SHIA IN QURAN AND HADITH

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:59 pm

Aghakhani,
Can you provide me the date,year,and country where HI made 1900 yrs
Farman. I shall find myself as Admin. is not allowing complete Farman.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:27 pm

There is no way i will let anyone post a farman completely here. Do not even try!

Admin,
Mazhar,

I will not post it here as per my own policy but I will post the names of place, country and date!

It is not just 1900 years but thousands of years!

Kbhai,

Mazhar and I was talking about the word Shia.

I know that our "Satpanth" religion is not only 1400, 1900 hundreds old but it is coming since 'AAD UNAD" since the day of creation

એજી, આદ ઉનાદ થી હી પંથ સાચો,
હી પંથે ચાલી નહિ કોઈ વળીયો પાછો.

EJI AAD UNAAD THI HI PANTH SACHO,
HI PANTHE CHALI NAHI KOI VALIO PACHHO.
TRANSLATION

O brother, this religion (Satpanth/Ismaili) is true before the creation of universe,
no body had returned/disappointed (if the followers stayed on this shiratan mustakim) religion. ****

Also:-
I read a book name 'TARIKHHUSHIA" in which author gives some sura's name and ayats references from Quran-E-Sharif, in which he emphasizes that Shia sect is not born after the death Prophet Mohammad(S.A..) or Hazarat Ali(S.A.) but Shia sect was already there before them.

According the author Shia sect was there during the time of Hazarat Noah and Prophet Moses he gives some references from Hadish and from Quran, follows are some examples:-

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)" (Quran 37:83)

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy" (Quran 28:15)

Read the above references which has been taken from Quran and its clearly state the word Shia!!!! Now, my question does Shia sect was there that time? I mean during Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses time? We believe that Shia sect arisen after the death of Prophet Mohammad when the question came out whom to choose as a successor( caliph) of Mohammad? This group used to called as 'SHIANE ALI" and from them majority peoples were supporting to H. Ali (s.a.)

Our current Imam also quoted many times in his Farmans that Shia tradition is almost 1900 years old and my murid always receiving hidayats from their Imam since 19 hundred years (Note:- This is not the exact words and sentences as per farman). I will check it out tonight.

**** The Gujarati transliteration and English meaning of above ginanic verses made by my shelf.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:37 am

agakhani wrote:Kbhai,

Mazhar and I was talking about the word Shia.

Abhai,
The word Shia means followers or members. Therefore there would have been Shia even at the time of Lord Krishna. Think about the Gopees.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:11 pm

Abhai,
The word Shia means followers or members. Therefore there would have been Shia even at the time of Lord Krishna. Think about the Gopees.

Kbhai & Mazhar

It seems very logical but what would you say when current Mowlana Hazar Imam is saying in his own two farmans that?:!!

Note:- Not full text of those farmans but just one sentence has taken interesting readers can read full farmans, the date and place mentioned below:-

1, " THE IMANS OF MY JAMATS (HELPED) THEM TO PASS 1900 YEARS !!!"

"આ ઈમાને ઇતિહાસના 1900 વર્ષમાંથી જમાતોને પસાર કરી છે "
Date: 9/7/1963
Place: NAIROBI.

2, And because of this imans our jamats has able to survived since 1900 years!

""આ ઈમાન થકી જ આપની જમાત 1900 વરસ થયા જીવંત રહી છે. "

Date: 9/9/1963
Place: LIOPOLDVILLE.

Now only one question:
Were MHI's jamat (Ismaili) were there since 1900?,
if not then (not in one but in two different farmans) !!! why Mowlana Hazar Imam mentioned 1900 years for his jamats?

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:46 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10398

Posted: 26 Mar 2015 07:37 pm Post subject:

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agakhani wrote:
Kbhai,

Mazhar and I was talking about the word Shia.

Abhai,
The word Shia means followers or members. Therefore there would have been Shia even at the time of Lord Krishna. Think about the Gopees.

Kmaherali,
If shias were present at time of lord kirshan and GOPEES were around, please include me with Gopees, I am Gopala.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:11 pm

Mazhar,

What about those two farmans which I posted above?
Are these farmans also wrong? same like Krishna and his gopies as per your thinking!!

