Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?

[tret]

The Adam of the Bible and the Qur'an who is the first Prophet or Natiq of our 7,000 year cycle was NOT the first human being.

Indeed, the 7 Days of Creation mentioned in the Bible and Qur'an refer to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and the Qa'im al-Qiyamah.

But there were Cycles before these prophets and there was a lineage of Imams existing in the Pre-Adamic cycles.

More information on the Cycles, pre Adam and post Adam, are available in this article along with a Table.

http://ismailignosis.com/2012/07/09/fro ... -imamat-2/

So, can you please find any reference of pre-Adam prophecies or Imamate in the Qur'an? As muslims [first, the Ismailis], we believe Qur'an being the final message of God. So, can we find any reference of Pre-Adam in the Qur'an?

If yes, please, I'd be very interested to see.

If no, then does that mean that somehow this whole notion of Pre-Adam was missed out by God?

This is what I have hard time understanding it. Please I'd love to hear your side.

[tret]

I made a statement regarding a ta'wil involving 'earth and heavens' based on the statement of the Imam on the same issue. In my view it is perfectly within context. You can disagree with it that is fine and I will not argue with you on that. However i would like to read the complete section of the Imam's statement from the book. I don't have it with me. Do you mind posting it if it is not too long? I am only implying that the Hujjat has not taken consideration of the physical to which the Imam alluded. I am not making any judgement whether he was right or wrong but the ta'wil seems incomplete without any reference to the physical.

I think I understand why are you under scoring the creation of physical world and why it is not stated in the tah'wil. well, this particular verse of the Qur'an doesn't talk about creation of physical realm, but rather world of faith. Then how can the tah'wil mention the physical creation? As if I say, surah ikhlas doesn't say anything about Imamate; therefore, I don't accept it. It wouldn't sound logical, would it? As I indicated the verse of Qur'an is pertinent to world of faith and not physical world, hence you don't see the mention of creation of physical world in the tah'wil. For complete explanation of this, I would suggest you refer to "Knowledge and Liberation" of Nasir Khusraw" on creation.

The Imam's statement is the basis of any judgement. If statements from the past Hujjats and Pirs contradict the current statement of the Imam then I would reject them. In this case I have shown that the ta'will contradicts the statements made by MSMS viz constant and perpetual creation and the number of prophets.

again dear kmaherali - you are mixing physical world with the world of faith. If you apply logic and god given intellect, you would realize that the verse of the Qur'an doesn't talk about physical world, but rather world of faith. I'd like you to mark this in your mind. Even the Farmaan of the Imam I provided to show you that the verse is talking about world of faith and not physical world. so there's no contradiction of the Imam and His Hujjat.

Sorry, I don't have the entire Farmaan, as this was quoted elsewhere.

I have said that the ta'wil can change and it is not static. The ta'wil made 1000 years ago although very appropriate for its context, may not be relevant today. I have demonstrated based of MSMS's statements why this ta'wil is not approriate today.

I disagree with you. Tah'wil is interpretation of essence of faith. and essence of our faith doesn't change. We may practice it differently according to time and space, exoterically; however, the essence always remains the same. That's what MHI has mentioned more than once that essence of faith doesn't change. Again the reference of MSMS in this context is irrelevant - but it is 100% correct.

it is my opinion and it satisfies my needs so I am happy with it. I am not asking you to accept it.

and I am perfectly okay with that. Because in faith there's no compulsion but conviction. similarly you can't have a jew or a Hindu to accept the concept of Imamate, for example. but as long as personal opinions remain personal to individual and doesn't imply that it should be the ismaili belief in general, I think it is perfectly okay. I mean, if one considers cow to have the divine power and knowledge; then I have no right to force him otherwise. I can try to give him logical reasoning; however, I can't force him to change his belief. His belief is his alone.

OK another possible tafsir can be the 6 phases of evolution of life.
1- Water and air
2- Minerals
3- Plants
4 - Life originating from eggs (fishes, insects and birds)
5- Life originating from womb (mammals)
6 - Man (Crown of creation)

The heavens would be the spiritual counterparts - astral water, astral plants etc.

The point I am making is that if you open up yourself to the fact that the ta'wil can change, than you can be inspired to find a suitable one for yourself. You are very intelligent and I am sure you can come up with something better then the above two that I have provided.In fact we should draw inspiration from the past Hujjat for his ability to allegorize days into prophetic cycles, but not necessarily agree to his ta'wil for the present time.

It is like the Sharia. If you don't accept that the Sharia evolves, then you are stuck with the past.

there was a reason why I brought up the doctrine of tah'lim; and I am glad you agree with it. While there are people with divine knowledge who can correctly decode the hidden secrets in the Qur'an, but there are most ummah who may very well come up with the opposite or wrong interpretation. it is not something that everyone can correctly interpret whatever they wish to [ahl-e-sunnah is a clear example, where each mawlawi comes up with their own version of their interpretation]. that is the concept of tah'lim so that everyone recognizes his authoritative teacher [beneficent and beneficiary].

I quoted this to back up my statement before about the advances of science and the concept of time.

I think I already clarify this.

