Recycling of souls.

[Admin]

Obviously what you call Quran is not what other call Quran. Yours is some ink put on paper and limited to some compilation in Arabia.

Others' is something universal and eternal, impossible to capture in few pages, the whole universe is Aya of Quran and certainly not in some pages compiled by unauthorized people who were neither Nabi nor Rasul.

I strongly recommend you to read the appropriate thread on this matter before even remotely referring to anything to do with the "Quran". Once you understand what other people are meaning by This "Quran" and of That "Quran", you will understand automatically about "parts of Quran" and also which Quran was coming out of the Light of Pir Sadardin.

[kmaherali]

I give you credit for being a good manipulator of twisting the meanings and statements in your favor. I understand your dual crisscross intellectual approach. For example;
This is said by Imam and this is by pir.
This is for public and this is for jamait.
This is in interview and this is in speech.
This is from Quran and this is from ginan (of choice ).
This is from memoirs and this is from magazine.
This transcription is from TV and this is from seminar.
This is zahir and this is Batin.
This is ta'wil and this is Tanzil.
This is esoteric and this is exoteric.
This is pluralism and this individualism.
This is a good technique, good approach and good art, compliments..

Indeed, that is the very nature of any esoteric tradition. It cannot have monolithic response for all situations. Each expression or response is a function of the context. A teacher cannot have the same expression when dealing with a kid in a nursery school and a university student. The approaches have to be different.

In the life time of Prophet Muhammad Mowla Ali had completed writing Quran according to Shia traditions. A person like Mowla Ali should not had tolerated any corruption in Quran. When he had fought battles like Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawn should had khuruj against corruption of Quran. But he did not. Did he compromised with the situation, where as Prophet said," HAQQ IS WITH ALI AND ALI IS WITH HAQQ". Haqq is always Haqq can not be corrupted. Also my argument is that Mowla Ali during his tenure as Caliph
did nothing and if there were any mistakes he should have corrected them.
As a Imam as a Caliph that was his responsibility. If there are some parts missing those are in the house of Imamat , why to worry!.

We cannot be sure about the exact circumstances of Hazarat Ali's khilafat but the 48th Imam has told us that Uthman tampered with the Qur'an, so that should be enough for us to understand the nature of compilation.

When Imam spent millions of dollars on museum and kept obsolete copies of complete Quran there should have kept a parts of Quran for his spiritual chidren in a corner on shelf so that they should not have been fighting on this matter..

The museum was not built only for the purpose of exposing the Qur'an. It was meant for the exposition of the entire Islamic culture. There is no need to fight over the matter because the Imam has told us that our Ginans comprise the quintessence of the Qur'an, so the Jamat should know what the actual Qur'an is. I don't think our youth should have any problem understanding that the compilation by Uthaman was unauthorised and it was corrupted.

Did Imam ever asked the ITREB, or some panel, or IIS or some top missionaries to prepare parts of Quran book for Ismailis? What you think as a scholar or what in your opinion are the parts of Quran appropriate for Ismailis?.

There is no need for the Imam to ask the scholars to prepare parts of the Qur'an because we already have them in the form of Ginans. It would be a waste of time. I have given my opinion in my previous post in response to tret. Please read the post.

Pir Sadruddin wrote (kitabat) of Quran, did he wrote only parts of Quran or complete Quran?
Did pir Sadruddin wrote," pir Sadardin yara parhe parts of Quran!".
MSMS said, pir Sadruddin explained tafseer of Quran in ginans, he never mentioned tafseer of parts of Quran. I believe my Imam mentioned to youth in that gathering to study parts of Quran included in RC curriculim, because at that time surah Naas, Falak, Ikhlas and some ayats on Imamat and ethics were included in Rc courses and Imam pointed out to those, because parts of Quran type of farman is not said by our previous Imams from Mowla Ali to MSMS and I believe HI did not meant that..

MSMS has told us that Pir Sadardeen has provided the tafsir of the Qur'an. He did not mean the Uthmanic Qur'an but the Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet. The Ginans mention Das Avtaar. Is there any mention of Das Avtaar in the Uthmanic Qur'an? Then how could he have written or recited the Uthamanic Qur'an?

No doubt Quran is a universal message as Imam mentioned, is this message in parts?
Hindus and Christians do not believe in Quran, why they will compare their deities with Allah, they are talking and writing against Allah and Islam! They think their deities are superior than Allah.