Post by **Admin** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:46 pm

There is a Farman where our Imam has used the words Shia of Ali and Shia of Muawya. Does anyone have the reference handy?

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:29 pm

agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2009
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 30 Mar 2015 08:11 am Post subject:

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Mazhar,

What about those two farmans which I posted above?
Are these farmans also wrong? same like Krishna and his gopies as per your thinking!!

Reply to Aghakhani,

I found and read that particular Farman where Imam mentioned 1900 yrs.
It can be typing mistake. I have seen many typing mistakes in Farmans typed during 60s and 70s and in other documents printed by Ismailia Associations at that time. May be haste, overlooked, proof reading or neglection. In 60s there wasn't smart computer technology available. But one thing is possible. At that time tape recording technology was available.
We have to find out weather Kenya Association tape recorded that Farman in 1963 and is available. Admin. can be helpful, they have resources and contacts. In one Farman, made at Peshawar on 23rd November, 1964, Imam said," In spiritual matters, I would like you to remember that the tradition of our jamaits goes back 1300 years......"
It is strange because last cycle of NATIQ and ASSAS started 1400+ years ago.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:01 pm

mazhar wrote:
I found and read that particular Farman where Imam mentioned 1900 yrs.

... Peshawar on 23rd November, 1964, Imam said," In spiritual matters, I would like you to remember that the tradition of our jamaits goes back 1300 years......".

The mistake is in the Peshawar transcript. There is a reason for it. When Hazar Imam said 1,900 years the translator of that time (kassamali) decided to translate with 1,300 years and as Imam said nothing, they thought Imam made a mistake and Kassamali's version was right.

I have heard and transcribed myself tapes of Farmans where Hazar Imam said 1,900 years, both in French farmans in Congo and in English Farmans in East Africa.

Admin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:13 am

mazhar wrote: It is strange because last cycle of NATIQ and ASSAS started 1400+ years ago.

Our faith is not based on the last cycle but goes back thousands of years. For example, our Ghat Paat ceremony used to be practised many thousand years ago.

Ginan: VEEMRAS KAREE GHATT THAAPEE-E
BY SAYYED IMAAM SHAH

ejee paa(n)ch paa(n)ddav ku(m)bh jal sreveeyaa
ane partaap ddhropadee saar
tene hare paap utaareeyaa, te ghattpaatt ne partaap..........6

The five Paandvas served the holy water of the vessels and Sati Ddhropadee did it perfectly through the remembrance of the Lord. The Lord reduced their sins due to participation in the "Ghatpaat" ceremony.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:17 am

I found and read that particular Farman where Imam mentioned 1900 yrs.
It can be typing mistake.

But in above two farmans 1900 years mentioned by Imam is cent percent true! it is not typical mistake. I checked it from 4 sources including in one waez. Yes there were followers of Imams before H. Ali not only this but there were imams also before H. Ali (s.a.)!!! You need to read history of our sect deeply : which I suggested you long time ago.

Brother Admin gives a solid proof:-

Code: Select all

The mistake is in the Peshawar transcript. There is a reason for it. When Hazar Imam said 1,900 years the translator of that time &#40;kassamali&#41; decided to translate with 1,300 years and as Imam said nothing, they thought Imam made a mistake and Kassamali's version was right. 

I have heard and transcribed myself tapes of Farmans where Hazar Imam said 1,900 years, both in French farmans in Congo and in English Farmans in East Africa.

It is strange that translator change it without knowing the history behind it.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:15 am

kmaherali wrote: For example, our Ghat Paat ceremony used to be practised many thousand years ago.

There is also the story of Tara Rani who was going to parorio late night meditation and gat Pat ceremonies were performed at her time. The discovery of this event changed the life of Raja Harischandra.... (Amar te ayo...)

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:04 pm

Admin

Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2966

Posted: 31 Mar 2015 11:01 am Post subject:

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mazhar wrote:

I found and read that particular Farman where Imam mentioned 1900 yrs.

