agakhani wrote:If you think Quran is answer then you are wrong because Quran is not complete either.and that question has been never solved for more than 14 centuriesz
I agree with you that we need translator and we Ismaili already have it! Our imam does that job when some one can not understand the meaning of ginans he or she ask our imam directly.
But if I do not understand sura fateha or Noor? Whom should I contact for more detail? Because there are many interpretation on these ayas whom to believe and whom not to believe is a big question mark for me.
You also ask your Imam to understand sura Al Fateha or Noor. You trust him right? Once he explains you you write it down so rest of Ummah can also benefit.
Now just for your info. I do not believe MHI is super natural or he does not sleep or he knows all spoken languages or he is "Gaib Ka Jankar".
He is good shepherd, good leader, good politician, good philontrophist and good human being and good Muslim.
zznoor wrote:Even those who read, write and understand Gujarati like myself cannot understand ginan written in Kacchi or Memony or Kathiawadi dialect. They would still need somebody to explain Ginan to them
I agree with you, I think for the first time! Yes knowledge of the language is not sufficient to understand poetical/mystical literature. Some explanation and commentary is necessary.
I observe that it is unfair on part of one member to abuse to your fair n valid question on Ginan. Ignore n keep going.
What you think of our MHI is your impression or belief or non belief on HIM.
It can be your opportunity or misfortune.
There are over 200 spiritually rich Ginans which are in circulation for regular reciting.
No need to dig into many more.they are in simple,chaste or polished gujarati
which all of us can understand the wordings n sentences.
Important to deeply understand it's core essence in what is trying to deliver.
that can come even reading no more than a dozen of it.
Data can b millions word, but ultimate essence in one word or two corelated words.
Ismailism along with 'Ethics of Islam" and side by side Quality of Lifeand not just all time rituals of Islam.
you must be observing those are adamant into rituals of Islam,what havoc they are creating.
When I was young ,I was considering myself to clever n intelligent for my age.I was also under impression How can one man like you n me sitting
in Paris also be Imam in the first place forget he being the ultimate.
You may b right that basic human logic thinks the same way.
Understanding how the spiritual management of universe takes place in perfect chain.( angels.jinns,stars.etc) and the event that ocoured at that time. Since them I am singing like canary.
As you are aware that even on line of few words in Quran is not easy
to know. like' we raised them up blind'. 'Everything that evolves belong to
Allah". the study of word 'Allah' is not done.
BTW faith of central Asian Ismailis was upheld thru times with just few dozen qasidas n manqabat
so understanding of few Ginans is enough ,all others also try to deliver the same message.
You still have answer the question to probability of Error in compilation process of the Holy Book.
agakhani wrote:
But if I do not understand sura fateha or Noor? Whom should I contact for more detail? Because there are many interpretation on these ayas whom to believe and whom not to believe is a big question mark for me.[/b]
There have been many many commentaries within our tradition on these common suras/ayats. You don't really need direct guidance from the Imam for that. Generally the Imams have designated this kind of work to the Dais and the Pirs and there are lots of commentaries from them.
Today our IIS is engaged in the study and publication of various tafsirs that have been done throughout history. This exercise is primarily done to show the diversity of interpretations within the Umma.
zznoor wrote:He is good shepherd, good leader, good politician, good philontrophist and good human being and good Muslim.
That is a good enough understanding for a non-Ismaili, so long as you are not critical of the supernatural beliefs of the Ismailis who consider him as the Mazhar of Allah and hence is unlimited in his capacity.
Now just for your info. I do not believe MHI is super natural or he does not sleep or he knows all spoken languages or he is "Gaib Ka Jankar".
He is good shepherd, good leader, good politician, good philontrophist and good human being and good Muslim.
As per Ismaili perceptive and belief, MHI has a Ruhani power, he is supernatural person, he has unlimited powers which human being can not have thus he doesn't need sleep and he can knows every spoken languages!!. He is a holder of Allah's Noor, in another words he is Mazhar of Allah.
Please to note of your qualitative statement, we can take off from there and move with logic n reasonings of an educated civil ,moral mind of realaity of today with ZERO copy paste of the past.
You are in principally acknowledge n believe that
"He is good shepherd, good leader, good politician, good philontrophist and good human being and good Muslim."
well Jesus Christ also said 'LORD IS MY SHEPHERD".
He had absolute belief that the shepherd was the best in the world n universe.