Any scripture can be considered in parts. In all traditions scriptures are studied in parts. All the tafseers that are considered by the IIS are in parts or themes. Have you read any IIS publication on the Qur'an. If you do read them, you will find that they are all considered in parts, not the entire Qur'an.
The issue is not whether the Hindus and Christians believe in the Qur'an, it is rather whether the words of the Qur'an such as Allah can be interpretated allegorically or not.

[ismaili103]

You quote Memoirs," Krishna was a divinely inspired messenger". So Krishan
was a messenger and not Allah.
In 1951, at Karachi Ismailia Association gathering MSMS said," HARI KO ALI KARDO AUR DAS AVTAR CHHORR DO".
Also MSMS said in farman," HINDU NI WATTU ILM MA PARHO CHHO TEY WAJIB NATHI".

According to the farmans of Imam, Ginans of Pirs and our old dua, Krishna was the Imam of the time. Imam also said that he was divinely inspired messenger, so its is not a big deal its possible that Krishna was Imam as well as Prophet(Pir) at the same time, just like Hazir Imam is Imam and Pir at the same time.

And the same Imam sultan mohd shah a.s said that " its the responsibility of the missionaries to interpret Dasavatar to the jamat under islamic point of view".

So I prefer farman over tariqah board gathering.

Dasavatar is not a bedtime story,

Its the concept of manifestation on divine Noor ( Imam e Mubeen, which we recite 3 times in our dua).
Its the concept of evolution of different organism and concept of Imamat under those organisms.

The problem is we read Darwin theory, watch stephen hawkings show with very interest, but when we read the same information with more undiscovered theories and predictions in 1000 years old Ginans,we get offended and reject it by saying " Hindu Ki Baatien"

Only a open mided person who seriously want to learn something from Ginans can understand that .

Vishnu is not hindu ki baatien, its Allah
Brahma is Nabi
Hari is Ali
Prakash varsh is light years
uran rat ghora is Aeroplane
Anu na Gola is Atom bomb
Burst of the egg and creation according to Ginan is none other than Big bang.

Those above words are mentioned in Ginans. And many more are mentioned.

[sameernoorani5]

Obviously what you call Quran is not what other call Quran. Yours is some ink put on paper and limited to some compilation in Arabia.

Others' is something universal and eternal, impossible to capture in few pages, the whole universe is Aya of Quran and certainly not in some pages compiled by unauthorized people who were neither Nabi nor Rasul.

I strongly recommend you to read the appropriate thread on this matter before even remotely referring to anything to do with the "Quran". Once you understand what other people are meaning by This "Quran" and of That "Quran", you will understand automatically about "parts of Quran" and also which Quran was coming out of the Light of Pir Sadardin.

As an educated person, you suggested to me," yours (Quran) is some ink put on a paper". Sir ko pittu(n) ya rou(n) jigar ko mai(n). If Quran is some ink put on paper then same is applicable to ginans and farmans also.
This is a separate debate that whole universe is ayat of Quran. According to you, " some pages compiled by unauthorized people", well, that unauthorized Quran was respected and kissed by present Imam, and he has talked a lot about the existing Quran. Now for that act, do you want to fire him from Imamat.You dare not, you know consequences!!
Let me ask you a question, pir Sadruddin for his lively hood used to write Quran to sell as hadiyah, did he wrote only selected surahs and ayats
in parts or complete Quran? Was that some kind of new Quran? Of course not but that was the same Othmani Quran he did kitaabat of it.

[sameernoorani5]

You quote Memoirs," Krishna was a divinely inspired messenger". So Krishan
was a messenger and not Allah.
In 1951, at Karachi Ismailia Association gathering MSMS said," HARI KO ALI KARDO AUR DAS AVTAR CHHORR DO".
Also MSMS said in farman," HINDU NI WATTU ILM MA PARHO CHHO TEY WAJIB NATHI".

According to the farmans of Imam, Ginans of Pirs and our old dua, Krishna was the Imam of the time. Imam also said that he was divinely inspired messenger, so its is not a big deal its possible that Krishna was Imam as well as Prophet(Pir) at the same time, just like Hazir Imam is Imam and Pir at the same time.

And the same Imam sultan mohd shah a.s said that " its the responsibility of the missionaries to interpret Dasavatar to the jamat under islamic point of view".

