Farmans of MHI(1957to 2004)-----REINCARNATION & REBIRTH
verses on rebirth
2:28 How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that
you were without life and He gave you life, then He
will cause you to die,
and will again bring you to life, and again
to Him will you return.
3:27 Thou bringest the living out of the dead, and
Thou bringest the dead out of the living;
and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou
pleasest, without measure.
22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to
die, and will again give you life.
Truly, man is a most ungrateful creature.
36:12 Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We
record that which they send before and that which they
leave behind...
36:79 Say: "He will give them life again, He Who
created them for the first time !"
40:11 Our Lord!
Twice hast Thou made us without life and
twice hast Thou given us life.
Now have recognized our sins? Is there
any way out of this?
37:58-60 Is it the case that we shall not die except
for our first death, and that we shall not be further
punished?
Verily, this is the supreme
achievement!
16:70 It is God Who creates you and takes your souls
at death; and of you, there are some who are sent
back...
56:60-61 We have decreed death to be your common
lot, and We are not to be frustrated from changing
your forms and creating you again
in forms that ye know not.
30:27 It is He Who begins the process of Creation,
then repeats it, and for Him it is most easy.
you were without life and He gave you life, then He
will cause you to die,
and will again bring you to life, and again
to Him will you return.
3:27 Thou bringest the living out of the dead, and
Thou bringest the dead out of the living;
and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou
pleasest, without measure.
22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to
die, and will again give you life.
Truly, man is a most ungrateful creature.
36:12 Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We
record that which they send before and that which they
leave behind...
36:79 Say: "He will give them life again, He Who
created them for the first time !"
40:11 Our Lord!
Twice hast Thou made us without life and
twice hast Thou given us life.
Now have recognized our sins? Is there
any way out of this?
37:58-60 Is it the case that we shall not die except
for our first death, and that we shall not be further
punished?
Verily, this is the supreme
achievement!
16:70 It is God Who creates you and takes your souls
at death; and of you, there are some who are sent
back...
56:60-61 We have decreed death to be your common
lot, and We are not to be frustrated from changing
your forms and creating you again
in forms that ye know not.
30:27 It is He Who begins the process of Creation,
then repeats it, and for Him it is most easy.
-
yaaaahoooo
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:28 pm
WOW
ten references from the Quran to show rebirth and reincarnation !!!!
1)first read out the complete ayaat of the sura......
2) secondly try to read the preceding and succedding 5 ayaats in the same sura to gather in what context the whole ayaat is .........
3)thirdly try to think of a meaning like "resurrection on the final day of judgement " for the word and " will again bring you to life, and again
to Him will you return" .
Now how many ayaats are you left with..........????
and we discuss further......for sure.....
ten references from the Quran to show rebirth and reincarnation !!!!
1)first read out the complete ayaat of the sura......
2) secondly try to read the preceding and succedding 5 ayaats in the same sura to gather in what context the whole ayaat is .........
3)thirdly try to think of a meaning like "resurrection on the final day of judgement " for the word and " will again bring you to life, and again
to Him will you return" .
Now how many ayaats are you left with..........????
and we discuss further......for sure.....
Quranic Verses on Death and Life
In my opinion, all the Quranic verses allude to death as death of ignorance. As stated by Tusi (I have quoted him in my earlier post page 1- please read it) a human being is considered dead if he is not on 'Siratul Mustaqueem'. Life is a dose of faith. In one of the ayats quoted there is mention of those who have been dead only once and after having become alive they do not falter again. They are the best and have no further punishment.
On the other hand there are those who having been reborn ( or given life) die again due to negligence and are revived again etc... until they attain the ultimate union with the Imam as per MSMS's statement.
On the other hand there are those who having been reborn ( or given life) die again due to negligence and are revived again etc... until they attain the ultimate union with the Imam as per MSMS's statement.
Re: Quranic Verses on Death and Life
Dude how do you explain this onekmaherali wrote:In my opinion, all the Quranic verses allude to death as death of ignorance. As stated by Tusi (I have quoted him in my earlier post page 1- please read it) a human being is considered dead if he is not on 'Siratul Mustaqueem'. Life is a dose of faith. In one of the ayats quoted there is mention of those who have been dead only once and after having become alive they do not falter again. They are the best and have no further punishment.
On the other hand there are those who having been reborn ( or given life) die again due to negligence and are revived again etc... until they attain the ultimate union with the Imam as per MSMS's statement.
16:70 It is God Who creates you and takes your souls
at death; and of you, there are some who are sent
back...
I have personally met fatmabai about 18 yrs ago (who has since passed). She was very young when Imam SMS accepted her into Paanch Baar saal and when he gave her cchata he said that during the time of Imam Hussayn she had not paid complete dasond and with this cchata he was forgiving her that sin.
My father, when he first met MHI. MHI called him by my great grandfathers name, MHI completely ignored my dads current name.
MHI in the gujrat area mentioned to one president while visiting his home and seeing his new born son that this son was the presidents grandfather(I forget if it was father or grandfather) come again. My friend was on duty responsible for MHI's transportation, he also knew the president personally and he told me that the president told him this.
Things like this make me think about rebirth in a physical sense too.
Re: Quranic Verses on Death and Life
I am not sure from which version this has been taken, but I am reading Picktalls version which states:shamsu wrote:Dude how do you explain this one
16:70 It is God Who creates you and takes your souls
at death; and of you, there are some who are sent
back...
"And Allah createth you, then causeth you to die, and among you is he who is brought back to the most abject stage of life, so that he knoweth nothing after (having had) knowledge. Lo! Allah is Knower, Powerful."
The bold words underline life as knowledge and death as ignorance.
This is difficult! I would have to reflect over it. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Imam equates Pa(n)ch Baar Saal service to the service of Murids during the time of Imam Husein and Fatmabai was an archetype of this seva.shamsu wrote: I have personally met fatmabai about 18 yrs ago (who has since passed). She was very young when Imam SMS accepted her into Paanch Baar saal and when he gave her cchata he said that during the time of Imam Hussayn she had not paid complete dasond and with this cchata he was forgiving her that sin..
