quran as mentioned in preamble

[sameernoorani5]

Imam Zain ul Aabidin said;
There is no veil between Allah and His Hujjat (proof), nor is there a veil of Allah except His Hujjat. We are Allah's gates, we are the straight path, we are the treasure of His knowledge, we are the interpretation of His revelations, we are the pillars of His oneness, and we are the place of His secret.
This hadith shows that Imam of the time is the teacher of Quran. Hazar Imam said,".... that over the history of Islam, there are thousands of thousands interpretations of the Quran for every time. For every part within the Ummah, there have been interpretation of the Quran, and it is important that, as time evolves, we should continue under the guidance of IMAM to seek clarity and understanding from the Quran Sharif. And I want my spiritual children to know that this is an endeavor which is being undertaken on ongoing basis...."
August 17, 2007. DaresSalam Tanzania.

[sameernoorani5]

For research purpose, can any participant on this forum shed light; When and in which century Shias started saying 'YA ALI MADAD' in salutation while meeting and greeting.
1, During the time of prophet.
2. During the life time of Mowla Ali.
3. During the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq
4. In the 3/4 century Hijrah.
I know Shias including Ismailis consider Nad e Ali as basis for YA ALI MADAD, but my question is in which century. I have checked the early Shia literature but can't find it.

[Admin]

I have opened a new topic on "Ya Ali Madad" as this is a subject by itself, it should not be mixed with others. Continue the discussion on Ya Ali Mada there. Thanks


http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8878

[salimkhoja786]

After the burial ceremonies of MSMS at Aswan in Egypt in 1957, there is continuous reciting of Quran (Talawat e Quran) is going on in mausoleum till today and it is the same Quran compiled in the time of Caliph Osman.

[shiraz.virani]

salimkhoja

After the burial ceremonies of MSMS at Aswan in Egypt in 1957, there is continuous reciting of Quran (Talawat e Quran) is going on in mausoleum till today and it is the same Quran compiled in the time of Caliph Osman.

I personally don't know arabic except some aayats that we recite in our dua and "WALLAH HABIBI" which i learnt on my trip to vegas , lol

anyways coming back to the topic....i dunno why you sound sooooo into quran, imam and what not....i say relax !!!...chill maar yaar

our admin is already busy with NUSERI, Im pretty sure he dont want you to flood the forums.

My answer to the current topic is simple

if you stand for the religion, people of that particular faith stand behind you BUT......

if you stand for truth and truth only my friend then GOD STAND'S BESIDE YOU.

[kmaherali]

After the burial ceremonies of MSMS at Aswan in Egypt in 1957, there is continuous reciting of Quran (Talawat e Quran) is going on in mausoleum till today and it is the same Quran compiled in the time of Caliph Osman.

Yes they are PARTS of the Qur'an, some of them are also recited during the Ziyarat e Mayyat.

[salimkhoja786]

After the burial ceremonies of MSMS at Aswan in Egypt in 1957, there is continuous reciting of Quran (Talawat e Quran) is going on in mausoleum till today and it is the same Quran compiled in the time of Caliph Osman.

Yes they are PARTS of the Qur'an, some of them are also recited during the Ziyarat e Mayyat.

Karim why are you hiding the facts. It is complete Quran on daily basis and not parts of Quran. In the beginning it was through live Qa'ri, now a days recording.

[shiraz.virani]

(b)It is complete Quran on daily basis and not parts of Quran. In the beginning it was through live Qa'ri, now a days recording.(/b)

So how much of this quran are you following or applying to your life each day salim?
[/b]

[kmaherali]

Karim why are you hiding the facts. It is complete Quran on daily basis and not parts of Quran. In the beginning it was through live Qa'ri, now a days recording.

I have visited that place and I did not hear a continuous recitation. An arrangement was made for the Qur'an reciter (the one who recited the Qur'an during the burial of the Imam) to recite some verses of the Qur'an for us, not the entire Qur'an which could have taken hours!.

[agakhani_1]

When and in which century Shias started saying 'YA ALI MADAD' in salutation while meeting and greeting.

Very simple answer: asking help from God ( Ali ) has been started right after the first human being started to understand who is God!!! as long as Shias are concern then I think it has been started during H. Ali (s.a) time but off course more research needed.

[salimkhoja786]

(b)It is complete Quran on daily basis and not parts of Quran. In the beginning it was through live Qa'ri, now a days recording.(/b)

So how much of this quran are you following or applying to your life each day salim?
[/b]

Though you asked a personal question but l shall answer your query.
There are huqququlallah and huqququl ibaad, I try my best to follow the guidance.