So I prefer farman over tariqah board gathering.

Dasavatar is not a bedtime story,

Its the concept of manifestation on divine Noor ( Imam e Mubeen, which we recite 3 times in our dua).
Its the concept of evolution of different organism and concept of Imamat under those organisms.

The problem is we read Darwin theory, watch stephen hawkings show with very interest, but when we read the same information with more undiscovered theories and predictions in 1000 years old Ginans,we get offended and reject it by saying " Hindu Ki Baatien"

Only a open mided person who seriously want to learn something from Ginans can understand that .

Vishnu is not hindu ki baatien, its Allah
Brahma is Nabi
Hari is Ali
Prakash varsh is light years
uran rat ghora is Aeroplane
Anu na Gola is Atom bomb
Burst of the egg and creation according to Ginan is none other than Big bang.

Those above words are mentioned in Ginans. And many more are mentioned.

Ismailism is a very simple religion. Obey Allah, obey Rasul, and obey Imam of the time, but some of our scholars and missionaries and researchers have made it complicated.
MSMS in KIM said," in 70 years of my Imamat, I changed farmans 70 times". He also said, Obey the farman of present Imam. The two farmans which I quoted of MSMS are not fabricated, He said in karachi in 1951 in Urdu that,"HARI KO ALI KARDO, AUR DUS AVTAR CHHORR D0" and other one is from KIM.Now as an Ismaili you accept it or not that is up to you. After 1950 MSMS made drastic changes. Example is Du'a and saying DUS AVTAR CHHORR DO. Why he said? Imams know better. Being an Ismaili I have to follow what he says in farman.
For youth DUS AVTAR is kind of stories, they read lots of different material on internet. INTERNET HAS CHANGED THE MENTALITY OF YOUTH AND IMAM KNOWS THAT TREND AND HE CHANGES THE THE FARMANS ACCORDINGLY. Imam is worried about youth and that is clear from his recent farmans and Hidayat.
Can you quote the ginans with pir names in which pirs have mentioned;
Uran rot ghora
Anu na gola.

[sameernoorani5]

Ya Ali Madad:
Nice to see qualitative scholastic reply from ShamsB and Kmaherali.
One is debating with a very cunning living creature who see that the book of poems having jack n Jill,ringa ringa rose to there in 4th grade is school,colleges and PhD.
as these book still forms a part of nursery curriculum.
In a same way what IMAM SMS said in selection of ginans,MHI hinted but rather ordered to know those parts.
It simply tell that those in know of Baatin will know that and it not open for all to understand n explain those.
As to posting of Admin on water somewhere early.As water is one of a miracle of God's creation. Just by praying a kalima or mantra into water n drink it as blessing n gift of God has it own holistic view and heath benefit.
If study is done IT WILL SHOW that from many religions in foremost Ismailis as an ritual drink that water assumed HOLY has lowest case of blood cancer n to some extent even prostate Cancer. They also are least prone to acidity.
Our very ABHE SHAFA will prove to be a holistic prevention to a very great extent for blood cancer,for which no formidable cure is still found on earth.
I will put it on App called ALI (Almighty Lives Inside).God is within us not in xxx/xxxx years old poems or books.
I feel all members must IGNORE to a non Ismaili at ignorant or common sense level quoting ayats of the holy book.

Are you scared or shy to write numbers 700/1400. You wrote xxx/xxxx years of old poems and books. When you do not believe in Quran/farman/ginans, why are you wasting your time and energy, it is also like ringa ringa.
Your research is wrong that by consuming holy water blood cancer or prostate cancer is on lower level or disappear. I have seen few Ismailis suffered from blood cancer, though regular in JK and consuming holy water passed away.

[kmaherali]

This is a separate debate that whole universe is ayat of Quran. According to you, " some pages compiled by unauthorized people", well, that unauthorized Quran was respected and kissed by present Imam, and he has talked a lot about the existing Quran. Now for that act, do you want to fire him from Imamat.You dare not, you know consequences!!
Let me ask you a question, pir Sadruddin for his lively hood used to write Quran to sell as hadiyah, did he wrote only selected surahs and ayats
in parts or complete Quran? Was that some kind of new Quran? Of course not but that was the same Othmani Quran he did kitaabat of it.

