first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

He made it in Hindi/Urdu which was the language of the place he was born.

I think he made all his Farmans in Persian which were then translated into Gujerati/Hindi/Urdu in his presence.

[kmaherali]

In what language MSMS at age of 8 delivered his very first Farman / Khutba, was that Arabic, Persian, English, or Hindi/Urdu. Also who wrote that Khutba.

Your question demonstrates your total ignorance of the status of the Imam. He made Farman ex-tempore and you know what he said as an 8 year old child, just see...

Haqq Maulaana Dhani Salaamat Dataar Sarkaar Agaa Sultan Mohammad Shah Hazar Imam Taarik 17-8-1885 ne vaar somvaarna lagbhag aath (8) Warsh ni vaiy-ey Imamat ni masnad upar birajmaan thayaa pachee laghbhag pandar(15) diwas baad potey Shree Darkhaney padhaari ,Takht upar biraajee jamat-ney didaar aapi farmavyu :-

“Hey Jamaato tamey amney naanaa nahi samjho. Amey aal-ey-Rasool chieye aney amaara daadaa Hazarat Amirrul Mominin chhe aney amaari daadee Hazarat Bibi Fatima chey.Amey Ali aney Nabi ban-ney na noor chieye.Umar ma jokey naana tou chieye; pun motaa chieye.Hazarat Maula Murtaza Ali naanaa hataa, magar potaani jawaan vaiy-ye khaybar no kil-lou fateh karyo hato aney kil-laana darwaajaa-ney khaaiy upar pakadi raakhee sagadaa lashkar ney tenaa upar thi pasaar karaavyu aney jibraa naam na kaafar ney maaree naakhyo hato.”

Can an 8 year old child talk like that in front of thousands?

[Admin]

I think he made all his Farmans in Persian which were then translated into Gujerati/Hindi/Urdu in his presence.

it is true that he made some of his Farmans in Persian and they were translated by Kamadia Haji but many of his Farmans were made in Urdu/Hindi since the beginning and all of his Farmans in Africa were made in Hindi translated immediately in Gujrati by one of the famous missionaries of their time. The Hindi Farmans were witnessed by my parents and grand-parents.

That was also the language he was using when sitting in families Mehmani. According to my mother now 88 years old) people who had family Mehmani used to sit in group with all members of the family and while he would sit with one family, a chair would be brought to the next family and once Imam would end the conversation with the first family , Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah would go to the on the second chair and talk to that family in Hindi also. The chair from the first family, thus empty would be moved to the next family in line. A family Mehmani would have 10 or even 20 members some times.

[tret]

In what language MSMS at age of 8 delivered his very first Farman / Khutba, was that Arabic, Persian, English, or Hindi/Urdu. Also who wrote that Khutba.

Your question demonstrates your total ignorance of the status of the Imam. He made Farman ex-tempore and you know what he said as an 8 year old child, just see...

Haqq Maulaana Dhani Salaamat Dataar Sarkaar Agaa Sultan Mohammad Shah Hazar Imam Taarik 17-8-1885 ne vaar somvaarna lagbhag aath (8) Warsh ni vaiy-ey Imamat ni masnad upar birajmaan thayaa pachee laghbhag pandar(15) diwas baad potey Shree Darkhaney padhaari ,Takht upar biraajee jamat-ney didaar aapi farmavyu :-

“Hey Jamaato tamey amney naanaa nahi samjho. Amey aal-ey-Rasool chieye aney amaara daadaa Hazarat Amirrul Mominin chhe aney amaari daadee Hazarat Bibi Fatima chey.Amey Ali aney Nabi ban-ney na noor chieye.Umar ma jokey naana tou chieye; pun motaa chieye.Hazarat Maula Murtaza Ali naanaa hataa, magar potaani jawaan vaiy-ye khaybar no kil-lou fateh karyo hato aney kil-laana darwaajaa-ney khaaiy upar pakadi raakhee sagadaa lashkar ney tenaa upar thi pasaar karaavyu aney jibraa naam na kaafar ney maaree naakhyo hato.”

Can an 8 year old child talk like that in front of thousands?

Would you be able to provide an english translation, please?