You would also think that your parents were led by if not a better at least a good shepherd.and you are result from that flock of sheep.
You seem to be aligned to Ismailism ,may not fully believe in it or accepting it at all.
I see this an opportunity not a problem.
You have mentioned our MHI to good 6 times in most fields n parameter.
So one can assume such a good good person who speaks in clean English
would be speaking truth , may be not absolute truth to many.
Are you willing to know what he says n go forward on logic n reasonings
of his status.
First come acknowledgment, then come belief and finally acceptance.
at least you said of first by saying 'good' many times.
just in jest.
If we say good multiple times ,as to save typing time or breath we not remove one alphabet .'O'. it would read as 'god'.
I feel over a period of time without past rituals n copy paste of dead era you yourself
will erase one 'O' from it.
Know thyself know GOD.
He wont declare every now n then. You soul,conscience must enlighten your assumed educated mind.
for that two thing are needed from a fair/low to average belief in what the good shepherd says( did he failed your parent as a part his flock?).
and meditation.It is your n your only enlightenment n not dis orientation.
Reading 100++ of books can confuse a person.
See the state of a member who has read over 4000+ books.
AAPNE DIL KI SUNO ,NAHI KE DUNIYA KEE.
NAHI AAPNE CHALAAK DIMAG KEE
May the god shepherd(oops it is good shepherd) say thanks to you n bless you as a respectable elderly( badho ka ashirwad) if you as much respect for him as stated by you.
junglikhan4 wrote:
Please look at the 4th couplet, He does not has a mother or father as He became the unknowable by Himself. Now In the 5th couplet, when He became apparent, He took the form of Mullah, Qazi, pesh imam, and performer of namaz. Actually the mystic is describing the NIRANJAN.
Yes he is describing the Nirinjan which he was tranformed into! So the Mulla and Qazi refers to the Nirinjan.
Remember our discussion was about whether God was everything as you stated and I refuted that it is no so from the Ginanic point of view.
Reply,
Let me ask you two questions. Our further discussion will continue after your answers.
1. Do you believe every particle in universe is noor of Allah?
2. Do you believe every human being is Mazhar of Allah?
I am talking of total Ismailis presently living on surface of earth approx. 15 millions, out of which 70% don't speak or understand Gujrati.
Don't forget that ginans are created and composed keeping in mind only Jumpudwip Ismailis not the other parts Ismailis!! and Majority peoples from Indo-Pak areas speaks, writes and read Gujarati and that is the bottom line the main reason to compose ginans in Gujarati because that language was spoken in Jampudwip areas and the new converted Ismailis were illiterate they didn't know any other language like Arabic, Persian.
Reply,
I don't know how many bottom lines you have! Can you explain what is the real jumpudwep?
ismaili103 wrote:Pir Saddadin himself wrote in his Ginan that Pir use 20+ language and 40+ Raags.
From the day you are here in this forum you have only misconceptions i.e
Ginan is only for khoja, while Imam said Ginan is great tradition and every Ismaili should follow it.
Another one, Quran is superior than Ginan,but Imam equally treat both. Quran and Ginan are Farman of the Imam. Yeah I know you are Thinking how cone Ginan became Farman of Imam, but BACCHAY TJHE 100 JANAM LAG JAYE GE YE SAMAJHNE K LIYE K IMAM OR PIR KON HA.
I know some language of Ginan,
Gujrati , Sanskrit, Sindhi, Kachi, saraiki, Punjbi, Khojki, Balochi, hindi, Urdu, bengali, marathi etc Pir also use many native languages from the state of Gujrat, Rajhasthan, Sindh etc
Pir Shams in Bhram Prakash said that He built 100 jamatkhanas in China, it is possible that Pir had also used Chinese and central asian lingo in Ginans, dont Forget Missionary Kara Ruda once said that we have lost many of our Ginan in Migration, Disasters, no proper preservation etc,
He said Pirs wrote around 10 millions part or literature, but now we have only around 1 or 2 lakh parts of literature...sad but true.
