Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?

[agakhani]

Ismaili net forum readers,

Karim needs more respect from all of us.


Karim Maherali is a 1987 graduate of the Waezin and Teacher Training Program from the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London, UK.(ISS) His academic credentials include a BSc (Honours) in Actuarial Sciences and a Diploma and MA in Education. He is a frequent contributor on Islamic issues on various blogs, Web sites and newsgroups.

I thought I should tell you guys about him because he is not telling this to anybody in his humbleness !! so, please give him more respects.

[tret]

Ismaili net forum readers,

Karim needs more respect from all of us.


Karim Maherali is a 1987 graduate of the Waezin and Teacher Training Program from the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London, UK.(ISS) His academic credentials include a BSc (Honours) in Actuarial Sciences and a Diploma and MA in Education. He is a frequent contributor on Islamic issues on various blogs, Web sites and newsgroups.

I thought I should tell you guys about him because he is not telling this to anybody in his humbleness !! so, please give him more respects.

Respect is earned, not given! I am sure kmaherali has earned his part. He seems intelligent and respectful towards everyone and I personally admire his contributions in these forums.

[agakhani]

For a specific reason I did not bought that Golden edition farmans book, is there any other way I can listen that audio in voice of MHI?

[Admin]

"Vera te Vahi Gahi" said the Pir and the British translated this by "The train is gone"

There was a window of opportunity for the lucky ones. I am told many of those are still listening to the voice of the Imam on a daily basis.

[kmaherali]

If we use logic, time [6 days in this context] is part of creation. Logically speaking, time is nothing but rotation of spheres and a measure of change. Until the spheres are not created, there is not time..

Science has evolved since the Fatimid period. Time is not only the function of the physcal universe but it extends to non-physical realms as well. For example the astral world will have a different space-time order than that of the physical world.

God says in the Qur'an [I supposed you do believe in the Qur'an] that Ours is a Command, God says 'Be' and there it is. Or similarly, God creates in a blink of an eye...

I have no problem with that. Infact that is what I believe, i.e, creation (physical and spiritual) is constant and perpetual and not only once. MSMS says in his Memoirs:
"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will." Please pay attention to the bolded words which implies physical and spiritual worlds.

However we are faced with a verse which states that the earth and heavens were created in six days. At first I felt that this verse was odd and I even concluded mistakenly that the Qur'an was mistaken! I am merely trying to make sense of it and therefore I gave my own interpretation.

Since creation of heavens and earth is mentioned in the Qur'an, you cannot avoid the physical world in any ta'wil. That is the point I am making.

So the creation [of physical universe] has occurred spontaneously and instantaneously. Here in this verse of Qur'an, the creation [or rather evolution] of spiritual realm. Again, this Tah'wil is according to our great Dais and Hujjats [and remember Hujjats are transmitting knowledge of the Imam].

The article does not mention the creation of the physical world in a moment. A proper ta'wil does not leave someone guessing about it. In my opinion Hujjats are not infallible and also a ta'wil for one particular time may not be relevant for all times.

You are more than welcome to stick to it. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever.
However, you are comparing apples and oranges. Re-read carefully, you will see the difference.

In my opinion the taw'il is also comparing apples (days) to oranges (prophetic cycles)! What is the difference you are alluding to?

[agakhani]

"Vera te Vahi Gahi" said the Pir and the British translated this by "The train is gone"

I just asked you for your help, if you can if not that is fine otherwise I do not need your philosophical thoughts which has many mistakes in that idioms! and let me tell you why I didn't bought that book because it was announced not to buy in Jk.

[Admin]

As I said, you missed the boat, whatever reason. You may try to justify your reason but you deprived yourself of the Farmans of the Imam of the Time for which you can not blame announcements and other people as the final choice on getting the Farmans or not getting them was your own choice... The Noor can show you the path but to close our eyes is your own choice.