This is not difficult. MHI could just be using family name instead of first name. As for the new born it could be a rebirth of a character represented by the grandfather.shamsu wrote: My father, when he first met MHI. MHI called him by my great grandfathers name, MHI completely ignored my dads current name.
MHI in the gujrat area mentioned to one president while visiting his home and seeing his new born son that this son was the presidents grandfather(I forget if it was father or grandfather) come again. My friend was on duty responsible for MHI's transportation, he also knew the president personally and he told me that the president told him this.
Things like this make me think about rebirth in a physical sense too.
Mr. Yaaaahooo:
Why are you so obdurent? Obviously Shamshu, ShamsB, kandani and Kasamali and others are entitled to their opinions. And so you and kmaherali. For god's shake use appropriate language. Both the groups have expressed their views and I don't think any one group will be able to convince the other. This is just only a minor topic, and there many minor topics such as these for which we all will not have similar views.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned both the groups have sufficiently explained their points of views.
Why are you so obdurent? Obviously Shamshu, ShamsB, kandani and Kasamali and others are entitled to their opinions. And so you and kmaherali. For god's shake use appropriate language. Both the groups have expressed their views and I don't think any one group will be able to convince the other. This is just only a minor topic, and there many minor topics such as these for which we all will not have similar views.
Anyway, as far as I am concerned both the groups have sufficiently explained their points of views.
[quote="alimack"]Mr. Yaaaahooo:<BR><BR> And so you and kmaherali. For god's shake use appropriate language. <BR>[/quoteI haven't used any expression to impose my views? Please think before saying this.
It is clearly not a black and white issue as it appears, so no o­ne should impose their opinion o­n others.
It is clearly not a black and white issue as it appears, so no o­ne should impose their opinion o­n others.
If rebirth isnt true...then why are there so many documented cases of children remembering their past-lives?
Check out childpastlives.org for cases documented by Dr. Ian Stevenson.
Do you think that we, in our personalities, and habits, just became like that?
Do you think it is possible for someone to achieve union with Imam's Light in only a single lifetime?
What about the Law of Karma...is that all huckus pockus? Krishna taught the Law of Karma, as did the Indian Sages and Prophets.
Rebirth is also popular among esoteric Jews. See books on Reincarnation and the Holocaust written by Rabbis.
Rebirth also occurs in Buddhism and was debated in early Christianity.
The Fatimid Ismaili philosopher al-Sijistani was suspected of believing in rebirth.
Socrates and Plato did so as well.
Check out childpastlives.org for cases documented by Dr. Ian Stevenson.
Do you think that we, in our personalities, and habits, just became like that?
Do you think it is possible for someone to achieve union with Imam's Light in only a single lifetime?
What about the Law of Karma...is that all huckus pockus? Krishna taught the Law of Karma, as did the Indian Sages and Prophets.
Rebirth is also popular among esoteric Jews. See books on Reincarnation and the Holocaust written by Rabbis.
Rebirth also occurs in Buddhism and was debated in early Christianity.
The Fatimid Ismaili philosopher al-Sijistani was suspected of believing in rebirth.
Socrates and Plato did so as well.
Physical Rebirth
I would like to respond by quoting the following statement from the "Memoirs":
"After death Divine justice will take into consideration the faith, the prayers and the deeds of man. For the chosen there is eternal life and the spiritual felicity of the Divine vision. For the condemned there is hell, where they will be consumed with regret for not having known how to merit the grace and the blessing of Divine mercy".
If reincarnation was true, wouldn't the Imam have stated it here? What could have prevented him from saying it? After all he has made esoteric statements such as: "Divine power guidance manifested in Hazarat Ali" in it. Furthermore there is no ambiguity about it. It is a concept that is well known and accepted by other faiths.
Consider how the Imam's statement finds resonance in the following statement attributed to Prophet Muhammad.
"My dear friend, it is true that when a soul who has not practiced the life of loving submission to Allah reaches Paradise, it cannot bear the intense radiance here, so falls asleep again and dreams of Hell. Hellfire is simply the purifying radiance of Paradise. And all dreams, even dreams of eternal damnation, are but momentary. These dreaming souls soon awaken into Paradise, fully purified and joyously praising the All-Merciful One."
There is not the slightest hint about reincarnation in either of the statements.
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in answering a question from a group of missionaries also denied physical rebirth. As a matter of fact he was further asked "Then why are some children born poor and others rich?" To which he replied: "In terms of happiness all are born equal. It is only the poor who are filled with jealousy and envy are unhappy. The real kings are those who rise early in the mornings and who carry light in their hearts."(I have lost the exact copy of the page and therefore this is a paraphrase).
I have also read a great deal about reincarnation. My approach is that it is tied to cause and effect paradigm of reality. As we are becoming increasingly aware, space, time and causation are only 'windows' through which we 'see' reality. But reality is beyond these and there may open other windows through scientific and other endeavors(Ibaadat). Hence you will seldom hear about reincarnation from great mystics such as Hafiz because they have transcended this paradigm. Their wisdom is best expressed in the following statement.
Banishing the folly of rebirth and thus beholding
Perfection's True Being - that is wisdom. -Tirukkural 36:358
"After death Divine justice will take into consideration the faith, the prayers and the deeds of man. For the chosen there is eternal life and the spiritual felicity of the Divine vision. For the condemned there is hell, where they will be consumed with regret for not having known how to merit the grace and the blessing of Divine mercy".
If reincarnation was true, wouldn't the Imam have stated it here? What could have prevented him from saying it? After all he has made esoteric statements such as: "Divine power guidance manifested in Hazarat Ali" in it. Furthermore there is no ambiguity about it. It is a concept that is well known and accepted by other faiths.
Consider how the Imam's statement finds resonance in the following statement attributed to Prophet Muhammad.
"My dear friend, it is true that when a soul who has not practiced the life of loving submission to Allah reaches Paradise, it cannot bear the intense radiance here, so falls asleep again and dreams of Hell. Hellfire is simply the purifying radiance of Paradise. And all dreams, even dreams of eternal damnation, are but momentary. These dreaming souls soon awaken into Paradise, fully purified and joyously praising the All-Merciful One."
