quran as mentioned in preamble

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

nuseri wrote:To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

Please give the reference from Quran Ayats only where it clearly mentions
that soul is confined to body after death in the grave n in transit to final day?
Discussion of Quran is not possibles with you
You do not believe in Quran Muslims believe and read and I do not have access to Bolta Quran ( I doubt even you have).
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

BR tret

There are many article on what happens after death and Azahbe aaa at
This is not thread to discuss it
Search for "What Happens After Death? Life in the Grave" It gives Shia view
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

From the article "What happens after death? Life in the grave"
Terror of the Grave

Imam Ali says, "O servants of Allah! The state in the grave of a person whose sins are not forgiven is more horrifying than death itself. Fear its (the grave's) narrowness, its squeezing, its imprisonment and its loneliness. Verily the grave calls out daily: 'I am the house of loneliness, the house of terror and worms.' The grave is like a garden of Paradise for a good-doer, while it is like a dungeon of hell for the evil-doer. Allah tells His enemies He will send ninety nine serpents in their graves that will tear their flesh and smash their bones, and this punishment will continue till the Day of Judgment. If one such serpent exhales towards this earth, all the plants and trees will be destroyed. O servants of Allah! Your souls are tender, and your bodies delicate; you cannot confront any ordinary serpent of this world, how then will you face them?"

The above tradition is enough to cause one to shudder, but let us not forget that for a good-doer, "the grave is like a garden of Paradise." In fact, the very first good news given to a true believer in the grave is: "The Most Merciful God has forgiven you and all those who participated in your burial."
tret
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Post by tret »

zznoor wrote:BR tret

There are many article on what happens after death and Azahbe aaa at
This is not thread to discuss it
Search for "What Happens After Death? Life in the Grave" It gives Shia view
Since the beginning of humanity, men have always speculated and contemplated what happens after death. there are different views and beliefs for sure; I simply asked about your assertion your own view, which you said.

a) no one is in heaven or hell
b) men are punished or rewarded in grave.

So, if we agree, logically that heaven and hell is for punishment and reward, then how come man are punished in grave, if they aren't in hell or heaven?

This is logical, do you not see it?

I am sure admin would spare you, should you add your two cents.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Beta version. Kindly report any error in this text (specify the surah and aya numbers).

Quran arabic text from Tanzil.info licensed under the Creative Commons BY-ND 3.0 Unported license.

Request: Sura 23 Aya 99 to 100


[Shakir 23:99] Until when death overtakes one of them, he says: Send me back, my Lord, send me back"
[Shakir 23:100] Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.

[Pickthal 23:99] Until, when death cometh unto one of them, he saith: My Lord! Send me back,
[Pickthal 23:100] That I may do right in that which I have left behind! But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised.

[Yusufali 23:99] (In Falsehood will they be) Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "O my Lord! send me back (to life),-
[Yusufali 23:100] "In order that I may work righteousness in the things I neglected." - "By no means! It is but a word he says."- Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up.
tret
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Post by tret »

This state between live and day of resurrection, is barzakh [purgatory]. that's the state where the individual soul that aren't acceptable by the Divine, shall remain, until the day of resurrection. There are different beliefs about the concept of purgatory. Some say, it's on this earth, where one longs for the unity with the Divine. Soul when leaves the body, occupies an imaginary body and knows only of the things that one has done on this physical world [good or wicket]. In case of a wicket soul, it shall remain in that state of shame/regret and consumption until the day of resurrection. So, these are various levels of purgatory, until the final unification with the Divine. So, in these ayats, according to my understanding, is referring Barzakh and not paradise or hell.
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

For ginans lover can find the above information in

'SOL TOL ANE BAVAN GHATIS" There are very good information what happens after death.