[tret]

Science has evolved since the Fatimid period. Time is not only the function of the physcal universe but it extends to non-physical realms as well. For example the astral world will have a different space-time order than that of the physical world.

Can you please re-read what you just wrote? I had no idea that astral world is non-physical!!! Since when?
That's totally news to me. Please elaborate how astral world is non-physical?

[tret]

Since creation of heavens and earth is mentioned in the Qur'an, you cannot avoid the physical world in any ta'wil. That is the point I am making.

Well, I think we do agree that Qur'an uses heavily symbolism and figurative languages. Here, the literal word "Heaven" and "Earth" may not correspond to physical sky and earth. It may symbolize the exoteric and esoteric of the world of faith.

Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salaam says

"...the esoteric sense [batin] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of religion [alam-i-din], whereas the exoteric sense [zahir] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of the world [alam-i-dunya]"
(Tusi, Paradise of Submission - P.124)

The article does not mention the creation of the physical world in a moment. A proper ta'wil does not leave someone guessing about it. In my opinion Hujjats are not infallible and also a ta'wil for one particular time may not be relevant for all times.

You say science has improved and the concept of time has changed.
- MHI said the more science improves, the closer it gets to Islam. [Do you agree with that?]
- What do you think of big bang theory? [Do you agree with it, or disagree?]
- Tah'wil is the interpretation [not translation] of the Qur'an. True that some aspects of it is time-bound [such as prescribed laws]; however the concept and essence of faith doesn't change. [Now if you say essence of faith changes, according to time, then we have a problem]. So to be specific about this verse, this is not something to do with time that its interpretation must change. This is the essence of faith. It's either you accept it [all natiqeen of islam] or reject it. There's no "interpretation according to time".
- So are you suggesting, years from now, someone else will come and interpret this verse differently?

In my opinion the taw'il is also comparing apples (days) to oranges (prophetic cycles)! What is the difference you are alluding to?

You came up with your own interpretation. that's fine with me. But from where I see, the six items you named doesn't have to do anything with the creation of word of faith! the items you subscribe is a path to salvation, not creation [or completion] of the word of faith, that we -- as Muslims -- believe that faith was completed by Prophet Mohammad. That's why I said you are comparing orange[path to salvation] with apple[creation or completion] or the word of faith.

[agakhani]

As I said, you missed the boat, whatever reason. You may try to justify your reason but you deprived yourself of the Farmans of the Imam of the Time for which you can not blame announcements and other people as the final choice on getting the Farmans or not getting them was your own choice... The Noor can show you the path but to close our eyes is your own choice.

You may be right because I do not have that video that is for sure but I just obeyed that "not to purchase announcement made in JK so, I have no regret if I missed the boat and not having that video!. but at least I have peace of mind that I have obeyed the announcements whether it was made in JK with or without permission from MHI.

[tret]

As I said, you missed the boat, whatever reason. You may try to justify your reason but you deprived yourself of the Farmans of the Imam of the Time for which you can not blame announcements and other people as the final choice on getting the Farmans or not getting them was your own choice... The Noor can show you the path but to close our eyes is your own choice.

You may be right because I do not have that video that is for sure but I just obeyed that "not to purchase announcement made in JK so, I have no regret if I missed the boat and not having that video!. but at least I have peace of mind that I have obeyed the announcements whether it was made in JK with or without permission from MHI.

I was in that same situation back in 2010 in texas, and didn't buy it, because it was announced in JK. And I think most all Jama'at did the same thing.

[kmaherali]

Well, I think we do agree that Qur'an uses heavily symbolism and figurative languages. Here, the literal word "Heaven" and "Earth" may not correspond to physical sky and earth. It may symbolize the exoteric and esoteric of the world of faith..

I agree with you that Quran is highly symbolic. However we are not really discussing the Qur'an but the taw'il of the Hujjat as discussed in the article.
I said the article said that it was not about the physical world and it was only about the spiritual. I found that odd. Mind you nothing to do with the Qur'an but with the tawil. You said that physical world is created in a moment, which is fine but that was not stated in the article!

