Pir or Mustawda Imam

[tret]

Past 100+ years institution of Imamat and institution of Piratan is merged.
Question arises in Past 100 years Imam could not find any pious, highly ethical ma'rifati soul to be appointed as pir.

the abolishing of the huddud-e-din [ranks], i.e. Hujjatship, is one of the signs of the great cycle of Resurrection.

[tret]

The Pirs are always appointed from Ahl al-Bayt.

I don't this is true! Historically, there have been Hujjats [Ba'ab] who were not from the Ahl-e-Bayt of the Imam.

[tret]

If a respected woman can be appointed as pir, why not a respected woman from Imam's family become Imam?

If I recall correctly, Nasir Khusraw explains this in one of his works [Wajh-e-Din?] properly. The reason I believe has to do with inheritance of physical and biological from Mother vs Father side. And besides, Imam's response is very clear on this.

[Admin]

Historically, there have been Hujjats [Ba'ab] who were not from the Ahl-e-Bayt of the Imam.

Each of the Pirs had 12 hujjats for each of the 12 regions. These are not to be confused with the Pir (Hujjat ul Imam)

Here is the list of recognized (Satadhari) PIRS from the Asal Dua approved by our Imams:

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... a9e21e5bda

Can you please give some names of Pir that were not from Ahl-e-Bayt?

[tret]

Historically, there have been Hujjats [Ba'ab] who were not from the Ahl-e-Bayt of the Imam.

Each of the Pirs had 12 hujjats for each of the 12 regions. These are not to be confused with the Pir (Hujjat ul Imam)

Here is the list of recognized (Satadhari) PIRS from the Asal Dua approved by our Imams:

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... a9e21e5bda

Can you please give some names of Pir that were not from Ahl-e-Bayt?

Admin - I had mentioned Ba'ab, which is literally means "Gate". This Ba'ab [one of the Hujjat's] is also known as Supreme Hujjat, which -- in terms of ranks -- is higher then the 12 Hujjats of Jazayer. BTW, these 12 Hujjat's of jazayer is the Hujjats of the Imam and not Pir [Supreme Hujjat/Ba'ab].

[mazharshah]

Ya Ali madad.
Lot of religious material and written material of inspiration of faith takes a legal identity in a period where most countries have their laws n constitution over ruling material outside their ambit.
So wisdom prevails over our organisation to as not to get into complications in many countries with legal headaches.
That is wisdom n being courageous can be harmful in many circumstances.

What is ALI's prerogative to choose pir.
No human can advice him on that.

But Ginans and Farmans were printed before 80's, what is and where is the problem. Leadership should take jamaits in confidence if there is any legality involved.

[mazharshah]

If a respected woman can be appointed as pir, why not a respected woman from Imam's family become Imam?

A women from Imams family can become Pir ,but not Imam. Imam is Shah from Shah and Pir, and Shah means King not Queen. Pirs also wrote the term Gur Nar, in which Gur ( Teacher ) is Pir and Nar is Imam, and Nar is a sanskrit word which means Male.

You are right Nar means male, what about Gur, it refers to male also.

[mazharshah]

In our Tariqa is there any room for honorary pir?

There is no room for a honorary Pir, although one can be appointed Pir by the Imam posthumously (after death) like Pir Subzali.

I have read the history of pirs, pro and post Almout era. My finding is that pro Almout era non of our pirs in any writings claimed their status equal to Prophet!!

What writings are you referring to about per-Alamut Pirs. Provide examples.

I heard ginans like farmans are not reprinted or published by ITREB.
Where is the problem.

Ginans are printed by the ITREB of Canada.


I think posthumously pir title given to Sabz Ali Saheb is honorary otherwise it should be included in list of pirs.

Literature of Qadi Noaman.

In what year last book of ginans was printed by ITREB Canada.

[mazharshah]

Ya Ali Madad.
A good scholarly reply from Kmaherali.
If one is a scholar n has rational sense.In aspects n domain or religion it is clever,cunning n truant use it fool,suppress, excite,intidimate the ignorants n common sense, while greatcsagas,imam,pits with spiritual intellect inspired Faith to common sense,rational sense,intellectuals & genius.
One has identify to which category it wants to tom tom n be in those websites with overdose of religious melodrama(nautanki),
I as a Momin, if MHI orders a new dua or tasbih,I would IMMD discard the present dua n tasbih book for good n erase past contents from my mind if need be.this is ibnul waqt.
Enough of past data is making this forum boring that why few scholars have left.

[mazharshah]

Nuseri Quote;
I as a Momin, if MHI orders a new dua or tasbih,I would IMMD discard the present dua n tasbih book for good n erase past contents from my mind if need be.this is ibnul waqt.
Enough of past data is making this forum boring that why few scholars have left.[/quote][/quote]

Dear Momin,
Then why not are you adopting the current DU'A with entirety given by Imam ul waqt including Aliullah!!

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
Nice to see postings of tret.