We do not take guidance from the actions of the Pirs. We follow what they tell us to do. Whether they perform Hajj, fast all year, meditate for 16 hours even drink alcohol or have 100 wives should not be our concern. We should be concerened about what they tell us.

[Admin]

In 1951, at Karachi Ismailia Association gathering MSMS said," HARI KO ALI KARDO AUR DAS AVTAR CHHORR DO". .

This of course is a fabricaton. "Hari ko Ali karo" was fabricated and chalenged by Shamshu Tejpar, the Chairman for Ismailia Association for Africa Conference in the 1969 World Ismailia Association and Kassamali Missionary had to accept that it was not true.

You also know about it and are repeating this brain washing lies. I think you have been tolerated because people already know how much twisting you are making of our faith. Do not be surprised if you are ejected from this board without warning.

[sameernoorani5]

We believe present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor ; Is this concept applies to pirs also, that a pir supersedes and make change in ginans according to time.

Still waiting for reply for above question from my ginani friends, ginan lovers and heritage scholars. Please wake up and reply, thanks.

[sameernoorani5]

In 1951, at Karachi Ismailia Association gathering MSMS said," HARI KO ALI KARDO AUR DAS AVTAR CHHORR DO". .

This of course is a fabricaton. "Hari ko Ali karo" was fabricated and chalenged by Shamshu Tejpar, the Chairman for Ismailia Association for Africa Conference in the 1969 World Ismailia Association and Kassamali Missionary had to accept that it was not true.

You also know about it and are repeating this brain washing lies. I think you have been tolerated because people already know how much twisting you are making of our faith. Do not be surprised if you are ejected from this board without warning.

What I wrote, I have a hard copy of that. Do you have any hard proof of
dialogue between Shams Tejpur and late alwaiz Qassim ali.You are well aware that in 1969 ginanic literature was classified and the tussle arose there on classification which was resolve by instructions from HI.
Let me ask you a question, answer honestly. Central Asian Ismailis, Afghani Ismailis, Chinese Ismailis, Chitrali Ismailis and Hunza Ismailis do not believe in INDIAN MYTHOLOGY AND DUS AVTARS, WILL THEY ALL GO IN HELL?

[sameernoorani5]

This is a separate debate that whole universe is ayat of Quran. According to you, " some pages compiled by unauthorized people", well, that unauthorized Quran was respected and kissed by present Imam, and he has talked a lot about the existing Quran. Now for that act, do you want to fire him from Imamat.You dare not, you know consequences!!
Let me ask you a question, pir Sadruddin for his lively hood used to write Quran to sell as hadiyah, did he wrote only selected surahs and ayats
in parts or complete Quran? Was that some kind of new Quran? Of course not but that was the same Othmani Quran he did kitaabat of it.

We do not take guidance from the actions of the Pirs. We follow what they tell us to do. Whether they perform Hajj, fast all year, meditate for 16 hours even drink alcohol or have 100 wives should not be our concern. We should be concerened about what they tell us.

Thanks for addition in my knowledge that pir saheb drank alcohol, now why are our missionaries bashing Ismailis who drink! I do not know whether Pir saheb had 100 wives. I do not want to involve in private family matters.
You know well what is the meaning of FOLLOWER. We ismailis follow our pirs, if pir went on Hajj why not followers, they are roll models. In worldly affairs one can say;
HUM YAAR KI YAARI KO DEKHTEY HAI(N), FA'IL KO NAHI(N), this is a urdu proverb no one should provoke including Admin he does not know deep Urdu. But religion is a strict and serious matter. Let me ask a serious question, Was MATA SALAMAT follower of pir Sadruddin or not?

[sameernoorani5]

I give you credit for being a good manipulator of twisting the meanings and statements in your favor. I understand your dual crisscross intellectual approach. For example;
This is said by Imam and this is by pir.
This is for public and this is for jamait.
This is in interview and this is in speech.
This is from Quran and this is from ginan (of choice ).
This is from memoirs and this is from magazine.
This transcription is from TV and this is from seminar.
This is zahir and this is Batin.
This is ta'wil and this is Tanzil.
This is esoteric and this is exoteric.
This is pluralism and this individualism.
This is a good technique, good approach and good art, compliments..

Indeed, that is the very nature of any esoteric tradition. It cannot have monolithic response for all situations. Each expression or response is a function of the context. A teacher cannot have the same expression when dealing with a kid in a nursery school and a university student. The approaches have to be different.