The verse of the Ginan says exacltly what the verse in the Qur'an says i.e, that the world was created in 6 days. Hence there is no difference between the Qur'an and the Ginans both of which are allegorical and subject to personal interpretation. However the tawil differs.

in its literal form maybe. but I think we are past the literal (zahir) at this stage, aren't we? "days" or "6 days" doesn't mean literally 6 calendar day. Again, not a good logic or reasoning.

The principle of ta'lim that is the authoritative religious guidance of a legitimate Imam, is fundamental to Shia Islam. (Contemplation and Action) I agree with it. So how does this fit into our discussion?

I think I gave your answer already as why the recognition of your authoritative teacher is important.

In summary, I do not accept the ta'wil provided by the Hujjat because:
1. It does not consider the creation of the physical domain.
2. It does not consider the Prophets and Imams prior to Hazarat Adam and indeed does not consider the rest of 124,000 prophets.
3. It restricts creation to a given time frame (time frame of the 6 Prophets) as opposed to being constant and perpetual.

in summary, you can accept or reject anything you'd like. After all there's no compulsion in faith. As long as personal opinion remains personal. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever.

1. because the verse of Qur'an is not talking about physical world.
2. because there's no mention of pre-Adam prophets in this verse of Qur'an [or any where in the Qur'an]. 124000 are the messengers and not prophets. Some search needed to find the difference.
3. redundant as you ask this twice. see your question#1.

[ismailignosis]

"So, can you please find any reference of pre-Adam prophecies or Imamate in the Qur'an? As muslims [first, the Ismailis], we believe Qur'an being the final message of God. So, can we find any reference of Pre-Adam in the Qur'an? "

- Well, it is given in the ta'wil of the Qur'an. The creation of Adam from earth and clay and the prostration of the Angels - all of this must be interpreted in ta'wil and they refer to the hudud (dignitaries) of the World of Religion. The most clear statement about this ta'wil is given by Jafar ibn Mansur al-Yaman, who was the Bab of the Imam, and later by Nasiruddin al-Tusi and his work was approved by the Alamut Imams. Thus the authorized Ismaili da'wa works clearly affirm Imamat and humans BEFORE the Qur'anic Adam.

- The qur'an also says that mankind was "one ummah" before God sent Prophets and Messengers to them. Adam was also the first prophet so there was One Ummah before he was sent. We also have hadiths from Shia Imams saying that God has made thousands upon thousands of Adams.

[tret]

The most clear statement about this ta'wil is given by Jafar ibn Mansur al-Yaman, who was the Bab of the Imam, and later by Nasiruddin al-Tusi and his work was approved by the Alamut Imams

Okay, so can you please provide a reference to the work of Jafar or Tusi?

- The qur'an also says that mankind was "one ummah" before God sent Prophets and Messengers to them. Adam was also the first prophet so there was One Ummah before he was sent

I don't see any reference of Prophecies [or Imamatate] in here. Instead, it's stated that Adam was the first Prophet.


According to my understanding, I believe life existed before Adam, but it was not in the form of Human as we know it. It may have been in other forms of lower ranks of vegetation, animals, etc.... with no intellect.
Now, some may argue that even then, the existence of the Imam [or guide] would have been necessary, which I have hard time to understand as why? what would have been the difference between animal forms then, and now? Animal world is the lower rank which is the effect[or beneficiary] of the world of vegetation. It's not the end, but its means.

[ismailignosis]

Ja'far ibn Mansur al-Yaman, Sara'ir wa Asrar al-Nutuqa. Two chapters in this work give the ta'wil of the story of Adam. In summary, it explains that Hazrat Adam was born on the Island of Ceylon and his people were well versed in astrology. His father was the Imam of the Time and the Imam appointed Adam as his Khalifa and the first Prophet of the new cycle. Adam was trained and initiated in the da'wa of the Imam, i.e. the meaning of soil and clay is the rank of mustajib in the da'wa. The Imam ordered his Hudud (the angels) to bow down to Adam, i.e. to give their bay'a to Adam.

Nasiruddin Tusi in The Paradise of Submission gives us a very similar ta'wil and states without ambiguity that Adam and Eve were NOT the first two humans and that the Imam preceding Adam was the Qa'im (Resurrector) of the cycle before.

The Imamat has always existed. Imam SMS has said that Mawlana Ali was hidden with the Prophets before Muhammad and was revealed with Muhammad. Similarly, there is a hadith attributed to the Prophet that says 'Ali was sent secretly with the Prophet and openly with him. Hadiths of Imam Baqir and Imam Jafar state more clearly how the Nur of Imamat dwelled in the lineage from Adam down to Abu Talib, and Ali inherits the Nur from Abu Talib. Tusi in Paradise, quoting Imam Hasan ADS, says the Imams have always existed and their lineage is higher than the Prophets and independent of them (although it intersects several prophets).

[tret]

Ja'far ibn Mansur al-Yaman, Sara'ir wa Asrar al-Nutuqa. Two chapters in this work give the ta'wil of the story of Adam. In summary, it explains that Hazrat Adam was born on the Island of Ceylon and his people were well versed in astrology. His father was the Imam of the Time and the Imam appointed Adam as his Khalifa and the first Prophet of the new cycle. Adam was trained and initiated in the da'wa of the Imam, i.e. the meaning of soil and clay is the rank of mustajib in the da'wa. The Imam ordered his Hudud (the angels) to bow down to Adam, i.e. to give their bay'a to Adam.