[Admin]

But Ginans and Farmans were printed before 80's

In fact there were reprint of ginans books and even a newly prepared book of ginans by the ITREB in Vancouver in the late 1990s, perhaps in the early years 2000

[Admin]

Admin - I had mentioned Ba'ab, which is literally means "Gate". This Ba'ab [one of the Hujjat's] is also known as Supreme Hujjat, which -- in terms of ranks -- is higher then the 12 Hujjats of Jazayer. BTW, these 12 Hujjat's of jazayer is the Hujjats of the Imam and not Pir [Supreme Hujjat/Ba'ab].

So in your vocabulary, can you name any Supreme Hujjat that was not from Ahl-e-Bayt. Do you call "Supreme Hujat" the names that are in the list of Pirs in the Asal Dua? I just want to make sure because everyone has his own vocabulary and it is important to relate the concepts and not the vocabulary.

[ismaili103]

You are right Nar means male, what about Gur, it refers to male also.

Gur is derived from Guru which means teacher. A teacher can be male and female but Nar cannot be a female

[kmaherali]

In fact there were reprint of ginans books and even a newly prepared book of ginans by the ITREB in Vancouver in the late 1990s, perhaps in the early years 2000

The IREB of Canada has produced various Ginan books since 2000. They include 2 volumes of individual Ginans, and the Granths - Anant Akhado, Kalame Mowla, Buj Nirinjan, Bhram Prakash.

[kmaherali]

In fact there were reprint of ginans books and even a newly prepared book of ginans by the ITREB in Vancouver in the late 1990s, perhaps in the early years 2000

The IREB of Canada has produced various Ginan books since 2000. They include 2 volumes of individual Ginans, and the Granths - Anant Akhado, Kalame Mowla, Buj Nirinjan, Bhram Prakash.

[kmaherali]

the abolishing of the huddud-e-din [ranks], i.e. Hujjatship, is one of the signs of the great cycle of Resurrection.

The abolishing does not hold for Piratan. This position was validated according to MSMS will:
"For these reasons, I appoint my grandson Karim, the son of my own son, Aly Salomone Khan to succeed to the title of Aga Khan and to the Imam and Pir of all Shia Ismailian followers."
http://ismaili.net/timeline/1957/19570711will.html

[kmaherali]

Literature of Qadi Noaman.

Qadi Noman was not the Pir and I did not know that he wrote about the Pirs. Can you provide the reference where he has indicated previous Pirs.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I feel Tret is raising a fair point as most of the historians have Khoja angle to status n validation of Pirs.
The Persian doctrines due highest of the high as hujjat dai.Pit n hujjat is an office of Imam n grant of that title to whom he wishes whether from Ahle bayt or outside.
As millions fever syedna nadir khusrow as pir n dai in their belief n respect.
Well I feel status of Salman Faras, eboo pirbhhai n nadir khusraw can be seen in same holistic view.
Both Salman Fara's n NK were Persian origin n became Sathpanthi/Ismaili from other religion.MHI has quoted him in his speeches.like Salman faras he was not from ahle bayt but very much part of it.Same way ebbo pirbhoy was given title of Diwan,In Indian royalty a Diwan is not from royal family but a part n parcel of of the royalty.
Pits were blessed with spiritual intellect so was NK.
So a title of dai hujjat/ syedna look no less holy to me to an entity of status than the title of PIR.
simple comparison that around 7++ pirs have around 5 lacs inspired Ismailis today from a region while NK legacy has over 10 million inspired Ismailis today.
To just disregard someone point and have blinkered view on the word status n office of pir.
Is un scholarly. Study the word rasikunfilm in Qur'an, search who could they be?.
A status not higher than Ali+lay= Allah and the word IMAM E MUBEEN.

[Admin]

I understand that "pir" Nk looks more qualified to you in comparison to the Satadhari "Pirs" (which were all from Arabic, Persian, Turkish origins) which were accepted by our Imams.

I know many people to whom "Mowlana" Rumi looks more qualified than "Mowlana" Shah Karim.

If number is what you are looking for, there are more believer in Jesus in the world than there are believers of NK.

How does your logic fit in the intellectual tradition of the Ismailis (I mean non-Khojas)? I think it does not.

[mazharshah]

In fact there were reprint of ginans books and even a newly prepared book of ginans by the ITREB in Vancouver in the late 1990s, perhaps in the early years 2000

The IREB of Canada has produced various Ginan books since 2000. They include 2 volumes of individual Ginans, and the Granths - Anant Akhado, Kalame Mowla, Buj Nirinjan, Bhram Prakash.

ITREB Karachi is not giving green signal to reprint Bhuj Nirinjan since 80's but ITREB Canada reproduced Bhuj Nirinjan, where is coordination between ITREB's!

[mazharshah]

the abolishing of the huddud-e-din [ranks], i.e. Hujjatship, is one of the signs of the great cycle of Resurrection.