... Peshawar on 23rd November, 1964, Imam said," In spiritual matters, I would like you to remember that the tradition of our jamaits goes back 1300 years......".

Admin. wrote,
The mistake is in the Peshawar transcript. There is a reason for it. When Hazar Imam said 1,900 years the translator of that time (kassamali) decided to translate with 1,300 years and as Imam said nothing, they thought Imam made a mistake and Kassamali's version was right.

I have heard and transcribed myself tapes of Farmans where Hazar Imam said 1,900 years, both in French farmans in Congo and in English Farmans in East Africa.

Reply to Admin.

Dear Nagib,
The Peshawar Farman in which Imam said 1300 yrs, I quoted from Precious Gems, published by Ismailia Association for Canada and not Pakistan, page # 9. Also same Farman is quoted in Kalam-e Imam -e Zaman, first edidion 2009, page # 128. Why you not corrected the mistake in first edition. In Karachi at time of Deedar, couple of times when translator made mistake, after tranlator finished, Imam at once called the translator near and corrected the mistake in translation and the person came to mike said sorry and corrected the mistake as Imam explained.
Do you expect Imam was not aware when translator said 1300 yrs instead of 1900 yrs.!

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:33 pm

mazhar wrote:

It is strange because last cycle of NATIQ and ASSAS started 1400+ years ago.
Reply by Kmaherali,
Our faith is not based on the last cycle but goes back thousands of years. For example, our Ghat Paat ceremony used to be practised many thousand years ago.

Reply to Kmaherali,

My question is about the last cycle of NATIQ ans ASSAS started 1400+ yrs ago and not ghat paat ceremony. Our basic faith is obedience of Allah, Rasul, and Imam of the time. Is there any mention of Natiq and Assas in our ginans. The philosophy of Natiq and Assas cycle started in Fatimid period. In all these cycles from Prophet Adam, is there any mention of Vishnu and Brahma in Arabic Literature?

Post by **Admin** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:22 pm

I have referred to tapes on Congo and East Africa. In the absence of tape from 1964, there is no choice from any person but to quote what ever is existing, which is what Ismailia Association for Canada did in re-publishing Precious Gem.

I would have done the same thing because if one work is changed in a book, we can not pretend that we have reproduced the book, we have to admit it is a new version of something which looks like that book..

Imam talks according to time, place and audience. That is why when a Farman is read, we have to say which was the place and date it was made and if to a special audience, like a Mijlas, it has to be said.

So 1,900 years, he said to some Jamat and he may have said 14 years to Vancouver Jamat and unless you know what 14 years symbolise, you will say Imam made mistake, he should have said 14 hundred years, right?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:25 pm

Off course it is quoted in ginans many times about gat pat
Eji pehla karta jug ma sona ne re pat
This mention about gatpat ceremony.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:33 pm

And off course the time of karta jug was hundred thousands before the Fatimi Era.
This is just ginan pop up in my mind in a break from job but yes I can provide many ginans which can prove Gatpat ceremony was there before Fatimi period.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Author Message
agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 01 Apr 2015 11:25 am Post subject:

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Off course it is quoted in ginans many times about gat pat
Eji pehla karta jug ma sona ne re pat
This mention about gatpat ceremony.

Reply to Aghakhani,

Dear Aghakhani,
My question is about mangoes and you answered about bananas.
Please read my quetion to Kmaherali on April 1,2015, I asked him about the new cycle of NATIQ and ASSAS stated 1400+ years ago. It was not about ghat paat. He jumped backward into karta yug and I am in 21st century. Oops!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:31 pm

My bad I was in lunch break didn't read your question properly.

As per my thinking every Natiq has Assas and since you wrote above that Natiq & Assas started 1400+ years ago but the fact is that were even before that:

Let start what your favorite dai says about Natiq and Assas?

Nasir Khushru's point of vies
Khusraw's view:

Universal Command
Universal Intellect ------ Natiq
Universal Soul ---------- Asas
Jadd --------------------- Imam
Fath --------------------- Hujjat
Khayal ------------------ Dai

Ginanic Ismaili views:

Natiq : Prophet
Assas : Pir

This time I do not want to go til Karta yug but let start after H. Adam (s.a.)