There is not the slightest hint about reincarnation in either of the statements.
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in answering a question from a group of missionaries also denied physical rebirth. As a matter of fact he was further asked "Then why are some children born poor and others rich?" To which he replied: "In terms of happiness all are born equal. It is only the poor who are filled with jealousy and envy are unhappy. The real kings are those who rise early in the mornings and who carry light in their hearts."(I have lost the exact copy of the page and therefore this is a paraphrase).
I have also read a great deal about reincarnation. My approach is that it is tied to cause and effect paradigm of reality. As we are becoming increasingly aware, space, time and causation are only 'windows' through which we 'see' reality. But reality is beyond these and there may open other windows through scientific and other endeavors(Ibaadat). Hence you will seldom hear about reincarnation from great mystics such as Hafiz because they have transcended this paradigm. Their wisdom is best expressed in the following statement.
Banishing the folly of rebirth and thus beholding
Perfection's True Being - that is wisdom. -Tirukkural 36:358
Can you guess who this person ' Yaaahoo' is? Well let us know this person's personality. In his messages to topics: ' Reincarnation' and his initiated topic,' MHI Farmans on Reincarnation', this gentleman has used following language in his various posts. Here are samples of only five such statesments.
<Quote: "1. If u knew who I was u wud have never talked to me in this way........
2. I sincerely wish that u keep your mouth shut ........
3. ........ which may not be the correct "matured" explanation suitable for that particular subject in question..........I m sure my explanation will be accepted by one and all....
4. .I STILL MAINTAIN THIS POSITION FOR THE GOOD OF ALL...........
5. and of course those who still think that Rumi was speaking Literally are GHADEDA KHOJAS of MSMS times!!!!!! Unqoute >
Let us take his first statement. Is he a Federal President,or a President of Tariqa Board, one of the topmost waezins or a scholar at IIS? Even if he is, so what? Is he proud of his position or knowledge? Taking his second and the third statements clearly shows that he has a dictatorial mind, and considers himself to be the only matured person. And see his egoism and immatured self confidence in his statement: ' .I m sure my explanation will be accepted by one and all....'
His fourth statement,' I STILL MAINTAIN THIS POSITION FOR THE GOOD OF ALL. Just look at the bold words.
And what about his fifth statement? Reread it 3 to 4 times. He is full of contempt for all the entire Khojas Ismailis who differ from his point of view.Doesn't he look like a magalomanic or an egotist?
Atleast he looses any respect from me even if he, being devoid of humility, is a federal president.
May Maula grant him humility, without which, in my opinion, he will not be respected.
On the other hand, look at Kmaherali who too differs from others on this topic, but he is suave and exhibits humility in all of his messages.
.
<Quote: "1. If u knew who I was u wud have never talked to me in this way........
2. I sincerely wish that u keep your mouth shut ........
3. ........ which may not be the correct "matured" explanation suitable for that particular subject in question..........I m sure my explanation will be accepted by one and all....
4. .I STILL MAINTAIN THIS POSITION FOR THE GOOD OF ALL...........
5. and of course those who still think that Rumi was speaking Literally are GHADEDA KHOJAS of MSMS times!!!!!! Unqoute >
Let us take his first statement. Is he a Federal President,or a President of Tariqa Board, one of the topmost waezins or a scholar at IIS? Even if he is, so what? Is he proud of his position or knowledge? Taking his second and the third statements clearly shows that he has a dictatorial mind, and considers himself to be the only matured person. And see his egoism and immatured self confidence in his statement: ' .I m sure my explanation will be accepted by one and all....'
His fourth statement,' I STILL MAINTAIN THIS POSITION FOR THE GOOD OF ALL. Just look at the bold words.
And what about his fifth statement? Reread it 3 to 4 times. He is full of contempt for all the entire Khojas Ismailis who differ from his point of view.Doesn't he look like a magalomanic or an egotist?
Atleast he looses any respect from me even if he, being devoid of humility, is a federal president.
May Maula grant him humility, without which, in my opinion, he will not be respected.
On the other hand, look at Kmaherali who too differs from others on this topic, but he is suave and exhibits humility in all of his messages.
.
Do not be contempteous to
The khojas of ISMS time,
May you be knowledge millionire
But don't reegard them as a dime.
Some of them be sure, turn out to be,
The shepherd of the Moses time.
Abundance knowledge though he possesed,
Azazil did not bow
The truth of real love and sacrifice,
He did not know.
The khojas of ISMS time,
May you be knowledge millionire
But don't reegard them as a dime.
Some of them be sure, turn out to be,
The shepherd of the Moses time.
Abundance knowledge though he possesed,
Azazil did not bow
The truth of real love and sacrifice,
He did not know.
I will begin appropriately with the verse of Saloko Nano.
satgur kahere: jutthaa marnnaa to sab jug mare
ane saachaa na mare koi
aa gur geenaane je mare
teese bohor marann na hoy re.....................17
The True Guide says: All creatures can die false(repeated) deaths but not all of them die real deaths. Whoever dies after knowing the True Guide(or after getting knowledge and enlightenment from the True Guide), will not have to die again and again.
I would interpret the above verse as I did interpret the Quranic verses about life and death. Repeated death and life is vacillation between faith and knowledge on the one hand and doubt and ignorance on the other. Until a person finds spiritual enlightenment he will always vacillate between the two. Yes Hafiz was enlightened and he could see life from that perspective. The others will either vacillate between life and death or be in permanent death until they are revived by the purifying 'hellfire' after death.
Islamic ideal of life is to experience paradise all the time. "The man or woman who lives life completely turned toward the Source of Love, affirming Love with every breath, will encounter Paradise everywhere..."(Lex Hixon interpretation of 4:116-125). That is, there is no difference from this life and the hereafter. This finds resonance in MHI's statement: "Since all that we see and do resonates on the faith, the aesthetics of the environment we build and the quality of the social interactions that take place within those environments, reverberate on our spiritual life."