The abolishing does not hold for Piratan. This position was validated according to MSMS will:
"For these reasons, I appoint my grandson Karim, the son of my own son, Aly Salomone Khan to succeed to the title of Aga Khan and to the Imam and Pir of all Shia Ismailian followers."
http://ismaili.net/timeline/1957/19570711will.html

I respect words of Imam but for discussion, NOOR HAS NO GENDER, means neither male nor female so if a woman becomes Imam still authority will be same.

[mazharshah]

You are right Nar means male, what about Gur, it refers to male also.

Gur is derived from Guru which means teacher. A teacher can be male and female but Nar cannot be a female

Still guru sounds male, isn't it. Literally if Nar can not be a female same applies to Gur also.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.

Noor is a subtle light of divine intellect, So God/Ali/imam is is bearer of n remitter of noor.

So it only Allah/Imam has to be male as said about itself.

Receiver of noor can be of any gender.(human)
In stories n mythology is the Sun personified as a male or a female?

Everyone very well know that sunrays are gender neutral.

[ismaili103]

I respect words of Imam but for discussion, NOOR HAS NO GENDER, means neither male nor female so if a woman becomes Imam still authority will be same.

Yes Noor has no gender but it has Paternal and Maternal attributes like jalal, Rab etc for paternal and rahim, khaliq for maternal. Maternal attribute manifest as Prophets and Pirs and Paternal attribute manifest as Imam, so Imam cannot be a female because of his paternal attributes. BTW Imam also clears that a female cannot be Imam.

[kmaherali]

ITREB Karachi is not giving green signal to reprint Bhuj Nirinjan since 80's but ITREB Canada reproduced Bhuj Nirinjan, where is coordination between ITREB's!

Different ITREBS operate under different contexts and circumstances. Whereas it may be appropriate for one to publish the Ginans, it may not be appropriate for others. ITREB of Canada has published Anant Akhado with "Hari Anant" whereas other ITREBS have published with "Ali Anant".

Still guru sounds male, isn't it. Literally if Nar can not be a female same applies to Gur also.!

Guru means 'remover of darkness'. It does not have to be male only.

I respect words of Imam but for discussion, NOOR HAS NO GENDER, means neither male nor female so if a woman becomes Imam still authority will be same..

I think one has to be the Imam to know exactly why or become elevated spiritually to understand why. In the meantime we are required to accept the word of the Imam. Since creation Imams have always been males. There must be a good reason for that.

[kmaherali]

Yes Noor has no gender but it has Paternal and Maternal attributes like jalal, Rab etc for paternal and rahim, khaliq for maternal. Maternal attribute manifest as Prophets and Pirs and Paternal attribute manifest as Imam, so Imam cannot be a female because of his paternal attributes. BTW Imam also clears that a female cannot be Imam.

In the Ginan Nar Naklanki keri vaat: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4038 , it is stated:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning,
is indeed in the form of Ali.

Ali represents the Nirinjan - Mazhar of the Essence (without attributes) and Mohammad represents the Noor of Satgur - Mazhar of God with attributes (both jamali and jalali). The Pir has both jamali and jalali attributes, whereas the Imam is without attributes.

[ismaili103]

Ali represents the Nirinjan - Mazhar of the Essence (without attributes) and Mohammad represents the Noor of Satgur - Mazhar of God with attributes (both jamali and jalali). The Pir has both jamali and jalali attributes, whereas the Imam is without attributes.

Karim bhai, it will be nice if you further elaborate Mazhar of essence and Mazhar of God, and which one is higher and why ?

[mazharshah]

Yes Noor has no gender but it has Paternal and Maternal attributes like jalal, Rab etc for paternal and rahim, khaliq for maternal. Maternal attribute manifest as Prophets and Pirs and Paternal attribute manifest as Imam, so Imam cannot be a female because of his paternal attributes. BTW Imam also clears that a female cannot be Imam.

In the Ginan Nar Naklanki keri vaat: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4038 , it is stated:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning,
is indeed in the form of Ali.

Ali represents the Nirinjan - Mazhar of the Essence (without attributes) and Mohammad represents the Noor of Satgur - Mazhar of God with attributes (both jamali and jalali). The Pir has both jamali and jalali attributes, whereas the Imam is without attributes.

Either you are confused or you are confusing readers. Is it a new philosophy?
'mazhar of essence without attributes'. Quran mentions attributes of Allah. Noor of Ali and Muhammad is same, therefore what ever attributes are of Ali should be same of Muhammad. Mazhar of essence, essence of who? Obviously Allah. You wrote, Ali represents Nirijan, when you say represent of Nirijan means you are talking about two different entities.

[mazharshah]

I respect words of Imam but for discussion, NOOR HAS NO GENDER, means neither male nor female so if a woman becomes Imam still authority will be same.

Yes Noor has no gender but it has Paternal and Maternal attributes like jalal, Rab etc for paternal and rahim, khaliq for maternal. Maternal attribute manifest as Prophets and Pirs and Paternal attribute manifest as Imam, so Imam cannot be a female because of his paternal attributes. BTW Imam also clears that a female cannot be Imam.

Karim when you say Noor has no gender then you can not apply paternal or maternal attributes to Noor, because paternal represents Male and maternal represents female.