[kmaherali]

Would you be able to provide an english translation, please?

The unique event of the installation of the 48th Imam is given in late Alwaez Shamshuddin Bandali Haji's book "Noor en Allah Noor". The important messages such as Imamat since the beginning and Dasond in the Farman are translated and given there on page 306 onwards and can be accessed online at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... -320_0.pdf

I would encourage you to read the entire book which can be downloaded at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

[Admin]

Actualy when Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah made his 2.5 hour first Farman without reading, he was not even 8 years old. It was on 17 August 1885, three months before his November 8th birthday. (Birth 2 Novembre 1877) so he became Imam at the tender age of 7 years, 9 months and 16 days

[dawlatshahchitrali]

Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 3542

PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
nuseri wrote:
ya ALI madad.
I feel a member are trying to reply is TOTALLY fxxxxd n screwed up non Ismaili imam hater.
A line of of that of cursed person is real punishement to admin after life.
ADMIN THIS WARNING To YOU as you are the chief disaster in this website.
To hell with with your khojamism n respect for ALI.
YOU ARE ON a cursed path yourself.


I have just deleted the accounts of Mazarshah and his aliases. You are next in line unless you start using polite language. There is no place here for disrespectful people. I think you are a grater disaster then Mazhar though you may have more love for the Imam but I have never seen in your post any respect for anyone nor humility. If you are not comfortable just leave the Forum it will not be a great loss. You wil see that the world does not stop.


To Admin,
Message from Mazhar Shah to Admin as received,
You wrote to Nuseri," I think you are a greater disaster than Mazhar". You deleted my account abruptly on a threat of no value from Nuseri but kept his account alive with just a light slap on his wrist. This is not justified. He in between lines threatened you in the thread 'Recyling of souls', I cornered him by counter questioning and you disappeared not only his post but my 6 posts with him too. May be you were scared. Nuseri called you chief disaster in his above post, he cursed you for real punishment, he wrote ' to hell with khojaism, in his other posts he wrote ginans are CRAP, ginans are JUNK, he does not believe in dead pirs. He bang banged GINAN LOVERS, THEY ARE SILENT and disappeared. He used the words 'F****D', and in other post 'A**'
Is nuseri a HOLY COW can't be slaughtered? Before deleting my account you should have given me a chance to answer yours, Nuseri's and Kmaherali's posts but all of sudden by deleting my account you showed your cunning and biased nature. I want you to reinstate my account so that I shall reply to (brainless) intellectual of 21st century, Mr Nuseri.

[Admin]

To Admin,
Message from Mazhar Shah to Admin as received,
You wrote to Nuseri,

Nuseiri in many of his posting is completely screwed up. Agreed But he does not hide himself behind different aliases. You do. This is why you got deleted first. it does not mean others will not follow.

I am sad that some of those who post here have such a vulgar language and low intellectual level discussion that they scare away the intelligentsia.

I requested you to keep one ID only but you are always playing games and posting with different aliases. This is your answer below:

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[dawlatshahchitrali]

To Admin,
Message from Mazhar Shah to Admin as received,
You wrote to Nuseri,

Nuseiri in many of his posting is completely screwed up. Agreed But he does not hide himself behind different aliases. You do. This is why you got deleted first. it does not mean others will not follow.

I am sad that some of those who post here have such a vulgar language and low intellectual level discussion that they scare away the intelligentsia.

I requested you to keep one ID only but you are always playing games and posting with different aliases. This is your answer below:

IP Information
IP for this post
99.32.18.28 [ 6 Posts ] [ Look up IP ]
Users posting from this IP
mazharshah [ 242 Posts ] Search
junglikhan4 [ 186 Posts ] Search
mazhar [ 120 Posts ] Search
dawlatshahchitrali [ 6 Posts ] Search
sameernoorani5 [ 2 Posts ] Search
Other IP addresses this user has posted from
119.73.114.134 [ 3 Posts ] [ Look up IP ]
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119.73.114.139 [ 1 Post ] [ Look up IP ]