In the life time of Prophet Muhammad Mowla Ali had completed writing Quran according to Shia traditions. A person like Mowla Ali should not had tolerated any corruption in Quran. When he had fought battles like Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawn should had khuruj against corruption of Quran. But he did not. Did he compromised with the situation, where as Prophet said," HAQQ IS WITH ALI AND ALI IS WITH HAQQ". Haqq is always Haqq can not be corrupted. Also my argument is that Mowla Ali during his tenure as Caliph
did nothing and if there were any mistakes he should have corrected them.
As a Imam as a Caliph that was his responsibility. If there are some parts missing those are in the house of Imamat , why to worry!.

We cannot be sure about the exact circumstances of Hazarat Ali's khilafat but the 48th Imam has told us that Uthman tampered with the Qur'an, so that should be enough for us to understand the nature of compilation.

When Imam spent millions of dollars on museum and kept obsolete copies of complete Quran there should have kept a parts of Quran for his spiritual chidren in a corner on shelf so that they should not have been fighting on this matter..

The museum was not built only for the purpose of exposing the Qur'an. It was meant for the exposition of the entire Islamic culture. There is no need to fight over the matter because the Imam has told us that our Ginans comprise the quintessence of the Qur'an, so the Jamat should know what the actual Qur'an is. I don't think our youth should have any problem understanding that the compilation by Uthaman was unauthorised and it was corrupted.

Did Imam ever asked the ITREB, or some panel, or IIS or some top missionaries to prepare parts of Quran book for Ismailis? What you think as a scholar or what in your opinion are the parts of Quran appropriate for Ismailis?.

There is no need for the Imam to ask the scholars to prepare parts of the Qur'an because we already have them in the form of Ginans. It would be a waste of time. I have given my opinion in my previous post in response to tret. Please read the post.

Pir Sadruddin wrote (kitabat) of Quran, did he wrote only parts of Quran or complete Quran?
Did pir Sadruddin wrote," pir Sadardin yara parhe parts of Quran!".
MSMS said, pir Sadruddin explained tafseer of Quran in ginans, he never mentioned tafseer of parts of Quran. I believe my Imam mentioned to youth in that gathering to study parts of Quran included in RC curriculim, because at that time surah Naas, Falak, Ikhlas and some ayats on Imamat and ethics were included in Rc courses and Imam pointed out to those, because parts of Quran type of farman is not said by our previous Imams from Mowla Ali to MSMS and I believe HI did not meant that..

MSMS has told us that Pir Sadardeen has provided the tafsir of the Qur'an. He did not mean the Uthmanic Qur'an but the Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet. The Ginans mention Das Avtaar. Is there any mention of Das Avtaar in the Uthmanic Qur'an? Then how could he have written or recited the Uthamanic Qur'an?

No doubt Quran is a universal message as Imam mentioned, is this message in parts?
Hindus and Christians do not believe in Quran, why they will compare their deities with Allah, they are talking and writing against Allah and Islam! They think their deities are superior than Allah.

Any scripture can be considered in parts. In all traditions scriptures are studied in parts. All the tafseers that are considered by the IIS are in parts or themes. Have you read any IIS publication on the Qur'an. If you do read them, you will find that they are all considered in parts, not the entire Qur'an.
The issue is not whether the Hindus and Christians believe in the Qur'an, it is rather whether the words of the Qur'an such as Allah can be interpretated allegorically or not.

You wrote," Indeed that is very nature of any esoteric tradition...."
It is true that there are different courses for primary and university students,
Now think about youth with different levels of religious IQs. All youths are not on same level of intelligence, so we have to start from basics to explain them Ismaili faith.
Obey Allah
Obey Rasul
Obey Imam of the time.

Mostly subcontinent Khojas believe Ali as Allah, now youth is asking," Was Ali as God handicap to resolve the Quran issue. Being as God he should have resolved the issue so that future generations should have stopped fighting and live the peaceful lives. Either he left the issue unsolved deliberately or Gods hands were tied.

You people stress that Quran is in parts, if that was the situation, like 1969 conference on ginans he should had called a conference on Quran, which he did not means Quran as a book is not an issue.

MSMS's statment of Osmani Quran is in the context of Shia tradition.
It is a farman of MSMS in KIM, " My Arab mureeds follow the faith by reading
Quran", obviously he was talking of existing Quran in book form, he did not used the words parts of Quran.

