Recycling of souls.

[kmaherali]

Don't you people have some better examples or anecdotes regarding Imams and pirs. One is writing pir consumed alcohol, other is writing pir spend night in the house of prostitute or Imam will consume alcohol to examine his murids. I think Imam has scores of other ways to examine his murids.
What message you are conveying to non Ismailis, that Imam and pirs are alcoholics!!

The point of writing about the worst behaviour is highlight the fact that the Imam is not bound by the Sharia and therefore we should not take guidance from his actions but rather from what he tells us.

He does not have to behave like the other Mullas - wearing turbans, beards, tasbihs around their necks etc.

[salimkhoja786]

Don't you people have some better examples or anecdotes regarding Imams and pirs. One is writing pir consumed alcohol, other is writing pir spend night in the house of prostitute or Imam will consume alcohol to examine his murids. I think Imam has scores of other ways to examine his murids.
What message you are conveying to non Ismailis, that Imam and pirs are alcoholics!!

The point of writing about the worst behaviour is highlight the fact that the Imam is not bound by the Sharia and therefore we should not take guidance from his actions but rather from what he tells us.

He does not have to behave like the other Mullas - wearing turbans, beards, tasbihs around their necks etc.

It is not the question of mullah,turban, or beard. BTY in ginans pirs have addressed Imam as Mullah. Of course Imam put on turban. Prior to MSMS all our Imams were bearded. For highlighting some other anecdotes can be chosen in comparison to wine, liquor or prostitutes . Some loose words can derail youth, they are sensitive.

[salimkhoja786]

You did not addressed the question properly. No doubt ginans are unique and wonderful tradition but question is," Ismailis believe that the present Imam supersedes farman of his predessesor, Is this concept applies to pirs as well where a pir supersedes previous pirs before him and make changes in ginans according to time"? Please answer YES or NO.

I have studied the Ginans of many Pirs written over several centuries and I have noted not much change in the eternal message between them. The concept of Imamat, Dasond, Dua sukreet Ibadat have been emphasized by all Pirs. I haven't noted any variation.

One change that I have noticed is relating to the baar poori (36 hour ) fast for beej. That has been reduced in today's circumstances to 12 hours.

The Ginan is a tradition which does not change easily unless there are very strong reasons to do so.

[salimkhoja786]

You did not addressed the question properly. No doubt ginans are unique and wonderful tradition but question is," Ismailis believe that the present Imam supersedes farman of his predessesor, Is this concept applies to pirs as well where a pir supersedes previous pirs before him and make changes in ginans according to time"? Please answer YES or NO.

I have studied the Ginans of many Pirs written over several centuries and I have noted not much change in the eternal message between them. The concept of Imamat, Dasond, Dua sukreet Ibadat have been emphasized by all Pirs. I haven't noted any variation.

One change that I have noticed is relating to the baar poori (36 hour ) fast for beej. That has been reduced in today's circumstances to 12 hours.

The Ginan is a tradition which does not change easily unless there are very strong reasons to do so.

Why are you shy to answer YES or NO.
In some of your posts you stressed that ginans are farmans ( same view is of some other participants also, that's why they are not replying). Now you are twisting the statement that ginan is a tradition can not be changed easily and at same time you gave one example of 36 hour bheej.

[salimkhoja786]

The question was asked about Mata Salamat Umm e Habiba and not Sarkar Mata Salamat. Being an Ismaili and wife of Imam, Begum Umm e Habiba performed 3 Hajj.
Don't you people have some better examples or anecdotes regarding Imams and pirs. One is writing pir consumed alcohol, other is writing pir spend night in the house of prostitute or Imam will consume alcohol to examine his murids. I think Imam has scores of other ways to examine his murids.
What message you are conveying to non Ismailis, that Imam and pirs are alcoholics!!

Imam can do anything to examine our faith, drinking alcohol are just examples, He can even do worst thing which we can't even imagine only to examine our faith.

