No la poesía pero "sagrado litterature" Moman Chetamnimazhar wrote: Ak, gracias senor, pero necesito la explicacion de parte # 108 y 109 de poesia Momin Chetamani.
Gracias otra vez.
Admin
momin chetamani
Kmaherali's answers on Momin chetamani;
mazhar wrote:
In Ismaili Khoja Ginanic literature NAR means IMAM and GUR or SATGUR means PIR Please read parts #s 628 and 630 there is no mention of Pir Sadruddin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Check part # 629, where he says," GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA."
Verse 628 states:
Eji Dhan dhan ti Pir Sadardin satgur brahma
Ane dhan dhan Pir Hassan Kabirdin aena parivar
Dhan dhan te satgur Imamshah ne kahiay
Jeno satgure ginan kanthi yoon vichar
Cheto....
628. It is auspicious to have had Pir Sadardin and his son, Pir Hasan
Kabirdin and now his son Imam Shah to preach to us in musical form.
So Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen have been mentioned as Pirs and Imam Shah calls himself Satgur!
mazhar wrote:
1. I mentiond the book" Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi" from which Syed Imam Shah had taken the full account of Pir Shams including miracles. You did not responded about the book, but said may be from Sabzwar he went to Tabriz and then to 24 countries. You use the words MAY BE, means you are not sure. How come Imam Shah did not knew where his great great grand father was born!
Of course he knew where his great great grand father was born. He just chose to call him by the title of Tabriz. So not a big deal. It has no significance beyond being a title.
mazhar wrote:
4. In part 199 the mention of Daswand is related to story of 4 KHOJAS and not from very beginning. You wrote," the verse can be interpreted as new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur." You used the words CAN BE, means not sure.
Sir, according to Islamic books and Hadiths there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad of collecting tith, neither there is any proof of Mowla Ali for collecting tith or 10% in His tenure.
There is no mention of the 4 khojas in verse 199. Ginans are subject to interpretation. By using the words ‘can be’ I am implying that it is one of the possible interpretations.
Dasond has been a tradition since the beginning according to the Ginans and Farmans. Why do you need a proof about that from other sources?
mazhar wrote:
5. In parts 522,523,524, Syed Imam Shah has described the AMRAPURI means heaven in terms of Sunni traditions. You wrote," these are symbollic expressions."
My question was that a momin in heaven will get 50 Huru, 500 sons but no daughters. This is completely sunni tradition.
[quote="mazhar"]Sometimes when the word ‘Man’ is used, it implies humanity and hence woman is also meant. For example we may say: ‘Concept of Man’, this would also imply woman. Hence son can also imply daughter. Remember Ginans are poetic and hence can have meaning that are not apparent.
mazhar wrote:
7.Regarding Parts 142, 360, Syed Imam Shah mentions," CHALIO AMARO AALJO" you should pay my1/40. I have objection on the word "AMARO" MEANS MINE. If 10% belong to Nar and 2.5% to Satgur than what about 2,5% of zakat! As he was not pir so can not demand 2.5% for himself. Think about the word AMARO. In my mind was 1/40th, but I mistakenly typed otherwisein my previous post.
[quote="mazhar"]In Ismailism zakat is not a Tariqa practice and hence one may not observe it. It is a Sharia practice hence you can observe it if you want but it is not compulsory.
AMARO implies plural. It does not mean one person only. In this context AMARO means chain of Piratan or the institution of Piratan. Here Sayyed Imam Shah is saying on behalf of the institution of Piratan.
mazhar wrote:
8. In part 205, the word mulk is used. In many subcontinent languages the word mulk means country. For example; in Urdu," yee mera mulk hai." This is my country.
In Sindhi," hee muhnjo mulk aahey." Same meaning. In Pujabi," eeh saddha mulk ee." So Pir Shams visited 24 main cities, and not countries.
If mulk means countries then why are you saying cities?
mazhar wrote:
9. In part 528, about MIR PARBAT, you interpreted that it is a mountain called Mayer where in all 21 heavens are kept. Any reference? I can not buy this concept.
Is there any mention of 21 paradises in any muslim book.
That was my opinion. It is a reasonable assumption. If you cannot buy it, it does not mean that the concept is wrong. Again you do not need references to prove it. You either accept it or don’t.
mazhar wrote:
10. With ref. to shatru, you wrote,"Those who do not recognise satgur are the enemies." Is this God's justice, if 7 billion human beings who do not believe in satgur are enemies( and go into hell.)
The notion of a true guide is not restricted to our tariqah only. As I mentioned in another thread there can be other Mursheed Kameels as well for other tariqahs or faiths.
mazhar wrote:
11. You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means a kinsman or a relative. Now with ref. to part 108, 109. Allah said to Prophet that daughter ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and son( Mowla Ali as husband ) is in my house !
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEYJAL SHANHU
AAPAN DONU NUAY CHHEYVAHVAAR. PART 108.
You wrote Nabi and Ali are from same noor so what is the problem? But in part 109," AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAEIN." Means Allah says to Prophet that you and I, (both ) are one. Please read the Parts 108 and 109 carefully regarding marraige relationship.
In that case Nabi was one with Allah. He was Fanna so there is no problem.
mazhar wrote:
12,You answered," He neglected Imams probably he composed these verses during time of Imam Gharib Mirza." Again you use the word probably means you are not sure. My question is even he composed at time of Imam Gharib Mirza still he missed Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansibillah and Imam Abdus Salam and later on should have included Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali because he was still alive.
It was just his choice not to mention all of them. That does not make him wrong or does not imply he left the Tariqah
From Mazhar,
1. I mistakenly typed part 628, actually I wanted to quote part 626 where Syed Imam Shah called himself AVTAAR. Please check the following verse of part 626,
ANEY DHAN DHAN IMAM SHAHA AVTAAR.
Also in part 629, he has called himself GUR MEANS PIR and not satgur.
GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA.
2. You wrote," He just chose to call him by the TITLE Tabrizi." My answer is Pir Shams did not used the pen name Tabrizi in his ginans because he was not born in Tabriz.
3. You wrote," There is no mention of khojas in part 199 related to daswand." Please check again the part 199, the word khoja is mentioned. Let me quot,
TENEY BHODI NEY KHOJA KARIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM ACHAAR
TIYAN THI SAT PANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VAHWAAR Part 199.
4. Parts 522, 523, 524.
I understand in prose and poetry when word men imply it contains both genders. But look at the formation of stanzas Momins will get 50 huru and 500 sons and it is in literal form. If you think they will get 500 daughters too beside sons, I don't mind.
5. You and Aghakhani ducked down the explaination of part 108 which is very crucial according to Ismaili philisophy. Let me quote again the part 108.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
APAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR Part 108.
Km, how will you explain these 4 stanzas. According to Syed Imam Shah Ali is Allah, so in other words Allah is asking Prophet to give his daughter ( Bibi Fatima) in marraige to son who is in His house. Look at this line," AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR." From where this philosophy came! So Bibi Fatima is suppose to be Allah's daughter in law!! There fore I used the word SANMBANDHI.
mazhar wrote:
In Ismaili Khoja Ginanic literature NAR means IMAM and GUR or SATGUR means PIR Please read parts #s 628 and 630 there is no mention of Pir Sadruddin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Check part # 629, where he says," GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA."
Verse 628 states:
Eji Dhan dhan ti Pir Sadardin satgur brahma
Ane dhan dhan Pir Hassan Kabirdin aena parivar
Dhan dhan te satgur Imamshah ne kahiay
Jeno satgure ginan kanthi yoon vichar
Cheto....
628. It is auspicious to have had Pir Sadardin and his son, Pir Hasan
Kabirdin and now his son Imam Shah to preach to us in musical form.
So Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen have been mentioned as Pirs and Imam Shah calls himself Satgur!
mazhar wrote:
1. I mentiond the book" Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi" from which Syed Imam Shah had taken the full account of Pir Shams including miracles. You did not responded about the book, but said may be from Sabzwar he went to Tabriz and then to 24 countries. You use the words MAY BE, means you are not sure. How come Imam Shah did not knew where his great great grand father was born!