Reply,
In one of my previous posts, I suggested you to study, research, think and then post.Your quote is," Pir Sadruddin wrote ginans in 20+ languages and 40 raags." I wander chacha did not corrected his bhatija! Let me quote Pir Sadruddin. He wrote," 36 varan aney 42 sur bhankhiya ". Kid You have mentioned only 12 languages out of 20 which you quoted and for your information Khojki is not a language and Kachhi is also not a complete language, ask your chacha. At the time of pir Sadruddin there was no Urdu language. Do not give wrong information. Please show me any complete ginans in Bengali, Baluchi and Sanskrit languages? Call help line again!!!
ismaili103 wrote:Pir Saddadin himself wrote in his Ginan that Pir use 20+ language and 40+ Raags.
From the day you are here in this forum you have only misconceptions i.e
Ginan is only for khoja, while Imam said Ginan is great tradition and every Ismaili should follow it.
Another one, Quran is superior than Ginan,but Imam equally treat both. Quran and Ginan are Farman of the Imam. Yeah I know you are Thinking how cone Ginan became Farman of Imam, but BACCHAY TJHE 100 JANAM LAG JAYE GE YE SAMAJHNE K LIYE K IMAM OR PIR KON HA.
I know some language of Ginan,
Gujrati , Sanskrit, Sindhi, Kachi, saraiki, Punjbi, Khojki, Balochi, hindi, Urdu, bengali, marathi etc Pir also use many native languages from the state of Gujrat, Rajhasthan, Sindh etc
Pir Shams in Bhram Prakash said that He built 100 jamatkhanas in China, it is possible that Pir had also used Chinese and central asian lingo in Ginans, dont Forget Missionary Kara Ruda once said that we have lost many of our Ginan in Migration, Disasters, no proper preservation etc,
He said Pirs wrote around 10 millions part or literature, but now we have only around 1 or 2 lakh parts of literature...sad but true.
Reply,
In one of my previous posts, I suggested you to study, research, think and then post.Your quote is," Pir Sadruddin wrote ginans in 20+ languages and 40 raags." I wander chacha did not corrected his bhatija! Let me quote Pir Sadruddin. He wrote," 36 varan aney 42 sur bhankhiya ". Kid You have mentioned only 12 languages out of 20 which you quoted and for your information Khojki is not a language and Kachhi is also not a complete language, ask your chacha. At the time of pir Sadruddin there was no Urdu language. Do not give wrong information. Please show me any complete ginans in Bengali, Baluchi and Sanskrit languages? Call help line again!!!
Bacchay tu phans gaya.....
First of All...pir didnot only wrote Ginans for about 1000 years ago...the lasts of the Ginan were wrote by childrens or pir Hassan kabiruddin e.g syeds, they wrote Ginans for about 450 years ago.....so you can say Ginans are 450 to 1000 years old....
Urdu is 600 years old lingo introduced by mughals , thats why there are many later Ginans which have urdu language.
Pir didnot use entire language for whole Ginan, but most of the Ginans are composed in different lingo for a single Ginan.
There are words from balochi, kachi, khojki and many other lnguage have been used to compose some Ginans.
Dont Forget we have lost our millions of part of literature, it might be possible that there are many Ginans which are composed in only Balochi lingo..
I said balochi because...pir shams, pir sddardin used to travel from sindh to iran via balochistan to meet Imam. It take them more then 6 mnths to reach Imam...its possible that during their journey they had composed some Ginans in bAlochi to introduce ismailism to some balochi tribes.
Near the border or pakistan and iran there is a town situated in balichstan province of pakistan....the town is known as gawadar...they are balochi ismailies and they are not migrated from india, sindh etc they are in balochistan from centuries, even when gawadar is not the part of pakistan.
ismaili103 wrote:Pir Saddadin himself wrote in his Ginan that Pir use 20+ language and 40+ Raags.
From the day you are here in this forum you have only misconceptions i.e
Ginan is only for khoja, while Imam said Ginan is great tradition and every Ismaili should follow it.
Another one, Quran is superior than Ginan,but Imam equally treat both. Quran and Ginan are Farman of the Imam. Yeah I know you are Thinking how cone Ginan became Farman of Imam, but BACCHAY TJHE 100 JANAM LAG JAYE GE YE SAMAJHNE K LIYE K IMAM OR PIR KON HA.
I know some language of Ginan,
Gujrati , Sanskrit, Sindhi, Kachi, saraiki, Punjbi, Khojki, Balochi, hindi, Urdu, bengali, marathi etc Pir also use many native languages from the state of Gujrat, Rajhasthan, Sindh etc
Pir Shams in Bhram Prakash said that He built 100 jamatkhanas in China, it is possible that Pir had also used Chinese and central asian lingo in Ginans, dont Forget Missionary Kara Ruda once said that we have lost many of our Ginan in Migration, Disasters, no proper preservation etc,
He said Pirs wrote around 10 millions part or literature, but now we have only around 1 or 2 lakh parts of literature...sad but true.
