quran as mentioned in preamble

[tret]

sorry I do not know about Ismailis from central Asia, they have baitul Khayal practice or not? the last time I heard that they do not have, please correct me if I am wrong.

You are correct! The notion of baitulkhayal was specific to khoja community and was never part of central asian jama'at. There was a wa'az on this topic. The essence and moral of baitulkhayal is to do the zikr [or remembrance of Imam]. that's in a nutshell the essence of baitulkhayal. And bol [if i understand correctly, and please correct me if i am wrong], is a kind of promise to be firm at baitulkhayal and exercise the baitulkhayal regularly at the specified time [4 to 5 AM], for example.

So, if you look at it essentially, one can do true zikr at any time and doesn't have to be at baitulkhayal. On the contrary, if someone promises Imam that he would do baitulkhayal and then he doesn't, then instead of doing something good, he breaks the promise.

So, it doesn't mean that other communities who doesn't do baitulkhayal don't do zikr of the Imam.

[Admin]

Zikr and Baytul Khayal Ibadat are two different matter. Open a new thread if you want to discuss this. Here we are not discussing this subject. Stick to Quran as mention in the Preamble of the Ismaili Constitution.

"Zikr Karo, Bandagi mango"

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:
the word MHI USED BY HIM AS 'MAZAR E DITH ILAHI'.
It is interesting ,a senior scholar told me that meaning of mazhar is manifest(zahir
/pyhisical appearance and ilahi is the one to whom a person can pray to.
I wish some body connect other two words 'e dith'. please
use of brand n time pass name Allah is not even needed to a true believer of his word.

[mazhar]

About Imam Mustawda:
In Fatimid period literature, our dais have mentioned various darajaat or ranks of Imamat. On top is Imam muqeem, Natiq, Assas, Mustaqqar, Mustawda.
They also discussed Hazrat Abu Talib as Imam e Muqeem, Prophet Muhammad as Natiq, Mowla Ali as Assas, Hazrat hassan as Imam mustawda, and Hazrat Hussain as
Imam Mustaqqar. At a time Natiq, Assas, Mustaqqar, and Mustawda all were present, how they worked out in their capacities? My question was about Imam Mustawda with reference to Hazrat Hassan. Before Fatimid period Ismaili history is obscure. We do not have reliable sources to investigate. Before Fatimid Caliphat Hazrat Hassan was
considered as Imam Mustaqqar .Even Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq in their sermons mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam Mustaqqar. According to Ismaili philosophy,
the Nass of Imamat should pass on to eldest son ( with some exceptional cases, that's why in 1975 Paris conference ' pidar noor wa pisar noor' philosophy was with drawn).
Do we have any proof that Mowla Ali passed the Nass on Imam Hussain when eldest son was still alive? Musta'lean Ismailis, Isna a'sharies, and many sunni sects consider Hazrat Hassan as Imam after Mowla Ali. MSMS has mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam in his memoirs.( pl. don't mention that memoirs was only for non ismailis).
During Fatimid period, question arose that because Hazrat Hassan surrendered Caliphat to Amir Mua'wiyya, there fore he can not be counted in lineage of Imamat As our dais
were wel versed in Quran, Hadith, Jurisprudence, History, and literature, discussed the surrender of Caliphat by Hazrat Hassan and came up with the idea of Imam Mustawda.
Mustawda means Na'aib ( assistant ),Trustee. In this case Imam Mustaqqar give his some authority to Imam Mustawda to act on behalf of Imam Mustaqqar. In Ismaili history
we do not have any other such example, in my view it was an exceptional case again. The word HUJJAT means proof. For general information, the word Hujjat in Quran is use
4 times alone and with derivatives total 7 times. The word Imam is used 2 times alone and with derivatives total 12 times. The word noor is used 24 times alone and with derivatives total 49 times. The word HUJJAT is used in our Du'a for Imam e Zamaan. In first part we say " wa alla Hujjatil Amr, Saheb i zamaan i wal Asar". In my very first posting, I requested readers of this site to learn meaning of Du'a, so that we shall be able to under stand the dogmas and principles of Ismaili philosophy. In my opinion the word Hujjat can be used only for Imam according to Du'a, until Imam gives this title ( not power ) to some one. The difference between Imam Mustawda and Pir is that Imam mustawda can carry work any where or in any part of the world but a Pir is given a special territory to work within. Please note this is my personal opinion.