Of course he knew where his great great grand father was born. He just chose to call him by the title of Tabriz. So not a big deal. It has no significance beyond being a title.
mazhar wrote:
4. In part 199 the mention of Daswand is related to story of 4 KHOJAS and not from very beginning. You wrote," the verse can be interpreted as new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur." You used the words CAN BE, means not sure.
Sir, according to Islamic books and Hadiths there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad of collecting tith, neither there is any proof of Mowla Ali for collecting tith or 10% in His tenure.
There is no mention of the 4 khojas in verse 199. Ginans are subject to interpretation. By using the words ‘can be’ I am implying that it is one of the possible interpretations.
Dasond has been a tradition since the beginning according to the Ginans and Farmans. Why do you need a proof about that from other sources?
mazhar wrote:
5. In parts 522,523,524, Syed Imam Shah has described the AMRAPURI means heaven in terms of Sunni traditions. You wrote," these are symbollic expressions."
My question was that a momin in heaven will get 50 Huru, 500 sons but no daughters. This is completely sunni tradition.
[quote="mazhar"]Sometimes when the word ‘Man’ is used, it implies humanity and hence woman is also meant. For example we may say: ‘Concept of Man’, this would also imply woman. Hence son can also imply daughter. Remember Ginans are poetic and hence can have meaning that are not apparent.
mazhar wrote:
7.Regarding Parts 142, 360, Syed Imam Shah mentions," CHALIO AMARO AALJO" you should pay my1/40. I have objection on the word "AMARO" MEANS MINE. If 10% belong to Nar and 2.5% to Satgur than what about 2,5% of zakat! As he was not pir so can not demand 2.5% for himself. Think about the word AMARO. In my mind was 1/40th, but I mistakenly typed otherwisein my previous post.
[quote="mazhar"]In Ismailism zakat is not a Tariqa practice and hence one may not observe it. It is a Sharia practice hence you can observe it if you want but it is not compulsory.
AMARO implies plural. It does not mean one person only. In this context AMARO means chain of Piratan or the institution of Piratan. Here Sayyed Imam Shah is saying on behalf of the institution of Piratan.
mazhar wrote:
8. In part 205, the word mulk is used. In many subcontinent languages the word mulk means country. For example; in Urdu," yee mera mulk hai." This is my country.
In Sindhi," hee muhnjo mulk aahey." Same meaning. In Pujabi," eeh saddha mulk ee." So Pir Shams visited 24 main cities, and not countries.
If mulk means countries then why are you saying cities?
mazhar wrote:
9. In part 528, about MIR PARBAT, you interpreted that it is a mountain called Mayer where in all 21 heavens are kept. Any reference? I can not buy this concept.
Is there any mention of 21 paradises in any muslim book.
That was my opinion. It is a reasonable assumption. If you cannot buy it, it does not mean that the concept is wrong. Again you do not need references to prove it. You either accept it or don’t.
mazhar wrote:
10. With ref. to shatru, you wrote,"Those who do not recognise satgur are the enemies." Is this God's justice, if 7 billion human beings who do not believe in satgur are enemies( and go into hell.)
The notion of a true guide is not restricted to our tariqah only. As I mentioned in another thread there can be other Mursheed Kameels as well for other tariqahs or faiths.
mazhar wrote:
11. You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means a kinsman or a relative. Now with ref. to part 108, 109. Allah said to Prophet that daughter ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and son( Mowla Ali as husband ) is in my house !
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEYJAL SHANHU
AAPAN DONU NUAY CHHEYVAHVAAR. PART 108.
You wrote Nabi and Ali are from same noor so what is the problem? But in part 109," AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAEIN." Means Allah says to Prophet that you and I, (both ) are one. Please read the Parts 108 and 109 carefully regarding marraige relationship.
In that case Nabi was one with Allah. He was Fanna so there is no problem.
mazhar wrote:
12,You answered," He neglected Imams probably he composed these verses during time of Imam Gharib Mirza." Again you use the word probably means you are not sure. My question is even he composed at time of Imam Gharib Mirza still he missed Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansibillah and Imam Abdus Salam and later on should have included Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali because he was still alive.
It was just his choice not to mention all of them. That does not make him wrong or does not imply he left the Tariqah
From Mazhar,
1. I mistakenly typed part 628, actually I wanted to quote part 626 where Syed Imam Shah called himself AVTAAR. Please check the following verse of part 626,
ANEY DHAN DHAN IMAM SHAHA AVTAAR.
Also in part 629, he has called himself GUR MEANS PIR and not satgur.
GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA.
2. You wrote," He just chose to call him by the TITLE Tabrizi." My answer is Pir Shams did not used the pen name Tabrizi in his ginans because he was not born in Tabriz.
3. You wrote," There is no mention of khojas in part 199 related to daswand." Please check again the part 199, the word khoja is mentioned. Let me quot,
TENEY BHODI NEY KHOJA KARIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM ACHAAR
TIYAN THI SAT PANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VAHWAAR Part 199.
4. Parts 522, 523, 524.
I understand in prose and poetry when word men imply it contains both genders. But look at the formation of stanzas Momins will get 50 huru and 500 sons and it is in literal form. If you think they will get 500 daughters too beside sons, I don't mind.
5. You and Aghakhani ducked down the explaination of part 108 which is very crucial according to Ismaili philisophy. Let me quote again the part 108.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
APAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR Part 108.
Km, how will you explain these 4 stanzas. According to Syed Imam Shah Ali is Allah, so in other words Allah is asking Prophet to give his daughter ( Bibi Fatima) in marraige to son who is in His house. Look at this line," AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR." From where this philosophy came! So Bibi Fatima is suppose to be Allah's daughter in law!! There fore I used the word SANMBANDHI.
Posted: 11 Mar 2015 05:33 am Post subject:
Dear Mazhar,
wrote:
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
Dasoond [Dah-yakk] or one-tenth is actually mentioned in the Qur'an. Not the same words, but the same concept. Nasir-i-Khusraw in his Wajh-i-din explains it beautifully with reference to the verse of Qur'an [Wa uqeem-u-salata wa atauzakata....]. Most muslims of ahl-e-sunnah and isna'ashria emphasizes only on salat and zakat, but fail to recognize the third element in this verse which is "Mal-i-Wajibaat" [aka Dasoon, or Dah-yakk]. There's spiritual philosophy behind this, i.e. the principal of detachment and renouncement of worldly materials and at the same time participating for good cause of helping others in need. So Zakat and Dasoon are two separate concepts which are both mentioned in the Qur'an.
Dear Tret,
You quoted Syedina Nasir Khusraw, there fore I was looking for the book Wajh i Din. I read the chapter 28 on Zakat. Nasir Khusraw has mentioned 4 types of Zakat.
SADAKA which is given at time of repentance and this is haraam for Prophet and his progeny as he wtote. USHR which is 1/10, is a land revenue on agriculture products and fruits. KHUMS is related to booty from wars and on minerals from under ground earth or mountains in solid or liquid forms. ZAKAT which is 2.5% on earnings and nisab. At time of Prophet Muhammad the zakat was used for needy, orphans,widows, handicaped soldiers/warriors, government expences and so on. But there is no historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad or Mowla Ali personally collected 10% or Dah-yak for themselves. Nasir Khusraw has used the term Dah-yak as Ushr. Also in Pir Pandiyat i Jawanmardi Dah-yak is used in connection to Imam, but there is no mention of any share for pirs in both books. In ginanic literature of sub continent there is mentiond of dasoond or Dah-yak for Imam and beside that 2.5% share ( chaliswun) for pirs. I wander pir Sadruddin and pir Hasan Kabiruddin did not collected 2.5% according to history for themselves. They worked hard to earn their livelyhood to raised their families.