So, what would be the philosophy of Adam and Eve, and their falling from heaven. Creating Eve from Adam. I know they have esoteric meaning. I think it would be appropriate to discuss them here. I'd love you hear form you on this, please.

Nasiruddin Tusi in The Paradise of Submission gives us a very similar ta'wil and states without ambiguity that Adam and Eve were NOT the first two humans and that the Imam preceding Adam was the Qa'im (Resurrector) of the cycle before.

Would you happen to know which tasawur is it referencing?

The Imamat has always existed. Imam SMS has said that Mawlana Ali was hidden with the Prophets before Muhammad and was revealed with Muhammad. Similarly, there is a hadith attributed to the Prophet that says 'Ali was sent secretly with the Prophet and openly with him. Hadiths of Imam Baqir and Imam Jafar state more clearly how the Nur of Imamat dwelled in the lineage from Adam down to Abu Talib, and Ali inherits the Nur from Abu Talib. Tusi in Paradise, quoting Imam Hasan ADS, says the Imams have always existed and their lineage is higher than the Prophets and independent of them (although it intersects several prophets).

True; there's no disagreement on this part. However, it still doesn't imply pre-Adam.

Once I was asked, if there is any historical evidence or record of lineage of Imamat from any other previous major prophets. I personally don't know. But, is there? To prove the lineage of Imamate prior to our first Manifest Imam Ali.

[ismailignosis]

Adam was the first Natiq of the current 7,000 year cycle. He was the son of Mawlana Hunayd - the last Imam of the preceding Cycle. Corbin's Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis explains all of this in detail.

The primary sources are Jafar ibn Mansur, Tusi, and Idris Imad al-Din [the Tayyibi Dai Mutlaq]. Thus both the Nizari and Tayyibi Ismaili traditions agree that Hazrat Adam mentioned in the Bible and Qur'an is NOT the first human being. Before that, Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani in his Kitab al-Yanabi rejected that very notion that God created Adam, and then his wife and then created mankind via their procreation. Instead, Sijistani says that the multitude of humans appeared in the world all once.

Eve is the name of Adam's Bab [Hujjat] and the creation of Even from Adam's rib refers to the spiritual creation and training of Eve by Adam's ta'yid. The ribs of Adam refer to the 12 hujjats of the day and 12 hujjats of the night and Eve was appointed from among these "ribs" and elevated to the rank of Bab [great Hujjat] of Adam. That is the meaning of Adam and Eve being married. The primary sources of this ta'wil is Qadi al-Nu'man's Asas al-Ta'wil and later the Majalis of al-Mu'ayyad Shirazi. I have read the passages in Arabic too.

So Adam is not the first man and Eve is not the first woman by any means. Adam had physical parents as did everyone else. So logically, just as there is Imamat from the period of Adam via Seth to Ali in one lineage, that same lineage extends back beyond Adam. Some of the names of the pre-Adamic Imams are given in the Ghat Pat Du'a of Pir Sadr al-Din and more names are given in the books of the Persian Nizari Mu'allim Fidai Khurasani who was appointed as mu'allim by MSMS.

Also, as per your previous posts, you have correctly stated that Imamat and Hujjatship are the two main offices. In the period of Prophethood from Adam to Muhammad, the Natiq was both Entrusted Imam and a Hujjat. The Asas became Imam after the Natiq and functioned as Hujjat during his lifetime. In the case of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, and Muhammad, the Asas was ALSO the Permanent Imam (mustaqarr Imam) but did not function outwardly as Imam until the Natiq leaves the world. Also in the case of Ibrahim, mawlana Ismail and his descendants up to Mawlana Abu Talib were the Permanent Imams while the descendants of Ishaq and Yaqub including major Israelite Prophets and Kings up to Jesus were Entrusted Imams. Then the Entrusted Imamat continued through Jesus successors up to the Monk Bahira who surrended the outward authority back to Imam Abu Talib. Then Abu Talib appointed Muhammad as the Entrusted Imam and Ali is the Asas, functioning as the Hujjat of Muhammad. Then at Ghadeer Khum, Muhammad surrenders the outward authority of Imamat to Mawlana Ali.

[agakhani]

So Adam is not the first man and Eve is not the first woman by any means. Adam had physical parents as did everyone else.

Off course not! that Adam also called Hazarat Honyard( Shri Budha 9th incarnation) was not the first man on earth there were many Adams born and died before him.
There is a list in "Vishnapuri" of names of 77 Patras which are as follows:
Genealogy of the Imams
(Presented as EVIDENCE in the HAJI BIBI CASE before Mr. Justice Russell)

Period of the Three Karans

1. shri ahunah, 2. shri alakh, 3. shri naamnil,
4. shri anil, 5. shri soon, 6. shri saan,
7. shri naan, 8. shri ginan, 9. shri noor,
10. shri tej, 11. shri jal, 12. shri kamal,
13. shri adbudh, 14. shri jaag, 15. shri tantaw,
16. shri premtantaw, 17. shri aad furush,

Period of the Four Kalaps:

