first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:50 am

mazharshah wrote:Are Ismailis Muslim or not?
While making farman, does Imam says to non Ismailis, please put ear plugs in your ears now I am making a farman to my followers! The philosophy of Bismillah is very important to Ismailis. Mowla Ali said," Ana nukta tullati tahtal baai Bismillah."

Not only are Ismailis Muslims but are also human beings. I have not heard a Farman made in the presence of non-Ismailis. Irshard Mubarak are made when there are non-Ismailis - Muslims and people of other faiths.

Consider for example Irshad Mubarak posted in this forum at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=211

He begins by:

Bismillah-Al-Rahman-Al-Rahim My Beloved Spiritual Children, my brothers and sisters in Islam and other faiths Assalam-0-Alaikum

Then he gives guidance/advice applicable to all. In the end he says:

To all my spiritual children who are present here today, and to your families, wherever they may be, I give my most affectionate loving blessings for barakat, and the resolution of whatever difficulties you may be facing. My brothers and sisters in Islam and other faiths should be assured that my deep and heartfelt prayers are with you, for your peace, your unity, and for your happiness. Khanavadan, Khanavadan, Khanavadan.

So he gives blessings to his murids and offers prayers to others. So he makes a distinction.

To his murids he is the Mazhar i dhat illahi, that means if he says BISMILLAH, it would be like saying IN THE NAME OF MYSELF, which would not make sense and hence he does not say it when beginning a Farman. However to others, he is an ordinary human being who prays to Allah and hence he says BISMILLAH. I hope you understand the difference.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:59 am

mazharshah wrote:In Karachi I know quite few non Ismaili persons who claimed that they were present at the didar gatherings in garden and Krimabad area, and this I heard from other sources too, but Imam did not asked those non Ismailis to leave the pandaal.

Whether the Imam asks them to leave or not is irrelevant. The point is that during deedars for his murids only, non-Ismailis are not supposed to be there. If a person sneaks in then it is his problem. That is the reason we have entry cards for different deedars. In Mandlis, non-members are not supposed to be there.

In countries such as Syria and Central Asia, the Imam allows non-Ismailis and hence delivers Irshads beginning with Bismillah.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:00 am

mazharshah wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
Past many years, non Ismaili spouses and their children of an Ismaili are allowed at time of didar to participate and listen to farman mostly in western countries. Why Imam do not start delivering farman with Bismillah------------
while non Ismailis are listening to farman. Philosophy of Bismillah is very important in Shia Islam and with Ismailis particularly.
The non-Ismaili spouses are not in the same hall as Ismailis. They are in s separate hall and cannot hear what happens in the main hall.

At times when the Imam gives deedar to his murids only and if there are non-Ismailis present, he indicates that the individual leave the hall.

Reply,

In Karachi I know quite few non Ismaili persons who claimed that they were present at the didar gatherings in garden and Karimabad area, and this I heard from other sources too, but Imam did not asked those non Ismailis to leave the pandaal.

Please donot provide wrong info.....in Pakistan there is no chance for an non ismaili to attend didar, because in Pakistan ismailies live in societies and colonies, and when Imam came for didar, every ismaili got his family card to attend didar in there Jks.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:25 pm

Kmaherali

:

To his murids he is the Mazhar i dhat illahi, that means if he says BISMILLAH, it would be like saying IN THE NAME OF MYSELF, which would not make sense and hence he does not say it when beginning a Farman. However to others, he is an ordinary human being who prays to Allah and hence he says BISMILLAH. I hope you understand the difference.

Reply,

I wander, when Mowla Ali Murtaza delivered khutba (sermon or farman) in front of his followers, he always started with Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Now according to you if he says Bismillah, it would be like saying IN THE NAME OF MYSELF, which would not make sense. So Mowla Ali is right in saying Bismillah and not other Imams! How will you explain?[/quote]

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:52 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
kmaherali wrote:The non-Ismaili spouses are not in the same hall as Ismailis. They are in s separate hall and cannot hear what happens in the main hall.

At times when the Imam gives deedar to his murids only and if there are non-Ismailis present, he indicates that the individual leave the hall.