Dear Mazhar,
wrote:
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
Dasoond [Dah-yakk] or one-tenth is actually mentioned in the Qur'an. Not the same words, but the same concept. Nasir-i-Khusraw in his Wajh-i-din explains it beautifully with reference to the verse of Qur'an [Wa uqeem-u-salata wa atauzakata....]. Most muslims of ahl-e-sunnah and isna'ashria emphasizes only on salat and zakat, but fail to recognize the third element in this verse which is "Mal-i-Wajibaat" [aka Dasoon, or Dah-yakk]. There's spiritual philosophy behind this, i.e. the principal of detachment and renouncement of worldly materials and at the same time participating for good cause of helping others in need. So Zakat and Dasoon are two separate concepts which are both mentioned in the Qur'an.
Dear Tret,
You quoted Syedina Nasir Khusraw, there fore I was looking for the book Wajh i Din. I read the chapter 28 on Zakat. Nasir Khusraw has mentioned 4 types of Zakat.
SADAKA which is given at time of repentance and this is haraam for Prophet and his progeny as he wtote. USHR which is 1/10, is a land revenue on agriculture products and fruits. KHUMS is related to booty from wars and on minerals from under ground earth or mountains in solid or liquid forms. ZAKAT which is 2.5% on earnings and nisab. At time of Prophet Muhammad the zakat was used for needy, orphans,widows, handicaped soldiers/warriors, government expences and so on. But there is no historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad or Mowla Ali personally collected 10% or Dah-yak for themselves. Nasir Khusraw has used the term Dah-yak as Ushr. Also in Pir Pandiyat i Jawanmardi Dah-yak is used in connection to Imam, but there is no mention of any share for pirs in both books. In ginanic literature of sub continent there is mentiond of dasoond or Dah-yak for Imam and beside that 2.5% share ( chaliswun) for pirs. I wander pir Sadruddin and pir Hasan Kabiruddin did not collected 2.5% according to history for themselves. They worked hard to earn their livelyhood to raised their families.
He called himself AVTAAR because he considered himself to be elevated to the level of Fanna. As I said before it is possible for more than one person to be Fanna.mazhar wrote: From Mazhar,
1. I mistakenly typed part 628, actually I wanted to quote part 626 where Syed Imam Shah called himself AVTAAR. Please check the following verse of part 626,
ANEY DHAN DHAN IMAM SHAHA AVTAAR.
Also in part 629, he has called himself GUR MEANS PIR and not satgur.
GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA..
Gur just means a guide, any person can call hmself a Gur. It does not imply that they are appointed Pirs.
Fine, it is not something major. It is a minor difference of opinion.mazhar wrote: 2. You wrote," He just chose to call him by the TITLE Tabrizi." My answer is Pir Shams did not used the pen name Tabrizi in his ginans because he was not born in Tabriz..
In your initial question you said that it was related to the story of the 4 Khojas, which it is not. It is simply about khojas.mazhar wrote: 3. You wrote," There is no mention of khojas in part 199 related to daswand." Please check again the part 199, the word khoja is mentioned. Let me quot,
TENEY BHODI NEY KHOJA KARIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM ACHAAR
TIYAN THI SAT PANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VAHWAAR Part 199..
When we refer to the Prophet as Allah we are talking about him being the Mazhar. Father in Law and daughter in law is a physical relationship. When we say MHI's daughter is Princess Zahra, we don't imply she is God's daughter but the daughter of the Mazhar. So what is the problem with that.mazhar wrote: 5. You and Aghakhani ducked down the explaination of part 108 which is very crucial according to Ismaili philisophy. Let me quote again the part 108.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
APAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR Part 108.
Km, how will you explain these 4 stanzas. According to Syed Imam Shah Ali is Allah, so in other words Allah is asking Prophet to give his daughter ( Bibi Fatima) in marraige to son who is in His house. Look at this line," AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR." From where this philosophy came! So Bibi Fatima is suppose to be Allah's daughter in law!! There fore I used the word SANMBANDHI.
Out of some 630 verses you have come up with only about 10 questionable items which are not significant at all. Hence there is no problem with Moman Chetamni.
Wrong!!! Actually dasond was there before Khojas conversion in Indo-Pak below is the proof.[/b]Code: Select all
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
Aashaji Kalap jug maahen dasond-j hoti
avar nahi khuch vichaar ji
dasond vina je jiv raheshe
te fera fare chodhaar....................Hari anant..351
Oh Lord From the era of Kalaps the practice of submitting Dasond has been established
there is no compromise about it
A soul that remains without submitting dasond
will continue to go into cycles (births) everywhere and never reach the final destination..
Hari You are eternal
Admin
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2911
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:14 am Post subject:
Dasond is not necessaririly in the form of money. It has been in the past in the form of animals, vegetable, other offering by angels in the higher sphere. Maybe someone can elaborate with these references in similar ginans or religious texts.
Dear Moderator, let me tell you an anecdote. some 5000 years back, a farmer came to temple and asked the prophet of that time, sir I have a lamb.How can I give TITH, 10%
out of that. Prophet asked the farmer, What is the weight of the lamb. Farmer replied 100 pounds. O.k give me a good, neat, and clean cut piece of of 10 pounds, and listen clean the fat properly.
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2911
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:14 am Post subject:
Dasond is not necessaririly in the form of money. It has been in the past in the form of animals, vegetable, other offering by angels in the higher sphere. Maybe someone can elaborate with these references in similar ginans or religious texts.
Dear Moderator, let me tell you an anecdote. some 5000 years back, a farmer came to temple and asked the prophet of that time, sir I have a lamb.How can I give TITH, 10%
out of that. Prophet asked the farmer, What is the weight of the lamb. Farmer replied 100 pounds. O.k give me a good, neat, and clean cut piece of of 10 pounds, and listen clean the fat properly.
Mazhar,
Tithe is written with an "e" and is mentioned in the Bible also. Please keep some dictionary beside you when you post.
Are you here to mock the Bible? then your place is rather on some Christian or Jew hating blog, not here where we respect all our brothers in Ahl al-Kitab including those from our common Prophet Abraham.
Religious offering is a sacred concept in all the religions.
Admin
Tithe is written with an "e" and is mentioned in the Bible also. Please keep some dictionary beside you when you post.
Are you here to mock the Bible? then your place is rather on some Christian or Jew hating blog, not here where we respect all our brothers in Ahl al-Kitab including those from our common Prophet Abraham.
Religious offering is a sacred concept in all the religions.
Admin
agakhani
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1973
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:07 am Post subject:
Quote:
Code:
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
AASHA JI KALAP JUG MAAHEN DASOND J HOTI
AVAR NAHEI KUCHH VICHAAR JI
DASOND VINA JE JIVERAHESHE
TE FERA FAREY CHUDHAAR JI..............HARI ANANT....351.
Reply to Aghakhani,
You are not explaing my crucial questions. you selected one on Dasond. Please read my reply to Tret in this thread on Dasond and Zakat.
The part 351 from ANANT AKHARO mentions Hari and not ALI. You know well when Hari was replaced with Ali. In this part stress is on Dasond and not on Iman.
Iman and recognition of Imam comes first followed by other rituals. Syed Imam Shah has mentiond that sat panth and dasond in khojas was started by Pir Satgur Noor
in sub continent.
Aghakhani, so far you are failed to explain part 108, I want to understand philosophy in this particular part. Even Kmaherali is not touching the subject and philosophy in this part. I do not want superficial answers. May be it is a touchy subject.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTHAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALLA SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR............PART 108.
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1973
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:07 am Post subject:
Quote:
Code:
4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
AASHA JI KALAP JUG MAAHEN DASOND J HOTI
AVAR NAHEI KUCHH VICHAAR JI
DASOND VINA JE JIVERAHESHE
TE FERA FAREY CHUDHAAR JI..............HARI ANANT....351.
Reply to Aghakhani,
You are not explaing my crucial questions. you selected one on Dasond. Please read my reply to Tret in this thread on Dasond and Zakat.
