Tawhid, then any other Abrahemic faith or any schools of thoughts within Islam. Even Sufi order falls short when it comes to Tawhid.

If you have a polytheist belief, I am totally fine with it. But, what you MUST do/say, is to clearly mention that what you say/preach is ONLY YOUR belief and opinion, and DO NOT represent Ismaili position in any ways.

I'd like to ask you the same question which shamsb failed to answer, do you understand Shia Theology, the way it has been thought by our own Imams and Hujjats?

[ShamsB]

We can have multiple Mazhars of Allah at a given time. There is no issue about that. The only difference between Imamat and other Sufi Masters, is that Imams are born pure - they don't need to be purified by any other source - Light upon Light as though no fire touched it.

Do you even realize what you are saying? There's something really seriously wrong with your framework of belief. Let me put it differently so you realize.

According to you there's no difference between Mazhar of God and God.
Now you are saying there can be multiple Mazhar of God.
Logically, your conclusion is there can be multiple God.
You have a polytheistic belief, pal!!!! That's the reason it is very easy for a polytheist to consider anything or anyone as god. There's no way you can reconcile your belief with Islamic [monotheistic] believe system, let alone Ismaili's. Because, Shia Ismailis Theology regards the most radical view of Tawhid, then any other Abrahemic faith or any schools of thoughts within Islam. Even Sufi order falls short when it comes to Tawhid.

If you have a polytheist belief, I am totally fine with it. But, what you MUST do/say, is to clearly mention that what you say/preach is ONLY YOUR belief and opinion, and DO NOT represent Ismaili position in any ways.

I'd like to ask you the same question which shamsb failed to answer, do you understand Shia Theology, the way it has been thought by our own Imams and Hujjats?

I accept Shia Theology as I understand it - taught by our Imams and Pirs.
I also accept that we are an esoteric Tariqah - which allow for multiple interpretations.

It's interesting how you and the various identities of Salimkhoja never post at the same time - but rather as one goes silent the other comes on to bolster the arguement.

Shams

[ShamsB]

We can have multiple Mazhars of Allah at a given time. There is no issue about that. The only difference between Imamat and other Sufi Masters, is that Imams are born pure - they don't need to be purified by any other source - Light upon Light as though no fire touched it.

Do you even realize what you are saying? There's something really seriously wrong with your framework of belief. Let me put it differently so you realize.

According to you there's no difference between Mazhar of God and God.
Now you are saying there can be multiple Mazhar of God.
Logically, your conclusion is there can be multiple God.
You have a polytheistic belief, pal!!!! That's the reason it is very easy for a polytheist to consider anything or anyone as god. There's no way you can reconcile your belief with Islamic [monotheistic] believe system, let alone Ismaili's. Because, Shia Ismailis Theology regards the most radical view of Tawhid, then any other Abrahemic faith or any schools of thoughts within Islam. Even Sufi order falls short when it comes to Tawhid.

If you have a polytheist belief, I am totally fine with it. But, what you MUST do/say, is to clearly mention that what you say/preach is ONLY YOUR belief and opinion, and DO NOT represent Ismaili position in any ways.

I'd like to ask you the same question which shamsb failed to answer, do you understand Shia Theology, the way it has been thought by our own Imams and Hujjats?

And in regards to this question - Tret - I would suggest you examine and study the schisms in the faith over the last 2 centuries - beginning with the Barbhai and then to the Khoja Shia Ithna Asheri Jamats, and see why they left the faith - don't read the legal stuff - read and the historical discussion. Read about Habib Ibrahim and the influence over Dewji of Mulla Kader Hussain and you will find at the heart of the conflict or the schism - being this whole discussion on the role and status of the Imam - and how misinterpretation or for following a different version of Shia Doctrine (the one you seem to espouse we follow) - one veers away from the Imam - and doesn't accept the role of the Imam.

Shams

[tret]

I accept Shia Theology as I understand it - taught by our Imams and Pirs.
I also accept that we are an esoteric Tariqah - which allow for multiple interpretations.

It's interesting how you and the various identities of Salimkhoja never post at the same time - but rather as one goes silent the other comes on to bolster the arguement.

Shams

So, are you suggesting Shia Theology is subjective? Would you care to elaborate your understanding? Explaining Shia Theology -- I am sure -- will clear out confusion, as folks in this forum is facing. Again, I am not referring to verses of ginan or qasida.