Central Asian, Chinese and Arab Ismailis do not replace word Allah with Krishna and Rama, if these words were so important Imam should have induced in our daily Du'a.

[ismaili103]

Was MATA SALAMAT follower of pir Sadruddin or not?

Mata salamat was one of the 50 Pirs of ismailis, it means she was the possessor of Noor e Muhammad, so she cant be follower of Pir sadardin , because she herself was possesor of that Noor.

PEHLE ANDAY MA SE TO BAHAR AJAO, PHR BAAT KARENGE...ADVOCATE MAZHAR SHAH.

And BTW Pir and Imam can drink, do wrong acts only to examine our faith, thier is a anecdote that once Pir Saddardin spend the night in the house of a Prostitute and next day 1000 of ismailis became ignorant, disobient and unfaithful.

The time is not far when Imam will drink alchol only to examine our faith, and I am sure next day 1000's of Khan, Shah's and Chitralis will beacame Non ismailis, note my words and magnet it up on your fridge.

[ismaili103]

Mostly Subcontinent Khoja Belives Ali as Allah

Did you personally meet million of Khojas of Sub continent, here in Pakistan I am really frustrated that within the jamat of 35000 in karimabad JK, I only meet 5-10 people believe in Ali Allah.

I can even assure that only 1 % in Subcontinent believe Ali Allah, 99% did not believe in that. Sad for them.

[kmaherali]

We believe present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor ; Is this concept applies to pirs also, that a pir supersedes and make change in ginans according to time.

Still waiting for reply for above question from my ginani friends, ginan lovers and heritage scholars. Please wake up and reply, thanks.

MHI has said that Ginans are a Wonderful Tradition. A tradition is something that passes from generation to generation without changing:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

In another Farman he said:

" I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world."(Nairobi, Oct 5th 1982)

[kmaherali]

Let me ask you a question, answer honestly. Central Asian Ismailis, Afghani Ismailis, Chinese Ismailis, Chitrali Ismailis and Hunza Ismailis do not believe in INDIAN MYTHOLOGY AND DUS AVTARS, WILL THEY ALL GO IN HELL?

No they won't and nobody has said that if a person does not believe in Indian mythology and Das Avtaar will go to hell.

But there is strength in diversity. There is no reason why they should not learn about Indian mythology just as there is no reason for khojas not to learn about the Qasidas and other literature from the Central Asian Jamats.

[kmaherali]

Thanks for addition in my knowledge that pir saheb drank alcohol, now why are our missionaries bashing Ismailis who drink! I do not know whether Pir saheb had 100 wives. I do not want to involve in private family matters.
You know well what is the meaning of FOLLOWER. We ismailis follow our pirs, if pir went on Hajj why not followers, they are roll models. In worldly affairs one can say;
HUM YAAR KI YAARI KO DEKHTEY HAI(N), FA'IL KO NAHI(N), this is a urdu proverb no one should provoke including Admin he does not know deep Urdu. But religion is a strict and serious matter. Let me ask a serious question, Was MATA SALAMAT follower of pir Sadruddin or not?

What I have said is that we don't follow what the Pirs do but what they tell us to do. They are not our role models.

Mata Salamat was not a murid of the Pir for most of her life. She may have become a nurid at the later stage of her life.

[kmaherali]

Mostly subcontinent Khojas believe Ali as Allah, now youth is asking," Was Ali as God handicap to resolve the Quran issue. Being as God he should have resolved the issue so that future generations should have stopped fighting and live the peaceful lives. Either he left the issue unsolved deliberately or Gods hands were tied.

You people stress that Quran is in parts, if that was the situation, like 1969 conference on ginans he should had called a conference on Quran, which he did not means Quran as a book is not an issue..

As far as the Jamat is concerned there is no issue of the Qur'an. The Imam has said that the tafseer of the Qur'an is in the Ginans. There is no need to fight if you accept the Farman of the Imam. There is no need for a separate conference if we already have a tafseer of the Qur'an.

MSMS's statment of Osmani Quran is in the context of Shia tradition.
It is a farman of MSMS in KIM, " My Arab mureeds follow the faith by reading Quran", obviously he was talking of existing Quran in book form, he did not used the words parts of Quran.