Adam was prophet : his son Sheth was Imam
Noah was prophet : His son Shem was Imam
Abraham was prophet: His son Ismail was Imam
Moses was prophet: His brother Aaron was Imam
Jesus was prophet: (?) Simon Peter was Imam
Muhammad was prophet Hazarat Ali was Imam

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:23 pm

mazhar wrote:My question is about the last cycle of NATIQ ans ASSAS started 1400+ yrs ago and not ghat paat ceremony. Our basic faith is obedience of Allah, Rasul, and Imam of the time. Is there any mention of Natiq and Assas in our ginans. The philosophy of Natiq and Assas cycle started in Fatimid period. In all these cycles from Prophet Adam, is there any mention of Vishnu and Brahma in Arabic Literature?

Why should our faith be validated by what was articulated during the Fatimid Period? What is so special about it? Everything in the Arabic literature is not necessarily right. Generally during the Fatimid Period the Ismaili Tariqah was articulated to the general Muslim Umma and not specifically to Ismaili Tariqah. Hence the notions articulated were with respect to the society as a whole and not necessarily to Ismailis, just like the Constitution is directed to everybody and not just Ismailis.

The notions of Natiq and Asas relate to the role of the Prophets and the Imams with respect to mankind and not to the Jamat. For the Jamat the Imams have always been the supreme authority . The Prophets would have been their murids. The Prophet was a Pir and hence he was the murid of the Imam irrespective of him being the Natiq.

On the other hand the notion of Imamat and Piratan goes back since creation. It existed even before Hazarat Adam. We don't believe that Hazarat Adam was the first man.

Ghat Paat ceremony comprises also the fundamental principles of our faith going right back to creation and is not restricted to 1400 years and therefore is more important than any other aspect of our faith.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:19 pm

Kmaherali wrote,"The five Paandvas served the holy water of the vessels and Sati Ddhropadee did it perfectly through the remembrance of the Lord. The Lord reduced their sins due to participation in the "Ghatpaat" ceremony."

Mazhar asks 2 questions;
1. Can our all sins be forgiven by participation in Ghatpaat ritual?

2. Was Sati Dhrupadi single wife to 5 Paandvas? ( I mean 5 husbands and
one wife!)

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:35 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:The term shia is used in quran for H.nuh[as] family ....family of H.Imran[as], H.Musa[as]....H.Ibrahim[as] and finally H.Muhammad[SAW]

Brother agakhani .......arent we all SHIA = party of allah [swt] ???????

If we promote that then i guess every other muslim is a SHIA ...whose party can be bigger than the party of allah [swt] ???

I am Shia too, of Muhaamad SAW. I am Shia of Hz Ali, Hussein, Hassan, Bibi Fatema, since they were Shia of the Prophet.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:36 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10417

Posted: 02 Apr 2015 10:23 am Post subject:

mazhar wrote:
My question is about the last cycle of NATIQ ans ASSAS started 1400+ yrs ago and not ghat paat ceremony. Our basic faith is obedience of Allah, Rasul, and Imam of the time. Is there any mention of Natiq and Assas in our ginans. The philosophy of Natiq and Assas cycle started in Fatimid period. In all these cycles from Prophet Adam, is there any mention of Vishnu and Brahma in Arabic Literature?

1.Kmaherali wrote; Why should our faith be validated by what was articulated during the Fatimid Period? What is so special about it? Everything in the Arabic literature is not necessarily right. Generally during the Fatimid Period the Ismaili Tariqah was articulated to the general Muslim Umma and not specifically to Ismaili Tariqah. Hence the notions articulated were with respect to the society as a whole and not necessarily to Ismailis, just like the Constitution is directed to everybody and not just Ismailis.

2.The notions of Natiq and Asas relate to the role of the Prophets and the Imams with respect to mankind and not to the Jamat. For the Jamat the Imams have always been the supreme authority . The Prophets would have been their murids. The Prophet was a Pir and hence he was the murid of the Imam irrespective of him being the Natiq.