When a person dies as condemned (as per ISMS), he is consumed with regret that he did not experience paradise and abused his life. That is hell.
satgur kahere: jutthaa marnnaa to sab jug mare
ane saachaa na mare koi
aa gur geenaane je mare
teese bohor marann na hoy re.....................17
The True Guide says: All creatures can die false(repeated) deaths but not all of them die real deaths. Whoever dies after knowing the True Guide(or after getting knowledge and enlightenment from the True Guide), will not have to die again and again.
I would interpret the above verse as I did interpret the Quranic verses about life and death. Repeated death and life is vacillation between faith and knowledge on the one hand and doubt and ignorance on the other. Until a person finds spiritual enlightenment he will always vacillate between the two. Yes Hafiz was enlightened and he could see life from that perspective. The others will either vacillate between life and death or be in permanent death until they are revived by the purifying 'hellfire' after death.
Islamic ideal of life is to experience paradise all the time. "The man or woman who lives life completely turned toward the Source of Love, affirming Love with every breath, will encounter Paradise everywhere..."(Lex Hixon interpretation of 4:116-125). That is, there is no difference from this life and the hereafter. This finds resonance in MHI's statement: "Since all that we see and do resonates on the faith, the aesthetics of the environment we build and the quality of the social interactions that take place within those environments, reverberate on our spiritual life."
When a person dies as condemned (as per ISMS), he is consumed with regret that he did not experience paradise and abused his life. That is hell.
yaaaahoooo wrote:kasamali wrote:You are entitled to have your own interpretation. As you are aware that Farmans also can be interpreted in more than one ways. That is why others too are entitled to their opinions.
Wow you took away my words..........
Exactly everybody is entitled to his interpretation.............
But I have to indeed add that inorder to b a sufi or an haqiqati we dont have to take things literally .......we have to go beyond the exoteric or the outer meanings........thats SATPANTH or ISMAILISM......
In this same farman of MSMS in dar es salaaam 1899 he say...."amaaara farmaan tamaara dil maa dhad bese che ke nahee.....ame mushkil samajee ae che.....Sabab ae che ke ame beja khayaal maa kaheye che ane tame beeja khayaaal maa samjo cho......"
The Farman you quoted above is not in reference to the two Farmans I gave. Yes, there is such a Farman and I read it some time ago, but please give proper reference as to the date of that Farman so that it can be discussed as to in what reference that Farman was made. The two Farmans I gave in my message were dated 2-11-1903 and 15-10-1903 , and on those dates the Farman you quoted was not made. So please give proper reference. I am sure, it was made in adifferent context and not on rebirth topic.
Views From Other Traditions
The idea of life as knowledge and death as ignorance finds expression in the following quote from the Hindu tradition and is worthy of reflection.
“You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say that there are no stars in the heavens during the day? Because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.”
-Sri Ramakrishna
The notion of paradise on the path of Siratul Mustaqueem finds resonance in the following quotes from the Christian tradition. Paradise is always there for us if we are receptive to it!
“We can walk without fear, full of hope and courage and strength to do His will, waiting for the endless good which He is always giving as fast as He can get us able to take it in.”
-George McDonald
The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
-Luke 10:2
“You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say that there are no stars in the heavens during the day? Because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.”
-Sri Ramakrishna
The notion of paradise on the path of Siratul Mustaqueem finds resonance in the following quotes from the Christian tradition. Paradise is always there for us if we are receptive to it!
“We can walk without fear, full of hope and courage and strength to do His will, waiting for the endless good which He is always giving as fast as He can get us able to take it in.”
-George McDonald
The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
-Luke 10:2
Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Views From Other Traditions
kmaherali wrote:The idea of life as knowledge and death as ignorance finds expression in the following quote from the Hindu tradition and is worthy of reflection.
“You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say that there are no stars in the heavens during the day? Because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.”
-Sri Ramakrishna
The notion of paradise on the path of Siratul Mustaqueem finds resonance in the following quote from the Christian tradition. Paradise is always there for us if we are receptive to it!
“We can walk without fear, full of hope and courage and strength to do His will, waiting for the endless good which He is always giving as fast as He can get us able to take it in.”
-George McDonald
As far as I know the proponents of rebirth do not dispute the above quoted parts of yours. Obviously, those who have the knowledge of and have experienced real spirituality, for them there is always brightness -- wether they believe in rebirth or not.
yaaaahoooo wrote:WOW
ten references from the Quran to show rebirth and reincarnation !!!!
1)first read out the complete ayaat of the sura......
2) secondly try to read the preceding and succedding 5 ayaats in the same sura to gather in what context the whole ayaat is .........
3)thirdly try to think of a meaning like "resurrection on the final day of judgement " for the word and " will again bring you to life, and again
to Him will you return" .
Now how many ayaats are you left with..........????
and we discuss further......for sure.....
As many learned peple are aware that almost every Ayat of Quran can be interpreted in many different ways, and your's and mine interpretations are only two of the many such interpretations. Even the word Qiyamat can be interpreted in atleast more than a couple of ways.
I have gone through some of the Holy Qurans translated in Urdu, Gujarati and Marathi by some Sunni scholars. In the preface, they have included notes similar to: "Based on Holy Quran, The foundations of Shites( Shias) has no basis at all. There is not a single word of Ali in the entire Quran let alone a single verse".
On the other hand, wise and esoteric scholars maintain that each and every Ayat is an indicative of Imamat of Ali.
So you can see that quite opposites interpretations of the same Holy Quran is also made possible by scholars.
KMaherali,
I must admit that I still do not understand your position.
And in that...I cannot validly discuss with you. You have kindly quoted from different sources....but I still dont coherently understand your position on rebirth. Sorry, but i just havent been able to follow your trend of thought properly. My bad.
Pls start form the top and expand. Create a new thread if you have to. I greatly value your knowledge and want a chance to consider your position on this issue.
Also..try to connect your view to the concept of evolution of the soul and eventuall union with Allah. This way I can get a clear picture.
Thank you.
Ya Ali Madad
I must admit that I still do not understand your position.
And in that...I cannot validly discuss with you. You have kindly quoted from different sources....but I still dont coherently understand your position on rebirth. Sorry, but i just havent been able to follow your trend of thought properly. My bad.
Pls start form the top and expand. Create a new thread if you have to. I greatly value your knowledge and want a chance to consider your position on this issue.