Central Asian, Chinese and Arab Ismailis do not replace word Allah with Krishna and Rama, if these words were so important Imam should have induced in our daily Du'a.

Can you provide the date and place of the Farman, I would like to read it.

I never suggested that Ismailis should interpret Allah as something else. All I said was that it can be interpreted by people of other faiths according to their understanding. So a Hindu may interpret it as Krishna. The issue was whether it is allegorical or not.

[tret]

But there is strength in diversity. There is no reason why they should not learn about Indian mythology just as there is no reason for khojas not to learn about the Qasidas and other literature from the Central Asian Jamats.

The question is really not about qasida or ginan. The question sameer asked was indian mythology. Now, during the Fatimid and pre-fatimid, I wonder if Ismailis were following das avatar or indian mythology?
So, the question is should indian mythology/das avatar be understood in ismaili [or more specifically, within Ismaili] context? or should Islamic [or more specifically, Ismaili] concept should adapt indian mythology and das avatar?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
If one is addressing all as YOU ISMAILIS then it is a common sense to conclude that person is a non Ismaili.
Reports on blood cancer n others stated that area of badakshan has one tenth the average of incidence of blood cancer against the average of western.
I also know of two deaths of prostate cancer in last 20 year in my Jk community.
It is 30% in western countries.
One tenth means 90% immunity when ALI ALI flows into the viens of the believers.( haqiqati belief is important)
Somebody has sent study to cancer organizations for deeper study and analysis.
Sadly science only believes in body and mind and not the soul.
Now they are awakening to something central unseen connection
In genes mapping,God particle, relative gravity in space for which the search is still on.

[kmaherali]

The question is really not about qasida or ginan. The question sameer asked was indian mythology. Now, during the Fatimid and pre-fatimid, I wonder if Ismailis were following das avatar or indian mythology?
So, the question is should indian mythology/das avatar be understood in ismaili [or more specifically, within Ismaili] context? or should Islamic [or more specifically, Ismaili] concept should adapt indian mythology and das avatar?

"While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered."(MHI, Friday, September 25, 1964)

Where are thousands of years of history? The Fatimid and pre-Fatimid periods are insignificant when thousands of years are considered.

"Some part of Hindu mythology in our teaching has a great deal of allegorical value and must be kept up." (MSMS at the Ismailia Mission Conference in July 1945)

You may continue discussion on Das Avtaar in the following thread after going through it:
The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=344

[salimkhoja786]

Imam Ja'far Sadiq said," Some times God makes a command that he does not wish to be obeyed, and some times he wants that which he has forbidden. He ordered Iblis to prostrate before Adam, while desiring him not to do so, for if he had so desired, Iblis would have done so. He forbade Adam to eat of the tree, while desiring him to do so, where as if he had not desired, Adam would not have eaten thereof. ( Usul e Kafi )

[salimkhoja786]

Who recited 'NIKAH KHUTBAH' of Hazrat Adam and Bibi Hawah. If no one then progeny of Adam will be considered illegitimate! Isn't so!

[salimkhoja786]

If your slate is so clean, why did you create Satan?
You say that one should not pay attention to Satan's wicked words.

Yet you have given him refuge in my skin and veins,
so he can wink and encourage me to do bad deeds.

You order us, to do our devotions and
Satan to run wild in our body and soul.

You create a commotion, so the deer may flee
then spur on the hound to pursue the chase.

I have much to say, but I do not dare
I am so frightened, I can not breathe.

Seyyedna Nasir Khusraw.

[salimkhoja786]

Hallaj said;

" God said to Iblis,' free will is mine, not yours'. Iblis humbly replied;' All free will, including mine is yours. I chose you over myself, and when you prevented me from prostrating, you were " the Preventer". If I have erred in what I have said, do not reject me. If you had wanted me to prostrate before him (Adam), I would have obeyed. Amongst the gnostics , there is not one who knows you better than me". (Tawaseen, Al Hallaj)

[salimkhoja786]

Was MATA SALAMAT follower of pir Sadruddin or not?

Mata salamat was one of the 50 Pirs of ismailis, it means she was the possessor of Noor e Muhammad, so she cant be follower of Pir sadardin , because she herself was possesor of that Noor.

PEHLE ANDAY MA SE TO BAHAR AJAO, PHR BAAT KARENGE...ADVOCATE MAZHAR SHAH.