Reply,
In one of my previous posts, I suggested you to study, research, think and then post.Your quote is," Pir Sadruddin wrote ginans in 20+ languages and 40 raags." I wander chacha did not corrected his bhatija! Let me quote Pir Sadruddin. He wrote," 36 varan aney 42 sur bhankhiya ". Kid You have mentioned only 12 languages out of 20 which you quoted and for your information Khojki is not a language and Kachhi is also not a complete language, ask your chacha. At the time of pir Sadruddin there was no Urdu language. Do not give wrong information. Please show me any complete ginans in Bengali, Baluchi and Sanskrit languages? Call help line again!!!
Bacchay tu phans gaya.....
First of All...pir didnot only wrote Ginans for about 1000 years ago...the lasts of the Ginan were wrote by childrens or pir Hassan kabiruddin e.g syeds, they wrote Ginans for about 450 years ago.....so you can say Ginans are 450 to 1000 years old....
Urdu is 600 years old lingo introduced by mughals , thats why there are many later Ginans which have urdu language.
Pir didnot use entire language for whole Ginan, but most of the Ginans are composed in different lingo for a single Ginan.
There are words from balochi, kachi, khojki and many other lnguage have been used to compose some Ginans.
Dont Forget we have lost our millions of part of literature, it might be possible that there are many Ginans which are composed in only Balochi lingo..
I said balochi because...pir shams, pir sddardin used to travel from sindh to iran via balochistan to meet Imam. It take them more then 6 mnths to reach Imam...its possible that during their journey they had composed some Ginans in bAlochi to introduce ismailism to some balochi tribes.
Near the border or pakistan and iran there is a town situated in balichstan province of pakistan....the town is known as gawadar...they are balochi ismailies and they are not migrated from india, sindh etc they are in balochistan from centuries, even when gawadar is not the part of pakistan.
Reply,
Ismaili103, once again call help line.
Guwader is not near Iran and Pakistan border. It is about a thousand miles away from Iran border near Arabian sea. Guwader was not part of Pakistan at independence time. It was part of Musqat. In early 60's Hazar Imam helped to purchased the land (it is said Imam paid the price) and Guwader became part of Pakistan. According to history pir Sadruddin never visited Gudwader area. You are living in Karachi Pakistan and do no its geography. From Punjab to visit Iran was less distance and easy route at that time. If pir had to travel via Guwader means pir had to travel 1000 miles extra.
Regarding Baluchi ginans you have assumed and in real they do not exist. By the way Baluchi is a raw form of Persian language.
Pirs haven't written any ginans in Urdu, they have written in Hindi, ask your mentor or a missionary.
Once again to remind you Khojki is not a language, it is a script which was called " chalees akhri " and in early 80's it was banned by some biased leadership of ITREB. THEY MADE A BLUNDER. THEY RUINED A PART OF OUR HERITAGE AND IDENTIFICATION.
Kachhi is also not a complete language because it has no script of its own. Kacchi and Memoni are off shuts of Sindhi language.
junglikhan4 wrote:
Guwader is not near Iran and Pakistan border. It is about a thousand miles away from Iran border near Arabian sea. .
I would say it is about 100 miles km from toda's Iran' border with Pakistan but was part of the Persian Empire in the past. Even up to late 1,800s the population of Gwader spoke in majority Persian.
Total coastline of pakistan is only 900 km , from border of sindh and gujrat to border of balochistan to Iran. So gawadar is around 70 to 80 km away from Iran and gawadar is only town of Southern pakistan which is that much near to Iran.
Well, I already know that Imam buy Gawadar from sultanate of oman, and I already read that article. And Imam knows the best, he buy raw land at 60's for Pakistan and look that land know, Gawadar is the worlds largest deep sea port and work on Pakistan-china economic corridor is begin in gawadar , to connect Gawadar port to kashgar ( China ), It will benefit Pakistan with billions of dollars.