1. shri haw, 2. shri kaw, 3. shri dharam
4. shri keshaw, 5. shri tawnaad, 6. shri utra,
7. shri haritak, 8. shri pururwa, 9. shri anta atita,
10. shri premrukh,

Period of the Four Yugas (Das Avatars)

Shri Maccha (1st Avatar)
1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

Shri Korabh (2nd Avatar)
9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

Shri Varah (3rd Avatar)
15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,

Shri Narshinha, (4th Avatar)
23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

Shri Vaeman (5th Avatar)
2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

Shri Farsiram (6th Avatar)
32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,

Shri Ram (7th Avatar)
39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,

Shri Krishna (8th Avatar)
43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,

Shri Budha (Imam Honayd) (9th Avatar) – Marks the commencement of Kalyjug
50. shish (probably the biblical Seth),
51. sham (probably the biblical Shem)
52. malikulsalaam (probably the biblical Melchizedek)
53. malkaan,
54. eslaam (probably the biblical Ishmael),
55. haroon (probably the biblical Aaron),
56. shamunnsaffa (probably the biblical Simon Peter),
57. adnaan,
58. maa' d,
59. nizar,
60. mudar,
61. eliaas,
62. mudrak,
63. khuzema,
64. kinana,
65. nazar,
66. maalek,
67. gaaleb,
68. luve,
69. ka'ab,
70. mure,
71. kilaab,
72. kuse,
73. abdul munaaf,
74. abu hashim,
75. abdul mutalib,
76. abu talib,
Shri Naklanki – Ali ibn Abu Talib (10th Avatar)

As you can see, according to our old dua, Shri Ram, Shri Krishna, and Shri Boudh (not Siddharta Buddah), were Imams, not prophets. They are in fact ancestors of the Imams today. but one thing is true that "Hazrat Ali was with every prophet in batin and was Zahir at the time of Nabi Mohammad"

[tret]

Does Corbin give any reference [or evidence] about Adam being the son of Hunayd? I am only asking, because there's no reference of it in the Qur'an [or at least I am not aware of it], and I don't know if it is in the bible either?

Can you please refer the "Tasawur" or section in Paradise of Submission, where Tusi alludes to this?

Can you elaborate more on what Sajistani believes, on "multitude of humans appeared at once"?

Thank you for this information. Truly interesting and informative. I had similar understanding of Adam and Eve, not sure if it holds valid? Adam could be understood as Universal Intellect and Eve 'created' from Adam, can be understood, Universal Soul emanating from Divine Intellect, through mediation. But, according to your analogy, if Adam is the Natiq, and Eve is Bab [Asas]; now if we were to correlate with Imam and Hujjat, after the major cycles; can we say 6 major prophets were Natiq at their dawr[cycle], and Imam is Natiq at his epoch[roozgar], and Wasi of Natiq during major cycles, is the Asas, and Hujjat of the Imam is the Asas? [No pun intended!]. I want to clarify, whether Imam can be understood as Natiq or Asas, after Prophet Mohammad?

Also, as per your previous posts, you have correctly stated that Imamat and Hujjatship are the two main offices. In the period of Prophethood from Adam to Muhammad, the Natiq was both Entrusted Imam and a Hujjat. The Asas became Imam after the Natiq and functioned as Hujjat during his lifetime. In the case of Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, and Muhammad, the Asas was ALSO the Permanent Imam (mustaqarr Imam) but did not function outwardly as Imam until the Natiq leaves the world. Also in the case of Ibrahim, mawlana Ismail and his descendants up to Mawlana Abu Talib were the Permanent Imams while the descendants of Ishaq and Yaqub including major Israelite Prophets and Kings up to Jesus were Entrusted Imams. Then the Entrusted Imamat continued through Jesus successors up to the Monk Bahira who surrended the outward authority back to Imam Abu Talib. Then Abu Talib appointed Muhammad as the Entrusted Imam and Ali is the Asas, functioning as the Hujjat of Muhammad. Then at Ghadeer Khum, Muhammad surrenders the outward authority of Imamat to Mawlana Ali.

Beautiful, thanks!

Do you mean by "Entrusted Imam", as Imam Mustawda [or Trustee Imam]?

[ismailignosis]

"Does Corbin give any reference [or evidence] about Adam being the son of Hunayd? I am only asking, because there's no reference of it in the Qur'an [or at least I am not aware of it], and I don't know if it is in the bible either? "

- Yes Corbin gives references. Let me explain. Whenever you say, "not found in the Quran" you are only speaking of the tanzil and zahir of the Qur'an. Of course Imam Hunayd is mentioned, but in the Quranic story of Adam, Imam Hunayd is called the Lord (rabb) of Adam. Remember the verse that says "Your Lord said to the angels, I am appointing a khalifa on earth." Now, the ta'wil of that means the Imam of the Time said to his Hudud, I am appointing a khalifa in the earth of the da'wa.

"I had similar understanding of Adam and Eve, not sure if it holds valid? Adam could be understood as Universal Intellect and Eve 'created' from Adam, can be understood, Universal Soul emanating from Divine Intellect, through mediation. "

- Your reading is correct too, but remember ta'wil operates at different levels with respect to each "world". In the world of tanzil of the Qur;an, you have the Adam and Eve created from his rib. In the World of Din, Adam is the Natiq and Eve is his Hujjat/Bab. In the World of Spirit, Adam stands for Intellect and Eve for the Soul - since Natiq and Hujjat on earth are the manifestations of Intellect and Soul.