The part 351 from ANANT AKHARO mentions Hari and not ALI. You know well when Hari was replaced with Ali. In this part stress is on Dasond and not on Iman.
Iman and recognition of Imam comes first followed by other rituals. Syed Imam Shah has mentiond that sat panth and dasond in khojas was started by Pir Satgur Noor
in sub continent.
Aghakhani, so far you are failed to explain part 108, I want to understand philosophy in this particular part. Even Kmaherali is not touching the subject and philosophy in this part. I do not want superficial answers. May be it is a touchy subject.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTHAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALLA SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR............PART 108.
Yes and this is not only unacceptable but also stupid. And to pretend that the Imam has replaced it is even more irresponsible and fraud. I have heard many times Hari recited in front of the Imam and Imam has even mention of Draupadi once when the Imam mentioned to Mukhi that he himself has accepted this ginan. So please stop your anti ginan propaganda.mazhar wrote:ANANT AKHARO mentions Hari and not ALI. You know well when Hari was replaced with Ali
Hari means God. Keep also a Sanscrit dictionnary beside you.
Abually in his book: Ismailism mentions that the Prophet used to collect the offerings in kind and then auctioned them as Nandi. In Syria until very recently (if not at present) murids still offer Dasond in kind (farm produce). In the Ginan: TEEAA(N) GURE GINAAN KAREAA - PEER SHAMSH it is mentioned that Pir Shamsh went to jungle and the wild animals accepted to pay Dasond!Admin wrote:Dasond is not necessaririly in the form of money. It has been in the past in the form of animals, vegetable, other offering by angels in the higher sphere. Maybe someone can elaborate with these references in similar ginans or religious texts.
ejee see(n)he daso(n)d paratthee, ane ek van nee mukee vaat;
te van maa(n)he nathee jaataa, na kare utapaat...................13
The tiger contracted to pay the tithe, and it gave up the business of one forest-grove. It would not enter the forest, and did no mischief there.
ejee saavaj ne saan aavee, ane saa(m)bhalee gur naa ginaan;
te vaeeku(n)tth paameaa, aleaa gur-mukhe daan....................14
The tiger became enlightened, after attending to the Guide's teaching. It reached heaven, and made its offerings in the name of the Guide.
ejee sat-gur shamas bodheaa, evaa saavaj pa(n)khee jaann;
aaj gur vachane je chaalase, te thaase sahee niravaann...........15
The True Guide preached in this way to the wild beasts and birds. Those who proceed according to the word of the Guide today will assuredly be saved.
In the Ginan: ramataa ramataa prabhu paattann aaveaa, it is mentioned that an animal offered its flesh to Pir Satgur Nur so that the marraige of the Pir could take place. The Ginan can be referenced at:mazhar wrote:
Dear Moderator, let me tell you an anecdote. some 5000 years back, a farmer came to temple and asked the prophet of that time, sir I have a lamb.How can I give TITH, 10%
out of that. Prophet asked the farmer, What is the weight of the lamb. Farmer replied 100 pounds. O.k give me a good, neat, and clean cut piece of of 10 pounds, and listen clean the fat properly.
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4129
Your question is not crucial but my answer will be crucial for you I know you will not accept it but since you are forcing me then I am giving you any way!You are not explaing my crucial questions.
Why I said my answer will be crucial? because brother following verses are also telling that 'ALI SAHI ALLAH"!!!! believe it or not!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTHAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALLA SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR............PART 108.
First let me make it simple translation in short:-
As per the above ginanic verses and according to Syed Imam Shah.
Allah say to Prophet Mohammad you have daughter (Fatima) and in I
( Allah ) have son ( HAZARAT ALI ) as her husband.
You and I both are creator of whole universe (but)
Imamat and piratan will start from their both kids!
I.e pirs and Imams will come from Ali and Fatima family.
Go ahead find me a single pir or any Imam who is not from AALE NABI or AULADE ALI!
Go ahead and find me at least one . Either any pir or any Imam!
FYI :Pir is from Prophet side Shah is from H.Ali side and when we make together the word become "PIR SHAH"
Also there is a hidden meaning in above verses which is as follows:-
Wah! Syed Imam Shah wah! Me sadke jawa! only in 4 lines you explained a millions sentences but for those who can understand ginans properly and find out hidden and ruhani meetings from them. Mazhar bro you just can make only simple translation of ginans but you do not have that knowledge or guts to find hidden meanings.
So let me explain it to you.
Considering H. Ali as his own son! ( this is just allegory but it has big significance in it! to teach a lesson in simple way most of ginans are created that way, so that we can understand the ginans easily) Allah tell that there is no different between him and H. Ali. (s.a.) they both are same , they both have same blood like son and his dad should have "Son like a dad" they are equal!! . Are not Syed Imam Shah try to tell that ....
"Ali Sahi Allah" yes, he is bro Mazhar! :" Are E to wohi bat aa gai! Wohi Ali is the Allah : which you are not accepting since you joined in this forum!! therefore I told you that my answer will crucial for you not your question!!!??
Also there is no doubt left behind that Allah created everything for the sake of Prophet (PBUH), Paanjtan Pak alongwith for H. Ali (s.a.) and this is established from Quran, Sunnah and authentication of classical scholars, but even this majority interpreters has failed to accept Important roll of H. Ali (s.a.)!!
Last edited by agakhani on Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Look under chapter 47 "Andar Haqq-e Wajibaat":mazhar wrote: Dear Tret,
You quoted Syedina Nasir Khusraw, there fore I was looking for the book Wajh i Din. I read the chapter 28 on Zakat. Nasir Khusraw has mentioned 4 types of Zakat.
SADAKA which is given at time of repentance and this is haraam for Prophet and his progeny as he wtote. USHR which is 1/10, is a land revenue on agriculture products and fruits. KHUMS is related to booty from wars and on minerals from under ground earth or mountains in solid or liquid forms. ZAKAT which is 2.5% on earnings and nisab. At time of Prophet Muhammad the zakat was used for needy, orphans,widows, handicaped soldiers/warriors, government expences and so on. But there is no historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad or Mowla Ali personally collected 10% or Dah-yak for themselves. Nasir Khusraw has used the term Dah-yak as Ushr. Also in Pir Pandiyat i Jawanmardi Dah-yak is used in connection to Imam, but there is no mention of any share for pirs in both books. In ginanic literature of sub continent there is mentiond of dasoond or Dah-yak for Imam and beside that 2.5% share ( chaliswun) for pirs. I wander pir Sadruddin and pir Hasan Kabiruddin did not collected 2.5% according to history for themselves. They worked hard to earn their livelyhood to raised their families.
Please note in the Aya 73:30 of the Qur'an, 3 elements are mentioned together in the same ayah. This is also significant. a) salat, b) zakat, and c) mall-e-wajibaat. According to Ismailis, this last element is dah-yakk [Dasoond]. Read the full explanation.
Imams don't collect this mal-e-wajibaat for their personal use. This is well spent by the office of Imamate for the betterment of humanity and improving quality of lives. We can witness it today, through the work of AKDN; however, even in the past Imam used this to help the Jama'at according to their time.
Admin
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2913
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject:
Mazhar,
Tithe is written with an "e" and is mentioned in the Bible also. Please keep some dictionary beside you when you post.
Are you here to mock the Bible? then your place is rather on some Christian or Jew hating blog, not here where we respect all our brothers in Ahl al-Kitab including those from our common Prophet Abraham.
Religious offering is a sacred concept in all the religions.
Admin
Reply to Admin,
So sorry teacher, next time I shall keep English and Sanscrit dictionaries beside my bed table.
Teacher, Teacher I mentioned 5000 years back, at that time there was neither Christianity nor Judaism or Bible! OOPS.
Teacher, I do not hate any one because I do not have enemies.
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2913
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:47 pm Post subject:
Mazhar,
Tithe is written with an "e" and is mentioned in the Bible also. Please keep some dictionary beside you when you post.