Reply,

In Karachi I know quite few non Ismaili persons who claimed that they were present at the didar gatherings in garden and Karimabad area, and this I heard from other sources too, but Imam did not asked those non Ismailis to leave the pandaal.
Please donot provide wrong info.....in Pakistan there is no chance for an non ismaili to attend didar, because in Pakistan ismailies live in societies and colonies, and when Imam came for didar, every ismaili got his family card to attend didar in there Jks.

Reply,

I am not providing any wrong information. I know there is card entry system for majalis at time of didar. Here I am talking about general didar. In 80's and 90's, I my self pointed out few non ismailis, whom I knew And they were ejected. What I wrote was that I heard from non Ismailis attending didar and they told me all happenings. When Afghanis were guest at Karachi, many non Ismaili afghans attended didars, even they attended regular JK. Even some memon bhais told me they attended didar. This also happened that some Ismailis brought in non Ismaili friends in pandaal. Couple of persons who used to work with me, they claimed they attended thawer raat and chand raat and they told me all the happenings in JK from niaz to shukreet to announcements. So people had been sneaking in JK's and at time of didars.
When Ismailis received serious threats in Pak then onward card system was introduced in all Ismaili communities in all countries.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:59 pm

What is difference between FARMAN, IRSHAD MUBARAK, HIDAYAT, KHUTBA (SERMON),TALIKA MUBARAK?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:10 pm

mazharshah wrote:
Reply,

I wander, when Mowla Ali Murtaza delivered khutba (sermon or farman) in front of his followers, he always started with Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Now according to you if he says Bismillah, it would be like saying IN THE NAME OF MYSELF, which would not make sense. So Mowla Ali is right in saying Bismillah and not other Imams! How will you explain?

Khutba is a public exhortation made on Friday. All kinds of people of all denominations are present. It is not restricted to one particular tariqah.

Also you have to keep in mind that the Shia of Ali comprised of people with varying understanding. Not all accepted Hazarat Ali for religious reasons, some accepted him for political reasons.

For the majority, Hazarat Ali was only an interpretor of faith and not Mazhar i dhat illahi. Hence the majority ended up with wrong Imamat. Only a minority are Ismailis for whom he is the Mazhar i that illahi.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:29 am

mazharshah wrote:What is difference between FARMAN, IRSHAD MUBARAK, HIDAYAT, KHUTBA (SERMON),TALIKA MUBARAK?

Farman - command, order to be obeyed and followed
Irshad Mubarak - guidance and direction
Hidayat - guidelines given to leaders and institutions
Khutba - sermon delivered on Friday
Talika Mubarak - written communication from the Imam to the Jamat, may contain greetings, messages and sometimes Farman.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:37 am

kmaherali wrote: Talika Mubarak - written communication from the Imam to the Jamat, may contain greetings, messages and sometimes Farman.

Also to individuals...

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:54 am

Khutba is a public exhortation made on Friday. All kinds of people of all denominations are present. It is not restricted to one particular tariqah.

Also you have to keep in mind that the Shia of Ali comprised of people with varying understanding. Not all accepted Hazarat Ali for religious reasons, some accepted him for political reasons.

For the majority, Hazarat Ali was only an interpretor of faith and not Mazhar i dhat illahi. Hence the majority ended up with wrong Imamat. Only a minority are Ismailis for whom he is the Mazhar i that illahi.

Br Mazharshah; AS
Khutba is delivered before Jumma prayers in Sunni and Shia Masajids. Mustali Idmailis have Jumms prayers but do not have Khutba since they believe only Imam delivers Kuhtba and since Imam is Hiding there is no Khutba. Even though Sunni and Shia mosques are open to all Muslims one goes to mosques of hid own tariqa.
Hazrat Ali and Prophet always Said Bismillah before every Halal act. i do not know any Hadith when they claimed to be "Mazhar i dhat illahi".
Please search for "Bismillah- clearing confusion " and read to have better undrstanding why Muslim say Bismaillah.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:30 pm

zznoor wrote: I do not know any Hadith when they claimed to be "Mazhar i dhat illahi".
Please search for "Bismillah- clearing confusion " and read to have better undrstanding why Muslim say Bismaillah.