In terms of history, it is better to take Imam and Bab as the two main ranks. And then what happens is that a Natiq serves as Entrusted Imam while he is alive, and sometimes the Mustaqarr Imam assumes the lower role of Bab - remember there are 4 kinds of Bab. So the succeeding Imam is always the Bab of the ruling Imam; even when the ruling Imam is the Natiq, the Permanent Imam who is Asas will play the role of Bab.

[tret]

Of course Imam Hunayd is mentioned, but in the Quranic story of Adam, Imam Hunayd is called the Lord (rabb) of Adam. Remember the verse that says "Your Lord said to the angels, I am appointing a khalifa on earth." Now, the ta'wil of that means the Imam of the Time said to his Hudud, I am appointing a khalifa in the earth of the da'wa.

Thanks. So, can you please let us know, this tah'wil is according to who? According to my understanding, anyone can do tah'wil according to his/her level of knowledge. The ultimate tah'wil is off course is from the Imam, and then the Hujjats, Da'i and Mualeem. So, I'd like to know, from you, this tah'wil [Rabb, being Hunnayd], is according to whom?

Another point, which I'd like to ask. I have heard [from others], that Imam is the Mazhar [locus of Manifestation] of the Divine Intellect; where as Tusi [in his Paradise of Submission], states that the Imam is the epiphany of the Divine Command. And he beautifully explains why. So, according to your understanding is Imam Mazhar of the Divine Intellect? Or the Divine Command?

[agakhani]

Intereting folks,
Gnosis and tret,
As a learning student for all the time and as tret you know mu quran reading is very limited so will you please give me detail on following words?
Natiq
Hudud
Bab
Mustkar
mustwada
Raab, must be Rab

BTW:
When Allahtala said I am going to appoint one Khalip for you at that time no human being were created means at that time when Allah said above sentence which was directlly mentioned to the angels! Now when there was no human beings were there
and H.Adam still has to born then where in the world Imam came over there!?
This question is for Ismailignosis.

[tret]

Natiq
Hudud
Bab
Mustkar
mustwada
Raab, must be Rab

These are very good questions. I'll try to explain to the best of my knowledge. and of course, I'd be glad if I am corrected.

Natiq = Prophets during major cycles. There are 6 Natiqeen, Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad. [The 7th shall be Qaim-ul-Qiyamah aka subbat, who will be the Lord of Resurrection].

Hudud [Hadd singular] = Are the ranks in the world of faith as well as spiritual realm. the realm of spiritual mirrors the world of faith. Hududs of Spiritual realms are Universal Intellect, Universal Soul, Jadd, Fath, Khayal; whereas the world of faith are Imam, Bab, Hujjat, Dai, Mualeem. Imam receives ta'yid perpetually from the spiritual realm and is in constant recognition of his status, and as such Mah'soon and infallible. Knowledge of the Imam is then transmitted to Hujjat through ta'yid [divine assistance], which in turn is passed to lower ranks through ta'hlim [Instructions]. This is a concept that revitalized by Sayydna Hassan Sabah at the fortress of Alamut.

Bab = as ismailignosis beautifully explained, Bab is one of the 12 Hujjat's of 'Day', which is elected by sole discretion of the Imam. Out of these 12 Hujjats, 4 Hujjats are considered the Hujjats of proximity [allegorized as 4 gates of kahba] and supposedly never leave site of the Imam. Whoever wants to reach to Imam, has to pass through these 4 Hujjats. Similarly, if one wants to get to Kahba, has to pass through one of these gates. 12 Hujjats of night may not be formally in Ismaili tariqa; however, they still invite humankind toward the haqq. .

Mustaqar [Permanent] = Imama-e-Mustaqar is the Permanent Imam, where as Imam-e-Mustawda [Trustee Imam] is the Imam appointed in special circumstances where the office of Imamat is entrusted with, temporarily. [In case of Imam Hassan].

Rabb = I believe it is the Lord?

[agakhani]

Tret,
Thanks for the meaning of above words, it will sure help me to better understand Quran next time.

[ismailignosis]

Tret,

Some correction in your spelling: ta'wil; ta'lim; ma'sum; there is no "h" in these words.

"When Allahtala said I am going to appoint one Khalip for you at that time no human being were created means at that time when Allah said above sentence which was directlly mentioned to the angels! Now when there was no human beings were there
and H.Adam still has to born then where in the world Imam came over there!? "

- Agakhani, the Quran literally says the Lord (rabb) announced to the angels (mala'ik). But the ta'wil or esoteric meaning of this is that the Imam of the Age announced to his Hujjats. Qur'an says Adam is created from water and dust, i.e. clay and then his Lord breathed Spirit into him. In esoteric meaning, this means that Adam was among the mu'mins (dust) and then given ta'lim (water) and finally, received the Nur (Holy Spirit) from the Imam. Physically, Adam was not the first man and he was born to his parents.