And no one is conveying wrong msgs to non ismailis, they are free to think whatever they want to think, I personally encounter with non ismailis who abuse Imam infront of my face, I didn't even care, because I know by droping a drop of alcohol in ocean, ocean will not become dirty.

I do not understand, why Imam wants to test his murids!! Does Imam has no trust in his murids!
If you give finger(any chance) to your opponents, they will hold your arm, then they will turn around and slap on the faces of innocent Ismailis, that is worrisome.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I have observed some members getting carried away like an immature statement of alcohol. Giving overt importance to Pirs who lived in the past over farmans of living Imam.
There are in lacs in figures from Ismailis who has haqiqati conviction of Imam.85% of the contents in total forum is useless which needs to be junked.This would be responsibility of the future.

[kmaherali]

Why are you shy to answer YES or NO.
In some of your posts you stressed that ginans are farmans ( same view is of some other participants also, that's why they are not replying). Now you are twisting the statement that ginan is a tradition can not be changed easily and at same time you gave one example of 36 hour bheej.

There can never be an absolute YES or No. When you refer to the Ginans, we usually associate them with a wonderful tradition in which case there is little room for change in the essence, although the form can vary in terms of ragas.

When I said that a tradition does not change in most cases it just means that. In some exceptional cases the forms will change - the example of beej fast which changed from 36 hrs to 12 hrs.

Ginans can be considered as Farmans on eternal principles and values in which case they cannot be altered easily. On the other hand, Farmans on worldy matters may change from time to time.

[kmaherali]

For highlighting some other anecdotes can be chosen in comparison to wine, liquor or prostitutes . Some loose words can derail youth, they are sensitive.

I think our youths today are far more intelligent than yourself. I don't think they will have a problem understanding that the Imam is not bound to the Sharia and that his purity is not effected by being immersed in worldly filth; just as a diamond is not effected when immersed in mud.

Whether he drinks alcohol or sulphuric acid would have no impact upon him.

[kmaherali]

I do not understand, why Imam wants to test his murids!! Does Imam has no trust in his murids!
If you give finger(any chance) to your opponents, they will hold your arm, then they will turn around and slap on the faces of innocent Ismailis, that is worrisome.

It is very unlikely that the Imam would drink alcohol in public to test his murids.

There is a phrase of the Ginan: Saa(m)bhallo Moman Vednee Vaat - Translation http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3845#top

Eji Cheti chaalo kaljug maanhe saachaa
bhaai jevun taarun dil tevi saaheb jini vaachaa. 9

Proceed carefully in this era, brothers the Guides appearance or guidance will depend upon the state of your heart.

The essence of the above verse is that the appearance of the Imam will depend upon the nature of his audience. When he is with people whose hearts are dark, his behaviour will reflect that dark nature. When the Imam is with his murids he will display the splendour of light!

[ismaili103]

I do not understand, why Imam wants to test his murids!! Does Imam has no trust in his murids!
If you give finger(any chance) to your opponents, they will hold your arm, then they will turn around and slap on the faces of innocent Ismailis, that is worrisome.

Actually we Murids have no trust on Imam, we didn't follow his farmans thats why he will definitely test us in any ways.

Either Imam himself do wrong acts to examine whether we follow his farmans or his actions.

Or he will put his Murids into the such circumstances which are very difficult, and I think second option is very common amongst us.

[tret]

Whether he drinks alcohol ...

But He doesn't!

MHI mentioned very specifically that he never touched alcohol nor he would. Isn't it clear? Why would you assume and associate such things to the Imam?

[salimkhoja786]

For highlighting some other anecdotes can be chosen in comparison to wine, liquor or prostitutes . Some loose words can derail youth, they are sensitive.

I think our youths today are far more intelligent than yourself. I don't think they will have a problem understanding that the Imam is not bound to the Sharia and that his purity is not effected by being immersed in worldly filth; just as a diamond is not effected when immersed in mud.

