quran as mentioned in preamble

[mazhar]

With reference to a posting by ismaili103 on Momin chetamani on dated Feb17, 2015, I have few questions and need explaination, hope 103 or any one else can answer my queries.
Is syed Imam shah included in the list of our Pirs. In some books, he is mentioned as pir.
He requested Imam of the time to bestow on him piratan, which Imam refused and asked him to continue the work of da'wat in Gujrat. It is said, he was annoyed and quit Ismaili Tariqa.
He than with his son Noor Muhammad shah started a seperate line in pirana Gujrat.
I read all 630 quartets, and found wrong information.
Was Khoja community present at time of Prophet Muhammad. Please read parts 110, 120, 122. ( deejo dheej mahen khoja chaar )
Do any one knows the history of Khaliq, khuda bukhsh, Sadiq, and Abdur Rasul. Khuda Bukhsh is not an Arabic name. Ref. to part 123. ( arabi bhkhiya mahen tee hatta,
Tee tou Gujrati mahen kida nirdhar ). According to history, Prophet never gave 4 slaves in dowry to Bibi Fatima! Please read both Shia and Sunni sources.
According to Syed Imam shah the progeny of those khojas continued till today. Who are they in this modern times. Part 156.
Imam shah negates the the philosophy of re incarnation. Part 183, though mostly khojas still believe in re incarnation.
There is cotradiction in part 199.Here Imam shah says, Sat gur noor made khojas and from there Sat panth started.Also tradition of daswand started by pir Sat gur noor,
this is totally in contradiction with parts 120, 122, 142, 147.
There is lot of repeatetion from parts 276 - 343.
Hindu terminologies are used a lot.
He mentions Pir Shams Sabzwari as Shams Tabrezi. Part 204. Looks like he had taken account of Pir Shams from the book ' Gulzar e Shams Tabrezi.' Ditto same account. The author of Gulzar e Shams Tabrezi did made mistake as writing Pir Shams from Tabrez.
In part 102, 116 it is mentioned that when Prophet ascended to Ma'raj, order came from ' Ale janab ' do not worry, ( about the marraige of Bibi Fatima ). Who is Ale janab, is that meant Mowla Ali. If yes, than it is suppose to be same story like God and mother Mary!
But again syed Imam Shah contradicts in part 108,109, Allah says to Prophet that girl( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband is in my house. Is this not a case of samdhi rishta?
There has been a lot of discussion on this site that rank of Mowla Ali is above Prophet, but Imam Shah said,"Te ALI MUHAMMAD eek chhe".
In part 160, he mentions Haztat Hassan as Imam. with Imam Hussain.

[Admin]

No link to the thread you are posting in.

I would suggest you edit this post and repost in the appropriate section under ginan or post-Alamut or whatever.

[mazhar]

Some people are irritated with word ALLAH, if they do not believe in ALLAH
they are not muslims, if they are not muslims, they are not Ismailis, if they are not Ismailis, they cann't be khojas. They intentionally or unintentionally in Du'a use the words ALLAH, and Allahuma given by Imam of the time.

[Admin]

Please try to be less rigid. Allah is a word for God for us in the same way other may call Him by various names. Hazar Imam has already explain that we should not allow people to think that their God is different of our God.

So why stick to variance in vocabulary. let people use the name they prefer be it Manitou, Yahwe, God, Allah, Origin, Essence, Ali, Vichnou etc.. as far as they know it is the same God and there is only one God.

So far no one on this Forum is saying they do not believe in God or in one God, the only difference is by what name (or absence of name0) one calls Him.

[kmaherali]

Do you think when a religious leader speaks in Islamic venue listeners are dumb..

Of course the listeners are not dumb, but they are of varied backgrounds or of different interpretations, hence the need to be able to speak in a language that everyone can understand. For example if you have kids and adults in a same place, then you will speak in a language that kids can understand and not that of adults.

What you have to pass exam to be in audience to listen to MHI tell truth about his beliefs?.

Yes, in all esoteric traditions whether they are Islamic or non-Islamic they do screen people who can join them. You need to satisfy some requirements.

"Capacity to understand" is buzzword used too many times.