[ismailignosis]

"Thanks. So, can you please let us know, this tah'wil is according to who? According to my understanding, anyone can do tah'wil according to his/her level of knowledge. The ultimate tah'wil is off course is from the Imam, and then the Hujjats, Da'i and Mualeem. So, I'd like to know, from you, this tah'wil [Rabb, being Hunnayd], is according to whom? "

- The ta'wil of the Adam story I gave you is per Jafar ibn Mansur al-Yaman. He was the Bab of Imam Muizz. Also the same ta'wil is given by Qadi al-Numan and Nasir al-Din Tusi.

"I have heard [from others], that Imam is the Mazhar [locus of Manifestation] of the Divine Intellect; where as Tusi [in his Paradise of Submission], states that the Imam is the epiphany of the Divine Command."

- the answer is both. Here is my explanation only - and it is formulated to reconcile this key difference. The rank of Imam is the mazhar of the Intellect; the rank of Qa'im is the mazhar of the Command. Some Imams in the line of Imamat also held the rank of Qa'im - they were mini-Qa'ims and played special roles in history. So these Imam-Qa'im's are the mazhar of both Intellect and Command. Tusi was writing at a time following the declaration of qiyamat at Alamut and the Imams of his time were performing the role of Qa'im in his time. So it is expected that he views the Imams of his time as mazahir of Command.

The Qa'im al-Qiyamah - who is distinct from the Imam and does not hold the rank of Imamat - is the mazhar of the Command alone.

[tret]

dear ismailignosis -

Some correction in your spelling: ta'wil; ta'lim; ma'sum; there is no "h" in these words.

Well, thank you for pointing out my spelling mistakes. I will certainly note that, going forward. I used to be an excellent speller, but then I became an English teacher.

In English I wasn't sure how to denote 'ع' [for معصوم or تعلیم] or 'آ' [for تآویل]. I know some folks denotes 'ع' as [3]. Such as Ma3sum or Ma3soom.

Anyways, are you suggesting that Imams can have different status and hadd [حد]? Because to be Mazhar of the Divine Command or the Divine Intellect are certainly different ranks of spiritual realm, is it not?

I have always understood, that Imams are always the Mazhar of the same Nur-e-Imamat. I have already given an example of 49 mirrors reflecting the light of the sun, but in their own individual particularities. Now, according to your assertion, that's no longer true. Can you then elaborate the distinction between the Divine Command and the Divine Intellect?

Thanks.

[kmaherali]

According to the ginans the Imam is the Mazhar of the Niranjan (Divine Essence):

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide (Divine Intellect) is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable (Niranjan) from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly (Imam).

The Divine Essence is the origin of all metaphysical structures.
Hence the Mazhar of the Divine Essence can assume the function/roles of the Divine Intellect or Divine Command or even the role of an ordinary person depending upon the metaphysical/philosophical outlook of the time. But it is not true vice versa.

Just like an owner of a company may function as a clerk if there is a requirement to do that, but a clerk cannot function as the owner.

Hence at present the Imam functions as the Master/Ishvar/Ocean and the Pir (Divine Intellect) at the same time. Our past Imams delegated the role of the Divine Intellect to the Pirs (members of Ahl al-Bayt), hence the roles were split.

[tret]

Know with conviction that the True Guide (Divine Intellect) is in the form of Prophet Muhammed.
The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable (Niranjan) from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly (Imam).

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing this.
However, one remark, and guess it could be the translation and not the origin of the ginan. I think when we say "Form", it is actually the soul that assumes the form, not the spirit! The [Divine] Spirit is not in the realm of physical; however the individual soul [that has already occupied a body "Form"], receives ta'yid perpetually from the Divine Spirit. In case of the Imams and Prophets, their individual souls is constantly aware of their status, and conscious.

The Divine Essence is the origin of all metaphysical structures.
Hence the Mazhar of the Divine Essence can assume the function/roles of the Divine Intellect or Divine Command or even the role of an ordinary person depending upon the metaphysical/philosophical outlook of the time. But it is not true vice versa.

Just like an owner of a company may function as a clerk if there is a requirement to do that, but a clerk cannot function as the owner.

Hence at present the Imam functions as the Master/Ishvar/Ocean and the Pir (Divine Intellect) at the same time. Our past Imams delegated the role of the Divine Intellect to the Pirs (members of Ahl al-Bayt), hence the roles were split.

Right, and I couldn't agree more [except for the part where I underlined]. The reason why I say it -- again this is my understanding -- is because like I mentioned earlier, it is the Divine Spirit that the individual soul receives perpetual tay'id [divine assistance], where as the individual soul occupies physical body. So, our current MHI receives tay'id from all huddod of spiritual realm, the Divine Command, as well as the Divine Intellect and as such Mazhar of both. I agree with you on that part.

Whereas, ismailignosis's assertion suggests that each Imam can be Mazhar of the Divine Command [in case of minor-Qai'm, or Qai'm-ul-Qayamah or Subbat], or Mazhar of the Divine Intellect, in case of other Imams. So, you can think of it as mutually exclusive. Where as your suggestion is more accurate that Imam can be Mazhar of both, such as our current MHI that occupies both stations of the Imamate and Hujjatship [Pirship].

Another question to ismailignosis: So, do you believe -- provided that my understanding about your suggestion is correct -- that when Imam is the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect, the the presence of the Mazhar of the Divine Command isn't there in the realm of physical?