But you won't find that, what majority Muslims believe that: dead bodies will be lay down in their graves until day of day of judgement!! :lol: so do not be fool.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
There is no mention of the word grave and soul along with body.
is when death is at doorstep,last few months of natural life.
the human who is sinner get all sign of what could hapPen to it. and shit scared of death n pleading for life again,while a good soul await death smilingly. every thing is here.
Life is most noble reward to soul with body n mind.
Sinners real nasty one do no even get human life for their deeds thEy are punished from mineral in volcano,plant or animal for for xx million years.
Because he is 'Rehmat ul Aalmin' he does give life again for soul to repent,seek forgiveness and raised it again to desired level on EARTH N EARTH ONLY.
the barrier/distance/gap is same as of marifat n Shariat or even below that of ignorance LEVEL. they have to pass thru on earth.

t
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

According SMS one Farman MOT E TO KHARA MOMIN MATE EID NO DIVAS CHHE! SACHO MOMIN MOT THI DARTO NATHI, ENA MATE MOT EK KBUSHI NO AVSAR CHHE!"
not exact wording.
fayaz006
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Post by fayaz006 »

agakhani wrote:According SMS one Farman MOT E TO KHARA MOMIN MATE EID NO DIVAS CHHE! SACHO MOMIN MOT THI DARTO NATHI, ENA MATE MOT EK KBUSHI NO AVSAR CHHE!"
not exact wording.
Translation Please
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

fayaz006 wrote:
agakhani wrote:According SMS one Farman MOT E TO KHARA MOMIN MATE EID NO DIVAS CHHE! SACHO MOMIN MOT THI DARTO NATHI, ENA MATE MOT EK KBUSHI NO AVSAR CHHE!"
not exact wording.
Translation Please
For a momin, death is a day of Eid, a true momin does not fear death, for him/her it is a happy occasion.
ismailignosis
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Post by ismailignosis »

Dear Mazhar

You are incorrect when you say that Allah can change His act.

Because Allah is eternal and eternal means beyond all time and change. If Allah were to change His act, then He would be changing and therefore, He would be in time and composed of parts. This means Allah is not truly one and therefore there must be another cause beyond Allah since anything made of parts must be caused.

Mazhar you also quoted the Qur'an and the bi-haqqi prayer. I have no disagreement that we pray to Allah bi haqqi (by the right of) the Imams. However, in the Dua we also pray to the Imam and seek blessings and relief from him. See Part 5:

Ya Imam al-Zaman, Ya Mawlana Anta Quwwati wa Anta Sanadi wa 'alayka'tikali.

O Imam of the Time, You are my Strength and You are my Support and upon you I rely.

Please read my latest article - I will LOGICALLY prove to you that praying to the Imam is extremely beneficial and completely consistent with Tawhid. In fact, the prayers and blessings of the Prophet and the Imam of the Time make a HUGE DIFFERENCE in whether our prayers will be fulfilled or not. Because God Himself is beyond change, He is eternal, and His blessings always rain down on us. The changes that prayer brings are not changes in God, they are changes in the human soul who prays. Now, the Imam's prayers and blessings - in addition to our own prayers - can make a great difference and change within our soul. When our soul is transformed and purified by the Imam's blessings, then we are able to receive MORE of the blessings that Allah is ALREADY sending down on us. So you see, the Imam's blessings make ALL the difference in the world. Please read the whole article and I challenge you to try and refute any arguments I have. I have proven from both logic and metaphysics on one hand and the Qur'an on the other hand:

http://ismailignosis.com/2015/03/22/ya- ... in-prayer/

The Ismailis are completely justified in addressing the above needs and requests to the Prophet or Imam himself – calling out “Ya Ali Madad”, “Ya Ali”, “Ya Muhammad”, “Ya Mawla”, or “Ya Hazar Imam” followed by a specific request. This practice of actually calling upon the name of the wasilah – whether a Prophet or Imam – is confirmed in the Qur’anic narrative of how the Children of Israel asked Moses for water.

And We inspired to Moses when his people implored him for water (istasqahu), “Strike with your staff the stone,” and there gushed forth from it twelve springs. Every people knew its watering place.
– Holy Qur’an 7:160

There are two important points in the above verse:
a) The people addressed their request for water to Moses (istasqahu = they asked him for water)
b) Moses, under God’s inspiration, answered their prayer and fulfilled their request by producing twelve springs of water
Thus, the Children of Israel were justified in requesting water from Moses and God answered their prayer and fulfilled their request through Moses. In this case, both the Children of Israel and God Himself make us of Moses as their wasilah (means of access).

Along the same lines, the believers are completely justified in addressing their requests and prayers to the Imam of the Time by calling “Ya Ali”, “Ya Hazar Imam”, etc. The Imam is conscious of the requests and supplications of his believers and mercifully responds to them.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III at the age of 8 years when he made the below address.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III at the age of 8 years when he made the below address.