[salimkhoja786]

Karim why are you hiding the facts. It is complete Quran on daily basis and not parts of Quran. In the beginning it was through live Qa'ri, now a days recording.

I have visited that place and I did not hear a continuous recitation. An arrangement was made for the Qur'an reciter (the one who recited the Qur'an during the burial of the Imam) to recite some verses of the Qur'an for us, not the entire Qur'an which could have taken hours!.

Were you present at the burial ceremony of MSMS, because you wrote," to recite some verses of QURAN FOR US". According to my information there is reciting of Quran on daily basis.

[salimkhoja786]

When and in which century Shias started saying 'YA ALI MADAD' in salutation while meeting and greeting.

Very simple answer: asking help from God ( Ali ) has been started right after the first human being started to understand who is God!!! as long as Shias are concern then I think it has been started during H. Ali (s.a) time but off course more research needed.

You wrote," of course more research is needed", you have no documentary evidence therefore it is your opinion. There is no documentary proof that Shi'an e Ali started saying 'Ya Ali Madad' as salutation in life of Mowla Ali.

[Admin]

When and in which century Shias started saying 'YA ALI MADAD' in salutation while meeting and greeting.

Very simple answer: asking help from God ( Ali ) has been started right after the first human being started to understand who is God!!!

Obviously, before even the Creation, whatever existed was reciting praises of Ali and seeking his help. Unless one does not know about the Noor of Aly, in that case it would be useless to continue this thread of explanation.

[kmaherali]

Were you present at the burial ceremony of MSMS, because you wrote," to recite some verses of QURAN FOR US". According to my information there is reciting of Quran on daily basis.

I was not even born at that time! However when we visited that site as a guided tour, arrangements were made so that the person who recited at the burial of MSMS (who was old by then) could come and recite the verses that he recited at the burial.

When we visited that place, it was not accessible to the public and no one was there accept for the care-taker. I don't think the verses are recited on an on going basis, but on special occasions or visits.

[salimkhoja786]

For research purpose, can any participant on this forum shed light; When and in which century Shias started saying 'YA ALI MADAD' in salutation while meeting and greeting.
1, During the time of prophet.
2. During the life time of Mowla Ali.
3. During the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq
4. In the 3/4 century Hijrah.
I know Shias including Ismailis consider Nad e Ali as basis for YA ALI MADAD, but my question is in which century. I have checked the early Shia literature but can't find it.

Admin read carefully questions asked by Sameer in above post. He wrote for,
" research purpose" and was not pointing towards Iman of any person.
You replied," Obviously before even the creation what ever existed was reciting praise of Ali and seeking his help".
My innocent question to Admin, were human beings present before creation, and if they in your 'IMAGINATION' what kind of help were they seeking?

[Admin]

Admin read carefully questions asked by Sameer in above post. He wrote for,
" research purpose" and was not pointing towards Iman of any person.
You replied," Obviously before even the creation what ever existed was reciting praise of Ali and seeking his help".
My innocent question to Admin, were human beings present before creation, and if they in your 'IMAGINATION' what kind of help were they seeking?

Sameer and Salimkhoja786 Alias MazharShah aren't you looking over-intelligent by saying" Sameer" was not pointing when everyone know you yourself are Sameer?

And where did I say there were human beings before creation? Again the same manipulation of what people are writing.

May I remind you that you were suspended from this Forum for 2 weeks because of your lies and if these kind of lies continue, I would suggest very politely that you find some other Forum to manipulate people.

-----------------------

They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157

He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. S. 33:56 Palmer

[salimkhoja786]

Admin read carefully questions asked by Sameer in above post. He wrote for,
" research purpose" and was not pointing towards Iman of any person.
You replied," Obviously before even the creation what ever existed was reciting praise of Ali and seeking his help".
My innocent question to Admin, were human beings present before creation, and if they in your 'IMAGINATION' what kind of help were they seeking?

Sameer and Salimkhoja786 Alias MazharShah aren't you looking over-intelligent by saying" Sameer" was not pointing when everyone know you yourself are Sameer?

And where did I say there were human beings before creation? Again the same manipulation of what people are writing.

May I remind you that you were suspended from this Forum for 2 weeks because of your lies and if these kind of lies continue, I would suggest very politely that you find some other Forum to manipulate people.