On your "interesting" point: What are you saying? Are you saying that salimkhoja is the same person as I am? It seems that the side effect of agakhani got into you too. I don't need to prove to anyone whether I am or I am not salimkhoja. I guess you can ask the moderator and I am sure he has means from his IT team to find that out, as he previously did something similar. But, I am curious, why would it bother you, even 'tret' and 'salimkhoja' would be the same person? I would expect one to pay attention to the message, as opposed to messenger.

And in regards to this question - Tret - I would suggest you examine and study the schisms in the faith over the last 2 centuries - beginning with the Barbhai and then to the Khoja Shia Ithna Asheri Jamats, and see why they left the faith - don't read the legal stuff - read and the historical discussion. Read about Habib Ibrahim and the influence over Dewji of Mulla Kader Hussain and you will find at the heart of the conflict or the schism - being this whole discussion on the role and status of the Imam - and how misinterpretation or for following a different version of Shia Doctrine (the one you seem to espouse we follow) - one veers away from the Imam - and doesn't accept the role of the Imam.

I am not talking about historical events or history. And if you know, then why don't you explain?
I am talking about Ismaili Doctrine, Shia Theology. Imams' guidance and teachings through his Pirs/Hujjats/Dais. Now, I hope you are not suggesting that the teachings of Hujjats/Dais are wrong. Shia Theology, as emphasized by MHI -- explains the rank of the Imam in both physical realm and spiritual realm, and as far as I understand, it is not God [The Transcendent]. This has been explained by elite Ismaili Hujjats/Philosophers/Theologians, such as Al-Sajistani, Nasir Khusraw, Tusi, Mu'iuddin Fiddin Shirazi and many more over centruries. None of them suggests [or even remotely implies] that Imam is God, and I am sure you can find their work in your local JK library or literature counter. When Imam in some of His Farameen says statements such as "I am the Creator", for example, this would not mean that He is God. Now, if one understands the Shia Theology, then the statement of the Imam (I am the Creator) would perfectly makes sense and it doesny not at all mean that Imam is God. Only those who don't necessarily understand Shia Theology would think Imam is God, such as (some) folks in this forum OR sunnies.

[salimkhoja786]

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.
If you are the elder brother of the house and taking care of the family.
one brother suddenly turns up claiming to be a family member.
he has cosmetic respect for your father but within himself he very much
suspects and dislike the father and try to poison others on status of the father of the family.
Would you keep him in the house or show him the DOOR.?
Hassan bin Sabbah eased out his son for the cause of ALI.
crushing serpent and not feeding milk is the first sign of afaithful defender of one father/ALI.
what is store for some members in this forum will reflect in last 7 year of fading away of physical life.
I have observed personally some Khojas who left Jamat and joined Al Isla in lure of money.
In a college of excellence if one make a primary school level a lecturer the end result is one word disaster.
that is what is seen in reality in Ummah.
this trend must not happen on this forum.
I need answers from Admin,shamsB,Agakhani,Ismaili103.
as for our kmaherali he is vintage of AVERAGE value at -350 years with copy paste of current affairs and -700 years data.
I appreciate it.He is like a vintage car/wine nevertheless useful.
getting impressed upon what was 1400 years back and 1000 yeas back is DISASTER if getting anchored in that period.
MHI in recent mulakat asked for solutions.Use your mind there and not copy paste of printed or stored data with no clue how to read and understand at desired level of the VARING LEVELS

You are an X Ismaili turned christian. You keep comparing Hazar Imam with Jesus Christ calling Imam as holy father. Christians believe Jesus as son of God. Is that what you are shoving down the throats of Ismailis.
Imam said to his followers ' learn from past '. One learn from past is through history. You even do not know Ismaili history properly. Hasan bin Sabbah punished his son for consuming ALCOHOL. He ordered 80 lashes punishment according to Islamic Shariah. Hasan's son passed away because of those 80 lashes punishment. I wished Hasan bin Sabbah around today to discipline Ismailis.

[Admin]

I wished Hasan bin Sabbah around today to discipline Ismailis.

If Hassan bin Sabbah was alive, you would be his first casualty. So please do not even dare call his name.

I don't know about Jesus, he is not my concern.