"Outwardly, Mawla Murtada ‘Ali used to eat bread made of barley, but otherwise, he used to tear apart mountains, and within a moment used to reach the other end of the world, and whoever sought the help of Mawla Murtada ‘Ali he used to fulfill their wishes and resolve their difficulties. We are the great grandson of Mawla Murtada ‘Ali."
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III,
(Address in Bombay, September 1, 1885)

The connection between the Imam of the Time and his believers is a spiritual one: the soul of the Imam is connected to the souls of the believers through the bay‘ah and this connection transcends time and space. The Qur’an says that “the Prophet is closer to the believers than their own souls” (Qur’an 33:6) and this holds true for the Imam since he is the Prophet’s successor. The Imam’s spiritual support (ta’yid) and blessings can reach the souls of his believers regardless of their physical locations. In this respect, the pure soul of the Imam of the Time serves as the relay point from which God’s blessings are extended to the believers and to humanity at large. In at least two places, the Qur’an indicates that God has bestowed His favours on certain human beings and that these individuals have the permission and authority to extend and bestow God’s favours and blessings to others without restriction:

God sets forth the Parable (of two men): a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? Praise be to God. But most of them understand not.
– Holy Qur’an 16:75

Such are Our Gifts: whether you bestow them or withhold them, no account will be asked.
– Holy Qur’an 38:39
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

It is my conviction that Hazar Imam never make any farman beyond the principles of Quran or Hududullah. There are Huqququllah and Huqququl Ibad.
In these 2 vital fields, we can see Imam's farmans are according to Quran.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
An author par excellence intellect is not closed down the last n final which got published or earlier book he has authored.
in same way a member posting in not sruck on last final posting he/she has made.
Ali+lah=Allah's final book,earlier he had send down messages with earlier prophets.
he is creator of universe and all element on earth, so the book is in fact ONE OF his intellectual expression, he doe retire or go into oblivion after that.
So ALI's expression is much beyond Quran and other holy book.
there is a word 'evolve' in Quran ,so ALI does speak on geology and astronomy and ,envireoument and range of current subjects.
ALI is blocked in to the book, the book is par nparcel of ALI's imagination n intellect expressed 1370 years back.
I have observed extract of farmans aligning in near total word of bible n gita, he has authored that. he does disregard that.

So Intellect of GOD is greater than he expressed.He is not locked,bounded or tied into that.
by doing that we limiting our faith in him and his infinite intellect flow.
I do attend some religious gathering the essence to start the speech is similar of amny of some OM NAMASHIVAY' wahe guru de naam'.
bhagwan na naam thi'.
they mostly mean in THE name of the god. they are as human as us.
many start speech to modern greetingS, that does not make them unholy
So containing ALI+lah=Allah in verses n words , an average scholar cannot understand simple Arabic word in Quran is totally stupid n ignorant misunderstanding of a person.
I at times non religious speak at gathering.I silently say 'Ya ALI madad'
seek help from God.I have shaken up listeners from the word GO. where finding of today to improve tommorow papers are allowed.

What ALI must say or do or what an Ismaili must sat ,add, delete in what they say in JK.
NO human being has the right other than ALI in matters of our Ismaili Tariqa.

Admin must bring all this doctored , fabricated useless junk posting to an end.It is not adding any any value but rubbish in the forum data.

EXPRESSION OF BOOK BELONGS TO AN AUTHOR AND NOT VICE VERSA
ANY FOOL CAN TELL THAT.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazharshah wrote:It is my conviction that Hazar Imam never make any farman beyond the principles of Quran or Hududullah. There are Huqququllah and Huqququl Ibad.
In these 2 vital fields, we can see Imam's farmans are according to Quran.
Yes, provided it is the Eternal Qur'an the one from the beginning and not the one compiled 1400 years ago!
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:It is my conviction that Hazar Imam never make any farman beyond the principles of Quran or Hududullah. There are Huqququllah and Huqququl Ibad.
In these 2 vital fields, we can see Imam's farmans are according to Quran.
Yes, provided it is the Eternal Qur'an the one from the beginning and not the one compiled 1400 years ago!

To Kmaherali,

What do you mean by eternal Quran? Can you define it, please?
fayaz006
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Post by fayaz006 »

mazharshah wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:It is my conviction that Hazar Imam never make any farman beyond the principles of Quran or Hududullah. There are Huqququllah and Huqququl Ibad.
In these 2 vital fields, we can see Imam's farmans are according to Quran.
Yes, provided it is the Eternal Qur'an the one from the beginning and not the one compiled 1400 years ago!