We are a group mostly engaged with Ismaili youths who are on verge of quitting our Tariqa. We are situated in 3 different countries channelized through one IP using e-mails. It is our way of interacting.
Past few years Imam's attention is diverted to youths because they have drifted away from our Tariqa not attending JKs and inclind to Sunnism. Imam is worried about them.These are rational and advanced youths reading lots of different material on internet. What we understand from Hidayat of Hazar Imam, that he wants Ismailis should enter main stream of Islam by not disturbing old Ismaili traditions. We understand problems of youth because as youth we had same kind of problems. We ask them and help them to understand meaning of Du'a, to understand articles of Preamble, read the chapter 'Islam Religion of My Ancestors' from Memoirs, read ginans prescribed by ITREB on Hidayat of Imam, study Quran and Ismaili literature.
We are trying to stop youth on second defense line as first defense line is broken by propaganda of opponents of Ismailism.

[Admin]

What we understand from Hidayat of Hazar Imam, that he wants Ismailis should enter main stream of Islam by not disturbing old Ismaili traditions

You understanding is completely wrong and you are imparting that wrong understanding to others. Imam is not interested in quantity, he has said so publicly.

We are The Islam. We are followers of the Imam-e-Zaman Mushkil Khusha, Mowlana Ali. You want us to abandon our Islam and join into some form of Islam that is not compatible with basic Ismaili Concepts and Islamic Concept.

As to channeling though one IP, let me laugh. Please stop this nonsense. I was one of the first Internet provider when the web did not even exist and probably you were still a kid.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

What we understand from Hidayat of Hazar Imam, that he wants Ismailis should enter main stream of Islam by not disturbing old Ismaili traditions

You understanding is completely wrong and you are imparting that wrong understanding to others. Imam is not interested in quantity, he has said so publicly.

We are The Islam. We are followers of the Imam-e-Zaman Mushkil Khusha, Mowlana Ali. You want us to abandon our Islam and join into some form of Islam that is not compatible with basic Ismaili Concepts and Islamic Concept.

As to channeling though one IP, let me laugh. Please stop this nonsense. I was one of the first Internet provider when the web did not even exist and probably you were still a kid.

According you Imam is not interested in quantity! then Imam being as a God
as you consider him, why created 7 billion human beings when he is not taking responsibilty as creator. Nau'zbillah is he insane. What you recite in the beginning of Du'a.
For basic Islamic and Ismaili concepts Preamble is clear which I and all Ismailis accept except few. I may be a kid, but this kid will be questioning on various topics still to come.

[Admin]

According you Imam is not interested in quantity!

It is not according to me. it is the Imam Himself who has said that he is not interested in quantity.

What you are preaching is completely against our Imam.

Shouting on the roof that you are Ismaili does not change the fact that many times you have made declarations which contradict our Imam's declarations.

At least have the courage and state your Tariqah instead of hiding it behind 6 different Aliases on this Forum. Thanks you.

[kmaherali]

What we understand from Hidayat of Hazar Imam, that he wants Ismailis should enter main stream of Islam by not disturbing old Ismaili traditions. We understand problems of youth because as youth we had same kind of problems. We ask them and help them to understand meaning of Du'a, to understand articles of Preamble, read the chapter 'Islam Religion of My Ancestors' from Memoirs, read ginans prescribed by ITREB on Hidayat of Imam, study Quran and Ismaili literature.
We are trying to stop youth on second defense line as first defense line is broken by propaganda of opponents of Ismailism.

MHI has told us to build bridges with other tariqahs of Islam but not to cross over:

"There has been a tendency in some parts of the Third World when the Imam has said yes you may build bridges, not only to build the bridges but to walk across them. This is not what the Imam has said. I have said, if you seek to build bridges, I have nothing against your building bridges. But I have also said, don't cross them, unless there are special reasons to do so. And today I would like in this final Didar to My spiritual children of Kenya, to give a Farman for the whole of the Jamat of Kenya."(Kisumu, March 17, 1981)

Also he has said within the context of building bridges our faith is ours and we should not compromise on that:

"And within that context of building bridges with other people, remember that your faith is yours. Remember to practise your faith, be regular in the practice of your faith and remember that thinking of Allah is not restricted in time. You may think of your faith when you go to the office, when you come back from the office, when you are in public meetings. Nobody asks you what you are thinking about. You are free to think about your faith any time that you are awake, any time during your lifetime."(Nairobi, Oct 24, 1986)

Except::
MHI Farman(Zanzibar,Aug 24,1997)

Live in unity.Respect each other,respect each other 's pluralism of views,of attitudes.But remember that you are Shia Muslims,and while you respect each other,abide by your commitment to Shia Islam.This does not mean that you do not respect other interpretations of Islam as they should respect yours.But this notion of pluralism,and respect for others,is fundamentally important in the decades ahead,not only for our Jamat,but for the Ummah as a whole.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

According you Imam is not interested in quantity!