Also..try to connect your view to the concept of evolution of the soul and eventuall union with Allah. This way I can get a clear picture.
Thank you.
Ya Ali Madad
Re: Views From Other Traditions
There is a difference - from the perspective of knowledge and enlightenment rebirth as a believe does not exist anymore, in other words, it is a product of ignorance! Those like Hafiz, Trikurral and others from the higher stand point have considered it as a folly. The following quote from Masoor gives a different spin on this.alimack wrote:As far as I know the proponents of rebirth do not dispute the above quoted parts of yours. Obviously, those who have the knowledge of and have experienced real spirituality, for them there is always brightness -- wether they believe in rebirth or not.
"Remembrance is not remembered. I do not remember whether or not God remembered me in the past; he remembers me now. God does not remember whether I remembered him in the past; I remember him now. His remembrance is my remembrance, and mine is his. Can two beings who remember one another not be in union?"
-Hallaj: Tawasin
YAMkandani wrote:KMaherali,
I must admit that I still do not understand your position.
And in that...I cannot validly discuss with you. You have kindly quoted from different sources....but I still dont coherently understand your position on rebirth. Sorry, but i just havent been able to follow your trend of thought properly. My bad.
Pls start form the top and expand. Create a new thread if you have to. I greatly value your knowledge and want a chance to consider your position on this issue.
Also..try to connect your view to the concept of evolution of the soul and eventuall union with Allah. This way I can get a clear picture.
Thank you.
Ya Ali Madad
I would like to respond from the premise of being a murid of the Imam. In our tradition we always align our ideas with the ideas of the Imam. From that perspective, as I have alluded to in one of my previous posts, Imam's view from my interpretation of his statements is quite clear - that there is no physical rebirth. Even the Farmans that refer to avatar and rebirth are means towards an ethical direction and not an expression of reality or a doctrine. In fact all doctrines are tentative and comprise the Sharia. From the Haqiqati standpoint, they may have no meaning what so ever.
If we accept physical rebirth as hell ( for those who do not attain the highest level during this life), then our existence is really hell because we have not purified ourselves and that paradise is not possible here and is only available for a few enlightened ones! This conflicts with Islamic view of life in which every moment is paradise. If you are not enjoying paradise then you are living in ignorance.
I have quoted various poets to emphasize different ways of looking at this issue and to confirm my view. This subject deals with an issue of hereafter which by definition is beyond space/time and causality. Therefore human language has it's limitation in terms of articulating this doctrine. However we may get some clues from advanced souls who have transcended space/time/causality and who have expressed their insight through poetry. As Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has stated: "Poetry is the voice of God speaking through the lips of man".
In particular, ISMS by way of alluding to Hafiz's poetry in the following statement confirms that this existence has a great purpose and is heavenly and is not meant to be hell.
"The music and joy of his verses, the sincerity of his conviction that life is a great, noble and splendid experience – every minute of which is to be treasured as the greatest of God's gifts – these surely are the qualities we will find in page after page and verse after verse of his work."
On the issue of the evolution of souls, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah states in his memoirs:
"Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us. Islam acknowledges the existence of angels, of great souls who have developed themselves to the highest possible planes of the human soul and higher, and who are centres of the forces which are scattered throughout the Universe."
Men and women are immensely more advanced than other creatures. This suggests that evolution in Darwinian sense may not apply. According to recent research, Darwin's theory does not explain huge gaps between species. It may explain evolution within species.
At birth each human being is given equal capacity to evolve spiritually and some make use of that potential and develop to the highest possible levels. Others do not utilize that potential and therefore experience the hell of regret upon death
Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you KMaherali.
I will now pose some questions regarding you belief so I can learn more about it.
1. Is the human soul pre-existent?
Nasir Tusi says it is not pre-existent, but it is post-existent. Ismaili Neoplatonism says soul is pre-existent and post-existent.
What is your view? What was my soul doing before my earthly life?
2. If I do not acheive fanafillah during my earthly lifetime, upon my death. what will happen to my soul?
a) I will rebirth physically?
b) I will go to heaven/hell based on my good vs bad deeds?
3. We agree there are varying levels of spirituality. If I acheive a higher level of spiritually in this life...what happens to my soul in the hereafter?
a) rebrith?
b) heaven (a level corresponding to my spirituality)?
c) fanafillah (as a grace from God)?
4. When the Ginans mention 8,400,000 rebirths through differnt forms of life...how do you NOT connect that with actual rebirth?
NOTE: I prefer the term rebirth instead of reincarnation. There are so many different reincarnation theories out there. In my opinion, rebirth is the same as a manifestation. IE. My human body during my earthly life is the terrestrial mazhar (locus of manifestation) of my soul. Similarly, I also possess an astral or imaginal body in the World of Imagination, a Personal Lord-Archetype in the World of Lordship. My soul or my ibdai body belongs in the World of Divinity (Pleroma of Intelligences).
Do you understand my train of thought? I dont see how rebirth is in contrast with such a philosophy.
I will now pose some questions regarding you belief so I can learn more about it.
1. Is the human soul pre-existent?
Nasir Tusi says it is not pre-existent, but it is post-existent. Ismaili Neoplatonism says soul is pre-existent and post-existent.
What is your view? What was my soul doing before my earthly life?
2. If I do not acheive fanafillah during my earthly lifetime, upon my death. what will happen to my soul?
a) I will rebirth physically?
b) I will go to heaven/hell based on my good vs bad deeds?
3. We agree there are varying levels of spirituality. If I acheive a higher level of spiritually in this life...what happens to my soul in the hereafter?
a) rebrith?
b) heaven (a level corresponding to my spirituality)?
c) fanafillah (as a grace from God)?
4. When the Ginans mention 8,400,000 rebirths through differnt forms of life...how do you NOT connect that with actual rebirth?
NOTE: I prefer the term rebirth instead of reincarnation. There are so many different reincarnation theories out there. In my opinion, rebirth is the same as a manifestation. IE. My human body during my earthly life is the terrestrial mazhar (locus of manifestation) of my soul. Similarly, I also possess an astral or imaginal body in the World of Imagination, a Personal Lord-Archetype in the World of Lordship. My soul or my ibdai body belongs in the World of Divinity (Pleroma of Intelligences).