To Kmaherali,

What do you mean by eternal Quran? Can you define it, please?
It is the ""Book" that has the record of all creation , be it past, present or the future. It is the book that has the weight to split mountains in half. It is the light of heavens and the earth. I believe this is how God defines it. You should know that since you've been pounding the Quran on this forum.
Now since you have read the " Quran " can you please point out to me where I can find just one of the properties of the eternal Quran?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazharshah wrote:To Kmaherali,

What do you mean by eternal Quran? Can you define it, please?
Also it is the book which is indicated in the phrase Ahl al-kitab - People of the Book. There is only one book!
mazharshah
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Post by mazharshah »

fayaz006 wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
kmaherali wrote:Yes, provided it is the Eternal Qur'an the one from the beginning and not the one compiled 1400 years ago!

To Kmaherali,

What do you mean by eternal Quran? Can you define it, please?
It is the ""Book" that has the record of all creation , be it past, present or the future. It is the book that has the weight to split mountains in half. It is the light of heavens and the earth. I believe this is how God defines it. You should know that since you've been pounding the Quran on this forum.
Now since you have read the " Quran " can you please point out to me where I can find just one of the properties of the eternal Quran?
To Fayyaz.

That is LOH E MAHFUZ ( THE GUARDED TABLET ).
Thanks for your words," since you have been pounding the Quran on this forum." I think except 30/40% of khojas/mominas, rest of Ismailis believe in Quran.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

mazharshah wrote: That is LOH E MAHFUZ ( THE GUARDED TABLET ).
Thanks for your words," since you have been pounding the Quran on this forum." I think except 30/40% of khojas/mominas, rest of Ismailis believe in Quran.
All Ismailis believe in the Qur'an. They however pay more attention to the authoritative ta'wil and tafsir as reflected in the Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
What I see in reality the weight of the holy can break physically at the most 2-3 roasted papads.
My deepest conviction that the author of the holy book and it's content therein i.e Ali+lah=Allah has the infinite power to do more than splitting the mountains.
The so called Holy book is one of the intellectual n creative expression made 1370 years back by Ali+lah=Allah.He had also authored few book earlier.
So no need to carried away from it at it's face value and zahiri understanding of word/words and bring the debate down to petty level.
the 'shallow' follower of this book have caused enough damage n distress to the world.
It is also not a policeman manual.where one who follows it has to be regimental. there is no order that all saying or address must start with the word Bismillah, only few of the Suras start with that word.

Just by digging some absurd arabic words huduallah.fuduallah,tuduallah is sheer waste of time.
If the book mentions that 'face of thy Lord'
A sensible person MUST start to search the face of the author/lord from it.
There is also no mention of what duration time a prayer should b?
no how many inches beard to be grown? what type of cap to wear?
how to posture n bend by offering prayer. there in one or few Ayats that one can pray in sleeping position.
So all the observation outside the book can be good n rubbish as well. That is following a person n observation of tom dick n harry not the word of Ali+lah= Allah from the book.
for Today Past is no the destiny but the future with study n implications of the present reality.
Ali+lah=Allah is reflected in Holy book but not contained,ordained or confined into it.

DIN DUNIYA KA BADSHAH EK KITAAB KA

GULAAM KABHI KABHI NAHI HO SAKTA.

WOH TO SAARI KITABO KA REHNUMAA HO SAKHTA HAI
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

only few of the Suras start with that word.
Please stop discussing or dishing Muslim Holy book. It may not mean anything to you but means lot to Muslim ummah. Even 70% of Ismaili believe in it.

For your information all but one Sura start with Bismillah. I hope you will remember this simple fact.
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

I think except 30/40% of khojas/mominas, rest of Ismailis believe in Quran.
Where did you find above percentage? as I told you earlier that without any solid plat from and proper survey don't put any guessing! which has no value at all!!

Ismailis are Muslim first then after they are Ismailis, Ismaili is their sect to reach to the Allah and as a Muslim all Ismailis also believes and accepts Quran as Islam's holy book including my shelf.