It is not according to me. it is the Imam Himself who has said that he is not interested in quantity.

What you are preaching is completely against our Imam.

Shouting on the roof that you are Ismaili does not change the fact that many times you have made declarations which contradict our Imam's declarations.

At least have the courage and state your Tariqah instead of hiding it behind 6 different Aliases on this Forum. Thanks you.

Sir, look at the post and not the postmen. These are not 6 aliases but are 12.
You keep deleting my accounts and I shall be sneaking into your system through my contacts. Reinstate my account Mazharshah or Mazharkhan so that I shall not be forced to use some one else's account.
I need not to shout from top of Burj Al Khalifa that I am an Ismaili. Of course I am an Ismaili and obey what we say in 2nd part of Du'a;
Obey Allah
Obey Rasul
Obey ulil Amar ie Imam of the time.
Sir, do you want court affidavit for my being an Ismaili.
When Imam used the word 'quantity' there is a back ground of that, please don't take the farman out of context.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
One is not feeling shame less at all inspite of being kicked out.It is true that devil has no self respect.His words are in absolute threatened mode.
He is challenging Admin who know the history that son of Hasan bin Sabah was born Ismaili when eased out for good.
Admin has two choice either to look up to Ali with his IMAAN or look down to Iblees with misuse of site,which he own as he claims to bankrolled it.
Admin has to pass thru this Test/parakh.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

What we understand from Hidayat of Hazar Imam, that he wants Ismailis should enter main stream of Islam by not disturbing old Ismaili traditions. We understand problems of youth because as youth we had same kind of problems. We ask them and help them to understand meaning of Du'a, to understand articles of Preamble, read the chapter 'Islam Religion of My Ancestors' from Memoirs, read ginans prescribed by ITREB on Hidayat of Imam, study Quran and Ismaili literature.
We are trying to stop youth on second defense line as first defense line is broken by propaganda of opponents of Ismailism.

MHI has told us to build bridges with other tariqahs of Islam but not to cross over:

"There has been a tendency in some parts of the Third World when the Imam has said yes you may build bridges, not only to build the bridges but to walk across them. This is not what the Imam has said. I have said, if you seek to build bridges, I have nothing against your building bridges. But I have also said, don't cross them, unless there are special reasons to do so. And today I would like in this final Didar to My spiritual children of Kenya, to give a Farman for the whole of the Jamat of Kenya."(Kisumu, March 17, 1981)

Also he has said within the context of building bridges our faith is ours and we should not compromise on that:

"And within that context of building bridges with other people, remember that your faith is yours. Remember to practise your faith, be regular in the practice of your faith and remember that thinking of Allah is not restricted in time. You may think of your faith when you go to the office, when you come back from the office, when you are in public meetings. Nobody asks you what you are thinking about. You are free to think about your faith any time that you are awake, any time during your lifetime."(Nairobi, Oct 24, 1986)

Except::
MHI Farman(Zanzibar,Aug 24,1997)

Live in unity.Respect each other,respect each other 's pluralism of views,of attitudes.But remember that you are Shia Muslims,and while you respect each other,abide by your commitment to Shia Islam.This does not mean that you do not respect other interpretations of Islam as they should respect yours.But this notion of pluralism,and respect for others,is fundamentally important in the decades ahead,not only for our Jamat,but for the Ummah as a whole.