[mazhar]

Aghakhani wrote for Tret,
Behra aagey ganna
Andha aagey nachina
Bhens aagey bhagwat
These idioms apply to Tret.
Aghakhani I just say give respect and take respect.
Let me tell you, these above idioms apply on you. I want to add one more for you.
NAACH NA AAWEY KAHEY AANGAN TEERA.

[tret]

Aghakhani wrote for Tret,
Behra aagey ganna
Andha aagey nachina
Bhens aagey bhagwat
These idioms apply to Tret.
Aghakhani I just say give respect and take respect.
Let me tell you, these above idioms apply on you. I want to add one more for you.
NAACH NA AAWEY KAHEY AANGAN TEERA.

Dear Mazhar,

I have ignored this particular user long time ago. And most often I don't even bother replying to his abusive posts. Because, in order to response to his post, I have to get down to his level so he understands, and I don't want to do that. After all, everyone reflects their own personality, personal and family values, their intellectual level and he surely does exhibit his.

[tret]

Zikr and Baytul Khayal Ibadat are two different matter."

I don't want to extend this topic anymore. Since this topic was brought up, I just wanted to reflect on that. But, I'd be curious to know what's the essence of baitulkhayal, if it's not zikr and remembrance of the Imam??


I just want to clarify one thing. There are some participants who believes that I am a member of IIS. I am not sure what leads him/her to believe so?? I'd like to know...

Let me clarify it. I am in no way affiliated with IIS -- I wish I was, and I take it as a complement -- I don't believe I am qualified enough to be part of IIS. However, I am very interested in the publication of IIS and always look forward for their new publications. I am doing voluntary work for Imamati institutions whenever/where ever I can. But in no way I am paid financially by Imamate institutions. I am getting self fulfillment and moral satisfaction from the voluntary work that I do. People can believe whatever they wish; they even believe Ali is Allah. Sure enough they can believe that I work for IIS. Even there are other group of people who believe elephant is the god and like them there are thousand other communities who believe in all kinds of stuff.

[kmaherali]

Can you please repost the two farmaans of 1966?
How can you conclude from Paris conference resolution that "Mazhar of Allah" [locus of Manifestation of God] is Allah?
If Mazhar of Allah was indeed Allah, then why the use of Mazhar?

You have asked me to post the Farmans twice! I wonder if you read them at all. Here we go again….

Please put it here. I can't find'em!

I am reposting what I mentioned in my previous post to Mazhar.

As you are a staunch Ismaili and who follows the Farman of the Imam, consider the following Farmans:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

If the Imam himself says that he is Malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic Ayat that he is also Rabin naas (the Lord of the People) and Elahin naas (God of the People)?

In another Farman explaining the notion of Esoteric Islam (Sufism) MHI said:

"Do you know who was Al Hallaj? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me who was Al Hallaj?
(One spiritual child answered, Mansoor Al Hallaj ) Hazar Imam asked
"What was his main aim in life?"

(The same spiritual child replied, To be one with Allah and further added that Mansoor achieved the status of Fanna fillah and said An al Haq )

My beloved spiritual children,

The question I asked was difficult. It was a very difficult question because it did not concern our history, but it concerned a concept. A concept of the practice of Islam which is close to our concept, which is the concept of spirituality and Al Hallaj became a martyr because he believed that he had elevated his soul, that he had sufficiently eliminated all worldly matters, so that his soul should be identified with the Oneness with the Universal Unity, and he claimed publicly, An al Haq which means I am the Truth, and the Muslims of the time treated him as a heretic and he was put to death as a heretic. The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"

If Mansur could elevate himself and become one with Allah, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider as the Pure in our Dua would not be one with Allah as well? Try to understand Sufism, then you will realize the status of the Imam. [/quote]

Below is the discussion wherein I explained how the Mazhar of Allah is Allah from a practical point of view.

Then how do you come to conclusion that Imam is Allah/The Transcendent?

If we say that 'Mr X has skills and knowledge of a teacher manifest in him' and if we say 'Mr X is a teacher'. From a practical standpoint what would be the difference?

Similarly if we say the ''qualities' of God (Essence) are manifested in the Imam' and if we say 'Imam is God (Essence)'. Is there any difference?

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

I hope the notion of Mazhar is now clarified. [/quote]
Mazhar is used because Imam has a physical form. That is the acknowledgement of his physical aspect. We as humans are all mazhars of our souls depending upon the level of advancement. The Imam being the mazhar of the highest attainment is the Mazhar of God as per constitution.
The other reason would be that if we called Imam Allah, then we would be offending other Muslims, but if we called him the Mazhar of Allah then it would sound reasonable at least.