Capacity to understand is crictical as it can lead to terrible misunderstanding and confusion. As you yourself indicated: "If he says "I am Allah" to Shariati either shariati would deem him crazy or he would put himself in danger."

[kmaherali]

Even in front of Sufi he would not dare to say "I am Allah".
Do you know any Leader of Sufi Tariqa clams that "He is Allah"..

In Sufism there is a notion of Fanna Fi Allah. All Sufis recognise that as a goal of existence. Hence authentic mursheeds will be individuals who themselves have become Fanna, i.e., one with God. They will tell their murids about being one with Allah in order to impress their authority and hence be obeyed. Mansur for example, claimed that he was Truth -Allah.

Was Prophet a Sharati or Marfati? Any proof that he observed Batini Islam?
If he did please post Quranic Ayas and Ahadith on how to be Batini Muslim.

There is a famous hadith qudsi which states: God said: I could not be contained in the heavens and earth but can be contained in the heart of a true believer.

If we consider the Prophet to be the paragon of piety, then the Prophet himself was Marfati because the whole of God was in his heart or you could say he was God himself. If you read the Sira of the Prophet you will note that he used to spend considerable time at Mt. Hira for contemplation and meditation even before the revelations.

The Qur’an states, Verily your Lord knows that you [Muhammad] keep vigil nearly two-thirds of the night, and sometimes half of it or a third of it, you and a group of those that are with you. [Qur'an, LXXIII, 20]

For more you may want to go to:
http://www.sufischool.org/sufism/history.html

The Prophet is considered as the Primal Mursheed universally across all tariqahs of Sufism.

There are Quranic verses and haidths about the need to follow a guide at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... h+ahl+bayt

[kmaherali]

Mauwlana's life is in 3 stages.

- raw [kham] - it was mostly his upbringing and youth.
- ripe[cooked] - from youth, before meeting Shams [that was the time when he mastered the knowledge of exoteric, the Qur'an and other philosophies]
- burnt[sookhtan] - after encountering and falling in love with Shams and apprehending the truth and secrete treasures of the God.

Thanks for sharing your profound knowledge and insight into the life of Rumi. Please explain the significance of the first two parts of his life. As far as I know, most scholarship about Rumi is focussed upon his life after meeting Shams.

[tret]

Thanks for sharing your profound knowledge and insight into the life of Rumi.

However, sarcastic; I will take it as complement. Thank you.

Please explain the significance of the first two parts of his life. As far as I know, most scholarship about Rumi is focussed upon his life after meeting Shams.

I don't understand the relevance of you question? You needed to focus on the question I asked you.

I am deducing it from his own verse and scholars agree on that. so are you implying that the 2 first stages of rum, he was iletterate and had no knowledge of the religion at all?

Before meeting shams, rumi was a well respected instructor who was teaching religious matters and know the Quran and it's tafseer Which means even in that stage (1 and 2), he was well versed than you and I.

[agakhani]

Tret or Mazhar,
Unfortunately you do not accept any references other than Quran so I have to give it.


Now ask this question to your self have you ever accepted those farmans which you asked me to provide on Ali Sahi Allah" and when I provided it then you make a joke on it.

" in this situation when you do not have trust on Imams farmans then,what are You?

[agakhani]

To ZZNoor,

By the way if you or any one else wants yo know when this will happen? Then should start to read ginans.

Are you really want to know the date, year, day, or even time when the ten paras will be introduced? start to read ginans, I bet you will not disappointed! I promise you.[/b] and if you do not understands ginans then why should you shy?

[kmaherali]

Thanks for sharing your profound knowledge and insight into the life of Rumi.

However, sarcastic; I will take it as complement. Thank you.

The remark was meant to show respect for your knowledge in contrast to your disrespect by assuming I was ignorant about Rumi’s life and your bizarre remark about imitation!

I don't understand the relevance of you question? You needed to focus on the question I asked you.

Of course if you mentioned the first 2 stages of his life, one would assume you had some kind of relevance in your mind, but of course you hadn’t!

I am deducing it from his own verse and scholars agree on that. so are you implying that the 2 first stages of rum, he was iletterate and had no knowledge of the religion at all?