Are you here to mock the Bible? then your place is rather on some Christian or Jew hating blog, not here where we respect all our brothers in Ahl al-Kitab including those from our common Prophet Abraham.
Religious offering is a sacred concept in all the religions.
Admin
Reply to Admin,
So sorry teacher, next time I shall keep English and Sanscrit dictionaries beside my bed table.
Teacher, Teacher I mentioned 5000 years back, at that time there was neither Christianity nor Judaism or Bible! OOPS.
Teacher, I do not hate any one because I do not have enemies.
kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10343
Posted: 15 Mar 2015 09:42 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
From Mazhar,
1. I mistakenly typed part 628, actually I wanted to quote part 626 where Syed Imam Shah called himself AVTAAR. Please check the following verse of part 626,
ANEY DHAN DHAN IMAM SHAHA AVTAAR.
Also in part 629, he has called himself GUR MEANS PIR and not satgur.
GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA..
He called himself AVTAAR because he considered himself to be elevated to the level of Fanna. As I said before it is possible for more than one person to be Fanna.
Gur just means a guide, any person can call hmself a Gur. It does not imply that they are appointed Pirs.
mazhar wrote:
2. You wrote," He just chose to call him by the TITLE Tabrizi." My answer is Pir Shams did not used the pen name Tabrizi in his ginans because he was not born in Tabriz..
Fine, it is not something major. It is a minor difference of opinion.
mazhar wrote:
3. You wrote," There is no mention of khojas in part 199 related to daswand." Please check again the part 199, the word khoja is mentioned. Let me quot,
TENEY BHODI NEY KHOJA KARIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM ACHAAR
TIYAN THI SAT PANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VAHWAAR Part 199..
In your initial question you said that it was related to the story of the 4 Khojas, which it is not. It is simply about khojas.
mazhar wrote:
5. You and Aghakhani ducked down the explaination of part 108 which is very crucial according to Ismaili philisophy. Let me quote again the part 108.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
APAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR Part 108.
Km, how will you explain these 4 stanzas. According to Syed Imam Shah Ali is Allah, so in other words Allah is asking Prophet to give his daughter ( Bibi Fatima) in marraige to son who is in His house. Look at this line," AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR." From where this philosophy came! So Bibi Fatima is suppose to be Allah's daughter in law!! There fore I used the word SANMBANDHI.
When we refer to the Prophet as Allah we are talking about him being the Mazhar. Father in Law and daughter in law is a physical relationship. When we say MHI's daughter is Princess Zahra, we don't imply she is God's daughter but the daughter of the Mazhar. So what is the problem with that.
Out of some 630 verses you have come up with only about 10 questionable items which are not significant at all. Hence there is no problem with Moman Chetamni.
Reply to Kmaherali,
You wrote," out of 630 verses you have come up with only 10 questionable items."
Km, let me first clearify, these are not 630 verses as you mentioned, but 630 parts of 4 veres each, 630 x 4.
In first set of my 12 questions, which you did not replied, I have written there is about 25% of repeatetion in Momin Chetamani. So far I have asked 24 questions on Momin Chetamani. I have some more crucial questions but these are so harsh that Admin. will any how delete them. In first set of questions I objected the story of 4 khojas as mentioned in ginan, but may be you do not have any reasonable answer for that story.
1. According to you, if Syed Imam Shah called himself Avtaar because he elevated his soul to fanna. well, than Hasan Basri, Ba Yazid, Dhunun Misri, Rabia Basri,
Datta Ganj bukhsh, Muinuddin Chisti, Shams Tabriz, mowlana Rumi, Shabaz Qalander, Shah Latif, Sachal Sarmast and so on. Were these spirituals all Avtaars;
but Avtaars of who, Vishnu, shiva, Brahama. There is no concept of Avtaars in Islam.
2. In ginanic terminology GUR is a title used for Pirs, others we call syeds.
3.Km, out of 4 stanzas of any given part you are picking up one line out of context for answer. Like in part 108 which is very crucial to philosophy of Ali Allah.
You are trying to answer me last 2 lines , where as I am insisting on first 2 lines. Please look at the formation of first 2 lines. Let me repeat again. This is the story of marriage between Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatima.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR PART 108.
Km, you are deliberately not answering these lines because khoja philosophy of Ali and Allah will be shaken. Now think Allah is asking the hand of Bibi Fatima from Prophet to marry son of Allah. So according to these two lines Ali and Allah are two different entities, FATHER AND SON. HOW YOU WILL ADDRESS THIS PHILOSOPHY? I used the word samnbandi in that context. Km, tell me," yeh rishta kia kahlata hai."
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10343
Posted: 15 Mar 2015 09:42 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
From Mazhar,
1. I mistakenly typed part 628, actually I wanted to quote part 626 where Syed Imam Shah called himself AVTAAR. Please check the following verse of part 626,
ANEY DHAN DHAN IMAM SHAHA AVTAAR.
Also in part 629, he has called himself GUR MEANS PIR and not satgur.
GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA..
He called himself AVTAAR because he considered himself to be elevated to the level of Fanna. As I said before it is possible for more than one person to be Fanna.
Gur just means a guide, any person can call hmself a Gur. It does not imply that they are appointed Pirs.
mazhar wrote:
2. You wrote," He just chose to call him by the TITLE Tabrizi." My answer is Pir Shams did not used the pen name Tabrizi in his ginans because he was not born in Tabriz..
Fine, it is not something major. It is a minor difference of opinion.
mazhar wrote:
3. You wrote," There is no mention of khojas in part 199 related to daswand." Please check again the part 199, the word khoja is mentioned. Let me quot,
TENEY BHODI NEY KHOJA KARIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM ACHAAR
TIYAN THI SAT PANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VAHWAAR Part 199..
In your initial question you said that it was related to the story of the 4 Khojas, which it is not. It is simply about khojas.
mazhar wrote:
5. You and Aghakhani ducked down the explaination of part 108 which is very crucial according to Ismaili philisophy. Let me quote again the part 108.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
APAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR Part 108.
Km, how will you explain these 4 stanzas. According to Syed Imam Shah Ali is Allah, so in other words Allah is asking Prophet to give his daughter ( Bibi Fatima) in marraige to son who is in His house. Look at this line," AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR." From where this philosophy came! So Bibi Fatima is suppose to be Allah's daughter in law!! There fore I used the word SANMBANDHI.
When we refer to the Prophet as Allah we are talking about him being the Mazhar. Father in Law and daughter in law is a physical relationship. When we say MHI's daughter is Princess Zahra, we don't imply she is God's daughter but the daughter of the Mazhar. So what is the problem with that.
Out of some 630 verses you have come up with only about 10 questionable items which are not significant at all. Hence there is no problem with Moman Chetamni.
Reply to Kmaherali,
You wrote," out of 630 verses you have come up with only 10 questionable items."
Km, let me first clearify, these are not 630 verses as you mentioned, but 630 parts of 4 veres each, 630 x 4.
In first set of my 12 questions, which you did not replied, I have written there is about 25% of repeatetion in Momin Chetamani. So far I have asked 24 questions on Momin Chetamani. I have some more crucial questions but these are so harsh that Admin. will any how delete them. In first set of questions I objected the story of 4 khojas as mentioned in ginan, but may be you do not have any reasonable answer for that story.
1. According to you, if Syed Imam Shah called himself Avtaar because he elevated his soul to fanna. well, than Hasan Basri, Ba Yazid, Dhunun Misri, Rabia Basri,
Datta Ganj bukhsh, Muinuddin Chisti, Shams Tabriz, mowlana Rumi, Shabaz Qalander, Shah Latif, Sachal Sarmast and so on. Were these spirituals all Avtaars;
but Avtaars of who, Vishnu, shiva, Brahama. There is no concept of Avtaars in Islam.
2. In ginanic terminology GUR is a title used for Pirs, others we call syeds.
3.Km, out of 4 stanzas of any given part you are picking up one line out of context for answer. Like in part 108 which is very crucial to philosophy of Ali Allah.