3.On the other hand the notion of Imamat and Piratan goes back since creation. It existed even before Hazarat Adam. We don't believe that Hazarat Adam was the first man.

4.Ghat Paat ceremony comprises also the fundamental principles of our faith going right back to creation and is not restricted to 1400 years and therefore is more important than any other aspect of our faith.

Reply by Mazhar to Kmaherali,
1.According to your notion," Why should our faith be validated by what was articulated during the Fatimid period?" means our articles of faith were different during Fatimid period and now. Please note basic articles of faith have not changed since Prophet Muhammad. If Fatimid philisophy is not valid than how come will be Ginan philosophy valid in 21st century, Ginans are 700 years old. Please note, I am not against Ginans.
Is your this sentence correct," Just like the constitution is directed to to everybody and not just Ismailis.' Which constitution.
2. I have objection on your this sentence," The Prophet was a Pir hence he was murid of the Imam irrespective of him being Natiq." Km, first come Natiq and than Assas, so who is superior. NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TO TAMEY PAMO IMAM. How you will interpret this verse I don't know! In Hadith Qudsi it is said," lou laak lama khalaqtul aflaaq." In 1885, MSMS said in Farman, I am the Noor of both Hazrat Ali and Prophet Muhammad". Prophet was first Rasul and than having any other title.
3.You wrote," We don't believe that Hazrat Adam was the first man." Fine, can you give names of other ADAMS, NATIQS, ASSAS, PIRS,IMAMS before that first Adam. So far we have only one name of Hazrat Hunaid. If you will give references from Hindu mythology then Pindora box will open.
4. I am not against Ghatpaat ritual. Water has been an important factor in the rituals of mostly all religions. Water's ta'weel is purity and in Is maili terminology the Ta'weel of water is ILM or knowledge.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:46 am

mazhar wrote:
Mazhar asks 2 questions;
1. Can our all sins be forgiven by participation in Ghatpaat ritual?

2. Was Sati Dhrupadi single wife to 5 Paandvas? ( I mean 5 husbands and
one wife!)

1) Ismailis know that Ghat Paat ritual is not made to forgive sins, that is not the aim of the Ghat Pat at all.

2) Lets not go into it because in the Bible and Quran, tere are sories of Prophets that will make you loose your sleep, believe me.... Some of which had hundred of wife and some only 13.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:21 am

agakhani wrote:Ginanic Ismaili views:

Natiq : Prophet
Assas : Pir

Ginans do not have the notion of Natiq and Asas. They have the notion of Imamat and Piratan.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:22 am

mazhar wrote:Kmaherali wrote,"The five Paandvas served the holy water of the vessels and Sati Ddhropadee did it perfectly through the remembrance of the Lord. The Lord reduced their sins due to participation in the "Ghatpaat" ceremony."

Mazhar asks 2 questions;
1. Can our all sins be forgiven by participation in Ghatpaat ritual? !)

I mentioned that sins can be reduced by the participation in Ghat Paat through enhanced awareness of the purity of the soul and the virtues symbolized in the sukreet. I did not say they can be forgiven.

mazhar wrote: 2. Was Sati Dhrupadi single wife to 5 Paandvas? ( I mean 5 husbands and
one wife!)

Yes she was the wife of the 5 Pandavs.
Paramahansa Yogananda in his commentary of the Bhagavad Gita explains:
“In an elaborate ceremony called svayamvara, held by King Drupada to choose a husband for his daughter Draupadi, Drupada made the condition that the hand of his daughter would be given only to the prince who could bend a gigantic bow provided for the occasion, and with it hit the eye of a cleverly concealed and suspended target. Princes from far and near tried and failed even to lift the bow. Arjuna (one of the Pandavs) succeded easily. When the five Pandus returned home, their mother Kunti (Mata Kunta), hearing their approach from a distance and presuming they had won some wealth, called out to them that they must equally share their winnings. As the mother’s word must be honored, Draupadi became the wife of all the five brothers. She bore one son by each.”
From the above we can clearly see that the marriage was not made for the gratification of lust but due to a noble principle.

mazhar wrote:Reply by Mazhar to Kmaherali,
1.According to your notion," Why should our faith be validated by what was articulated during the Fatimid period?" means our articles of faith were different during Fatimid period and now. Please note basic articles of faith have not changed since Prophet Muhammad. If Fatimid philisophy is not valid than how come will be Ginan philosophy valid in 21st century, Ginans are 700 years old. Please note, I am not against Ginans.
Is your this sentence correct," Just like the constitution is directed to to everybody and not just Ismailis.' Which constitution. .