[ismailignosis]

" that when Imam is the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect, the the presence of the Mazhar of the Divine Command isn't there in the realm of physical?"

The Imams - their souls to be specific - are the mazhar of the Universal Intellect. Now, the Universal Intellect is joined to the Command, so the mazhar of the Intellect is also a mazhar of the Command as well.

But the Qa'im as such is the mazhar of the Command only and not the Intellect.

The Hujjat is the mazhar of the Soul.

You have to realize that Karim Maherali is of a different school of thought. In their view, the Imam is the mazhar of the Godhead, the Transcendant One, and the Hujjat is the mazhar of the Intellect. That is a totally different paradigm which I do not agree with as it is inconsistent with much of historical Ismaili doctrine but they are entitled to their views.

[tret]

" that when Imam is the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect, the the presence of the Mazhar of the Divine Command isn't there in the realm of physical?"

The Imams - their souls to be specific - are the mazhar of the Universal Intellect. Now, the Universal Intellect is joined to the Command, so the mazhar of the Intellect is also a mazhar of the Command as well.

But the Qa'im as such is the mazhar of the Command only and not the Intellect.

The Hujjat is the mazhar of the Soul.

You have to realize that Karim Maherali is of a different school of thought. In their view, the Imam is the mazhar of the Godhead, the Transcendant One, and the Hujjat is the mazhar of the Intellect. That is a totally different paradigm which I do not agree with as it is inconsistent with much of historical Ismaili doctrine but they are entitled to their views.

Thanks. In that sense, I agree that the Intellect is identified with the Command and not separate from it. As Oneness is part of One and not separate, only because we see oneness in one.


The way I perceive information, is based on my understanding and values/belief; I guess it's true for anyone. I have realized there are some key differences between my understanding and kmaherali's [Such as the one you mentioned]; And I think by sharing our differences we can learn. I believe it's okay to disagree on matters, so long as we tolerate each other.

Just so you know where I stand on the concept of the Transcendent One. I give an excerpt of Tusi in his Sayr was suluk [Contemplation and Action] that says: Everything that you distinguish by your own estimation, even in its most precise meaning is turned away from HIM and returned to you, it's fabricated by you and created like you.

[Admin]

In Trilogie Ismaélienne, Corbin has given a table of the different views of the 10 intellect at different time.

There is the one that says Imam is Mazhar of the 1st Intellect (universal Spirit) from Fatimid texts and the one that says that the Hujat (PIR) is the Mazhar of the first Intellect which is "instaured" by the Essence preceding the Attributes, He who is above all else, whose Mazhar is the Imam.

That is from Alamut period texts according to Corbin.

In fact the First Intellect is then seen as the totality of divine Attributes while the Imam (as per his declaration in Alamut) transcends all the Attributes.

This last belief is also consistent with Ginans and Granths which Corbin has never studied.

[tret]

In Trilogie Ismaélienne, Corbin has given a table of the different views of the 10 intellect at different time.

What is the significance of 10 and the Philo pay behind it? I can understand the 7.

[Admin]

There are various system called for explaining the subject, some based on 5 and some on 7 and some on 10 or more. To each one his own interpretation. Corbin just compared few of the systems put forth and how they explain the concept of Light and Spirit. Corbin wrote for 50 years on Ismailism before dying in 1978. He had sound scholarship though he was not Ismaili or perhaps was a protestant Christian with an Ismaili heart.

[tret]

There are various system called for explaining the subject, some based on 5 and some on 7 and some on 10 or more. To each one his own interpretation. Corbin just compared few of the systems put forth and how they explain the concept of Light and Spirit. Corbin wrote for 50 years on Ismailism before dying in 1978. He had sound scholarship though he was not Ismaili or perhaps was a protestant Christian with an Ismaili heart.

Yeah, I get that! But, these numbers should have a significance. I don't believe they are just random numbers. i.e. 7 has a significance and I think we all know that. I wonder, what's the significance of 10? So, does Corbin alludes anywhere what the number 10 represents?

[tret]

Science has evolved since the Fatimid period. Time is not only the function of the physcal universe but it extends to non-physical realms as well.

Kmaherali - I'd like you to give us a definition of time, according to today's understanding of Time. So we can see how [much] concept of time has change since then.

[ismailignosis]

``the Essence preceding the Attributes, He who is above all else, whose Mazhar is the Imam. ``

- Admin, Corbin never says the Imam is mazhar of the Essence. Corbin merely relates the Nizari Alamut view that Imam is mazhar of the Command of God. The Command of God is not identical with the Essence of God.

The 10 Intellect model was used by Kirmani but the Fatimids never endorsed it. Only the later Tayyibis took the 10 Intellect model.

The Fatimid model since the time of Imam Muizz has:

God
Command of God
5 Spiritual Hudud: Intellect, Soul, Jadd, Fath, Khayal
5 Physical Hudud: Imam, Bab, Hujjat, Dai Madhun

The Nizaris continued the Fatimid model - but made the Imam mazhar of Command while for Fatimids Imam is mazhar of the Intellect.

Later Nizaris of the Persian, Syrian and Badakhchani traditions retained a synthesis of Fatimid-Nizari model.