I respect and obey farmans. I try not to cross bridge or red line. In the first
farman which you quoted of Kisumu, 1981, particularily Imam has addressed to Kenya Jamaits, though he said not to cross the bridge, same time he has given option" unless there are special reasons to do so". Being as youth we have problems discussing our Tariqa to non Ismailis. In the thread 'general Hidayat for jamiats, you have mentioned that Imam is worried about YOUTHS. In schools, colleges and in offices do we say our Imam is God. we don't fast because we believe in batini roza or Agakhan has asked us not to fast.
In your quotation of 2nd farman of Nairobi 1986, Imam said," thinking of ALLAH is not restricted in time". When I use word Allah in my posts few participants are freaked, and say this is a generic name.What the hell is this.
Ismaili heritage is read in Pak by lots of non Ismailis and they call us mushriq and couple of religious parties use such material against Ismailis as propaganda tool. In such climate where youth have to look for guidance?
ITREB and IIS are failures to address religious problems of youth. By throwing them in ma'rifati cycle which they don't fully understand they will wander in space vacuum for ever.

[ismaili103]

What do you think, every ismaili believe that Hazir Imam is Allah, Out of 25 million ismailies, I can say that those who belive that Imam is Allah are around 0.1 % of 25 million, and what do you think they shout in public that Ali is Allah. Ofcourse not.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

What do you think, every ismaili believe that Hazir Imam is Allah, Out of 25 million ismailies, I can say that those who belive that Imam is Allah are around 0.1 % of 25 million, and what do you think they shout in public that Ali is Allah. Ofcourse not.

You refuted your previous claims, now you are down to 0.1% out of 25 millions.
in 20/25 years that 0.1% will disappear any how except few.
When some one claims then he should be brave enough to claim publicly like in streets of Karachi. It is easy on internet but need courage to go public.

[kmaherali]

I respect and obey farmans. I try not to cross bridge or red line. In the first
farman which you quoted of Kisumu, 1981, particularily Imam has addressed to Kenya Jamaits, though he said not to cross the bridge, same time he has given option" unless there are special reasons to do so"..

What would be the "special reasons" in your opinion?

Being as youth we have problems discussing our Tariqa to non Ismailis. In the thread 'general Hidayat for jamiats, you have mentioned that Imam is worried about YOUTHS. In schools, colleges and in offices do we say our Imam is God. we don't fast because we believe in batini roza or Agakhan has asked us not to fast..

I think one needs to apply common sense here. As per MHI's Farman nobody can prevent you from thinking about your faith, but there is no need to say Imam is God in public. It is a batini concept and needs to be spoken in a batini situation between murids. About fasting we do fast and that should be sufficient, no need to elaborate further to create further misunderstanding.

In your quotation of 2nd farman of Nairobi 1986, Imam said," thinking of ALLAH is not restricted in time". When I use word Allah in my posts few participants are freaked, and say this is a generic name.

I am not aware of anyone being freaked about mention of Allah.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

I respect and obey farmans. I try not to cross bridge or red line. In the first
farman which you quoted of Kisumu, 1981, particularily Imam has addressed to Kenya Jamaits, though he said not to cross the bridge, same time he has given option" unless there are special reasons to do so"..

What would be the "special reasons" in your opinion?

Being as youth we have problems discussing our Tariqa to non Ismailis. In the thread 'general Hidayat for jamiats, you have mentioned that Imam is worried about YOUTHS. In schools, colleges and in offices do we say our Imam is God. we don't fast because we believe in batini roza or Agakhan has asked us not to fast..

I think one needs to apply common sense here. As per MHI's Farman nobody can prevent you from thinking about your faith, but there is no need to say Imam is God in public. It is a batini concept and needs to be spoken in a batini situation between murids. About fasting we do fast and that should be sufficient, no need to elaborate further to create further misunderstanding.

In your quotation of 2nd farman of Nairobi 1986, Imam said," thinking of ALLAH is not restricted in time". When I use word Allah in my posts few participants are freaked, and say this is a generic name.

I am not aware of anyone being freaked about mention of Allah.

Imam did nor elaborated or explained the 'special reasons' but my understanding is that it can be in terms of protection, safety of families, or pluralism, or a medium way to sort out problems or to compromise on some issues.