And BTW Pir and Imam can drink, do wrong acts only to examine our faith, thier is a anecdote that once Pir Saddardin spend the night in the house of a Prostitute and next day 1000 of ismailis became ignorant, disobient and unfaithful.

The time is not far when Imam will drink alchol only to examine our faith, and I am sure next day 1000's of Khan, Shah's and Chitralis will beacame Non ismailis, note my words and magnet it up on your fridge.

The question was asked about Mata Salamat Umm e Habiba and not Sarkar Mata Salamat. Being an Ismaili and wife of Imam, Begum Umm e Habiba performed 3 Hajj.
Don't you people have some better examples or anecdotes regarding Imams and pirs. One is writing pir consumed alcohol, other is writing pir spend night in the house of prostitute or Imam will consume alcohol to examine his murids. I think Imam has scores of other ways to examine his murids.
What message you are conveying to non Ismailis, that Imam and pirs are alcoholics!!

[salimkhoja786]

Mostly Subcontinent Khoja Belives Ali as Allah

Did you personally meet million of Khojas of Sub continent, here in Pakistan I am really frustrated that within the jamat of 35000 in karimabad JK, I only meet 5-10 people believe in Ali Allah.

I can even assure that only 1 % in Subcontinent believe Ali Allah, 99% did not believe in that. Sad for them.

Did you analysed the situation? Why is this shift? You are admitting that out of 35000 in Karimabad area Karachi only few believe in Ali Allah and only 1% of subcontinent Ismailis believe Ali as Allah. Same situation is in central Asian jamaits as well in North American and European jamaits. In 1975 Ismailia Association Paris conference, on Imam's Hidayat the Imamah was explained as that " Imam is Mazhar of Allah and not God himself and immediately missionaries were stopped from delivering waizes on the subject Ali Allah. That was Imam's Hidayat and jamaits followed the Hidayat except few. Recently for Indan jamaits Hazar Imam's Hidayat is to remember Allah.

[salimkhoja786]

We believe present Imam supersedes farman of his predecessor ; Is this concept applies to pirs also, that a pir supersedes and make change in ginans according to time.

Still waiting for reply for above question from my ginani friends, ginan lovers and heritage scholars. Please wake up and reply, thanks.

MHI has said that Ginans are a Wonderful Tradition. A tradition is something that passes from generation to generation without changing:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

In another Farman he said:

" I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world."(Nairobi, Oct 5th 1982)

You did not addressed the question properly. No doubt ginans are unique and wonderful tradition but question is," Ismailis believe that the present Imam supersedes farman of his predessesor, Is this concept applies to pirs as well where a pir supersedes previous pirs before him and make changes in ginans according to time"? Please answer YES or NO.

[kmaherali]

You did not addressed the question properly. No doubt ginans are unique and wonderful tradition but question is," Ismailis believe that the present Imam supersedes farman of his predessesor, Is this concept applies to pirs as well where a pir supersedes previous pirs before him and make changes in ginans according to time"? Please answer YES or NO.

I have studied the Ginans of many Pirs written over several centuries and I have noted not much change in the eternal message between them. The concept of Imamat, Dasond, Dua sukreet Ibadat have been emphasized by all Pirs. I haven't noted any variation.

One change that I have noticed is relating to the baar poori (36 hour ) fast for beej. That has been reduced in today's circumstances to 12 hours.

The Ginan is a tradition which does not change easily unless there are very strong reasons to do so.

[ismaili103]

The question was asked about Mata Salamat Umm e Habiba and not Sarkar Mata Salamat. Being an Ismaili and wife of Imam, Begum Umm e Habiba performed 3 Hajj.
Don't you people have some better examples or anecdotes regarding Imams and pirs. One is writing pir consumed alcohol, other is writing pir spend night in the house of prostitute or Imam will consume alcohol to examine his murids. I think Imam has scores of other ways to examine his murids.
What message you are conveying to non Ismailis, that Imam and pirs are alcoholics!!

Imam can do anything to examine our faith, drinking alcohol are just examples, He can even do worst thing which we can't even imagine only to examine our faith.

And no one is conveying wrong msgs to non ismailis, they are free to think whatever they want to think, I personally encounter with non ismailis who abuse Imam infront of my face, I didn't even care, because I know by droping a drop of alcohol in ocean, ocean will not become dirty.