In the Ginans, there are different frameworks used. Vishnu-Brahma in one way correspond to Intellect-Soul of Fatimids, but you can also interpret Vishnu-Brahma as Essence-Intellect or Command-Intellect. This is where Karim and Admin are coming from and that is totally fine.

Our faith is pluralistic so Ismailis can go back and reflect on these models.

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali - I'd like you to give us a definition of time, according to today's understanding of Time. So we can see how [much] concept of time has change since then.

Essentially time has shifted from being fixed and objective to something more subjective and elastic.

Below is an extract of an article that was published in The Times of London which I posted elsewhere in the forum.

"The years have not diminished the strength and relevance of that passage. To a large extent what we make of the world is the combined result of our reason and imagination, but those two faculties do not always work in harmony. For those in the forefront of nuclear physics at the moment, reason would suggest things that the imagination could scarcely accept. Relativity and the quantum theory are having a profound effect on our view of the world.

In the good old days of Newtonian physics there was at least a sense of security. Observer and observed were clearly demarcated and the quantification of motion and gravity enabled planetary motion to be predicted correctly. It might well have been expected that those Newtonian laws would also apply to the subatomic world - but not so.

A surprising element of randomness became apparent; electrons, unlike planets, did not seem to conform to laws of motion. Although their collective behaviour could be dealt with on a probability basis, it nevertheless remained true that individual paths were essentially random and indeterminate.

The exact nature of an electron caused difficulties. It appeared to have the qualities of a particle and of a wave. That schizophrenia is also reflected in its peculiar symmetry. Whereas for an ordinary globe spinning on its axis, one complete rotation of the axis would restore the original position, the electron requires two rotations. The first rotation brings round its "alter ego" and another one is necessary to get back its original face.

The electron is indeed a very strange particle and the implications that stem from its behaviour are quite extraordinary. It is one of the supreme ironies of modern physics that, instead of giving us precise answers, it is raising deep philosophical problems and introducing a high degree of subjectivity.

As Professor Paul Davies says. "Fundamental things like duration, length, past, present, and future can no longer be regarded as a dependable framework within which to lead our lives, instead they arc flexible, elastic qualities, and their values depend on precisely who is measuring them."

[kmaherali]

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing this.
However, one remark, and guess it could be the translation and not the origin of the ginan. I think when we say "Form", it is actually the soul that assumes the form, not the spirit! The [Divine] Spirit is not in the realm of physical; however the individual soul [that has already occupied a body "Form"], receives ta'yid perpetually from the Divine Spirit. In case of the Imams and Prophets, their individual souls is constantly aware of their status, and conscious."

MHI in his speech made the remark:

Islam does not deal in dichotomies but in all encompassing unity. Spirit and body are one, man and nature are one. What is more, man is answerable to God for what man has created. Since all that we see and do resonates on the faith, the aesthetics of the environments we build and the quality of the interactions that take place within them reverberate on our spiritual lives. … reflect[ing] who we are in terms of our beliefs, our cultural heritage and our relation to the needs and contexts in which we live in todays world.

His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan IV

Opening Ceremony of the Ismaili Centre, Houston, Texas USA June 23, 2002

From the above I would infer that there is no essential difference between the spirit and the soul. As per the statement above, there is no difference between the Mazhar of the Niranjan (Divine Essence) and the Niranjan (Divine Essence) itself. They are one.

Paramhansa Yogananda explains the nature of the soul and spirit:

The difference between Soul and Spirit is this: The Spirit is ever-existing (Sat), ever-conscious (chit), ever-new omnipresent Joy (Anand); the soul is the individualized reflection of ever-existing, ever-conscious, ever-new Joy, confined within the body of each and every being.

So, our current MHI receives tay'id from all huddod of spiritual realm, the Divine Command, as well as the Divine Intellect and as such Mazhar of both. I agree with you on that part.

According to my view the current Imam is the source of the tayyid. He does not receive it from any where else.

[Admin]

``the Essence preceding the Attributes, He who is above all else, whose Mazhar is the Imam. ``

- Admin, Corbin never says the Imam is mazhar of the Essence. Corbin merely relates the Nizari Alamut view that Imam is mazhar of the Command of God. The Command of God is not identical with the Essence of God.

I disagree. While it is true that Corbin only relate what other Ismaili sources wrote, he has said that, I have personaly heard from the horse's mouth during one of his session at the Sorbonne what I have reported above and I have read ALL of his articles and books on Ismailism. Corbin does relate our belief in various periode and various geographies. one of which is that the Essence is the Imam Mustakar and the Attributes are the Imam Mustawda.

In his translation of the Declaration of Alamut, Corbin assign to the Imam the sentence that says that the Imam transcends all existential determination and he explains that as the Imam being above God the Attributes.

Beside his Spreadhseet tables in Trilogy are very clear on this matter and so is his translation of the Great Qiyamat Farman to which he has also referred in one of his letter to me.

I intend to post that letter at some point on ismaili.net once I find some space to open all the boxes which contain my library as well as the comparison Tables in Trilogy Ismaeliene...

Now I accept that other Ismaiis have an understanding of Imam which is different of mine and of Corbin's and that is normal and they are entitled to have their understanding as Faith is a very personnal internal continuous initiation. But making a blank statement saying that Corbin "never" said this or that is a little far fetched.