No one can prevent one another from thinking, it is a common phenomena.
You are aware that in students mullaqats, student ask blunt questions.
Today's youth do not accept the words like Taqiya, Ta'weel, Batini, or diplomatic approach. They want answers in yes/no format. Their question, Is Imam God? They want answer yes or no. They do not want zahiri this and batini this.
Regarding word ALLAH, you should have read posts from Nuseri, he calls it generic name, also couple other participants who have different views.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

No doubt Pirs were right; but collectors, compilers and transliteraters made blunders in compiling ginans. I understand they were not research scholars
and linguists, mostly they knew not Arabi, Persians, Sindhi or Punjabi words used by pirs. They tried to insert Gujrati words as substitute for Arabic
or Persian words affecting meaning of ginans.
Pirs were lenient in beginning with converters while introducing Ismailism by inducing Vedanant literature with it, then gradually they diverted them towards Islamic tenets.
It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.
He was hafiz i Quran, his livelyhood came from writing (kitabat) of Quran but asked converters to read 4 vedas and not Quran or tranlation of Quran, if
they knew not Arabic.
He used to fast in the month of Ramadhan but confined converters to 2 Bheej on yearly basis.
In my opinion Pir Sadruddin showed the true Islamic path to converties but after death of pir Tajuddin for 200+ years there was no pir appointed in subcontinent. There was religious vacuum and many converties quit Ismaili religion. There was no proper arrangement of Islamic and Ismaili ta'limaat. Wakeels were not that active. There was not any authority to look after, Lohana, Momina and khojas. These communities under pressure back footed and started practicing their old Hindu religion with little Ismaili touch. It was Shah Hasan Ali Shah, Shah Ali Shah and Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah gradually freed them from the clutches of Hindism. Now since 1960, Shah Karim Al Hussaini has mostly directed them towards Islamic and Ismaili tenets and ta'limat. Still the work is in progress and more hidayat to come.

[Admin]

It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.

Please give your reference first. Who wrote what about ismailis going for hajj to Kashi and Mathura? if you do not have a reference saying specifically that Ismailis are told to go to Kashi for pilgrimage, your account will be closed. You have 24 hours. Your time stats now.

As usual your posts is half baked and half misleading. The basics of Ismailism is absent in your post.

For example the basic is that we Ismaili do what we are told to do by our Pir and Imam. We do not do what they do. So if Hazar Imam go to Brasil for scuba diving, we are not supposed to go for scuba diving in Brasil. If he decides to eat shrimp and tell us to eat Bhiriani, we should eat Bhiriani, not shrimp. Is this so difficult to understand. it has been months and months that we try to get this into your mind but it just does not work.

So as I said, first get some idea of what Ismailism is all about, then you can come back here and try to convert us to Sunism.

Meanwhile please do post on subjects that you know only.

[kmaherali]

[You are aware that in students mullaqats, student ask blunt questions.
Today's youth do not accept the words like Taqiya, Ta'weel, Batini, or diplomatic approach. They want answers in yes/no format. Their question, Is Imam God? They want answer yes or no. They do not want zahiri this and batini this.

I think our students should have the basic knowledge that ours is an esoteric tariqah of Islam and there are matters restricted for our tariqah only. This is common in all esoteric traditions.

MHI made the following Farmans:

"The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"(Bombay, Nov 9, 1967)

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, Nov 22, 1967)

And in his message to the Amman Conference he said:

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."(MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

Hence the notion of zahir abd batin is important for students to appreciate our faith. MHI uses the terms tawil and tafsir in the constitution. These are ideas common to all esoteric branches of Islam. So there cannot be any yes or no answers, but answers depend upon the context.

It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.

On the contrary the Pir mocks at those who visit Kashi as per verse of the Ginan: Bhoraa re bhoraa maanavi: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4080

Eji Kaashiye jai bhoraa tame Gangaa maanhe naao
amne tamne jenne sirajiyaa te kiyaan thaki paavo juo juo 3

O momins, visiting Kashi you bath in the Ganges, then how will you attain the one who has created us?