This concept is not known outside the Ismaili Tariqah, it is s batini concept restricted to Ismsilis only. We do not need any hadith for that. The present Imam has indicated tothe Jamat.

It is OK if you do not understand this. It is only meant for Ismailis. For an Ismaili, the Imsm is not an ordinary human being. I have never heard him use Bismillah within the Jamat. Of course he says Bismillah outside the Jamat.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:07 pm

I have never heard him use Bismillah within the Jamat. Of course he says Bismillah outside the Jamat.

Kbhai,

Really interesting for me! because I never gave attention in any didars that whether Imam starts his farmans saying Bismillah first or not? I am lucky enough to have many didars and darbars of MHI but I never gave attention on the word Bismillah! now I know and believe that he doesn't use Bismillah as you says so. . thanks for the information. In my thinking he is the Allah himself and Allah can not say that he is starting in the name of Allah (him shelf)!!

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:13 pm

So why does he say Bismillah in mixed audience.[/quote]

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:19 pm

That answer is simple T

[DELETED]

----------------------

Note from Admin:

I urge you not to fall into the trap of whoever tries to provoque rifts between various Tariqas of islam and who are trying to diminish our Religion. Just reply by a silence is worth more then anything else.

Admin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:52 pm

zznoor wrote:So why does he say Bismillah in mixed audience.

[/quote]The Imam always appears according to the capacity of the audience. The notion of Mazhar I dhat illahi is an esoteric concept and one needs some background in mysticism to appreciate it. Most people don:t have it and hence he appears human to others.Hence in public, he will pray, fast, do good deeds and charity and even make mistakes like any other human being. Of course he will say Bismillah.

Ismailis however are expected to have a better and deeper understanding of Imamat being constantly reinforced by the notion through Dua, Ginans and Qasidas and attending majalis and lectures/waez. So it will not be strange to them if he expresses himself as Divine.

Also the notion of Mazhar I chat illahi is based upon the Qur'an. The Imam is the Manifest Light and the Proof according to Ismaili interpretation.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:16 am

To zznoor:Ya Ali madad.
You also have few questions to be answered.Please try earnestly.
MHI has multifacet persona.The equation,respect, love, protocol.etiquette
to address and greetings can differ.
He is a sermon giver out of holy book all the time.
The book is encompassed in Ali+Lah=Allah. HE is not bounded ,trapped or confined in it.
a teacher in a a mid level students school,asks for a glass of water in cafeteria area and is also like a sweetie pie with fiancee also working in the same school.this is observation of students of her class.
while in class room is firm n marginally strict and calls n teaches n impose upon student that is in rality Hydrogendioxide H20,does not budge from it.
She is ware that student have pass exams with this knowledge.

To an ignorant person who misunderstand it feel that is is two timer
( haathi ke daath). Either she lying/behaving to fiancee or the students.
she is doing her job professionally.
one must not narrow down to any outlook/opinion that what is siad at place A must be also said at all the places.this amount to lunacy.

In confines of my home I call my daughter 'Kaise hai beta".i have unique relation n emotional attachment with her.moment I am out of the house
i am same old greetings of different types with others to whom I may
business,work,social relations with indifferent love n emotion levels.
so MHI say to his spiritual children in his house and to others outside the house should not be a concern at all to any.
So what a school teacher call n speak in cafeteria,fiancee or student should no matter to an educated person.
It can matter to an ignorant or person who misunderstand.
I still assume n respect you as a well educated person.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:49 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
Reply,

I wander, when Mowla Ali Murtaza delivered khutba (sermon or farman) in front of his followers, he always started with Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Now according to you if he says Bismillah, it would be like saying IN THE NAME OF MYSELF, which would not make sense. So Mowla Ali is right in saying Bismillah and not other Imams! How will you explain?
Khutba is a public exhortation made on Friday. All kinds of people of all denominations are present. It is not restricted to one particular tariqah.

Also you have to keep in mind that the Shia of Ali comprised of people with varying understanding. Not all accepted Hazarat Ali for religious reasons, some accepted him for political reasons.