The Pir intercedes and prays for his murids who are alive and who are also in the spiritual domain after death.

Please elaborate. This is interesting. ?

Before elaborating on this, I would like to know whether you read my recent post about consoling the bereaved at: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 1&start=30
If yes then I will elaborate on it if needed. If not then I insist that you read it because it does explain the role of the Pir in both worlds.

Sometimes the presence of an elevated soul is enough to bring about changes in the world and the community without uttering a word.

So, in other words you are saying that status of Pir is also by nass and is heredity, same as Imam?

It does not necessarily imply that. You can have an elevated soul who is not appointed through nass. MSMS says in his Memoirs:
“Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soul.”
Of course in the case of Pirs, they are nurtured and trained for the position of Piratan being born as Ahl al-Bayt.

the story of Jesus is not relevant to Pirs. Jesus was one of the Prophets of Ulul-Azm [Natiq]. Pirs are appointed by Imam, they are not pre-distant to be Pir by birth. It's the sole prerogative of the Imam of the time who to appoint as His Hujjat and if to appoint HIS Hujjat.

The story of Jesus is relevant as an illustration of the possibility of spiritual elevation right from birth. The Pirs are required to function as intercessors and therefore they are required to be ‘qualified’ for that role, they are the Murshids of our Tariqah. Of course it is up to the Imam to determine who is the most qualified for the role. In this case the Imam determined that the infant was most qualified for the role.

I read what you said, all right. From philosophical point of view, then please explain your understanding of creation? The metaphysical hierarchy, from Supreme God/The Transcendent form the sublime realm to this dense and physical realm... I'd like to know your framework of belief system to which school of thought do you subscribe? Please...

I don’t subscribe to any philosophical/metaphysical systems. I derive my understanding from the statements of the Imams and Pirs. In my framework, there are three metaphysical concepts – the Essence, the Divine Intellect and Creation.
Allah creates and sustains his creation continuously through the application of his will and thought as reflected in the Divine Intellect.

So is Universal Soul the creation? That's it? What about the physical realm? What about cause and effect? What's the cause and what's the effect, in this context? Is The supreme God the cause of all things? These are some important questions you need to wrap your head around, if you want to contradict the doctrine of ismailies that elite theologians, Hujjats and Dais of ismialis crystallized, which are being research and studied not only within our own community but also world wide by other communities.

As I said before according to the current sciences there is no division between matter and spirit. Hence there is no distinction between the physical and spiritual aspects of creation. As I said, I pay more attention to what the current Imams says. I don’t pay much attention to the Hujjats and Dais of the past regardless of whether they are regarded or not. Generally I do not like idle speculation of philosophers. Rumi hated it!
Metaphysics is in flux. It is not static. One system may reflect a particular outlook and time and can be irrelevant for another context and time.

The Universe that the Imam mentions here is equivalent to Universal Soul that he mentions in the statement that you provided. The Universe is the form of the Universal Soul just as our bodies are the forms of our souls as per the Farman of the present Imam.

I entirely agree with your interpretation!

So, the Universal Soul creates individual soul.

Actually I would like to revise my above views. I had a re-read of the Memoirs. MSMS made two statements below.
“Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universe as much of it as we perceive with our limited visions one of the infinite manifestations.”
“Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God.”
The statements above imply that the Universal Soul is an expression of Divine Essence as the universe is one of its infinite manifestations and everything has a relationship to it.
So in this respect the Universal Soul creates the individual soul but itself it is not created, it is the Creator.

So, if we agree that in the presence of Imam Mustaqar --When Imam being the Pir, as our current MHI-- there's no need of Imam Mustawda, then tell me why do we need an entrusted Imam when the office of Pirship is delegated to a person other than the Imam of the time?? Imam of the time [Imam-e-Mustaqar] is still present and fully functioning and has the command of the office of the Imamate. That's the logical conclusion that in the presence of the Imam Mustaqar, there's no need for Imam-e-Mustawda.

The Imam Mustaqar is not fully functioning after the delegation. He does not perform the role of piratan. It is the Imam Mustawda who does it. Hence for example the Imam Mustaqar will not be responsible for making Farmans. It would be the role of the Pir (Imam Mustawda) to perform it.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/10407

The author makes a clear distinction about the role of Imam Mustawda, but yet regards it as a permanent office. I guess it can be still agreed upon, if by "Office of Imam mustawda" is referenced to office of Pirship [Hujjatship]; but, I it should be rather referenced as such, instaed of using the term "Mustawda", as you can wee from the explanation he gives about entrusting of the office of the Imamate temporarily.