You said Pir used to travel from punjab to Iran....first of all its not possible ,because whole country of Iran is bordered with balochistan...so even if pir used to travel from punjab, they had to travel via balochistan...and punjab to Iran is very long and tricky. If Pir begin there journey from punjab , they had to travel to khyberpakhtunkhua and then cross 4000 meter high solomon ranges then enter into afghanistan by crossing 6000 mtr high koh.e.safed ranges in pakistan. Then afghanistan to Iran.
There are words from balochi, kachi, khojki and many other lnguage have been used to compose some Ginans.
Pir Tajdin has written many ginans in Baluchi language too not only this but he also married to a "Baluchi" ( called Sandha ) women from Baluchistan and from that marriage pir had sons.
There are still many Sandha peoples who believe pir Tajdin as their pir and their ancestors and every years they celebrates one days it holding festival.
There are words from balochi, kachi, khojki and many other lnguage have been used to compose some Ginans.
Pir Tajdin has written many ginans in Baluchi language too not only this but he also married to a "Baluchi" ( called Sandha ) women from Baluchistan and from that marriage pir had sons.
There are still many Sandha peoples who believe pir Tajdin as their pir and their ancestors and every years they celebrates one days it holding festival.
Reply,
Do you know where pir Tajuddin is buried? In which country and area festival is arranged? You are giving wrong information that pir wrote ginans in Baluchi language. If you have even one ginan post here. Please give references other wise your information is not valid.
ismaili103 wrote:1000 of miles ummm.....hahahahahahaha....
Total coastline of pakistan is only 900 km , from border of sindh and gujrat to border of balochistan to Iran. So gawadar is around 70 to 80 km away from Iran and gawadar is only town of Southern pakistan which is that much near to Iran.
Well, I already know that Imam buy Gawadar from sultanate of oman, and I already read that article. And Imam knows the best, he buy raw land at 60's for Pakistan and look that land know, Gawadar is the worlds largest deep sea port and work on Pakistan-china economic corridor is begin in gawadar , to connect Gawadar port to kashgar ( China ), It will benefit Pakistan with billions of dollars.
You said Pir used to travel from punjab to Iran....first of all its not possible ,because whole country of Iran is bordered with balochistan...so even if pir used to travel from punjab, they had to travel via balochistan...and punjab to Iran is very long and tricky. If Pir begin there journey from punjab , they had to travel to khyberpakhtunkhua and then cross 4000 meter high solomon ranges then enter into afghanistan by crossing 6000 mtr high koh.e.safed ranges in pakistan. Then afghanistan to Iran.
Reply,
103, think twice before you leap.
The coastal line of Pakistan is not 900 km, but around 144 miles or approx. 280/300 km. It starts from Hub/Gudyani to Hawks bay to clifton to Thatta coast to Badin. After Badin and Run of Kuchh, Indian territory starts.
I know the work on Pakistan/China economic route is started and I have corridor's route maps. You are a smart man, look at the maps of Pakistan and Iran and figure out what is the easy route. Pir Sadruddin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin visited Iran. Goggle the maps, from Multan via Baluchistan to enter in Sistan is the easiest route in my view.
ismaili103 wrote:1000 of miles ummm.....hahahahahahaha....
Total coastline of pakistan is only 900 km , from border of sindh and gujrat to border of balochistan to Iran. So gawadar is around 70 to 80 km away from Iran and gawadar is only town of Southern pakistan which is that much near to Iran.
Well, I already know that Imam buy Gawadar from sultanate of oman, and I already read that article. And Imam knows the best, he buy raw land at 60's for Pakistan and look that land know, Gawadar is the worlds largest deep sea port and work on Pakistan-china economic corridor is begin in gawadar , to connect Gawadar port to kashgar ( China ), It will benefit Pakistan with billions of dollars.
You said Pir used to travel from punjab to Iran....first of all its not possible ,because whole country of Iran is bordered with balochistan...so even if pir used to travel from punjab, they had to travel via balochistan...and punjab to Iran is very long and tricky. If Pir begin there journey from punjab , they had to travel to khyberpakhtunkhua and then cross 4000 meter high solomon ranges then enter into afghanistan by crossing 6000 mtr high koh.e.safed ranges in pakistan. Then afghanistan to Iran.
Reply,
103, think twice before you leap.
The coastal line of Pakistan is not 900 km, but around 144 miles or approx. 280/300 km. It starts from Hub/Gudyani to Hawks bay to clifton to Thatta coast to Badin. After Badin and Run of Kuchh, Indian territory starts.