For the majority, Hazarat Ali was only an interpretor of faith and not Mazhar i dhat illahi. Hence the majority ended up with wrong Imamat. Only a minority are Ismailis for whom he is the Mazhar i that illahi.

To, Kmaherali,

Khutba means speach, its plural is khitabat means speaches, but particularly in Islam it is related to Juma Namaz and Eid Namaz. All the khitabat of Mowla Ali were not delivered in masjids, but mostly were delivered out side masjid.
At that time mostly audience was shian e Ali means party of Ali or group of Ali, there weren't Isna 'ashiries, Ismailis, Mustailwis, sunnis or so on. Look at nahjul balagah, mostly all khitabat started bith Bismillah. I don't think Mowla Ali was scared of any one to hide his status, still he started with Bismillah. In our Du'a we start with bismillah--------, and not with bismi Ali or bismi Karim!

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:57 pm

agakhani wrote:
I have never heard him use Bismillah within the Jamat. Of course he says Bismillah outside the Jamat.
Kbhai,

Really interesting for me! because I never gave attention in any didars that whether Imam starts his farmans saying Bismillah first or not? I am lucky enough to have many didars and darbars of MHI but I never gave attention on the word Bismillah! now I know and believe that he doesn't use Bismillah as you says so. . thanks for the information. In my thinking he is the Allah himself and Allah can not say that he is starting in the name of Allah (him shelf)!!

To AK,

Present Imam Shah Karim never claimed to be God. In British court, the statement given by him was," neither myself nor my grand father claimed
divinity."

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:09 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:What is difference between FARMAN, IRSHAD MUBARAK, HIDAYAT, KHUTBA (SERMON),TALIKA MUBARAK?
Farman - command, order to be obeyed and followed
Irshad Mubarak - guidance and direction
Hidayat - guidelines given to leaders and institutions
Khutba - sermon delivered on Friday
Talika Mubarak - written communication from the Imam to the Jamat, may contain greetings, messages and sometimes Farman.

You are right Farman is command or hukum must be obeyed by followers, but Irshad and Hidayat also fall in same category to mureeds or institutions and must be obeyed. Khutba means speech but religiously it is delivered before Juma namaz. For Talika Mubarak you did not clearly mentioned whether it is from Imam or Pir.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:44 pm

For Talika Mubarak you did not clearly mentioned whether it is from Imam or Pir.

Ok, I clear it for you!

Talika Mubarak comes from both i.e. from Imam and Pir! If you have ever give attention on any Talika Mubarak then you should have heard this words ' PATERNAL AND MATERNAL LOVING BLESSING!! Paternal blessing is from Imam as a father and maternal blessing is from pir as a mother.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:40 pm

To AK,

Present Imam Shah Karim never claimed to be God. In British court, the statement given by him was," neither myself nor my grand father claimed
divinity."

Court is public place not a didar hall.
You should know by now that ipublic place and didar halls are two different places for two different audience one called general audience and the other one call as a Jamats In public places like court, speeches Imam keeps many things hidden intentionally which only can be unveiled in didar hall only.

I should suggest you to read
1, Agakhan Case
2, Haji Bibi Case
in these two cases two different Imams has accepted them shelf as "God"!!in Mumbai High court during cross questioning by honorable judge and plaintiff attorneys.

Post by **Admin** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:57 pm

A remark for the work "Talika".

In my opinion a Talika is a Farman, whatever it contains. A Talika is a written Farman. The Pir said (and it is recited stil today after reading a Talika)" Eji Sahebe Farman Lakhi Mokaliya" which means the Lord has sent a Farman in writting.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:08 pm

agakhani wrote:
For Talika Mubarak you did not clearly mentioned whether it is from Imam or Pir.
Ok, I clear it for you!

Talika Mubarak comes from both i.e. from Imam and Pir! If you have ever give attention on any Talika Mubarak then you should have heard this words ' PATERNAL AND MATERNAL LOVING BLESSING!! Paternal blessing is from Imam as a father and maternal blessing is from pir as a mother.

Let me ask you a question, literally which Imam started first the phrase,' paternal and maternal.' I never heard or any body, Mukhi announcing dindaro this talika is from pir saheb.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:11 pm

Admin wrote:A remark for the work "Talika".