Do you understand my train of thought? I dont see how rebirth is in contrast with such a philosophy.
At the outset, I would like to reiterate that we are really dealing with issues that transcend our normal perception and hence any philosophical views or standpoints that we may adopt are only tentative and at best are only pointers to reality. We must strive to experience these states to arrive at certainty. In the interim we would be well advised to have faith in trusted authorities.
The above notwithstanding, the following are my responses.
Imam's Farmans are quite clear on this and I am bound by them. MHI has stated on numerous occassions that our soul is eternal. It has always been and will always be. Before my earthly existence it was united with the Spirit. Upon birth or conception it became a spark or indivividual soul.
No physical rebirth. There may be a requirement to serve higher realms of existence as angels. Otherwise fanafillah after purification.
Lakh chorasi is an allegorical way of saying that there are many cycles between faith/knowledge on the one hand and doubt/ignorance on the other. Upon spiritual enlightenment you are freed from them as stated by Pir Sadardeen as: "Lakh chorasi na bandh chhoraaviya" - meaning "has freed me from clutches of 8400000.
Daily Christian Wisdom
Let me tell you this: Faith comes and goes. But if it is presumptuous to think that faith will stay forever, it is just as presumptuous to think that unbelief will.
-Flannery O'Connor
It could also be a symbolic way of expressing relative truths and moving from one to another as stated by Mansoor in the verse:
Relative truths are many
Abolute truth is only one
Whatever is: is Ya Ali
Who is the spiritual Sun
Rebirth is a possiblity but not in physical sense. It is more a shift of awareness from one realm to another.
The above notwithstanding, the following are my responses.
kandani wrote:1. Is the human soul pre-existent?
Nasir Tusi says it is not pre-existent, but it is post-existent. Ismaili Neoplatonism says soul is pre-existent and post-existentWhat is your view? What was my soul doing before my earthly life?
Imam's Farmans are quite clear on this and I am bound by them. MHI has stated on numerous occassions that our soul is eternal. It has always been and will always be. Before my earthly existence it was united with the Spirit. Upon birth or conception it became a spark or indivividual soul.
No, I will not rebirth physically. If I did not achieve fanafillah during my life time, I will at first be consumed with regret and eventually be 'purified' and united with Allah.kandani wrote: 2. If I do not acheive fanafillah during my earthly lifetime, upon my death. what will happen to my soul?
a) I will rebirth physically?
b) I will go to heaven/hell based on my good vs bad deeds?
kandani wrote: 3. We agree there are varying levels of spirituality. If I acheive a higher level of spiritually in this life...what happens to my soul in the hereafter?
a) rebrith?
b) heaven (a level corresponding to my spirituality)?
c) fanafillah (as a grace from God)?
No physical rebirth. There may be a requirement to serve higher realms of existence as angels. Otherwise fanafillah after purification.
LAKH CHORASI FERASkandani wrote: 4. When the Ginans mention 8,400,000 rebirths through differnt forms of life...how do you NOT connect that with actual rebirth?
Lakh chorasi is an allegorical way of saying that there are many cycles between faith/knowledge on the one hand and doubt/ignorance on the other. Upon spiritual enlightenment you are freed from them as stated by Pir Sadardeen as: "Lakh chorasi na bandh chhoraaviya" - meaning "has freed me from clutches of 8400000.
Daily Christian Wisdom
Let me tell you this: Faith comes and goes. But if it is presumptuous to think that faith will stay forever, it is just as presumptuous to think that unbelief will.
-Flannery O'Connor
It could also be a symbolic way of expressing relative truths and moving from one to another as stated by Mansoor in the verse:
Relative truths are many
Abolute truth is only one
Whatever is: is Ya Ali
Who is the spiritual Sun
I am in agreement with this view. Our ginans do allude to us having astral bodies and related astral nervous system through which spiritual enlightenment is expressed or explained.kandani wrote: NOTE: I prefer the term rebirth instead of reincarnation. There are so many different reincarnation theories out there. In my opinion, rebirth is the same as a manifestation. IE. My human body during my earthly life is the terrestrial mazhar (locus of manifestation) of my soul. Similarly, I also possess an astral or imaginal body in the World of Imagination, a Personal Lord-Archetype in the World of Lordship. My soul or my ibdai body belongs in the World of Divinity (Pleroma of Intelligences).
Do you understand my train of thought? I dont see how rebirth is in contrast with such a philosophy.
Rebirth is a possiblity but not in physical sense. It is more a shift of awareness from one realm to another.
Last edited by kmaherali on Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Let us not forget that in the real world there are ample proofs sustaining the therory of reincarnation. There are medical proofs, scientic studies of various cases which can only be explained as reincarnation such as kids who spontaneously and fluently speak languages that are dead since centuries.
Also the case of that little girl amed Shanti Devi who described how she gave birth in her past life, the names of her relatives, the village where she lived and then she guided a team of scientists who were studying the case to that village where she never went before, digging under a tree for her hidden bangles etc... The case of Shanti Devi was published in the Read and Know series by the Ismailia Association for Africa at one point.
So while everyones opinion and interpretation is welcomed, let us not discount the available evidence. The field of reincarnation is an exceptional field of study... and not at all in contradiction with our faith.
The Ummul Kitab, farmans of Imam Muhammad Baqir, also accepts the formulation of reincarnation as is found in subsequent Ismailis writting, in particular in ginan under the concept of "fera"
If I was to reject the idea of reincarnation, I would be promoting the idea that God has no justice. We all have heard of twins baby born at the same time, one looks normal, smile for few hours and dies. His twin born handicaped, in extreme pain dies at the same moment. If people are not riping the fruits of their past lives in this life, God has made an injustice on all of humanity.
I am not talking about the proofs of reincarnations in all the religious books because I know that there will always be people that will interpret diffently and this right of each is sacrosaint but even outside the realm of faith there are evidences and these can not easily be brushed off like we can with interpreting the verses of such and such book...