Before meeting shams, rumi was a well respected instructor who was teaching religious matters and know the Quran and it's tafseer Which means even in that stage (1 and 2), he was well versed than you and I.

Rumi’s life before Shams would be completely meaningless and of no significance at all. If he hadn’t met Shams, then perhaps he would have lived rest of his life in Konya as a respected scholar or a Mulla. He would certainly have not been as universally known today without Shams’ influence. There have been many many respected scholars who passed away without any trace of their knowledge known.
Rumi’s life and his wisdom only assumes significance after meeting Shams. His whole life and previous knowledge was transformed into enlightened wisdom after being enlightened by Shams. After meeting Shams he felt all his previous knowledge was of no significance in comparison with what he got from Shams. Hence his disdain for empty philosophical/theological speculation. Annemarie Schimmel remarks: “In Fihi ma fihi, a number of his remarks concerning philosophers (a species he disliked thoroughly) are preserved.”
According to Rumi reason and intellect by itself is not sufficient to arrive at the truth. Annemarie Schimmel says about Rumi: “Reason is also like the police officer who is able to guide the seeker to the king’s gate but is not himself allowed inside.”
This is what I meant by saying “Rumi hated it”. So I hate it as well and so should every one of us on this path. It is not imitation as you imply, it is a sound principle to adopt. We should not use our reason/intellect for idle speculation but rather to use it under the guidance of the Pir to arrive at the truth.

[zznoor]

To ZZNoor,

By the way if you or any one else wants yo know when this will happen? Then should start to read ginans.

Are you really want to know the date, year, day, or even time when the ten paras will be introduced? start to read ginans, I bet you will not disappointed! I promise you.[/b] and if you do not understands ginans then why should you shy?

I am not interested in reading Ginan nor I am interested in knowing what is going to happen tomorrow.

What Allah has willed for future will happen and nobody can change it.

[zznoor]

Those who say Quran Majid is altered, has addition or entire chapters are missing without proof, Allah has warning for them

[Shakir 2:174] Surely those who conceal any part of the Book [Th Quran] that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.

[Shakir 2:159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book [The Quran ] for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse [laanat], and those who curse shall curse them (too).

Those who passed away making such claim has lost opportunity to repent.
Those who insist should take warning from Allah.

[tret]

kmaherali -

All you said, I never disagreed otherwise; but here's the point I was trying to make. Let me repeat one more tiem.

Why Rumi? Why not someone else, in Damishq? Why Shams set quest in search of someone [Rumi?]

Of course the first 2 stages of Rumi's life was important to get him to the last stage of his life. Pay attention to what he says. It's allegorized as cooking a dish. First stage is raw, then it's cooked, then finally it burns. You can't get 'burned', without going through the previous stages of being 'raw' and 'cooked'. Therefore, the first 2 stages of Rumi's life was important to get him to the last. You are missing the point and unless you are too in the last stage of your life [same as Rumi was], then you are imitating by saing 'I hate it'! And most of the time imitators are hypocrites. (No pun intended)


Now, you are claiming that the 2 first stage of Rumi was completely useless; well, yes once he reached the third [final] stage, the first 2 stages became obsolete. [Remember the analogy of Airplane, Terminal and destination?]. The first 2 stages of Rumi's life was necessary for him to get to 3rd stage. Once you traverse these early stages, then it becomes obsolete to you.

Now, let me ask you the question: Are you at the same stage where Rumi was [his last stage of life, the 3rd stage according to him]??? Unless you arrived at the last stage, you are imitating. That's my point. And I don't see anything manifested as it is very clear in Rumi's work. Please don't compare yourself with someone that you aren't even close to. In that case that's completely imitation!!! And those who imitate, are no better than what you label them as shariati.

[kmaherali]

Now, let me ask you the question: Are you at the same stage where Rumi was [his last stage of life, the 3rd stage according to him]??? Unless you arrived at the last stage, you are imitating. That's my point. And I don't see anything manifested as it is very clear in Rumi's work. Please don't compare yourself with someone that you aren't even close to. In that case that's completely imitation!!! And those who imitate, are no better than what you label them as shariati.