You say science has improved and the concept of time has changed.
- MHI said the more science improves, the closer it gets to Islam. [Do you agree with that?

I don't recall him saying that but I do recall him saying that there is no conflict between faith and science in Islam. So what about it?

- What do you think of big bang theory? [Do you agree with it, or disagree?]

If it means creation happened at one point in time, I disagree. But if it means that creation is continuous then I agree with it. So what about it.

- Tah'wil is the interpretation [not translation] of the Qur'an. True that some aspects of it is time-bound [such as prescribed laws]; however the concept and essence of faith doesn't change. [Now if you say essence of faith changes, according to time, then we have a problem]. So to be specific about this verse, this is not something to do with time that its interpretation must change. This is the essence of faith. It's either you accept it [all natiqeen of islam] or reject it. There's no "interpretation according to time".
- So are you suggesting, years from now, someone else will come and interpret this verse differently?

Can you be specific. What is the essence of faith in this case? Do you mean that creation of the world in 6 days is the essence of faith? Or do you mean that the ta'wil of the Hujjat is the essence of faith?O yes I hope and pray that someone can come up with a better ta'wil in future. Taw'il is always subject to change just as the Farmans of the Imam are subject to change. You are not suggesting that this tawil should be applicable at all times, or are you?

You came up with your own interpretation. that's fine with me. But from where I see, the six items you named doesn't have to do anything with the creation of word of faith! the items you subscribe is a path to salvation, not creation [or completion] of the word of faith, that we -- as Muslims -- believe that faith was completed by Prophet Mohammad. That's why I said you are comparing orange[path to salvation] with apple[creation or completion] or the word of faith.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I have no problem with that.

[tret]

I agree with you that Quran is highly symbolic. However we are not really discussing the Qur'an but the taw'il of the Hujjat as discussed in the article.
I said the article said that it was not about the physical world and it was only about the spiritual. I found that odd. Mind you nothing to do with the Qur'an but with the tawil. You said that physical world is created in a moment, which is fine but that was not stated in the article!

I think it's very relevant. Let me break it down once again.

You said, "Since creation of heavens and earth is mentioned in the Qur'an, you cannot avoid the physical world in any ta'wil. That is the point I am making."
I said in your response, that Qur'an is full of symbolism, and the term heaven and earth may not mean in its literal meaning as [sky and earth]. And backed up by Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salaam's Farmaan, that it has esoteric meaning as well. Hence, the creation in six days doesn't mean physical universe, but rather world of faith.

I don't recall him saying that but I do recall him saying that there is no conflict between faith and science in Islam. So what about it?

Then why do you say, science has improved. the definition of Time has changed, and now whatever Ismailis [Or Islam for that matter] was teaching back then, has to be discarded since science has improved. Remember, as MHI said, science and Islam has no conflict.
And you are yet to give me an answer how astral world is non-physical?... tic toc...

If it means creation happened at one point in time, I disagree. But if it means that creation is continuous then I agree with it. So what about it.

Well, please then do some little search about it. Google is at your finger tips.

Can you be specific. What is the essence of faith in this case? Do you mean that creation of the world in 6 days is the essence of faith? Or do you mean that the ta'wil of the Hujjat is the essence of faith?O yes I hope and pray that someone can come up with a better ta'wil in future. Taw'il is always subject to change just as the Farmans of the Imam are subject to change. You are not suggesting that this tawil should be applicable at all times, or are you?

It is part of the essence of our faith. It validates our believe in our past Natiqeen and Awsia, which in turn validates the concept of Imamate being ever present and shall continue. It validates the perfection of Din of Islam with Prophet Mohammad [6th day or "Friday"] and beginning of dawr of Imamate as Manifest Imam. What else do you want to consider as essence of faith? Do you think this essence will change in couple decades?
I suggest you re-read the article I provided, with an open mind [don't think oh it's from a Persian Dai' and therefore, I must not agree with it, please. We are all in this together.]