Whether he drinks alcohol or sulphuric acid would have no impact upon him.

Indeed 21st century youth are more intelligent averagely than 700/1000 years back generations. If 700/1000 years back generations have same opportunities and advantages like higher scientific education, internet, changed environment they should have changed views to look at life and daily matters according to changing times.
Here I want to mention a real dialogue in between me and a young person who wanted to divorce his wife. I was asked by a community member to help and explain to a young married pair who was on verge of divorce. He asked me because I knew parents of young pair. I accepted in good faith. First I talked to girl she mentioned her problems then a meeting was arranged with the boy with his parents. I explained to boy what ever I could. But the reply was SHOCKING. He said, I quote," Our Imam is a role model if he divorced twice why should not I". He said few other things which I do not want to post here. Youths are sensitive and keep eye on community matters.

[salimkhoja786]

Why are you shy to answer YES or NO.
In some of your posts you stressed that ginans are farmans ( same view is of some other participants also, that's why they are not replying). Now you are twisting the statement that ginan is a tradition can not be changed easily and at same time you gave one example of 36 hour bheej.

There can never be an absolute YES or No. When you refer to the Ginans, we usually associate them with a wonderful tradition in which case there is little room for change in the essence, although the form can vary in terms of ragas.

When I said that a tradition does not change in most cases it just means that. In some exceptional cases the forms will change - the example of beej fast which changed from 36 hrs to 12 hrs.

Ginans can be considered as Farmans on eternal principles and values in which case they cannot be altered easily. On the other hand, Farmans on worldy matters may change from time to time.

Question is not about tradition but an Ismaili concept.
You wrote," There can never be an absolute YES or NO, when you refer to ginans", So you mean for farman YES and for ginans NO. Isn't it?

[agakhani_1]

Admin,
Salimkhoja786 is none other but he is old Mazhar

[Admin]

Admin,
Salimkhoja786 is none other but he is old Mazhar

Yes of course I know it. I think everyone knows from his posting.

[nuseri]

To admin: Ya Ali madad.
Do you observe your site from figure.see the new member registration from start to last year. Yearly growth and sudden stagnantcy and just low double digit in last one year with one person dominating in multi registration.
It is law of nature where trees are cut,there is less rainfall.If serpents are abound in garden.NOBODY may wish to come near.
This site foundation is anchoring the database of 700 years past. No youth is much interested in it.
You had 12 members early now maybe only 3 harping on past data.
In last 3 years,I got just one message on watsapp to a link of your site for MHI speech,from the same circle I get every 3 months a message with links to Simerg.
Something has/is teribbly wrong in this website.
I have 7 points.TRUTH IS BITTER.
may ALI still keep blessing your website as in early days

[kmaherali]

Whether he drinks alcohol ...

But He doesn't!

MHI mentioned very specifically that he never touched alcohol nor he would. Isn't it clear? Why would you assume and associate such things to the Imam?

There are two very credible autobiographies of MSMS which mention that he drank wine. One is by Mr Greenwall who was a friend of the Imam and the Imam wrote the Foreword for his book and also shared some of his private photgraphs for the publication. The second is written by Stanley Jackson. Both of them have written highly about the Imam and his positive contributions to the society.

Excerpt from one of them:

"Alcohol, for example, is forbidden to Moslems, but the Aga Khan takes wine when he wills, although he preaches abstinence and counsels the drinking of fruit juices. He can take wine without offending any religious scruples because, as he says himself, 'I am so holy that when I drink wine, it turns to water.'

[kmaherali]

Question is not about tradition but an Ismaili concept.
You wrote," There can never be an absolute YES or NO, when you refer to ginans", So you mean for farman YES and for ginans NO. Isn't it?

I would say that Farmans on temporal matters can change but the Farmans/Ginans on eternal concepts and values cannot change.

Hence farmans pertaining to matters such as staying or leaving a country can change: whereas as Farmans/Ginans on Imamat , ethics and traditions cannot change.