Our Imam is our Spiritual father, in fact we are his spiritual children. If this concept seems very disturbing to you, what are you still debating here?

[salimkhoja786]

I wished Hasan bin Sabbah around today to discipline Ismailis.

If Hassan bin Sabbah was alive, you would be his first casualty. So please do not even dare call his name.

I don't know about Jesus, he is not my concern.

Our Imam is our Spiritual father, in fact we are his spiritual children. If this concept seems very disturbing to you, what are you still debating here?

Please stay as a moderator and not a party. My reply was to Nuseri and not to your post. Let him reply.
Who are you to order me, dare not to call his name. Have you lost your mind.
Hasan bin Sabbah is my hero. 80 lashes were shara'i punishmen.
So you are equating Imam to Jesus as he has been mentioning as holy father.
You keep deleting my posts which goes against you, as you did before blocking previous thread.

[Admin]

So you are equating Imam to Jesus as he has been mentioning as holy father.
You keep deleting my posts which goes against you, as you did before blocking previous thread.

This is why I keep deleting your post. You are misrepresenting each and every person's comment. I have said Hazar Imam is our Spiritual father and you have written that I am equating the Imam to Jesus. What kind of childish analysis is this?

Yes you have to be surprised to see that some of your posts are not deleted!, not the other way round!

[kmaherali]

Do you even realize what you are saying? There's something really seriously wrong with your framework of belief. Let me put it differently so you realize.

According to you there's no difference between Mazhar of God and God.
Now you are saying there can be multiple Mazhar of God.
Logically, your conclusion is there can be multiple God.?

There can be multiple manifestations of God although they may not function as such. According to Ismailism there is only one functioning Mazhar who is recognised as such by the Jamat, but this does not preclude the existence of other advanced souls who have also become Fanna but who are not recognised as such. Infact the Imam discourages people to articulate their experiences to others.

There is a Farman made by the Imam:

"Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

You have a polytheistic belief, pal!!!! That's the reason it is very easy for a polytheist to consider anything or anyone as god.?

Never ever implied that! Advanced/elevated soul is NOT equivalent to anything or anyone. There is a vast difference!

"People say that human beings are microcosms and this outer universe a macrocosm, but for us the outer is a tiny wholeness and the inner life the vast reality." (Shams Tabriz, "Maqalat")

There's no way you can reconcile your belief with Islamic [monotheistic] believe system, let alone Ismaili's. Because, Shia Ismailis Theology regards the most radical view of Tawhid, then any other Abrahemic faith or any schools of thoughts within Islam. Even Sufi order falls short when it comes to Tawhid.

Absurd and bizzare!

I'd like to ask you the same question which shamsb failed to answer, do you understand Shia Theology, the way it has been thought by our own Imams and Hujjats?

I provided you with MSMS's statement from his Memoirs, did you read it! In case you are blind I will provide again...

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. "

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:

jesus called God as his spiritual/Holy father.Called out the name of Eli in hebrew, pronounced as ALI verbally.

understand that Jesus is holy son or spiritual son.and not father
If we reply from our heart YES MY DEAR SPIRITIUAL FATHER we Ismailis raise our level to that of Jesus Christ and raise MHI/ALI/ELI/Holy father/Spiritual father. as GOD.

To tret.Ya Ali madad.
You have been requested to post Khusraw Qasidas and tranlation to know at what level he speaks and preaches ALI.
At marifat they are all canaries of ALI if not I would call them donkies & not worthy Ismaili if they stop as zahiri level of imam and not eternel level(GOD).
then every low end tariqati can call himself Dai/Pir/Hujjat.
please note we have varing level and your level you have expressed and Shams and kmaherali have expressed their levels without fear.
As for me I put love for ALI if not then fear of ALI on others.

[kmaherali]

To tret.Ya Ali madad.
You have been requested to post Khusraw Qasidas and tranlation to know at what level he speaks and preaches ALI.

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

[salimkhoja786]

Ya Ali madad:

jesus called God as his spiritual/Holy father.Called out the name of Eli in hebrew, pronounced as ALI verbally.

understand that Jesus is holy son or spiritual son.and not father
If we reply from our heart YES MY DEAR SPIRITIUAL FATHER we Ismailis raise our level to that of Jesus Christ and raise MHI/ALI/ELI/Holy father/Spiritual father. as GOD.