[ismaili103]

No doubt Pirs were right; but collectors, compilers and transliteraters made blunders in compiling ginans. I understand they were not research scholars
and linguists, mostly they knew not Arabi, Persians, Sindhi or Punjabi words used by pirs. They tried to insert Gujrati words as substitute for Arabic
or Persian words affecting meaning of ginans.
Pirs were lenient in beginning with converters while introducing Ismailism by inducing Vedanant literature with it, then gradually they diverted them towards Islamic tenets.
It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.
He was hafiz i Quran, his livelyhood came from writing (kitabat) of Quran but asked converters to read 4 vedas and not Quran or tranlation of Quran, if
they knew not Arabic.
He used to fast in the month of Ramadhan but confined converters to 2 Bheej on yearly basis.
In my opinion Pir Sadruddin showed the true Islamic path to converties but after death of pir Tajuddin for 200+ years there was no pir appointed in subcontinent. There was religious vacuum and many converties quit Ismaili religion. There was no proper arrangement of Islamic and Ismaili ta'limaat. Wakeels were not that active. There was not any authority to look after, Lohana, Momina and khojas. These communities under pressure back footed and started practicing their old Hindu religion with little Ismaili touch. It was Shah Hasan Ali Shah, Shah Ali Shah and Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah gradually freed them from the clutches of Hindism. Now since 1960, Shah Karim Al Hussaini has mostly directed them towards Islamic and Ismaili tenets and ta'limat. Still the work is in progress and more hidayat to come.

We should not do what Pir and Imam do, but we should do what Pir and Imam say to us.

Pir saddardin was against kashi and mathura , yes he perform hajj but we should not do what he do, their acts are beyond our intellect.

Pir never advice ismailis of that time to read vedas, according to Imam Sultan Mohd shah, "Pir saddardin Ginans are Maghaz( essence) of Quran" . So its simple to understand for an Ismaili that Pir Saddardin wrote Whole Quran in his Ginans in the language of those people who cannot understand Arabic.and those ismailis of the time read those Ginans which were way more than Altered Quran.

And after Pir Tajuddin ,Piratan did not stop, there was the Pir, which was a Book and its name was Pir Pandyat e jawan mardi, that book was Pir which means, that book contains same hidayat as hadith of Prophet Mohammad SAS.

[kmaherali]

He was hafiz i Quran, his livelyhood came from writing (kitabat) of Quran but asked converters to read 4 vedas and not Quran or tranlation of Quran, if they knew not Arabic.

There is a Ginanic verse which states:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23179

trann trann ved na dhee-aavo muneevar bhaai
kaayare khovo purav janam nee kamaai jee.....................1

Do not follow the teachings of the three (previous) scriptures (Vedas)
(which are redundant), o brother believers. By being timid, why
do you lose the good earnings of the past lives (which have
enabled you to attain this exalted path)?

ejee athar ved bole e prabhu saachaa
fal chhe paakaa(n) pann deese chhe kaachaa(n)jee............20

The fourth scripture (the Holy Qur'aan) or the Stable Scripture (ginans) is spoken by the True Guide.
The fruits are indeed ripe (sweet in essence) but are perceived as raw (bitter outwardly).

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
MHI is directing towards Sufi tariqa,(esoteric) .Yes there is been a gradual process to contain material of tradition.
For youth Mhi is forming solution to remember God all the time as low attendance in Jk may be foreseen.
He is hinting at future n past of the dead era.
I said word ALLAH is a brand name,to understand its generic name,one has use the formula of 1+0= 1.
He is using the words like spiritual father,glowing.
And never of roza,hajj,offering,dadi,topi,namaz,3/4 pyjama.

One future word could be or already said can be 'SPIRITUAL INTELLECT'.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

It is strange pir Sadruddin performed Hajj and ask converties to go to Kashi and Mathura for Hajj.

Please give your reference first. Who wrote what about ismailis going for hajj to Kashi and Mathura? if you do not have a reference saying specifically that Ismailis are told to go to Kashi for pilgrimage, your account will be closed. You have 24 hours. Your time stats now.

As usual your posts is half baked and half misleading. The basics of Ismailism is absent in your post.

For example the basic is that we Ismaili do what we are told to do by our Pir and Imam. We do not do what they do. So if Hazar Imam go to Brasil for scuba diving, we are not supposed to go for scuba diving in Brasil. If he decides to eat shrimp and tell us to eat Bhiriani, we should eat Bhiriani, not shrimp. Is this so difficult to understand. it has been months and months that we try to get this into your mind but it just does not work.