You came up with your own interpretation. that's fine with me. But from where I see, the six items you named doesn't have to do anything with the creation of word of faith! the items you subscribe is a path to salvation, not creation [or completion] of the word of faith, that we -- as Muslims -- believe that faith was completed by Prophet Mohammad. That's why I said you are comparing orange[path to salvation] with apple[creation or completion] or the word of faith.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I have no problem with that.

It's my opinion and it is based on one of the greatest Dai's of Ismailis teachings. However, you came up with your version, based on your opinion. So you are also entitled to your opinion, and I am absolutely fine with that. After all, our faith teaches pluralism and tolerance which is what I am practicing right now. I wish you well in your wayfaring and soul searching quest.

[kmaherali]

Can you please re-read what you just wrote? I had no idea that astral world is non-physical!!! Since when?
That's totally news to me. Please elaborate how astral world is non-physical?

According to the definition given in the Oxford dictionary.

Relating to a supposed non-physical realm of existence to which various psychic and paranormal phenomena are ascribed, and in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ish/astral

For detailed explanation of the difference between astral and physical worlds you may want to read the following.

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php

Just in a nutshell....

"You have read in the scriptures," Master went on, "that God encased the human soul successively in three bodies-the idea, or causal, body; the subtle astral body, seat of man's mental and emotional natures; and the gross physical body. On earth a man is equipped with his physical senses. An astral being works with his consciousness and feelings and a body made of lifetrons.2 A causal-bodied being remains in the blissful realm of ideas. My work is with those astral beings who are preparing to enter the causal world."

[kmaherali]

And backed up by Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salaam's Farmaan, that it has esoteric meaning as well. Hence, the creation in six days doesn't mean physical universe, but rather world of faith.

The Imam says according to your post

"...the esoteric sense [batin] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of religion [alam-i-din], whereas the exoteric sense [zahir] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of the world [alam-i-dunya]"
(Tusi, Paradise of Submission - P.124)

So the Imam did not ignore the physical world but the ta'wil ignores it.

Then why do you say, science has improved. the definition of Time has changed, and now whatever Ismailis [Or Islam for that matter] was teaching back then, has to be discarded since science has improved Remember, as MHI said, science and Islam has no conflict.

Are you saying that what is Islamic is only of the past - that we should ignore modern discoveries.?

Science always improves because creation is continuous. New discoveries will always be found. There is no conflict with Islam here because Islam acknowledges new discoveries as aspects of Allah's creation. Since the concpet and understanding of time has changed, we should follow the present understanding and not the past.MHI says in his speech:

"Indeed, one strength of Islam has always lain in its belief that creation is not static but continuous, that through scientific and other endeavours, God has opened, and continues to open, new windows for us to see the marvels of His creation”. – Aga Khan IV, Inaugural Address to Aga Khan University

Well, please then do some little search about it. Google is at your finger tips..

OK it states that creation originated from one explosion. I agree with it, So what?

It is part of the essence of our faith. It validates our believe in our past Natiqeen and Awsia, which in turn validates the concept of Imamate being ever present and shall continue. It validates the perfection of Din of Islam with Prophet Mohammad [6th day or "Friday"] and beginning of dawr of Imamate as Manifest Imam. What else do you want to consider as essence of faith? Do you think this essence will change in couple decades?
I suggest you re-read the article I provided, with an open mind [don't think oh it's from a Persian Dai' and therefore, I must not agree with it, please. We are all in this together.].

So you are saying that the essence of the faith is based upon the ta'wil of a Dai. I would only consider the ta'wil made by the Imam for a given time as authoritative. MSMS says in his Memoirs:
"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost."
Hence we do not only believe in the 6 Prophets as per the ta'wil.