Nagib
Also the case of that little girl amed Shanti Devi who described how she gave birth in her past life, the names of her relatives, the village where she lived and then she guided a team of scientists who were studying the case to that village where she never went before, digging under a tree for her hidden bangles etc... The case of Shanti Devi was published in the Read and Know series by the Ismailia Association for Africa at one point.
So while everyones opinion and interpretation is welcomed, let us not discount the available evidence. The field of reincarnation is an exceptional field of study... and not at all in contradiction with our faith.
The Ummul Kitab, farmans of Imam Muhammad Baqir, also accepts the formulation of reincarnation as is found in subsequent Ismailis writting, in particular in ginan under the concept of "fera"
If I was to reject the idea of reincarnation, I would be promoting the idea that God has no justice. We all have heard of twins baby born at the same time, one looks normal, smile for few hours and dies. His twin born handicaped, in extreme pain dies at the same moment. If people are not riping the fruits of their past lives in this life, God has made an injustice on all of humanity.
I am not talking about the proofs of reincarnations in all the religious books because I know that there will always be people that will interpret diffently and this right of each is sacrosaint but even outside the realm of faith there are evidences and these can not easily be brushed off like we can with interpreting the verses of such and such book...
Nagib
Reincarnation
The cases that you have alluded to are rare indeed. How many of us can remember our past? How many of us can remember our past languages? There could be other factors besides reincarnation. What about these individuals getting visions or dreams? We hear about children of exceptional abilities in all walks of life.
Not everything that is being investigated and studied is necessarily of interest to us nor is it beneficial for our general well being. For example, I was just reading last week that there is someone out there who is promoting his theory of how to immortalize our lives in a physical sense by engineering our cells! This is absolutely ridiculous and crazy yet he is mastering sufficient interest. After all who would not want to live indefinitely!
So we have many ideas and experiments out there which may sound romantic but have no value to us except to arouse empty curiosity and speculation.Not all scientific research is good for us. Only that which promotes our well being and which serves our broader philosophical outlook should be encouraged and promoted.
In situations such as these, especially when they involve matters that transcend space and time, I think it is important to get cues from the guidance of the Imam. As I have explained in my earlier post, Imam's view (as I interpret it) does not support reincarnation.
Not everything that is being investigated and studied is necessarily of interest to us nor is it beneficial for our general well being. For example, I was just reading last week that there is someone out there who is promoting his theory of how to immortalize our lives in a physical sense by engineering our cells! This is absolutely ridiculous and crazy yet he is mastering sufficient interest. After all who would not want to live indefinitely!
So we have many ideas and experiments out there which may sound romantic but have no value to us except to arouse empty curiosity and speculation.Not all scientific research is good for us. Only that which promotes our well being and which serves our broader philosophical outlook should be encouraged and promoted.
In situations such as these, especially when they involve matters that transcend space and time, I think it is important to get cues from the guidance of the Imam. As I have explained in my earlier post, Imam's view (as I interpret it) does not support reincarnation.
Life and Death in Islam
"He who remembers his Lord and he who does not are like the living and dead".
-Muhammad
The above quote of Prophet Muhammad captures the essence of life and death in Islam. On the other hand, the following anecdote which is construed as a joke conveys the antithesis of Islamic view of life.
1/24/05
How Do You Get To Heaven?
"If I sold my house and my car, had a big garage sale, and gave all my money to the church, would that get me into heaven?" I asked the children in my Sunday school class.
"NO!" the children all answered.
"If I cleaned the church every day, mowed the yard, and kept everything neat and tidy, would that get me into heaven?"
Again the answer was, "NO!"
"Well, then, if I was kind to animals and gave candy to all the children and loved my wife, would that get me into heaven?" I asked them again.
Once more they all answered, "NO!"
"Well," I continued, thinking they were a good bit more theologically sophisticated than I had given them credit for, "then how can I get into heaven?"
A five-year-old boy shouted out, "You gotta be dead!"
-Muhammad
The above quote of Prophet Muhammad captures the essence of life and death in Islam. On the other hand, the following anecdote which is construed as a joke conveys the antithesis of Islamic view of life.
1/24/05
How Do You Get To Heaven?
"If I sold my house and my car, had a big garage sale, and gave all my money to the church, would that get me into heaven?" I asked the children in my Sunday school class.
"NO!" the children all answered.
"If I cleaned the church every day, mowed the yard, and kept everything neat and tidy, would that get me into heaven?"
Again the answer was, "NO!"
"Well, then, if I was kind to animals and gave candy to all the children and loved my wife, would that get me into heaven?" I asked them again.
Once more they all answered, "NO!"
"Well," I continued, thinking they were a good bit more theologically sophisticated than I had given them credit for, "then how can I get into heaven?"
A five-year-old boy shouted out, "You gotta be dead!"
Re: Life and Death in Islam
This is a magnificent time for awareness of our potential as human beings, as a society and as members of this planet. The Indian sage Yogananda is quoted as saying "We are the masters of each moment. And renewal is a choice of ech of us can make each new season, each new week, with each new day, and with every hour. Every moment is a chance of renewal, rejuvenation & rebirth."
~~~~~~~~~~ Deepak Chopra
~~~~~~~~~~ Deepak Chopra
Quotes on Rebirth and Awakening
Quotes on non physical rebirth and awakening.
To exalt oneself is to claim partnership with God.
Unless you have died and become living through Him,
you are an enemy seeking to hold the power.
But when you have come to live through God,
that which you have become is in truth He:
it is no longer copartnership, but absolute Unity.
-[IV, 2765-2767]
From Jewels of Remembrance, by Rumi, selected and translated by Camille and Kabir Helminski, © 1996
***
Truly every new idea is a violation of some older idea; as the awakening of tomorrow is a violation of today's slumber. As long as man continues to evolve, in other words, to separate himself from chaos, and to express himself in a higher form, he must always shatter something. In shattering, he disobeys: in breaking, he creates.
--Jeanne de Vietinghoff
***
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains it original dimension. --Oliver Wendell Holmes
***
Realize that the journey to the center takes place within your own mind.
-Matthew Flickstein, Journey to the Center
***
We are not built for ourselves, but for God. Not for service for God, but for God.