[kmaherali]

But the reply was SHOCKING. He said, I quote," Our Imam is a role model if he divorced twice why should not I". He said few other things which I do not want to post here. Youths are sensitive and keep eye on community matters.

That is where the problem is. The Imam is NOT a role model. This something we must impress upon the Jamat and the youth in particular. All the issues that you are alluding to, can disolve once this important principle is recognised.

The Imam's worldly behaviour should not have any bearing upon our lives.

[salimkhoja786]

Whether he drinks alcohol ...

But He doesn't!

MHI mentioned very specifically that he never touched alcohol nor he would. Isn't it clear? Why would you assume and associate such things to the Imam?

There are two very credible autobiographies of MSMS which mention that he drank wine. One is by Mr Greenwall who was a friend of the Imam and the Imam wrote the Foreword for his book and also shared some of his private photgraphs for the publication. The second is written by Stanley Jackson. Both of them have written highly about the Imam and his positive contributions to the society.

Excerpt from one of them:

"Alcohol, for example, is forbidden to Moslems, but the Aga Khan takes wine when he wills, although he preaches abstinence and counsels the drinking of fruit juices. He can take wine without offending any religious scruples because, as he says himself, 'I am so holy that when I drink wine, it turns to water.'

Though I am aware of the statements written in the books of Mr Green wall and Mr Stanley Jackson about consuming of wine and champagne by MSMS but I dare not to mention in any of my posts because of respect for MSMS.
The same quotation 'when I drink wine, it turns to water' can be found in the book 'Satanic Verses' written by Salman Rushdi. Karim you dented the respect and integrity of MSMS. Was wine quotation necessary to quote? You have provided ammo to opponents of Ismailism particularly in Pakistan and else where, that Imam of khoja Ismaili community consumed wine. I was not expecting such kind of ruthless statement from your side. Prior to this a dancing photo of MSMS with begum saheba was posted showing a bucket full of champagne bottles. What message Admin. is trying to convey. May be I am a bad guy but I stand by my Imam and keep defending him. Your this posting has a negative effect on youths.

[salimkhoja786]

But the reply was SHOCKING. He said, I quote," Our Imam is a role model if he divorced twice why should not I". He said few other things which I do not want to post here. Youths are sensitive and keep eye on community matters.

That is where the problem is. The Imam is NOT a role model. This something we must impress upon the Jamat and the youth in particular. All the issues that you are alluding to, can disolve once this important principle is recognised.

The Imam's worldly behaviour should not have any bearing upon our lives.

ROLE MODEL:

Please check the photo posted by Admin. on front page dated march 10,2016. The photo was taken on inauguration of first Ismaili council in Karachi in the year 1902. All the 13 amaldaris are bearded. When they saw Imam is clean shaved many followed later on, clean shaved. This is the impact of a role model. Since that time almost 90% of male followers are clean shaved.

[kmaherali]

Karim you dented the respect and integrity of MSMS. Was wine quotation necessary to quote? You have provided ammo to opponents of Ismailism particularly in Pakistan and else where, that Imam of khoja Ismaili community consumed wine. I was not expecting such kind of ruthless statement from your side. Prior to this a dancing photo of MSMS with begum saheba was posted showing a bucket full of champagne bottles. What message Admin. is trying to convey. May be I am a bad guy but I stand by my Imam and keep defending him. Your this posting has a negative effect on youths.

On the contrary I think if incidences such as these are correctly interpreted, they can strengthen the Iman - that you are not dealing with an ordinary human being but God.

Hiding such information can do more harm than good. It is better for the Jamat to know about these matters and have the correct understanding of the Imam as God, than to continue believing in him as an ordinary human being 'from Allah' as you keep saying.

I don't consider this site as public although accessible to all. This is vindicated by the numbers that view the posts and those who actively participate. Hence it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

The chance of an ordinary individual accessing this site is as good as the chance of one coming across Greenwall's book!