Surely we are all in together. I have no problems with the material from a persian Dai since I also follow the Ginans of our Pirs who originated from Iran. I wish you well in your journey.

[tret]

The Imam says according to your post

"...the esoteric sense [batin] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of religion [alam-i-din], whereas the exoteric sense [zahir] of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of the world [alam-i-dunya]"
(Tusi, Paradise of Submission - P.124)

So the Imam did not ignore the physical world but the ta'wil ignores it.

kmaherali, I think you are taking things out of its context now. What is you are trying to prove?

a) The reference of the Imam I gave you, was simply to prove to you that "Heaven and Earth", in that verse of Qur'an doesn't mean literal, but has esoteric meaning! So, you realize that it doesn't mean in its physical term! That's what Farmaan of the Imam says. Do you agree?

b) Now do you imply that Imam is correct, but His Hujjat is wrong?

c) If I recall correctly, you mentioned in one of your posts that in presence of Hujjat [aka Pir according to ginanc texts], it is the Pir who makes Farmaan, and not the Imam. I kind of agree with you in this sense, because the knowledge of Hujjat is coming from the ta'yid of the Imam. So, in the presnce of Pir, it's actually the teachings of Pir that should be followed. Similarly, to refuse teachings of Hujjat[at any given time], implies refusing the teaching of the Imam. I am not sure if you realize?

Are you saying that what is Islamic is only of the past - that we should ignore modern discoveries.?

I never said that. You rather imply that when science improves, we should discard our previous tah'wils of the Qur'an!! That's exactly what you imply. Which I completely disagree! That's why MHI says science and Islam has no conflict. So, in essence the [Correct] tah'wil of the Qur'an whether it's from 1000 years ago is as valid is 10 days ago!!!

Science always improves because creation is continuous. New discoveries will always be found. There is no conflict with Islam here because Islam acknowledges new discoveries as aspects of Allah's creation. Since the concpet and understanding of time has changed, we should follow the present understanding and not the past.MHI says in his speech:

Okay, so please go ahead and give us the correct tah'wil of the vers of Qur'an according to present understanding of time? Don't tell me the six stage or path that you came up with, which is your opinion, alone!

"Indeed, one strength of Islam has always lain in its belief that creation is not static but continuous, that through scientific and other endeavours, God has opened, and continues to open, new windows for us to see the marvels of His creation”. – Aga Khan IV, Inaugural Address to Aga Khan University

Okay, I agree with this. What's your point?

So you are saying that the essence of the faith is based upon the ta'wil of a Dai. I would only consider the ta'wil made by the Imam for a given time as authoritative.

And yet you agree with the verse of ginan...

Do you agree with the doctrine of Tah'lim? Let me know, because this will answer your own question.

[Admin]

Come back to the topic which is Adam being the first ...

[tret]

Come back to the topic which is Adam being the first ...

Admin - this actually on topic. Kmaherali is trying to reject the tah'wil of the verse of the Qur'an, because it doesn't add up with the concept of pre-adam prophecies.

[Admin]

I have followed the discussion which is very interesting but again I request you not to be distracted by issues which are really different and should be discussed in another thread so please come back to Adam [and Eve if you find her more interesting ].

[Admin]

I think it would equally be interesting to know from some doctors how we can fabricated another Eve from Adam's stem cells.

[agakhani]

so please come back to Adam [and Eve if you find her more interesting icon_wink.gif].

Eve!!!?? Eve is history, and no doctors has come forward to fabricate Eve so far! so we have to rely on ZZNoor right now and I promise she is more interesting than Eve in this forum for many including myself too and may be.........????? Don't you believe this then ask her supporters ? Noor, am I right?

[tret]

I think it would equally be interesting to know from some doctors how we can fabricated another Eve from Adam's stem cells.

So, do you think in its literal form?

this is the problem with us, humans. When we don't understand something, then we automatically think it must be not true, because logically doesn't make any sense. Well, God [and God's words] well surpass our humanly logic. that's why we have a guide at each epoch. Instead of making a mockery of it, why don't we contemplate and try and understand it?