I know the work on Pakistan/China economic route is started and I have corridor's route maps. You are a smart man, look at the maps of Pakistan and Iran and figure out what is the easy route. Pir Sadruddin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin visited Iran. Goggle the maps, from Multan via Baluchistan to enter in Sistan is the easiest route in my view.
I guess u have google maps app. Ok just use measuring tool and then measure the coastline of Pakistan.....around 300 km is in sindh and rest of 600 is in balochistan.
Use the same google map and see entire area of eastern Iran is only bordered with balochistan, and use the same measuring tool to get the easiest route which is from sindh.
Ok leave every thing.. Atleast you accept that Pir has to travel via BALOCHISTAN ...
Do you know where pir Tajuddin is buried? In which country and area festival is arranged? You are giving wrong information that pir wrote ginans in Baluchi language.
Yep, I know where Pir Tajdin is buried and yep I am not giving any wrong information that pir wrote ginans in Baluchi!
For serious readers wants to know the proof please e-mail me Admin I will e-mail it to you directly tomorrow
Nothing complicated and I do not have nothing to hide from others readers but by now you know Mr. B. and his habit !!!!
Any way I respect your suggestion so, I will put it here tomorrow with references because I am at work now.
Pir Tajdin's Mazar is in Pakistan located in JUN village very much close to Tando Bago, in Sind province, (I visited that dargah) but everybody thinks it is located in Tando Bago, that is just fine because there is not much distance between Jun and Tando Bago.
I apologize for my wrong statement that pir Tajdin has also wrote ginans in Balochi language! but actually he wrote many ginans in 'THARPARKARI" very similar to Sindhi and Rajasthani language and those ginans are still in possession of his progeny called as Peraj Patro!!
The other facts which I quoted about him that he married to a Sandha women and he had sons called as "Peraj Patro" is true. and they still believe pir Tajdin as their ancestor according Rai Piru Lakha who visited them in village Diplo in Tharparkar.
In his 2003 address to the international colloquium Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions, the Aga Khan said, with respect to freedom of interpretation, that:
This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur’an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word.
Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
Address to the International Colloquium ‘Word of God, Art of Man: The Qur’an and its Creative Expressions’ (London, United Kingdom), October 19, 2003
Similarly, in his 1954 autobiography, “The Memoirs of Aga Khan III — World Enough and Time”, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, Aga Khan III, and the present Aga Khan’s predecessor, wrote:
[T]hat the Qur’an is constantly open to allegorical interpretation … leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III
The Memoirs of Aga Khan III, Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors
That believers may “err” or be “mistaken” in their interpretation requires, of course, an absolute standard against which their interpretation may be judged for mistakes. In other words, while we are permitted to hold our own personal interpretations, these should not be automatically considered or assumed to be correct and valid, as relativism insists, but, rather, we must have the humility to accept we can be mistaken and, further, have the courage to then actually accept our mistakes. However, relativism precludes the very possibility mistakes — as all points of view are equally valid and none can be judged wrong — and thus it denies us the opportunity to be fallible and mistaken. In doing so, relativism renders accountability (even to yourself), humility and their associated courage as all irrelevant and unnecessary, even though these three — fallibility, humility and courage — are essential, irreplaceable fibres of the human condition and, arguably, define what it means to be human.
I guess u have google maps app. Ok just use measuring tool and then measure the coastline of Pakistan.....around 300 km is in sindh and rest of 600 is in balochistan.
Use the same google map and see entire area of eastern Iran is only bordered with balochistan, and use the same measuring tool to get the easiest route which is from sindh.
Ok leave every thing.. Atleast you accept that Pir has to travel via BALOCHISTAN ... [/quote]
But you did not answered my 3 questions so far,
1. Is khojki a language?
2. If there is a ginan in Baluchi language post it.
3. Pir Sadruddin never visited Gwader, if you have any proof, mention it.
Thanks.
junglikhan4 wrote:
But you did not answered my 3 questions so far,
1. Is khojki a language?
2. If there is a ginan in Baluchi language post it.
3. Pir Sadruddin never visited Gwader, if you have any proof, mention it.
Thanks.
You logique is completely flawed. it is not that because you have no trace of Baluchi ginans that none were written and it is not that there is no roof of Pir Sadardin's visit to Gwader that he never went there.