[kmaherali]

ROLE MODEL:

Please check the photo posted by Admin. on front page dated march 10,2016. The photo was taken on inauguration of first Ismaili council in Karachi in the year 1902. All the 13 amaldaris are bearded. When they saw Imam is clean shaved many followed later on, clean shaved. This is the impact of a role model. Since that time almost 90% of male followers are clean shaved.

Good point, no doubt there are many wonderful qualties of the Imam worthy of emulation. However we cannot emulate all aspects of his life. For example, going through multiple divorces can take a heavy emotional and financial toll on a life. Only an Imam can go through them without being effected.

[salimkhoja786]

BARA MAHINEY MEY BARA TARIQEY SEY TUJH KO UULU BANAUNGA RE.

Looks like MAZHAR SHAH KHAN'S ghost is dominating this site past one year.

Ullu!!! Ullu to tu khud ban raha hai!
Admin also shows many time your IP address. but reality is this:
You are making your shelf fool! not me or anybody else in this as long as I am concern then look my older posts in which I had clearly open you, your Bahurupi names and your motto almost 1 and half years ago! so stop making more foolish your shelf.
You may have noticed that after I find out your real aim and your image in Chicago and in Pakistan I have stopped answering your posts.

I did not ask you to give up. You don't have guts to compete. You did not answer my few previous questions. Ok, let me ask you couple of questions;
1. We believe present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor, Is this concept applies to pirs also, that a pir supersedes and make change in ginans? You are good at ginans, I WANT YOUR PERSONAL OPINION.
2.What is your opinion about recent post by Kmaherali regarding consuming of WINE by MSMS, your comments.

[salimkhoja786]

Karim you dented the respect and integrity of MSMS. Was wine quotation necessary to quote? You have provided ammo to opponents of Ismailism particularly in Pakistan and else where, that Imam of khoja Ismaili community consumed wine. I was not expecting such kind of ruthless statement from your side. Prior to this a dancing photo of MSMS with begum saheba was posted showing a bucket full of champagne bottles. What message Admin. is trying to convey. May be I am a bad guy but I stand by my Imam and keep defending him. Your this posting has a negative effect on youths.

On the contrary I think if incidences such as these are correctly interpreted, they can strengthen the Iman - that you are not dealing with an ordinary human being but God.

Hiding such information can do more harm than good. It is better for the Jamat to know about these matters and have the correct understanding of the Imam as God, than to continue believing in him as an ordinary human being 'from Allah' as you keep saying.

I don't consider this site as public although accessible to all. This is vindicated by the numbers that view the posts and those who actively participate. Hence it is appropriate to discuss such matters here.

The chance of an ordinary individual accessing this site is as good as the chance of one coming across Greenwall's book!

Damage is already done. I received few e- mails condemning your wine post.
According to you it might be fine for some conservative murids but majority of educated Ismailis won't buy your argument. Karim this time you shot in your foot. It means Satanic Verses by Rushdi are right.
48TH IMAM CONSUMED ALCOHOL AND 49TH IMAM SAID HE NEVER TOUCHED ALCOHOL, WHAT A CONTRAST?
Your post opened the door for khoja Ismailis to consume liquor without religious harassment. Good job Karim.

[kmaherali]

Damage is already done. I received few e- mails condemning your wine post.
According to you it might be fine for some conservative murids but majority of educated Ismailis won't buy your argument. Karim this time you shot in your foot. It means Satanic Verses by Rushdi are right.
48TH IMAM CONSUMED ALCOHOL AND 49TH IMAM SAID HE NEVER TOUCHED ALCOHOL, WHAT A CONTRAST?
Your post opened the door for khoja Ismailis to consume liquor without religious harassment. Good job Karim.

Damage in the long run is only done by hiding relevant information. I made the post being well aware of the surprise that it may cause some. However I believe that it is the correct information for the Jamat to have in order to appreciate the deeper significance of Imamat beyond his worldly actions.