To tret.Ya Ali madad.
You have been requested to post Khusraw Qasidas and tranlation to know at what level he speaks and preaches ALI.
At marifat they are all canaries of ALI if not I would call them donkies & not worthy Ismaili if they stop as zahiri level of imam and not eternel level(GOD).
then every low end tariqati can call himself Dai/Pir/Hujjat.
please note we have varing level and your level you have expressed and Shams and kmaherali have expressed their levels without fear.
As for me I put love for ALI if not then fear of ALI on others.

SAAMI RAJA ADAM NUHA IBRAHIM
NOOR E MUSA WA NOOR E ESSA TU HI TU
SAMI RAJA NOOR E MUHAMMAD TE NOOR E ALI MURTAZA
CHARHIYA TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH JI
PIR SADRUDDIN.

[salimkhoja786]

So you are equating Imam to Jesus as he has been mentioning as holy father.
You keep deleting my posts which goes against you, as you did before blocking previous thread.

This is why I keep deleting your post. You are misrepresenting each and every person's comment. I have said Hazar Imam is our Spiritual father and you have written that I am equating the Imam to Jesus. What kind of childish analysis is this?

Yes you have to be surprised to see that some of your posts are not deleted!, not the other way round!

Though you allowed debate on the issue whether MSMS consumed alcohol or not but when I posted a question that SMSM's second marraige was MUTA MARRAIGE, YOU DELETED MY QUESTION TWICE. Imam himself had mentioned in Memoirs then why are you freaking. Let it be debated.

[salimkhoja786]

I prefer farman. I have quoted one of 1966 which you discussed but not accepting it. Imam said;
THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT ONE SEEK TO COME CLOSE TO HE WHO IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Above all else is Allah.
Interviews and articles clearify further and enhance the vision.

I suggest you educate yourself first. Where do you see the name Allah in the quoted sentence?

Allah has attributes. Read the difference of He Who is Above all Else and Allah in the Encyclopedia of Islam under "Allah."\ There is the defining of Allah as understood by the Muslims in general and there is a special paragraph on Allah in Ismailism.

So please do not mix-up and try to make the Imam say what he has not said. I am really annoyed at your habit of misleading people by making it look like it is part of what Imam said. This has been going on and on in many of your posts.

But you did not elaborate the phrases ,'THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT. Why Imam used the word THROUGH?

[Admin]

Please reply to my question: Where did you see the name Allah? Why are you trying to deviate the issue.

The issue is that you are trying to mislead constantly the reader by mixing your own interpretation with what others are posting and you are trying to make it look like this is what has been originally been posted. I think this is not only horrifying but completely unethical.

As I said first read about the concept of God in ismailism and then you will have your answer but meanwhile explain where you saw Allah in the sentence and if you can not, please state clearly that you tried as usual to mislead.

[salimkhoja786]

Please reply to my question: Where did you see the name Allah? Why are you trying to deviate the issue.

The issue is that you are trying to mislead constantly the reader by mixing your own interpretation with what others are posting and you are trying to make it look like this is what has been originally been posted. I think this is not only horrifying but completely unethical.

As I said first read about the concept of God in ismailism and then you will have your answer but meanwhile explain where you saw Allah in the sentence and if you can not, please state clearly that you tried as usual to mislead.

In said farman what do you mean by HE?
Don't you say in Du'a" QUL HU WALLAHU AHAD" in Surah Ikhlas the word hu means HE.

[ismaili103]

In said farman what do you mean by HE?
Don't you say in Du'a" QUL HU WALLAHU AHAD" in Surah Ikhlas the word hu means HE.

Allah doesn't have any gender, Allah has both Paternal( Jalali) and Maternal ( Jamali ) attributes.

[kmaherali]

SAAMI RAJA ADAM NUHA IBRAHIM
NOOR E MUSA WA NOOR E ESSA TU HI TU
SAMI RAJA NOOR E MUHAMMAD TE NOOR E ALI MURTAZA
CHARHIYA TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH JI
PIR SADRUDDIN.