But that is different story that Quran is not complete and has been altered many times (which we have a discussed in this forum) so that we have to rely on Bolta Quran "Rashikun fil Ilm!" and this person is our MHI!.
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

About the word "Bismillah" and Quran:

* Only one Sura start without "Bismillah" is "Surah Tauba" which is revealed for Munafiq peoples and also because Allah talks about His anger and punishments in that particular surah, and Bismillah contains words about His Compassion and Mercy, and these two things do not go together.

* Do you know that the word "Bismillah" has been used 114 times in Quran?.

* Do you know that in "Sura Al Namal" Bismillah comes twice?
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Yes I know Bismillah is used 114 times. Thanks
Ismailis are Muslim first then after they are Ismailis, Ismaili is their sect to reach to the Allah and as a Muslim all Ismailis also believes and accepts Quran as Islam's holy book including my shelf.

But that is different story that Quran is not complete and has been altered many times (which we have a discussed in this forum) so that we have to rely on Bolta Quran "Rashikun fil Ilm!" and this person is our MHI!.
True Muslim believes in Quran without any ifs or buts.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

zznoor wrote:
True Muslim believes in Quran without any ifs or buts.
Yes "True Muslim" according to you but who knows if in the eyes of Allah Subhana Wa Tala you are one. I have doubt that a person that judges other people's faith, a privilege reserved to Allah Himself, would not be considered as a stealing Allah Subhana Wa Tala's right to judge.

We Ismailis have been told by our Imam that only Allah Subhana Wa Tala can judge. Therefore we do fundamentally disagree with your positions.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Which Muslim degrades his Holy book by calling it corrupted, altered, omitted without showing even one corrupted Aya!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:Which Muslim degrades his Holy book by calling it corrupted, altered, omitted without showing even one corrupted Aya!
What difference does it make whether it is corrupted or not when "Imam" is interpreted as "book"?
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

I do not Google to find what word/word n how many time in the book n copy paste that.It was a educating info from you.

my POV:(HB=Holy Book)

1.One must try to understand in what period it came and what could have been the literacy rate them (may be 0.5%) for people with ability to write fine arabic.( India with rich history n book had literacy ratio of just 14% in the year 1947.Imagine 1300 year past that)
2. How many years it took to be completed and media used to wirte upon in those time?
3.How challenging would it have been to collate all the data from various people ,media,area of 23 years and the exercise took 7 years?

4.Does this reality n figures and status then raises chance of error?
or it was 100% perfect job.

on observing the flow of suras and Ayat all machting with each other
and assuming first ayats came in very first year n last one in 22/23rd years.

I found ONE very serioius n important placement of an Ayat TOTALLY LOOKING OUT OF PLACE and rythem,sync n flow of ayats n topic around it.

it is the flagship verse Ayat in sura 5 and Ayat no 3.:

4. this verse which sound like a final verse of n closing remark of sort
come at very early stage( may be 3/4 year.
the Ayat is specifically for allah's order on choice of animal meat allowed n forbidden.

This verse seem totally true but placed in totally wrong place.
any educated Muslim with open mind will that this verse seem out of place.
If this indeed is VISIBLE possible misplacement of the final flagship verse
which orders n validate the whole book and name of religion is also given.

this important verse which with logic n reasoning and observing infinite intellect of God in placing of verses beautifully in the whole book.
I assume n feel that this verse would have been a part of some other Sura and Ayat important one's coming in the end as final sign off from Allah.
One can assume it as benefit of doubt in collating gigantic data.
This surah 5 manuscript s are found as in Uk n Germany of 1370 old
should very closely n minutely check Ayat no 3.
to see that this flagship verse:
a) it is there or not?
b) If it is there, are the handwriting of all the ayats same including this verse?
I wish every educated mind with reasoning tell me whether this verse appearing in between Ayat no 3 of forbidden of swine meat.
looks totally perfect or possibly out of place.( God had made no mistakes)
I also feel Our board n seniors of IIS can ask MHI is matter of HB.
I have got my answer in my heart.
they should get in verbal sound byte.
And the world from the manuscripts found aged 1370 years old.
Nobody is challenging it simply because it is risking one's life Immediately.
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Post by Admin »

nuseri wrote:I see ALI speaking in English and sending messages in English.
Don't forget French Farmans ;-)

If the Quran was revealed in this Century, Allah would have revealed it in any of the languages widely used today in a world not restricted to Arabia but a world without boundary.

Indeed man has made a giant leap in the past many Centuries and thanks to Allah, Knowledge doubles every 5 years...
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