There is no proof of Prophet Muhammad's birth so are you saying that he was never born. Or are you saying that if a critical mass of people are repeating the same thing, it become truth?
The Ikhwan al Safa have a whole treatise on Logic please try to get hold of it.
1. Is khojki a language?
2. If there is a ginan in Baluchi language post it.
3. Pir Sadruddin never visited Gwader, if you have any proof, mention it
1) yes khojki is a language, there are many 300 years old book available in Jks which are in khojki.
2) I said it already that there are words used in ginan from different languages and I had also said that Late bhagat kada rud had said that we hd lost millions of part of literature, so its possible that we had lost ginans in balochi.
3) First you give me prove that Pir Saddardin bever visited balochistn, give me proves from ginans and farmans.
Second I had said you logically it's not possible to enter Iran from other part of Pakistan except Balochistan,
Third there are thousands of native Balochistani ismailies who live in balochistan from 100s of years and they are not from sindh , punjab and Iran, they are native balochis.
1. Is khojki a language?
2. If there is a ginan in Baluchi language post it.
3. Pir Sadruddin never visited Gwader, if you have any proof, mention it
1) yes khojki is a language, there are many 300 years old book available in Jks which are in khojki.
2) I said it already that there are words used in ginan from different languages and I had also said that Late bhagat kada rud had said that we hd lost millions of part of literature, so its possible that we had lost ginans in balochi.
3) First you give me prove that Pir Saddardin bever visited balochistn, give me proves from ginans and farmans.
Second I had said you logically it's not possible to enter Iran from other part of Pakistan except Balochistan,
Third there are thousands of native Balochistani ismailies who live in balochistan from 100s of years and they are not from sindh , punjab and Iran, they are native balochis.
Reply,
How you speak khojki?
Khojki is a script and not a complete language. Script is 700 years old and not 300 years. Ask any linguist at Karachi university in language dept.
You and Mr. AK claimed in your posts about Baluchi Ginans, which I refuted. AK apologized and admitted there are no Baluchi ginans. Insertion of some persian words in ginans does not represent the Baluchi language.
In none of his ginans pir Sadruddin mentioned he visited Gwader nor any history mentions hid being in Gwader.
Now a days there are only few hundred Ismailis living in Pasni, Ormara, and Gwader areas and not thousands and they are not original Baluchs. Mostly their families are stationed in Karachi and men are doing business over there.
junglikhan4 wrote:
But you did not answered my 3 questions so far,
1. Is khojki a language?
2. If there is a ginan in Baluchi language post it.
3. Pir Sadruddin never visited Gwader, if you have any proof, mention it.
Thanks.
You logique is completely flawed. it is not that because you have no trace of Baluchi ginans that none were written and it is not that there is no roof of Pir Sadardin's visit to Gwader that he never went there.
There is no proof of Prophet Muhammad's birth so are you saying that he was never born. Or are you saying that if a critical mass of people are repeating the same thing, it become truth?
The Ikhwan al Safa have a whole treatise on Logic please try to get hold of it.
Reply,
What irritate you? What is aim of above post? Mr.AK and Ismaili103 gave wrong information which I refuted and corrected. For example, there are Baluchi ginans, Khojki is a complete language and historical distortions.
As a moderator it was your job to stop them from posting wrong information.
When you people are maintaining this site for generations to come than why store the wrong information. Well, I am asking you and learned participants
a question, Is Khojki a complete language?
agakhani wrote:Pir Tajdin's Mazar is in Pakistan located in JUN village very much close to Tando Bago, in Sind province, (I visited that dargah) but everybody thinks it is located in Tando Bago, that is just fine because there is not much distance between Jun and Tando Bago.
I apologize for my wrong statement that pir Tajdin has also wrote ginans in Balochi language! but actually he wrote many ginans in 'THARPARKARI" very similar to Sindhi and Rajasthani language and those ginans are still in possession of his progeny called as Peraj Patro!!
The other facts which I quoted about him that he married to a Sandha women and he had sons called as "Peraj Patro" is true. and they still believe pir Tajdin as their ancestor according Rai Piru Lakha who visited them in village Diplo in Tharparkar.
Reply,
Pir Tajuddin had no children ( ref. A brief History of Ismailism by Alwaiz Abu Ali). Only few ginans are available in his name. His piratin lasted 5 years.
whom to believe and whom not to believe is a big question mark for me.