Yes it becomes a permanent office once the appointment is made. The Pir remains in the office for the rest of his life. Perhaps then Mustawda may not be appropriate as per your suggestion which is reasonable.

This is a risky assumption you are making. You assume that because it's hard to find information in this forum, therefore, for a non-regular visitor it would be impossible to find anything in this forum.

If one really wants to find information, then of course he will find it. However as I said the information in the forum is difficult to find. Generally for the public at large it is hidden. It is a matter of weighing the risks against the benefit of promoting understanding. In today’s world even what is said in the private space of a JK does not remain confidential. So how are we going to articulate and understand the batini side of the faith?

[kmaherali]

So, if you look at it essentially, one can do true zikr at any time and doesn't have to be at baitulkhayal. On the contrary, if someone promises Imam that he would do baitulkhayal and then he doesn't, then instead of doing something good, he breaks the promise.

So, it doesn't mean that other communities who doesn't do baitulkhayal don't do zikr of the Imam.

I agree with you 100%. We may put it in the bucket of agreement!

[kmaherali]

Dear kmaherali,
With ref. to your baby Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda, my question is
Did Swami Yogananda saw baby Christ in real time in crib. How he knew baby's face. Are you comparing Christianity and Ismailism as same? Still I can not buy your idea that a baby in crib can pray for souls. Christ become Prophet at age of 30 years.

Mazhar,
No, he had a spiritual vision through his spiritual practices. He was an advanced yogi. In essence all faiths are equal especially regarding spirituality. Every tradition is capable of producing elevated souls. Jesus was a prophet of God as per Ismailism. Prophets can be born in an elevated state, they may be recognised by the society at a later age.

[kmaherali]

Dear Kmaherali,
In response to your post dated Feb19, 2015, you wrote," the 1964 Farman is not the latest in this topic. Remember I quoted 2 Farmans of 1966 made in Bombay in which MHI alluded to his status as the Imam in comparison to Allah." Sorry to write, according to you that every 2/4 years Imam keeps changing the Farman on a crucial topic, Is He double minded! You wrote," allude to His status as the Imam in comparison to Allah." Dear Km, comparison is always done in 2 or more than 2 things, so you are comparing Imam to ALLah. As 24/35 states, every particle in universe is mazhar of Allah. By the way 1966 Farman what you quoted was question and answer.

MHI generally speaks different things to different audiences. Yes every particle is mazhar of Allah, but it depends on the degree. Humans are not equal to plants for example. A Farman can take many forms so long as the essential message is conveyed.

[agakhani]

In my opinion those peoples does not deserve any respects from other readers who are not believing the farmans of previous imams! and rely only Paris conference and on Khushru thinking .

In end I put the comments of one IIS scholar KBHai what he wrote about him?

"On the contrary we have been very tolerant to some of your unrespectful comments inspite of you not reading the posts carefully.

[agakhani]

After deleting my post by admin which was addressed and showing the real picture of these two GADDARS in this forum.I can not stop my self to tell these two individuals let me give names of them Mazhar and Tret they both are a Munafiq of this time. One is Abu Zahal and other is Abu Sufian. Period.

[tret]

After deleting my post by admin which was addressed and showing the real picture of these two GADDARS in this forum.I can not stop my self to tell these two individuals let me give names of them Mazhar and Tret they both are a Munafiq of this time. One is Abu Zahal and other is Abu Sufian. Period.

I forgive you.

[zznoor]

"kmaherali"

MHI generally speaks different things to different audiences. Yes every particle is mazhar of Allah, but it depends on the degree. Humans are not equal to plants for example. A Farman can take many forms so long as the essential message is conveyed.

Does it mean he is practicing "Taqiya" in front of certain audience ?
What is he afraid of?

[zznoor]

"kmaherali"

MHI generally speaks different things to different audiences. Yes every particle is mazhar of Allah, but it depends on the degree. Humans are not equal to plants for example. A Farman can take many forms so long as the essential message is conveyed.

Does it mean he is practicing "Taqiya" in front of certain audience ?
What is he afraid of?

[kmaherali]

It is not about being afraid of anyone. It is about talking to people according to their capacity to understand. To talk about Calculus the teacher must make sure that his pupils know the basics of math such as addition and subtraction.
Hence, he will speak different things to different audiences.