-----------------------

They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157

He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. S. 33:56 Palmer

Admin a very innocent question;
Last year when Mazhar Shah wrote about some Mukhis consuming alcohol, you deleted his account. But when a honorable member wrote and insisted that Imam consumed alcohol you are silent. I am not in favor of deleting any members's account but just to point out, Where you draw the line. I feel disrespect for Imam that an Ismaili should quote such kind of devastating statement. I do not buy neither majority of Ismailis this arguement by some members that Imam want to test his followers. There are scores of other ways of testing followers if Imam wants.

[kmaherali]

Last year when Mazhar Shah wrote about some Mukhis consuming alcohol, you deleted his account. But when a honorable member wrote and insisted that Imam consumed alcohol you are silent.

That is the crux of the problem. You equating the actions of the Imam with that of the Mukhi. The actions of the Imam are of a different order and cannot be judged according to human standards:

According to Tusi as I quoted earlier which I hope you read, the truth follows the Imam and not the other way around.

Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee ek feekar munivar tamaaree chhe amne
maanas roope saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji.......................4

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23183

[salimkhoja786]

Last year when Mazhar Shah wrote about some Mukhis consuming alcohol, you deleted his account. But when a honorable member wrote and insisted that Imam consumed alcohol you are silent.

That is the crux of the problem. You equating the actions of the Imam with that of the Mukhi. The actions of the Imam are of a different order and cannot be judged according to human standards:

According to Tusi as I quoted earlier which I hope you read, the truth follows the Imam and not the other way around.

Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee ek feekar munivar tamaaree chhe amne
maanas roope saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji.......................4

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23183

So in your opinion a Mukhi is more respected and important than Hazar Imam. It is against dignity of Imam. Did MSMS himself admitted that he consumed alcohol? Can we accept in totallity what is written by Leonard Slater in the book 'Aly', or what ever is written by Anne Edwards in 'Throne of Gold', or 'Understanding Ismailism' by Akber Maherali, or 'Aga khans's Billions and the Assassins, by A.u Pendragon. If your answer is no, how come a person like you accepted the statment of Green wall? Here my argument is not about spiritual status of Imam but about the statement you posted and now defending it.

[Admin]

The statements of Slater of Greenwall has no importance at all. Different people will perceive a different reality when in presence of Imam. Indian call it maya, illusion.

The only important thing to consider is what is the Imam saying?

If he is not saying this or that why continue on this line of discussion? Bring a Farman and then act on it.

[kmaherali]

Imam will appear according to the nature and capacity of the audience. For example, in the company of his murids, he will make extempore Farmans, whereas outside the Jamats he will start looking for his papers and then read a prepared speech.

He will say different things to different audiences, so we should be particular of what he says in the Farmans.

Greenwall has described the Imam based on his interactions with him in a western context. He was not his murid but a friend.

[kmaherali]

So in your opinion a Mukhi is more respected and important than Hazar Imam. It is against dignity of Imam. Did MSMS himself admitted that he consumed alcohol? Can we accept in totallity what is written by Leonard Slater in the book 'Aly', or what ever is written by Anne Edwards in 'Throne of Gold', or 'Understanding Ismailism' by Akber Maherali, or 'Aga khans's Billions and the Assassins, by A.u Pendragon. If your answer is no, how come a person like you accepted the statment of Green wall? Here my argument is not about spiritual status of Imam but about the statement you posted and now defending it.

I quoted you verses from Mowlana Rumi and Tusi. Did you read them? The answer is found in them. That is the correct understnding of Imamat. The actions of the Imam have no bearing upon his status. Just as God's actions may appear incomprehensible, the Mazhar's actions can also appear incomprehensible. You cannot compare the actions of the Mukhi with the actions of the Imam.

[salimkhoja786]

The statements of Slater of Greenwall has no importance at all. Different people will perceive a different reality when in presence of Imam. Indian call it maya, illusion.

The only important thing to consider is what is the Imam saying?

If he is not saying this or that why continue on this line of discussion? Bring a Farman and then act on it.

So you are admitting statement by Green Wall was illusion/maya and it has nothing to do with reality. Please explain this to your friend Kmaherali.
You have treasure of farmans, did you read in any farman Imam saying he consumed alcohol? Did MSMS said publicly, he consumed it? Religiously alcohol statement has opened Pandora's box. Please clearly condemn this statement if you think MSMS did not consumed.