I think one aspect of the Fatimid philosophy is that there is a distinction between the Asas (the first Imam) and the rest of the Imams. The present Ismaili Constitution (directed to non-Ismailis as well) makes no distinction. As I stated before, the Fatimid philosophy generally highlighted the worldly role of the Prophet and the Imams as the Natiq and the inheritors respectively. This does not reflect their role within the Ismaili Jamat. Ginans on the other hand maintain the supreme authority of the Imam and the Pirs as his murids. The Prophet was a Pir and hence a murid of the Imam.

mazhar wrote: 2. I have objection on your this sentence," The Prophet was a Pir hence he was murid of the Imam irrespective of him being Natiq." Km, first come Natiq and than Assas, so who is superior. NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TO TAMEY PAMO IMAM. How you will interpret this verse I don't know! In Hadith Qudsi it is said," lou laak lama khalaqtul aflaaq." In 1885, MSMS said in Farman, I am the Noor of both Hazrat Ali and Prophet Muhammad". Prophet was first Rasul and than having any other title. .

Our religion did not begin by the Prophet. He initiated the new cycle. Our religion has existed since creation. Nabuwaat was there for 23 years and Imamat is everlasting, so which is superior? The role of the Natiq is temporary to bring new revelation to mankind. The Jamat already had the Imamat and Piratan and hence it was not new to the Jamat. . NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TO TAMEY PAMO IMAM means “Know the Pir so that you may attain the Imam” . Nabi is the one who gives you the recognition of Imamat which is the station to be attained, hence Imamat is superior. Nabi did not exist when Ginans were written and hence Nabi meant the Pir. In another Ginan, Pir Sadardeen states:
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
Hence the Noor of Muhammad was manifest in the Pir who went to Jampudeep. As I said before Prophet Muhammad was Fanna and hence his status would have been the same as that of the Imam. However their roles were different. The Prophets role was to introduce a murid to the Imam, just as a mother’s role is to introduce a child to the father.
The Prophet was first a Pir of Ismaili Jamat, and then assumed the wider role of Prophethood. Until the age of 40 he was a murid of the Imam and thereafter he became the Rasul.

mazhar wrote: 3.You wrote," We don't believe that Hazrat Adam was the first man." Fine, can you give names of other ADAMS, NATIQS, ASSAS, PIRS,IMAMS before that first Adam. So far we have only one name of Hazrat Hunaid. If you will give references from Hindu mythology then Pindora box will open. .

Of course in our Old Dua which I quoted earlier we have the names of Imams before Hazarat Adam. Here again is the link.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 36&start=0
The Light of Piratan is always present. Sometimes it is combined in the Imam and at other times it expresses itself in a separate person. Pir Hasan Kabideen who is the bearer of the Light mentions about his existence in other Yugas in the verses of the Anant Akhado below.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

mazhar wrote: 4. I am not against Ghatpaat ritual. Water has been an important factor in the rituals of mostly all religions. Water's ta'weel is purity and in Is maili terminology the Ta'weel of water is ILM or knowledge.

Yes, there is a separate thread explaining the symbolism of Ghat Paat ceremony at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... gnificance

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:06 am

zznoor wrote: I am Shia too, of Muhaamad SAW. I am Shia of Hz Ali, Hussein, Hassan, Bibi Fatema, since they were Shia of the Prophet.

You mentioned elsewhere that only Allah forgives the sins. However in Shia Islam Intercession is possible through the Imams/Prophet.

No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission.1

Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission?2

On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him.3

And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased.4

None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.5

Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits.6

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