[kmaherali]

As I cannot edit my previous post, I just wanted to elaborate..

If the Imam were in the company of Sufis, he would say things like: "I am Allah" and they would understand. On the other hand, if he were in the company of Shariatis he would say tthings like: "I am only a man like you from Allah" because that is their capacity.

I hope that clarifies things...

[nuseri]

To Kmaherali: Ya Ali madad.

You seem have gone ballistic in this topic.
It is nice to see that you made your POV strongly in few lines,that is what is to articulate rather than forty lines of foggy POV of confusion n at times manipulation.
I personally feel that word Allah is penultimate name of God.
the name/entity is ALI and the final n popular name is Allah of HIM.
If he says the word 'Allah' that means he is God of only 30% of humanity.( which acknowledges that name but do not accept it.)

It could be be like I am ALI,the GOD, kHUDA,Ishwar,Bhagwan and take all popular names called for him n final-ally also affirm my name is Allah.
He is GOD for the whole humanity and not only the name referred for him in Quran.

[zznoor]

It is not about being afraid of anyone. It is about talking to people according to their capacity to understand. To talk about Calculus the teacher must make sure that his pupils know the basics of math such as addition and subtraction.
Hence, he will speak different things to different audiences.

Do you think when a religious leader speaks in Islamic venue listeners are dumb.

What you have to pass exam to be in audience to listen to MHI tell truth about his beliefs?

"Capacity to understand" is buzzword used too many times.

[zznoor]

As I cannot edit my previous post, I just wanted to elaborate..

If the Imam were in the company of Sufis, he would say things like: "I am Allah" and they would understand. On the other hand, if he were in the company of Shariatis he would say tthings like: "I am only a man like you from Allah" because that is their capacity.

I hope that clarifies things...

Even in front of Sufi he would not dare to say "I am Allah".
Do you know any Leader of Sufi Tariqa clams that "He is Allah".

If he says "I am Allah" to Shariati either shariati would deem him crazy or he would put himself in danger.

Are all so called Shariti dumb?
Was Prophet a Sharati or Marfati? Any proof that he observed Batini Islam?
If he did please post Quranic Ayas and Ahadith on how to be Batini Muslim.

[agakhani]

Do you think when a religious leader speaks in Islamic venue listeners are dumb.

Yes there were many Sufis who claimed themselves as equal to Allah, history revels that they didn't saw any different between Allah and from them! Mansoor Al- Halaj is one of them.[/b] unfortunately peoples has always treated them as a crazy persons and punished them.

[fayaz006]

zznoor wrote

If he says "I am Allah" to Shariati either shariati would deem him crazy or he would put himself in danger.

Are all so called Shariti dumb?

You know this may be the first but I agree with you. Some qualities you do find in the shariati is the need to persecute. The need to separate, close mindedness, a rather annoying attribute to confine knowledge and not increase it.

To your second question, the words I would choose would be misguided, unguided, and close minded. Judging by current affairs what would be your answer?

[mazhar]

With ref. to a post,"the word MHI used by him as MAZAR E DITH ILAHI."
I wander a 50 years old person who claim to be an Ismaili does not know the meaning of Mazhar and asked some scholar for meaning, where as in Karachi a 14 yrs old RC student knows the meaning of Mazhar. That person keep discussing and showing attitude on this site as he has ilm e gaib. Still he spells wrong ' mazar e dith ilahi.' what is this DITH? Atleast now he accepts Mazhar e dhat (zaat) e ILLAHI, which he calls brand name!

[mazhar]

Aghakhani,
I am answering your 2 posts together. In one of your post you mentioned, "SHIAS WERE PRESENT AT TIME OF MOSES." You meant shian e Ali were present at time of Moses. What a research! You have tendency of jumping on every post, selecting a line out of context and give your opinion as you are a great scholar. If you do not know Quran or Arabic ask some one or read translation of Quran in Gujrati. I know there are many translations in Gujrati language. Do some research work and then post. If you have any confusion ask me through this site, I am here to serve you as before. The word Shia you have quoted from Quran in relation to Moses is from Surah Al Qasas # 15. In the same Ayat the word Shia is used twice. That word Shia is not related to Shian e Ali. That event related to Moses and the Qubti
whom Moses killed during a brawl to save his fellow Israili. Please read Surah Al Qasas. By the way for general information the word SHIA is used in Quran 9 times with its derivatives. Shia means group, it is used as sect and as in Urdu we say brothery.
Reply to your 2nd post, you keep calling absurd words like gaddar, kafir, munafiq, doesn't matter to me. I am like a mirror you are seeing your images there, that is your inner face. I am a follower of H I. Obey Farman of the Imam of the time. You wrote, why I do not follow Farmans of previous Imams. I am asking you the same quetion, Why don't you follow what Mowla Ali said about Allah read Nahjul Ballaghah. Read sermons of Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far, Imam Muiz. Were those not your Imams?
AAINA JO TUM KO DIKHAYA TOU BURRA MAAN GAEY