[salimkhoja786]

So in your opinion a Mukhi is more respected and important than Hazar Imam. It is against dignity of Imam. Did MSMS himself admitted that he consumed alcohol? Can we accept in totallity what is written by Leonard Slater in the book 'Aly', or what ever is written by Anne Edwards in 'Throne of Gold', or 'Understanding Ismailism' by Akber Maherali, or 'Aga khans's Billions and the Assassins, by A.u Pendragon. If your answer is no, how come a person like you accepted the statment of Green wall? Here my argument is not about spiritual status of Imam but about the statement you posted and now defending it.

I quoted you verses from Mowlana Rumi and Tusi. Did you read them? The answer is found in them. That is the correct understnding of Imamat. The actions of the Imam have no bearing upon his status. Just as God's actions may appear incomprehensible, the Mazhar's actions can also appear incomprehensible. You cannot compare the actions of the Mukhi with the actions of the Imam.

In your opinion what is the meaning of MA'SUM ie innocent or impeccable.
As qualities of real Mukhi you should read ginan of Syed Imam Shah.

[Admin]

So you are admitting statement by Green Wall was illusion/maya and it has nothing to do with reality.

I am not "admitting" anything. My post is self explanatory.

[kmaherali]

In your opinion what is the meaning of MA'SUM ie innocent or impeccable.
As qualities of real Mukhi you should read ginan of Syed Imam Shah.

My views about the meaning of Ma'sum as regarding the actions of the Imam are reflected in the verses from Tusi that I quoted earlier. In addition, Ma'sum means purity of thought and intent. All actions of the Imam stem from purity of intent, even if he killed someone, that would be considered as Ma'sum because he would have a pure and good intention for doing that. The same ideas are expressed in the Qur'an viz a viz Moses and khidr.

Just to elaborate on the incomprehensibilty of the actions of the Imam, in his Memoirs, MSMS wrote that when he was a boy, he used to steal books from a bookstore until he was caught by his uncle and was taught a lesson. From that day he never stole anything.

My question is that didn't the Imam know that it was a sin and shameful to steal? Does the Imam need to be taught not to steal?

More important, why did he choose to tell this to the world in his Memoirs? He could have hidden it!

The point I am making is that to different audiences he will project a different image either through his actions or words. When the Memoirs was published, the Imam sent a talika to say that he has two audiences in front of him. The Memoirs was for the Western audience. I think the Admin has seen this talika.

Yes when the Mukhi acts on behalf of the Imam in Jamati matters, he can have unusual powers.

[kmaherali]

So you are admitting statement by Green Wall was illusion/maya and it has nothing to do with reality. Please explain this to your friend Kmaherali.

I am convinced by what I have read from the book and the background of Greenwall and his friendly relationship with the Imam. I do not believe he has lied, else the Imam would not have written the Foreword and shared his photographs for publication. No one can convince me otherwise!

[kmaherali]

You have treasure of farmans, did you read in any farman Imam saying he consumed alcohol? Did MSMS said publicly, he consumed it?

The Imam never says in the Farman what he does or what he does not so as to indicate it as guidance and example, we don't take guidance from the actions. Yes he said it publicly according to Greenwall as I have alluded through references.

[kmaherali]

Just to elaborate on the incomprehensibilty of the actions of the Imam, in his Memoirs, MSMS wrote that when he was a boy, he used to steal books from a bookstore until he was caught by his uncle and was taught a lesson. From that day he never stole anything.

In case you don't believe what I said, the following is the quote from Memoirs:

"As I have remarked, I early acquired an insatiable taste for reading. It developed rapidly from the time that I was ten or so, and when I had temporarily, at any rate, plumbed the resources of our library, I looked elsewhere. I wanted to buy books for myself. But there was one small impediment: my mother allowed me no pocket money. My cousin and I organized ourselves a brilliant way around this difficulty. Each of us put on an abba (a wide, all-enveloping cloak which is, or used to be, a universal piece of clothing in Persia and the Arab countries). Thus garbed we made our way to a wellknown Bombay bookshop. One of us engaged the shopkeeper in eager conversation, and the other slid some books into the folds of his abba. Our little device was pretty soon spotted, and the proprietor of the shop told my uncle and my mother. Naturally our bill was promptly settled, but the family decided that we should be taught a lesson. Nothing was said to us and we continued our naughty little game. We were at it one day when into the shop walked my uncle.

"Take off your abbas!" he ordered sternly.

As we did so, the books which we had stolen tumbled to the floor. Our shame and our mortification were immediate and complete, and from that day to this I don't think I have ever so much as picked a flower in anyone else's garden without telling him."

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30605