You are trying to answer me last 2 lines , where as I am insisting on first 2 lines. Please look at the formation of first 2 lines. Let me repeat again. This is the story of marriage between Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatima.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR PART 108.
Km, you are deliberately not answering these lines because khoja philosophy of Ali and Allah will be shaken. Now think Allah is asking the hand of Bibi Fatima from Prophet to marry son of Allah. So according to these two lines Ali and Allah are two different entities, FATHER AND SON. HOW YOU WILL ADDRESS THIS PHILOSOPHY? I used the word samnbandi in that context. Km, tell me," yeh rishta kia kahlata hai."
Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2913
Posted: 16 Mar 2015 05:10 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
ANANT AKHARO mentions Hari and not ALI. You know well when Hari was replaced with Ali
Yes and this is not only unacceptable but also stupid. And to pretend that the Imam has replaced it is even more irresponsible and fraud. I have heard many times Hari recited in front of the Imam and Imam has even mention of Draupadi once when the Imam mentioned to Mukhi that he himself has accepted this ginan. So please stop your anti ginan propaganda.
Hari means God. Keep also a Sanscrit dictionnary beside you.
Dear Administration,
Let me tell you and readers of this post, that during his very first visit to Pakistan MSMS was staying at Metropole hotel in Karachi. MSMS summond the very first president of Ismailia Associatior Pakistan for guidance. The president was accompanied by a young missionary who later on become the president of Ismailia Association and ITREB.
Who in early 50's wrote " Ever living Guide." He told me long ago, that during that meeting MSMS ordered the President," WARAS GINAN ME HARI KO ALI KARDO."
Posts: 2913
Posted: 16 Mar 2015 05:10 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
ANANT AKHARO mentions Hari and not ALI. You know well when Hari was replaced with Ali
Yes and this is not only unacceptable but also stupid. And to pretend that the Imam has replaced it is even more irresponsible and fraud. I have heard many times Hari recited in front of the Imam and Imam has even mention of Draupadi once when the Imam mentioned to Mukhi that he himself has accepted this ginan. So please stop your anti ginan propaganda.
Hari means God. Keep also a Sanscrit dictionnary beside you.
Dear Administration,
Let me tell you and readers of this post, that during his very first visit to Pakistan MSMS was staying at Metropole hotel in Karachi. MSMS summond the very first president of Ismailia Associatior Pakistan for guidance. The president was accompanied by a young missionary who later on become the president of Ismailia Association and ITREB.
Who in early 50's wrote " Ever living Guide." He told me long ago, that during that meeting MSMS ordered the President," WARAS GINAN ME HARI KO ALI KARDO."
There is enough evidence that this was a lie.
I understand Kassamali missionary preached this all his life and many missionaries who attended other conferences and meeting with the present Imam have confirmed that he Imam never asked Hari to be changed in Ali.
In fact Kassamali was challenged at the World Ismailia Association Conference in 1969 by President Shamshu Tejpar to produce any evidence and he failed to do so.
Another case in point is Missionary Amirali Amlani who had a personal 45 minutes meeting with Hazar Imam on specifically the Ginans and briefed me on his meeting and what Hazar Imam said about unwanted changes made by some people in our Ginans.
Soon to be posted on this website (within a couple of months) Follow-up Workshop documents on Paris Conference misrepresentation of what Imam said and the fraudulent reference as introduction in the Ginan Books printed by Ismailia Association Pakistan with wrongful changes..
So please refrain from singing the same broken record again and again in different threads of this Forum. And stop saying Imam said this and that, our Imam is not weak, if he needs to say anything, he will say it loud and clear and every Murid will follow what he says.
The subject of changes in the ginans should be discussed in the appropriate thread. There are technical limitations that do not allow us to transfer these posts from this thread to another thread so the only option is to delete misplaced posts. Thanks you for your understanding.
I understand Kassamali missionary preached this all his life and many missionaries who attended other conferences and meeting with the present Imam have confirmed that he Imam never asked Hari to be changed in Ali.
In fact Kassamali was challenged at the World Ismailia Association Conference in 1969 by President Shamshu Tejpar to produce any evidence and he failed to do so.
Another case in point is Missionary Amirali Amlani who had a personal 45 minutes meeting with Hazar Imam on specifically the Ginans and briefed me on his meeting and what Hazar Imam said about unwanted changes made by some people in our Ginans.
Soon to be posted on this website (within a couple of months) Follow-up Workshop documents on Paris Conference misrepresentation of what Imam said and the fraudulent reference as introduction in the Ginan Books printed by Ismailia Association Pakistan with wrongful changes..
So please refrain from singing the same broken record again and again in different threads of this Forum. And stop saying Imam said this and that, our Imam is not weak, if he needs to say anything, he will say it loud and clear and every Murid will follow what he says.
The subject of changes in the ginans should be discussed in the appropriate thread. There are technical limitations that do not allow us to transfer these posts from this thread to another thread so the only option is to delete misplaced posts. Thanks you for your understanding.
Ya Ali Madad:
does this ginan has relevance ?
Is this ginan still a part of ginans to be recited and studied presently in JK around the worlds.
many ginan which were totally not in essence of ismailsm/sufism were take n off from circulation by Imam SMS n MHI.
SO IS the case of waje e din by khusraw.
many time pir/dia went overboard n exceeded their brief by being god with making doomsday statement,creation of soul.etc.
They were not ALI/Imam/GOD.
Observation as different levels to any ginan can give rise to anomaly is some verses.
A women wherter noorani or regular plays role of mother,daughter,sister,spouse and same as inlaw.
It has to be taken in holistic spirit co relating to subject n title of the ginan.
Bibi Fatima was co related to both prophet n ALI AS DAUGHTER, WIFE N
his cousin as well. also mother to her children.
at zahiri level it can endless rubbish debate with zero baatin understanding of it.
As ginan carries religous sentiments/dharmik bhavna among st Khojas visavis Farmans.
With past alwaez equating them by clever statement
by pir maabaap for both Imam n appointed pirs.
giving it par status with farman,which is incorrect.so many ginans were withdrawn by concern under full know of MHI.
this was to avoid of tom toming of issue related to it.
REMEMBER ONLY ISMAILI FAITH ONE CAN BE WINNER ON TWO WORD N ZERO OFFERING WITH UNIVERSE AS PRIZE.let try for that rather than blah blah on unwarranted million words n debated.
it is purely a clash of ignorance
If ginan is confined not for reciting and no useless debate should happen on it.
As for word 'D'. an obligatory offering ,ALI as god does accept it all kind
tan,maan aur dhan form from all humans having faith in God and feel to offer him anything.
This word has wider meaning,maybe in Khoja tradition it got distinct standalone status and seen separated to more higher phases of majlis of Khidmat levels.
It evolves to higher phases n also d intent of the giver.
does this ginan has relevance ?
Is this ginan still a part of ginans to be recited and studied presently in JK around the worlds.
many ginan which were totally not in essence of ismailsm/sufism were take n off from circulation by Imam SMS n MHI.
SO IS the case of waje e din by khusraw.
many time pir/dia went overboard n exceeded their brief by being god with making doomsday statement,creation of soul.etc.
They were not ALI/Imam/GOD.
Observation as different levels to any ginan can give rise to anomaly is some verses.
A women wherter noorani or regular plays role of mother,daughter,sister,spouse and same as inlaw.
It has to be taken in holistic spirit co relating to subject n title of the ginan.
Bibi Fatima was co related to both prophet n ALI AS DAUGHTER, WIFE N
his cousin as well. also mother to her children.
at zahiri level it can endless rubbish debate with zero baatin understanding of it.
As ginan carries religous sentiments/dharmik bhavna among st Khojas visavis Farmans.
With past alwaez equating them by clever statement
by pir maabaap for both Imam n appointed pirs.
giving it par status with farman,which is incorrect.so many ginans were withdrawn by concern under full know of MHI.
this was to avoid of tom toming of issue related to it.