I don't think we can make judgement about anyone's faith. What we can say is that we have been accepted as murids of the Perfect Teacher just as Rumi was accepted by Shams. The whole argument I am trying to make is that once we are under the guidance of the Mursheed, we surrender our intellects according to his directions and wisdom and not to rely entirely on our own reason to derive at the truth.

Hence to engage in idle philosophical speculation can lead to intellectual vanity regardles of the level of faith.
As stated in a verse of the Ginan verse:

ejee ajaajeel feerashtaa buzarag kaheeye
ane budheeva(n)t kaheeye tesaa
chhatrees karodd keetaabaa paddeeyaa
pann bheetar bhed na paayaa..............illaahee............6

The angel Azazil is regarded as very honoured and is also considered to be very intelligent.
He read and studied thirty six crore books but did not realise the essence of the interior (soul, heart).

We cannot really compare ourselves to the Rumi's first two stages because he was not a mureed. However we can compare ourselves to him at the third stage because we are mureeds just like him.

[tret]

Dear kmaherali -

I asked the question deliberately; and I know one can not judge anyone's faith. But, I hope you could see my point as why?

I couldn't agree more. But, what does it mean to "surrender or submit to the Imam of the time"? That's to receive the teachings and guidance of the Imam of the Time. [Doctrine of Ta'lim]. This knowledge is transmitted through ta'yid to Imam's Hujjat and then through instructions to the murid. Today, we are so lucky that we receive instructions from MHI through no mediation. So, for you to imply quite personal inquiry is not correct, by saying 'i hate it' just because Rumi said so.

Please explain what "idle philosophical speculation" is? According to Tusi, sufis's order is based on "speculative philosophy", where as Ismailism is based on Doctrine of Ta'lim. If you refer to articulation of our Doctrine as "idle philosophy", I think you need to rework your framework of belief system. Remember, knowledge of Hujjat/Dai is knowledge of the Imam, because this knowledge is transmitted through Ta'yid, which you and I can't apprehend by logic and reasoning. We can only receive them through instructions. Rumi was blessed soul who could apprehend that knowledge through ta'yid from Shams. Ours is to seek instruction and wait for ta'yid to be granted. We can't simply discard personal inquiry, as emphasized by MHI.

[agakhani]

I am not interested in reading Ginan nor I am interested in knowing what is going to happen tomorrow.

What Allah has willed for future will happen and nobody can change it.

ginans, farmans are just fine for me!

[agakhani]

Those who passed away making such claim has lost opportunity to repent.
Those who insist should take warning from Allah.

Forget about for those and their opportunities, who has already passed away! believe me they are just fine in heaven with Allah so nobody should worry about them any more

[nuseri]

To tret: Ya Ali Madad.

What hAS RUMI'S BELOW PAR UTTERING to do with topic head.
It is below par word and job of articulation done at mediocre level.
Same was/is the status of those who translated n explained Quran, they assume themselves as highly informed.
1. An qualitative Sufi uses much better analogy for their souls n word whilst expressing tawhid. Here rumi is giving example of food( vegetable/meat).
he could have done by saying stream becoming river n later river mingling with ocean as one.
the words translated may by fool. the word shookthan may have other meaning then burnt.
In poetic idiom burnt can mean burning one's finger in some thing or attempt.
Like having a nasty experience of sort .
If said by heart,it could 'Inflamed" ,because when burnt the original burnt effect shows as curse marks on body of food while inflame where mean to extinct oneself with divine, that fool looked to shams rather than ALI .

[tret]

To tret: Ya Ali Madad.

What hAS RUMI'S BELOW PAR UTTERING to do with topic head.
It is below par word and job of articulation done at mediocre level.
Same was/is the status of those who translated n explained Quran, they assume themselves as highly informed.
1. An qualitative Sufi uses much better analogy for their souls n word whilst expressing tawhid. Here rumi is giving example of food( vegetable/meat).
he could have done by saying stream becoming river n later river mingling with ocean as one.
the words translated may by fool. the word shookthan may have other meaning then burnt.
In poetic idiom burnt can mean burning one's finger in some thing or attempt.
Like having a nasty experience of sort .
If said by heart,it could 'Inflamed" ,because when burnt the original burnt effect shows as curse marks on body of food while inflame where mean to extinct oneself with divine, that fool looked to shams rather than ALI .