[agakhani]

"SHIAS WERE PRESENT AT TIME OF MOSES." You meant shian e Ali were present at time of Moses. What a research!

Yes, If you have read my post carefully then you would not have asked me that above question! by the way this is not my own research , this research has been made by many other scholars including Sunnis scholars too !. Didn't I mentioned that it has been complied from Sunni sources!!?? yest, I did in my above post read carefully before accusing me!.

If you do not know Quran or Arabic ask some one or read translation of Quran in Gujrati. I know there are many translations in Gujrati language. Do some research work and then post. If you have any confusion ask me through this site,

Who the heck are you? and why should I have to ask you? for me Quran is incomplete, altered and changed!! it has been proven many times not only this websites but many other websites too!!
so, I do not trust Quran but I only rely on ginans, farmans ( which you do not have faith on them) in which I can find all the answers from them!! thanks to my Ismaili Sattadhari pirs ( not the central Asian Dais ) who provides Tafsir of quran and they went even beyond the quran to provide all the answers which even quran doesn't have!!!

Don't you believe this? then go ahead and find out from Quran; when this universe will be get end? this open challenge question was asked more then six months ago but so far nobody has come forward to prove me wrong? because there is no answer in quran at all!!!!!
for your kind information yes, ( let me repeat it yes, you can find this answers in ginans )where your so called Quran remains quiets.,not only this but even quran does not have answers of many modern time question which we never heard before!!
So why should ask you " A DO PAISE KE AADMI KO"

[tret]

Rumi hated it!

You don't seem to know much about Mauwlana, do you!



Rumi sums up his entire life in one verse:

Aasel-i omram seh sukhan baish nayst
khaam boodam, pukhta shudam, sookhtam.

Translation:
My entire life is not more than 3 words
I was raw[khaam], then ripen/cooked[pukhta], and finally burnt[sookhtan].

Mauwlana's life is in 3 stages.

- raw [kham] - it was mostly his upbringing and youth.
- ripe[cooked] - from youth, before meeting Shams [that was the time when he mastered the knowledge of exoteric, the Qur'an and other philosophies]
- burnt[sookhtan] - after encountering and falling in love with Shams and apprehending the truth and secrete treasures of the God.


When you say Rumi hated it, he was in his last stage of his life!
So, now are you trying to imitate Rumi, because he said hated it and now you are also hating it?
if you are an imitator without understanding, then are you any better than those whom you label as shariati?

[mazhar]

Aghakhani wrote," for me Quran is incomplete "
Kia baat haey! but still you give references from Quran. Regarding Quran I have quoted Farmans of MSMS and Shah Karim under this subect read those and then dance. What a heck person who do not believe in Farmans.

[zznoor]

Aghakhani wrote," for me Quran is incomplete "

Hz Ali recited Uthmani Quran when he was Khalif of Umma. During his khilafat he never said Quran was altered.

Those who claim Quran is incomplete or has 10 more chapters have passed away without putting a single word on paper.
Unfortunately some people still believe in such claims

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I just read about Rumi.It add zero value to Ismailism,he wasa great sufi, he is gone n done with.
He himself neither became Ismaili nor got any under it's fold.If Shams tabriz just would have made 200 ismailis instead of wasting time on rumi.the natural growth would have been 100000 haqiqati Ismailis of today just out inspiration n essence
of 'Dume Hume Dum ALI ALI' n his divan.

I assume the compulsive bloggers with start offloading their xxxx/articulations by replying to petty points of each other for next 10 pages.God bless you'll.


The so called Holy book is distorted as said by few Imams.
Even Hazrat Ali ACKNOWLEDGE it under protest.
It wording n meaning are not easy for layman,we do have excellent farman
,ginans n qasida in current times.

what was needed from 'the book' is already incorporated in our Dua.
Ismaili would be better off with it.