REMEMBER ONLY ISMAILI FAITH ONE CAN BE WINNER ON TWO WORD N ZERO OFFERING WITH UNIVERSE AS PRIZE.let try for that rather than blah blah on unwarranted million words n debated.
it is purely a clash of ignorance
If ginan is confined not for reciting and no useless debate should happen on it.
As for word 'D'. an obligatory offering ,ALI as god does accept it all kind
tan,maan aur dhan form from all humans having faith in God and feel to offer him anything.
This word has wider meaning,maybe in Khoja tradition it got distinct standalone status and seen separated to more higher phases of majlis of Khidmat levels.
It evolves to higher phases n also d intent of the giver.
This is a big lie!!! Please show any evidence to prove your point, or else don't say lies!!!nuseri wrote: SO IS the case of waje e din by khusraw.
Wajh-i-din of Nasir Khusraw is one of the finest works of Ismailis that have survived and been preserved, luckily! Wajh-i-din is listed amongst the forthcoming publications by IIS. If it was truly banned, as you wrongfully asserted, MHI wouldn't allow it to be published by IIS.
Here's a list of publications by IIS. Read the last section for the forthcoming publications. And Wajh-i-din is listed as one of them. If you don't have the capacity or the intellect to digest it, then please refrain from reading it!!! But, stop lying!!!
Insha-allah it will be published soon, in english. We will witness it.
http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/pub ... _lores.pdf
Here's another exerpt of Wajh-i-din.
http://simerg.com/literary-readings/pir ... -paradise/
Avtaar means manifestation. All the names you have mentioned were also manifestation of Fanna. Avtaar is of course Islamic. Quran says Allah sent a Manifest Light which is the Imamat.mazhar wrote:
1. According to you, if Syed Imam Shah called himself Avtaar because he elevated his soul to fanna. well, than Hasan Basri, Ba Yazid, Dhunun Misri, Rabia Basri,
Datta Ganj bukhsh, Muinuddin Chisti, Shams Tabriz, mowlana Rumi, Shabaz Qalander, Shah Latif, Sachal Sarmast and so on. Were these spirituals all Avtaars;
but Avtaars of who, Vishnu, shiva, Brahama. There is no concept of Avtaars in Islam.."
But the granth itself has been accepted as Ginanic tradition and has been used as such in the Jamat, so what difference does it make whether he calls himself a Gur or Sayyed. The guidance and wisdom is authoritative.mazhar wrote:
2. In ginanic terminology GUR is a title used for Pirs, others we call syeds.."
I see no problem at all for Allah to assume two roles at the same time. In our tradition Imams are born Imams and therefore the present Imam who is the father to the future Imam exist at the same time, so what is the problem?mazhar wrote:
3.Km, out of 4 stanzas of any given part you are picking up one line out of context for answer. Like in part 108 which is very crucial to philosophy of Ali Allah.
You are trying to answer me last 2 lines , where as I am insisting on first 2 lines. Please look at the formation of first 2 lines. Let me repeat again. This is the story of marriage between Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatima.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR PART 108.
Km, you are deliberately not answering these lines because khoja philosophy of Ali and Allah will be shaken. Now think Allah is asking the hand of Bibi Fatima from Prophet to marry son of Allah. So according to these two lines Ali and Allah are two different entities, FATHER AND SON. HOW YOU WILL ADDRESS THIS PHILOSOPHY? I used the word samnbandi in that context. Km, tell me," yeh rishta kia kahlata hai."
Have you read the Ginan? If not please read it and then make that kind of statement.nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:
does this ginan has relevance ?
Is this ginan still a part of ginans to be recited and studied presently in JK around the worlds.
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/chetwanb.html
Wajh-i-din of Nasir Khusraw is one of the finest works of Ismailis that have survived and been preserved, luckily! Wajh-i-din is listed amongst the forthcoming publications by IIS. If it was truly banned, as you wrongfully asserted, MHI wouldn't allow it to be published by IIS.
I have a copy of Wajh e din of Nasir Khushru which was translated by non-Ismaili author . not only this but all Khshru's books has been translated by this author and printed in same press.
I personally read Wajh e din twice I really impressed with the thoughts of Khushru specially on Imamat, good to know that now IIS has plan to publish it.
agakhani
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1978
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 18 Mar 2015 03:52 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Wajh-i-din of Nasir Khusraw is one of the finest works of Ismailis that have survived and been preserved, luckily! Wajh-i-din is listed amongst the forthcoming publications by IIS. If it was truly banned, as you wrongfully asserted, MHI wouldn't allow it to be published by IIS.
I have a copy of Wajh e din of Nasir Khushru which was translated by non-Ismaili author . not only this but all Khshru's books has been translated by this author and printed in same press.
I personally read Wajh e din twice I really impressed with the thoughts of Khushru specially on Imamat, good to know that now IIS has plan to publish it.
Aghakhani,
Can you write the name of that non Ismaili author as you mentioned and the name of press where Wajh Din was published. Thanx.
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1978
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 18 Mar 2015 03:52 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Wajh-i-din of Nasir Khusraw is one of the finest works of Ismailis that have survived and been preserved, luckily! Wajh-i-din is listed amongst the forthcoming publications by IIS. If it was truly banned, as you wrongfully asserted, MHI wouldn't allow it to be published by IIS.
I have a copy of Wajh e din of Nasir Khushru which was translated by non-Ismaili author . not only this but all Khshru's books has been translated by this author and printed in same press.
I personally read Wajh e din twice I really impressed with the thoughts of Khushru specially on Imamat, good to know that now IIS has plan to publish it.
Aghakhani,
Can you write the name of that non Ismaili author as you mentioned and the name of press where Wajh Din was published. Thanx.
kmaherali
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10349
Posted: 17 Mar 2015 11:00 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
3.Km, out of 4 stanzas of any given part you are picking up one line out of context for answer. Like in part 108 which is very crucial to philosophy of Ali Allah.
You are trying to answer me last 2 lines , where as I am insisting on first 2 lines. Please look at the formation of first 2 lines. Let me repeat again. This is the story of marriage between Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatima.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR PART 108.
Km, you are deliberately not answering these lines because khoja philosophy of Ali and Allah will be shaken. Now think Allah is asking the hand of Bibi Fatima from Prophet to marry son of Allah. So according to these two lines Ali and Allah are two different entities, FATHER AND SON. HOW YOU WILL ADDRESS THIS PHILOSOPHY? I used the word samnbandi in that context. Km, tell me," yeh rishta kia kahlata hai."
I see no problem at all for Allah to assume two roles at the same time. In our tradition Imams are born Imams and therefore the present Imam who is the father to the future Imam exist at the same time, so what is the problem?
Reply from Mazhar,
Kmaherali, there is problem, you complicated the philosophy. God is father and God is son at same time, now who is the mother! Is it not like father, Mary and son
story according your assertion.
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10349
Posted: 17 Mar 2015 11:00 pm Post subject:
mazhar wrote:
3.Km, out of 4 stanzas of any given part you are picking up one line out of context for answer. Like in part 108 which is very crucial to philosophy of Ali Allah.
You are trying to answer me last 2 lines , where as I am insisting on first 2 lines. Please look at the formation of first 2 lines. Let me repeat again. This is the story of marriage between Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatima.
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR PART 108.
Km, you are deliberately not answering these lines because khoja philosophy of Ali and Allah will be shaken. Now think Allah is asking the hand of Bibi Fatima from Prophet to marry son of Allah. So according to these two lines Ali and Allah are two different entities, FATHER AND SON. HOW YOU WILL ADDRESS THIS PHILOSOPHY? I used the word samnbandi in that context. Km, tell me," yeh rishta kia kahlata hai."
I see no problem at all for Allah to assume two roles at the same time. In our tradition Imams are born Imams and therefore the present Imam who is the father to the future Imam exist at the same time, so what is the problem?
Reply from Mazhar,
Kmaherali, there is problem, you complicated the philosophy. God is father and God is son at same time, now who is the mother! Is it not like father, Mary and son
story according your assertion.
agakhani
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1978
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 17 Mar 2015 04:05 am Post subject:
Quote:
You are not explaing my crucial questions.