The contrast in style between the life of the 48th Imam and that of the 49th Imam should not be a matter of concern. Each Imam lives in his own time and behaves accordingly.

My post was intended to impress the notion that the Imam is not human like us and that his actions at times may appear incomprehensible and that we should not take guidance from his actions but what he tells us.

Those who consume alcohol based upon the Imam's actions have no understanding of Imamat.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I also find posting on alcohol in poor taste and selection by regular member.
What a observation made by non Ismaili before seeing the content or tasting it should be disregarded.
BTW table wine is a fermented liqour and and NOT AT ALL high alcohol content as in hard liqours.
Its content is same as in A strong beer.the alcohol content of Corex cough syrup is same as in red table wine.
Wine is a natural drink which Jesus Christ also took part in that customs and that word wine is also mentioned in HB.
the word wine is not a taboo but hard liqour with 70% of alcohol content and getting drunk from it is a Sin.( read farman).
A normal grape juice has 3% alcohol contents so does sugar cane juice and many medicines syrups.
Table red wine being fermented can have 4-12% alcohol contents and all all medical finding report says that drinking that in moderation is good for health(not getting drunk out of consumption of hard liqour).
To Agakhani:
Your third eye is slow.guess who is Sameertrivedi a new member in the forum?
MOMANA BHAI CHETII NE CHALO

[ismaili103]

Damage is already done. I received few e- mails condemning your wine post.
According to you it might be fine for some conservative murids but majority of educated Ismailis won't buy your argument. Karim this time you shot in your foot. It means Satanic Verses by Rushdi are right.
48TH IMAM CONSUMED ALCOHOL AND 49TH IMAM SAID HE NEVER TOUCHED ALCOHOL, WHAT A CONTRAST?
Your post opened the door for khoja Ismailis to consume liquor without religious harassment. Good job Karim.

Damage is already done in our jamat of Khans , Shahs and Chitralis way before we discuss about wine and liquor on this forum. Jamat of Badakshan, Chitral, Broghil Valley, and other area of Gilgit Baltistan are producing and consuming liquor and wine from past 1000 years. Jamat of Chitral are addicted to opium.

Isn't it strange and funny that Khojas and Momans who are saying that Imam can do anything, he can consume alcohol or any thing, but majority of these khojas and Momnas are not consuming it, But those central asian jamat who are condem this are one of the most disgusting Jamat in Karachi, Your People light up the cigraate in Golimaar Jamatkhana, majority of your people in karachi consume alcohol, consume tobacco and drugs etc, one of the guy from your area theft the money of mehmani and dasond from karimabad jamatkhana and fly away. All I can say that , this is what your ancestor were doing who preached you this, ohh and yes I forgot one thing, one of the guy from your area Claim himself as Imam of Ismailis, in Karachi , well he died naturally.

[agakhani_1]

As 103 has wrote above that there is no damage in the hearts of Khojas and Momnas becuase they believe that Imam can do any thing (if SMS had really consume wine,*!!!?? I would like to see that photo first) he can marry four times, can drink wine, race horses, or dance with any gals. we are doing just what he wants us to do!

*SMS consumed wine is questionable in my thinking because showing wine in that photo doesn't mean SMS had consumed it!!it might be for some white peoples or the guests who consumed wine! not for SMS.

[kmaherali]

BTW table wine is a fermented liqour and and NOT AT ALL high alcohol content as in hard liqours.
Its content is same as in A strong beer.the alcohol content of Corex cough syrup is same as in red table wine.
Wine is a natural drink which Jesus Christ also took part in that customs and that word wine is also mentioned in HB.

In our Tariqah and in Islam generally wine is forbidden, regardless of whether the Imam drank it. Why would MSMS say 'I am so holy that when I drink wine, it turns to water.'? If wine was OK to drink the conversion to water would not be necessary!