So as I said, first get some idea of what Ismailism is all about, then you can come back here and try to convert us to Sunism.

Meanwhile please do post on subjects that you know only.

Excuse me, I do not take threats. I know you have upper hand because you are owner of this site. On pressure from other participants you keep deleting my posts and account. Don't you see I have kept you guys busy almost whole year. Your rating increased.
I am neither sunni nor shia, Iam an Ismaili follower of Hazar Imam. Rest I don't care for Lalu bhai panju.
Did I said Ismailis are monkeys?
Did I said ginans are CRAP AND JUNK.
Did I said Pirs are history of past.
Did I refuted Dasond? Do you agree what that brainless person is writing?
Is Nuseri related to you? I never started taunting, until they started absurd and insulting words which you admitted.
Above post is my opinion and not FATWA. You and others have tendency of picking one or two sentences out of context and start beating drums at same time. You have given me low grade examples of scuba diving and bhiryani.
Imam is here for religious and spiritual guidance. If Imam is not saying du'a,
Is he not saying NAMAZ. Mowla Ali performed Hajj, so did bibi Fatima, Hazrat Hasan and Imam Hussain with their followers, were those followers wrong because they followed Imam of the time.
I am giving examples and quotations from Ismaili literature, if you people don't like that lsmaili literature ask ITREB TO DELETE AND DESTROY THAT VALUABLE ASSET.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

Ya Ali Madad.
One is not feeling shame less at all inspite of being kicked out.It is true that devil has no self respect.His words are in absolute threatened mode.
He is challenging Admin who know the history that son of Hasan bin Sabah was born Ismaili when eased out for good.
Admin has two choice either to look up to Ali with his IMAAN or look down to Iblees with misuse of site,which he own as he claims to bankrolled it.
Admin has to pass thru this Test/parakh.

You are protecting this brainless person. You deleted my 2 posts answering him. You allow him and keep his posts alive means you agree what he is writing and you are also a party.That ginans are junk and crap, ridicule Dasond, Pirs and Prophets are history of past.
He gave wrong information about son of Hasan bin Sabah. He drank sharab and his father gave him SHARIYATI PUNISHMENT OF 80 LASHES, and because of that punishment he passed away. Hasan bin Sabah was strict in discipline. Now a days we need a person like Hasan bin Sabah to fix khoja Ismailis.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

Ya Ali madad.
MHI is directing towards Sufi tariqa,(esoteric) .Yes there is been a gradual process to contain material of tradition.
For youth Mhi is forming solution to remember God all the time as low attendance in Jk may be foreseen.
He is hinting at future n past of the dead era.
I said word ALLAH is a brand name,to understand its generic name,one has use the formula of 1+0= 1.
He is using the words like spiritual father,glowing.
And never of roza,hajj,offering,dadi,topi,namaz,3/4 pyjama.

One future word could be or already said can be 'SPIRITUAL INTELLECT'.

What is generic name of Allah according to you, Ali or Imam???
Imam said remember Allah through out the day. It is Hidayat obey it or not!

[dawlatshahchitrali]

He was hafiz i Quran, his livelyhood came from writing (kitabat) of Quran but asked converters to read 4 vedas and not Quran or tranlation of Quran, if they knew not Arabic.

There is a Ginanic verse which states:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23179

trann trann ved na dhee-aavo muneevar bhaai
kaayare khovo purav janam nee kamaai jee.....................1

Do not follow the teachings of the three (previous) scriptures (Vedas)
(which are redundant), o brother believers. By being timid, why
do you lose the good earnings of the past lives (which have
enabled you to attain this exalted path)?

ejee athar ved bole e prabhu saachaa
fal chhe paakaa(n) pann deese chhe kaachaa(n)jee............20

The fourth scripture (the Holy Qur'aan) or the Stable Scripture (ginans) is spoken by the True Guide.
The fruits are indeed ripe (sweet in essence) but are perceived as raw (bitter outwardly).

Sir, for the 4th scripture ie Ved, why he directly not used the word Quran?