In my opinion a Talika is a Farman, whatever it contains. A Talika is a written Farman. The Pir said (and it is recited stil today after reading a Talika)" Eji Sahebe Farman Lakhi Mokaliya" which means the Lord has sent a Farman in writting.

Admin. gave good reply by quoting ginan. 'Sahebe farman lakhi mokaliya', here SAHEB is Imam.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:09 pm

mazharshah wrote: Let me ask you a question, literally which Imam started first the phrase,' paternal and maternal.' I never heard or any body, Mukhi announcing dindaro this talika is from pir saheb.

The Imam is always the Shah and the Peer - ShahPeer or GurNar. Sometimes he delegates the role of Piratan to another member of Ahl al-Bayt. At present he performs both roles by himself.

At the time of Pir Hasan Kabirdeen, the author of the Ginan: Sahebe Farman Lakhi Mokalya, the Imam functioned as the Imam only and hence the Talika was from the Imam.

At present however, the Talika is written in the capacity of the Imam and the Peer. In some Talikas it is stated: "I pray for the rest of the soul."
The Peer prays not the Imam who is the object of prayer.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:00 am

Ya Ali Madad:
the word 'talika' as posted by Admin is typical 'blinkered khoja' view.
While difination by kmaherali of 'talika mubarak' is almost correct that of an Ismaili Scholar.
There is tradition of recite a couple of event realted ginans after talika
most possibly by default. because the message can contain many things good,sad and mainly farmans.
So reciting a Ginan with the word does NOT stamp it as a absolute Farman.
Ginans are recited without even knowing the it's content.
Nowaday Imam send send message of event relating to Noorani family.
many years back ,there was sad message on demise of Mata Salamat.
I assume the ginan also has wording to rejoice/ celebrate.
I feel Khojas must shed their blinkers,I see our board n IIS having many such refreshers to holitistic outlook to Ismailism as desired by MHI.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:29 am

For your info, if you are allergic to "Khojas blinkers", you may contribute in opening a non-Khoja website or Forum instead of wasting your time here complaining of Khojas who have given you permission to post here

.

You use of the respected word "Khoja" in your insulting way is in fact an insult to Hazar Imam's Farman made in Karachi October 2000 which I have no doubt, you would be aware of, if ever you have set a foot in "Khoja" Jamatkhanas where it is read from time to time..... [do not ask me to quote, I will not]

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:50 am

The Imam is always the Shah and the Peer - ShahPeer or GurNar. Sometimes he delegates the role of Piratan to another member of Ahl al-Bayt. At present he performs both roles by himself.

I had written the exactly the same thing in my deleted post! what Kbhai has just written above! it may be little different language but meaning was the same!

Kbhai,

" Shah na khat aavya" is written by Syed Imam Shah not pir Hasan Kabirdin.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:58 am

agakhani wrote: " Shah na khat aavya" is written by Syed Imam Shah not pir Hasan Kabirdin.

No this Ginan is Sahebe Farman Lakhi Mokalya exactly as mentioned:

Eji Saahebe farmaan lakhi mokalyaa
sunno maaraa nar hari re ya Ali;
sevak sambhaaryaa vaale aaj
man maanhe mayaa dhari re ya Ali 1

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3781

Shahnaa Khat Avyaa:

Eji Shaahnaa khat aayaa viraa janpudip maanhe;
kaany laaviyaa laaviyaa chandan vir 1

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3678

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:04 am

That is correct! you are right! Kbhai!

By the way there is a similar ginan SHAH NA KHAT AVYA which was composed by Syed Imam Shah!!! I am putting few ginanic verses below:-

Eji shah na khat aavya viraa Jampudip mahe;
kaai laaviyaa laaviyaa chandan vir 1

Eji Shaahnaa khat vaanchiyaa Pir Indr Imaamdin;
aaj maare haydde harakh na maay 2

Eji Pir Indr Imaamdin aashaa mukhe boliyaa vinati;
saami gat naa gunaa bakash karo ji 13

Source: Ismaili. net ginan section.