-Oswald Chambers
***
Not to be reached by traveling is the end of the world,
Yet there is no release from sorrow
Unless you reach the end of the world.
The one who is wise and lives a loving life
Begins to know the world. That one will go to the world’s end.
And then he will neither long for this world
Nor for any world.
-Anguttara Nikaya
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000.
***
The holy disciple who has followed the right road sees nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded, and disinterested.
-Buddha
To exalt oneself is to claim partnership with God.
Unless you have died and become living through Him,
you are an enemy seeking to hold the power.
But when you have come to live through God,
that which you have become is in truth He:
it is no longer copartnership, but absolute Unity.
-[IV, 2765-2767]
From Jewels of Remembrance, by Rumi, selected and translated by Camille and Kabir Helminski, © 1996
***
Truly every new idea is a violation of some older idea; as the awakening of tomorrow is a violation of today's slumber. As long as man continues to evolve, in other words, to separate himself from chaos, and to express himself in a higher form, he must always shatter something. In shattering, he disobeys: in breaking, he creates.
--Jeanne de Vietinghoff
***
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains it original dimension. --Oliver Wendell Holmes
***
Realize that the journey to the center takes place within your own mind.
-Matthew Flickstein, Journey to the Center
***
We are not built for ourselves, but for God. Not for service for God, but for God.
-Oswald Chambers
***
Not to be reached by traveling is the end of the world,
Yet there is no release from sorrow
Unless you reach the end of the world.
The one who is wise and lives a loving life
Begins to know the world. That one will go to the world’s end.
And then he will neither long for this world
Nor for any world.
-Anguttara Nikaya
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000.
***
The holy disciple who has followed the right road sees nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded, and disinterested.
-Buddha
Pluralism about Rebirth or Awakening
The Self cannot be known through study
Of the scriptures, nor through the intellect,
Nor through hearing learned discourses.
The Self can be attained only by those
Whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them
Does the Self reveal himself.
-Katha Upanishad
Excerpted from The Upanishads, translated by Eknath Easwaran,
Subhuti, does it occur to you that I believe that through me living beings are led to liberation? Never think that way, Subhuti. Why? Because there is no separate being to lead to liberation. If I were to think there was, I would be caught in the notion of a self or a person or a life span.
Subhuti, what I call a self is essentially not a self in the way that an ordinary person thinks of it. But neither do I think of anyone as an ordinary person. However, knowing the essence, I can use the name--ordinary person.
-Diamond Sutra
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000.
Of the scriptures, nor through the intellect,
Nor through hearing learned discourses.
The Self can be attained only by those
Whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them
Does the Self reveal himself.
-Katha Upanishad
Excerpted from The Upanishads, translated by Eknath Easwaran,
Subhuti, does it occur to you that I believe that through me living beings are led to liberation? Never think that way, Subhuti. Why? Because there is no separate being to lead to liberation. If I were to think there was, I would be caught in the notion of a self or a person or a life span.
Subhuti, what I call a self is essentially not a self in the way that an ordinary person thinks of it. But neither do I think of anyone as an ordinary person. However, knowing the essence, I can use the name--ordinary person.
-Diamond Sutra
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000.
Quotes on Rebirth Awakening
To be united with the Lord of Love
Is to be freed from all conditioning.
This is the state of Self-realization,
Far beyond the reach of words and thoughts.
To be united with the Lord of Love,
Imperishable, changeless, beyond cause
And effect, is to find infinite joy.
Brahman is beyond all duality,
Beyond the reach of thinker and of thought.
-Tejabindu Upanishad
Excerpted from The Upanishads, translated by Eknath Easwaran, copyright 1987.
***
The one who is very attached to the cave of the body, that one finds detachment very difficult. Those who constantly crave for pleasure are hard to liberate and certainly cannot be liberated by others, only by themselves. Sometimes it is only death that brings a realization of endings, and then the sensual person, deeply immersed in the body, will shout: "What will happen to me after death?"
The way toward liberation is to train yourself to live in the present without any wanting to become anything. Give up becoming this or that, live without cravings, and experience this present moment with full attention. Then you will not cringe at death nor seek for repeated birth.
-Sutta Nipata
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000
***
If you want to be a true doer of divine works, your first aim must be to be totally free from all desire and self-regarding ego. All your life must be an offering and a sacrifice to the Supreme; your only object in action shall be to serve, to receive, to fulfill, to become a manifesting instrument of the Divine Shakti in her works. You must grow in the divine consciousness till there is no difference between your will and hers, no motive except her impulsion in you, no action that is not her conscious action in you and through you.
-Sri Aurobindo
From "Teachings of the Hindu Mystics,"
Is to be freed from all conditioning.
This is the state of Self-realization,
Far beyond the reach of words and thoughts.
To be united with the Lord of Love,
Imperishable, changeless, beyond cause
And effect, is to find infinite joy.
Brahman is beyond all duality,
Beyond the reach of thinker and of thought.
-Tejabindu Upanishad
Excerpted from The Upanishads, translated by Eknath Easwaran, copyright 1987.
***
The one who is very attached to the cave of the body, that one finds detachment very difficult. Those who constantly crave for pleasure are hard to liberate and certainly cannot be liberated by others, only by themselves. Sometimes it is only death that brings a realization of endings, and then the sensual person, deeply immersed in the body, will shout: "What will happen to me after death?"
The way toward liberation is to train yourself to live in the present without any wanting to become anything. Give up becoming this or that, live without cravings, and experience this present moment with full attention. Then you will not cringe at death nor seek for repeated birth.
-Sutta Nipata
From "Buddha Speaks," edited by Anne Bancroft, 2000
***
If you want to be a true doer of divine works, your first aim must be to be totally free from all desire and self-regarding ego. All your life must be an offering and a sacrifice to the Supreme; your only object in action shall be to serve, to receive, to fulfill, to become a manifesting instrument of the Divine Shakti in her works. You must grow in the divine consciousness till there is no difference between your will and hers, no motive except her impulsion in you, no action that is not her conscious action in you and through you.
-Sri Aurobindo
From "Teachings of the Hindu Mystics,"