Your question is not crucial but my answer will be crucial for you I know you will not accept it but since you are forcing me then I am giving you any way!
Why I said my answer will be crucial? because brother following verses are also telling that 'ALI SAHI ALLAH"!!!! believe it or not!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTHAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALLA SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR............PART 108.
First let me make it simple translation in short:-
As per the above ginanic verses and according to Syed Imam Shah.
Allah say to Prophet Mohammad you have daughter (Fatima) and in I
( Allah ) have son ( HAZARAT ALI ) as her husband.
You and I both are creator of whole universe (but)
Imamat and piratan will start from their both kids!
I.e pirs and Imams will come from Ali and Fatima family.
Go ahead find me a single pir or any Imam who is not from AALE NABI or AULADE ALI!
Go ahead and find me at least one . Either any pir or any Imam!
FYI :Pir is from Prophet side Shah is from H.Ali side and when we make together the word become "PIR SHAH"
Also there is a hidden meaning in above verses which is as follows:-
Wah! Syed Imam Shah wah! Me sadke jawa! only in 4 lines you explained a millions sentences but for those who can understand ginans properly and find out hidden and ruhani meetings from them. Mazhar bro you just can make only simple translation of ginans but you do not have that knowledge or guts to find hidden meanings.
So let me explain it to you.
Considering H. Ali as his own son! ( this is just allegory but it has big significance in it! to teach a lesson in simple way most of ginans are created that way, so that we can understand the ginans easily) Allah tell that there is no different between him and H. Ali. (s.a.) they both are same , they both have same blood like son and his dad should have "Son like a dad" they are equal!! . Are not Syed Imam Shah try to tell that ....
"Ali Sahi Allah" yes, he is bro Mazhar! :" Are E to wohi bat aa gai! Wohi Ali is the Allah : which you are not accepting since you joined in this forum!! therefore I told you that my answer will crucial for you not your question!!!??
Reply to Aghakhani,
You shot yourself in your foot, it is not my fault. In your translation of part 108 of Momin Chetamni, you wrote,
" Allah say to Prophet Mohammad you have daughter (Fatima) and in I
( Allah ) have son ( HAZARAT ALI ) as her husband.
You and I both are creator of whole universe (but)
Imamat and piratan will start from their both kids!"
This part is related to marraige of Bibi Fatima and Mowla Ali. Your assertion is that Allah said to Prophet, I have son ( Hazrat Ali ) as her husband. Your this statement negates the Surah Ikhlas which we recite in 6th part of Du'a. If Allah has/had son, who is the mother of son. This is a kind of story of Holy Father, Mary, and Christ. Your other mistake is as you wrote," You and I both are creator of whole universe." Creator of universe is Allah and not Prophet as His co partner.
You wrote, "Considering H. Ali as his own son! ( this is just allegory but it has big significance in it! to teach a lesson in simple way most of ginans are created that way, so that we can understand the ginans easily) Allah tell that there is no different between him and H. Ali. (s.a.) they both are same , they both have same blood like son and his dad should have "Son like a dad" they are equal!!"
Aghakhani, again you are negating your assertion that Ali is Allah. you wrote, " Considering Hazrat Ali as His own son-------further you mentioned son like a dad, and they are equal." YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO ENTITIES WHICH ARE EQUAL. You are un intentionally talking of DUALITY. Two God theory.
May be one God go on vacation and other will be incharge of universe and vice vesa.
Ashraf bhai, teri tou watt lag gai.
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1978
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 17 Mar 2015 04:05 am Post subject:
Quote:
You are not explaing my crucial questions.
Your question is not crucial but my answer will be crucial for you I know you will not accept it but since you are forcing me then I am giving you any way!
Why I said my answer will be crucial? because brother following verses are also telling that 'ALI SAHI ALLAH"!!!! believe it or not!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTHAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALLA SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHWAAR............PART 108.
First let me make it simple translation in short:-
As per the above ginanic verses and according to Syed Imam Shah.
Allah say to Prophet Mohammad you have daughter (Fatima) and in I
( Allah ) have son ( HAZARAT ALI ) as her husband.
You and I both are creator of whole universe (but)
Imamat and piratan will start from their both kids!
I.e pirs and Imams will come from Ali and Fatima family.
Go ahead find me a single pir or any Imam who is not from AALE NABI or AULADE ALI!
Go ahead and find me at least one . Either any pir or any Imam!
FYI :Pir is from Prophet side Shah is from H.Ali side and when we make together the word become "PIR SHAH"
Also there is a hidden meaning in above verses which is as follows:-
Wah! Syed Imam Shah wah! Me sadke jawa! only in 4 lines you explained a millions sentences but for those who can understand ginans properly and find out hidden and ruhani meetings from them. Mazhar bro you just can make only simple translation of ginans but you do not have that knowledge or guts to find hidden meanings.
So let me explain it to you.
Considering H. Ali as his own son! ( this is just allegory but it has big significance in it! to teach a lesson in simple way most of ginans are created that way, so that we can understand the ginans easily) Allah tell that there is no different between him and H. Ali. (s.a.) they both are same , they both have same blood like son and his dad should have "Son like a dad" they are equal!! . Are not Syed Imam Shah try to tell that ....
"Ali Sahi Allah" yes, he is bro Mazhar! :" Are E to wohi bat aa gai! Wohi Ali is the Allah : which you are not accepting since you joined in this forum!! therefore I told you that my answer will crucial for you not your question!!!??
Reply to Aghakhani,
You shot yourself in your foot, it is not my fault. In your translation of part 108 of Momin Chetamni, you wrote,
" Allah say to Prophet Mohammad you have daughter (Fatima) and in I
( Allah ) have son ( HAZARAT ALI ) as her husband.
You and I both are creator of whole universe (but)
Imamat and piratan will start from their both kids!"
This part is related to marraige of Bibi Fatima and Mowla Ali. Your assertion is that Allah said to Prophet, I have son ( Hazrat Ali ) as her husband. Your this statement negates the Surah Ikhlas which we recite in 6th part of Du'a. If Allah has/had son, who is the mother of son. This is a kind of story of Holy Father, Mary, and Christ. Your other mistake is as you wrote," You and I both are creator of whole universe." Creator of universe is Allah and not Prophet as His co partner.
You wrote, "Considering H. Ali as his own son! ( this is just allegory but it has big significance in it! to teach a lesson in simple way most of ginans are created that way, so that we can understand the ginans easily) Allah tell that there is no different between him and H. Ali. (s.a.) they both are same , they both have same blood like son and his dad should have "Son like a dad" they are equal!!"
Aghakhani, again you are negating your assertion that Ali is Allah. you wrote, " Considering Hazrat Ali as His own son-------further you mentioned son like a dad, and they are equal." YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO ENTITIES WHICH ARE EQUAL. You are un intentionally talking of DUALITY. Two God theory.
May be one God go on vacation and other will be incharge of universe and vice vesa.
Ashraf bhai, teri tou watt lag gai.
At the time of Hazarat Ali's marriage his father Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam. Hence there were two mazhars of Allah - Father the actual and son the potential.mazhar wrote:Kmaherali, there is problem, you complicated the philosophy. God is father and God is son at same time, now who is the mother! Is it not like father, Mary and son
story according your assertion.
You are making a big deal out of nothing!
No I am not negating that "ALI IS THE ALLAH" but I still believe that even with more trust.ghakhani, again you are negating your assertion that Ali is Allah.
But I am giving you more proofs one after another, so that some Munafiq peoples including you in this forum can understand it better. First I provided you some farmans of our previous Imams which were clearly says that Ali is the Allah? and then after I gave proof from old dua which also clearly shows that "Ali Sahi Aallah" and now I am giving you proof from ginans!!?
lekin Afsos ke phir bhi tuje samaz me nahi aata! I have hundreds ginans in which you can find these!!! would you like to know??