This is a corruption! The actual verses are:

saamee raajaa machchh korabh vaaraa narshee(n)h
vaaemann farseeraam sree raam tu(n)........................6

O Lord the Majesty! The Fish, the Tortoise, the Hog, the Man-lion, the Dwarf, the King with a horse and Sree Raam were all You(Your manifestations).

saamee raajaa kaanjee budh dashme nakla(n)kee huvaa
chaddeeyaa tu(n) sree islaamshaahaa........................7

O Lord the Majesty! Lord Krishnaa, Lord Budh(Muslim Form) and the Tenth Spotless Form existed. On the same throne You Sree Islaamshaah(Haazar Imaam) are seated.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23103

[kmaherali]

But you did not elaborate the phrases ,'THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT. Why Imam used the word THROUGH?

Through the NOOR of Piratan you attain the Imam (He who is above all else.

We are all familiar with the verse:

Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tamo pamo Imam.

Through Nabi Muhammad one attains the Imam - He who is above all else.

[salimkhoja786]

SAAMI RAJA ADAM NUHA IBRAHIM
NOOR E MUSA WA NOOR E ESSA TU HI TU
SAMI RAJA NOOR E MUHAMMAD TE NOOR E ALI MURTAZA
CHARHIYA TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH JI
PIR SADRUDDIN.

This is a corruption! The actual verses are:

saamee raajaa machchh korabh vaaraa narshee(n)h
vaaemann farseeraam sree raam tu(n)........................6

O Lord the Majesty! The Fish, the Tortoise, the Hog, the Man-lion, the Dwarf, the King with a horse and Sree Raam were all You(Your manifestations).

saamee raajaa kaanjee budh dashme nakla(n)kee huvaa
chaddeeyaa tu(n) sree islaamshaahaa........................7

O Lord the Majesty! Lord Krishnaa, Lord Budh(Muslim Form) and the Tenth Spotless Form existed. On the same throne You Sree Islaamshaah(Haazar Imaam) are seated.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23103

I knew some one will jump in, you did. Karim I did not corrupted the wordings of these parts. MSMS changed the wordings of these parts. Do you think MSMS corrupted the wordings. Past 50/60 years Noor e Musa, Noor e Essa is recited in JKs.

[salimkhoja786]

But you did not elaborate the phrases ,'THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT. Why Imam used the word THROUGH?

Through the NOOR of Piratan you attain the Imam (He who is above all else.

We are all familiar with the verse:

Nabi Muhammad bujo bhai to tamo pamo Imam.

Through Nabi Muhammad one attains the Imam - He who is above all else.

You are good at manipulating sentences and paragraphs in favor of your thinking. I understand your tactics. Please take the first line of ginan.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI.
For God sake from where you got the meaning of 'through', there are 4 words none mention the meaning of 'through'. Bhujo means 'know' or 'recognize'. In second line the word 'tou' means 'then' which is conditional.
There fore meaning will be;
In first line; Brother recognize (know) prophet Muhammad,
In second line; Tou means then (in Urdu means phir) you will attain or have ma'rifat of Imam.

[Admin]

MSMS changed the wordings of these parts. Do you think MSMS corrupted the wordings. Past 50/60 years Noor e Musa, Noor e Essa is recited in JKs.

This again is another lie. I always keep asking you for the Farman and you keep dodging my question.

I think by now people know there is no substance in your posts and you imagine and invent most of your post but it is necessary to remind this: You invent "Farmans" and try to convince people. Shame on you! Was your Imam's name Kassamali by any chance?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
To Admin: it is hi time to lock this topic as i see it mostly recycling of junk and crap rather than souls.

[kmaherali]

You are good at manipulating sentences and paragraphs in favor of your thinking. I understand your tactics. Please take the first line of ginan.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI.
For God sake from where you got the meaning of 'through', there are 4 words none mention the meaning of 'through'. Bhujo means 'know' or 'recognize'. In second line the word 'tou' means 'then' which is conditional.
There fore meaning will be;
In first line; Brother recognize (know) prophet Muhammad,
In second line; Tou means then (in Urdu means phir) you will attain or have ma'rifat of Imam.

If you say recognize Nabi Muhammad, then you will attain the Imam. Doesn't it imply that first you have to know Nabi through whom you attain the Imam? It is simple logic

[Admin]

Ya Ali Madad.
To Admin: it is hi time to lock this topic as i see it mostly recycling of junk and crap rather than souls.

For once, I agree that this topic needs to be closed. It has been enough discussed. There are more focussed topics where each different aspects discussed here can be redirected. Thank you.

Admin