I am sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[kmaherali]

Dear kmaherali -

I asked the question deliberately; and I know one can not judge anyone's faith. But, I hope you could see my point as why? .

I can see the wisdom of Shams choosing Rumi. He would not have been able to articulate his wisdom and thought in poetry and other works after being enlightened by Shams, if he did not have the necessary background knowledge of the Qur’an and familiarity with poetry generally. There is a saying that when a disciple is ready, the master appears. That was exactly what happened to Rumi.
However I do not see why a person should be at Rumi’s level to realize that idle philosophical speculation is not helpful. One can simply accept that as wisdom from the Mursheed.

So, for you to imply quite personal inquiry is not correct, by saying 'i hate it' just because Rumi said so.

I never implied that personal inquiry is not correct. Please note carefully what I said: “We should not use our reason/intellect for idle speculation but rather to use it under the guidance of the Pir to arrive at the truth.” The correct use of intellect is fundamental in our tariqah.
By idle philosophical speculation I mean to discuss, raise issues and ask questions without the intent to seek the truth but rather for the purpose of idle curiosity, intellectual fancy and vanity and to appear clever. In other words for the sake of convenience as opposed to conviction.

[zznoor]

Those who passed away making such claim has lost opportunity to repent.
Those who insist should take warning from Allah.

Forget about for those and their opportunities, who has already passed away! believe me they are just fine in heaven with Allah so nobody should worry about them any more

As per Islamic teachings nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds. Those who ascribe lies to Quran and deceive people will surely be punished.

[kmaherali]

As per Islamic teachings nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds.

Please can you explain this by reference to any sources. It is very strange!

[agakhani]

As per Islamic teachings nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds. Those who ascribe lies to Quran and deceive people will surely be punished.

Is this quoted in Quran? ha? Are they still in graves? if yes then so far peoples should had founds millions million dead Muslims bodies every where!!!!

As I wrote earlier why you worry about others? just worry about your self

[Admin]

nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds.

I think I heard sounds of Dandia Raas inside some graves...

I am glad our Allah is not your Allah who seems to be very cruel, our Allah is Rahim and Raheman, the most Merciful.

Thanks God we do not believe in what you believe and you do not believe in what we believe.

[zznoor]

nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds.

I think I heard sounds of Dandia Raas inside some graves...

I am glad our Allah is not your Allah who seems to be very cruel, our Allah is Rahim and Raheman, the most Merciful.

Thanks God we do not believe in what you believe and you do not believe in what we believe.

Islamic beliefs about death has not changed since the death of Prophet.
It is not matter of JOKE.

Kmaherali

Please can you explain this by reference to any sources. It is very strange!

I do not want to divert the thread, Can I PM you?

Agakhani

As I wrote earlier why you worry about others? just worry about your self

I do not get personal with you and you also should not get personal
let us have discussion with respect.

[kmaherali]

[Kmaherali

Please can you explain this by reference to any sources. It is very strange!

I do not want to divert the thread, Can I PM you?

How about if we continue the discussion on the thread: "Heaven and Hell" at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 6&start=60

[ShamsB]

Those who passed away making such claim has lost opportunity to repent.
Those who insist should take warning from Allah.

Forget about for those and their opportunities, who has already passed away! believe me they are just fine in heaven with Allah so nobody should worry about them any more

As per Islamic teachings nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds. Those who ascribe lies to Quran and deceive people will surely be punished.

ZZnoor - can you make sure they bury Katrina Kaif and Nargis Fakhri in the same grave as me?

I can be their hell and they can be my heaven?

Shams

[nuseri]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

Please give the reference from Quran Ayats only where it clearly mentions
that soul is confined to body after death in the grave n in transit to final day?

[tret]

As per Islamic teachings nobody is in heaven or hell. They are still in graves enjoying or being punished for their deeds

zznoor - Do you actually realize that the two above sentences are actually contradicting each other????

What's the purpose of heaven or hell? apparently for men to be punished[in hell] or to be rewarded [in heaven].
So, if -- according to you -- no one is in hell or heaven, then how come man are punished or rewarded in the grave??