Logically, to any normal person it would seem ridiculous to make a woman out of a man. But, does God really mean this literally? MHI at closing of His speech at Parliament of Canada recently, mentioned a verse from the Qur'an, that said God created human from a single soul. Some food for thought!

[agakhani]

Tret,

It was just a joke from Admin!! about the fabrication of Eve, I think you are mature enough to understand these kind innocent joke!

Other than that I do not see any thing wrong in his above comments, do you see any objective thing in it?

[Admin]

They say that to understand a joke beside the sense of humour you need either maturity or intelligence, just one of those two is enough

[tret]

They say that to understand a joke beside the sense of humour you need either maturity or intelligence, just one of those two is enough

I had no idea, these forums are a means to deliver cheap jokes.

A wise and mature person doesn't get personal in a discussion. You just made a personal remark about me, instead of providing a logical respond, should you have any at all.

But in all seriousness and jokes aside, I kind of can conclude what's your position on this topic, provided you aren't a believer in the Qur'an.

[tret]

Tret,

It was just a joke from Admin!! about the fabrication of Eve, I think you are mature enough to understand these kind innocent joke!

Other than that I do not see any thing wrong in his above comments, do you see any objective thing in it?

Oh, I got his joke alright. But, behind his joke, lies his actual belief. That's why I asked him the question. So, lets see what he has to say.

[ismailignosis]

The Adam of the Bible and the Qur'an who is the first Prophet or Natiq of our 7,000 year cycle was NOT the first human being.

Indeed, the 7 Days of Creation mentioned in the Bible and Qur'an refer to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and the Qa'im al-Qiyamah.

But there were Cycles before these prophets and there was a lineage of Imams existing in the Pre-Adamic cycles.

More information on the Cycles, pre Adam and post Adam, are available in this article along with a Table.

http://ismailignosis.com/2012/07/09/fro ... -imamat-2/

[kmaherali]

Deleted

[kmaherali]

kmaherali, I think you are taking things out of its context now. What is you are trying to prove?

a) The reference of the Imam I gave you, was simply to prove to you that "Heaven and Earth", in that verse of Qur'an doesn't mean literal, but has esoteric meaning! So, you realize that it doesn't mean in its physical term! That's what Farmaan of the Imam says. Do you agree?

b) Now do you imply that Imam is correct, but His Hujjat is wrong?

I made a statement regarding a ta'wil involving 'earth and heavens' based on the statement of the Imam on the same issue. In my view it is perfectly within context. You can disagree with it that is fine and I will not argue with you on that. However I would like to read the complete section of the Imam's statement from the book. I don't have it with me. Do you mind posting it if it is not too long? I am only implying that the Hujjat has not taken consideration of the physical to which the Imam alluded. I am not making any judgement whether he was right or wrong but the ta'wil seems incomplete without any reference to the physical.

c) If I recall correctly, you mentioned in one of your posts that in presence of Hujjat [aka Pir according to ginanc texts], it is the Pir who makes Farmaan, and not the Imam. I kind of agree with you in this sense, because the knowledge of Hujjat is coming from the ta'yid of the Imam. So, in the presnce of Pir, it's actually the teachings of Pir that should be followed. Similarly, to refuse teachings of Hujjat[at any given time], implies refusing the teaching of the Imam. I am not sure if you realize?

The Imam's statement is the basis of any judgement. If statements from the past Hujjats and Pirs contradict the current statement of the Imam then I would reject them. In this case I have shown that the ta'will contradicts the statements made by MSMS viz constant and perpetual creation and the number of prophets.

I never said that. You rather imply that when science improves, we should discard our previous tah'wils of the Qur'an!! That's exactly what you imply. Which I completely disagree! That's why MHI says science and Islam has no conflict. So, in essence the [Correct] tah'wil of the Qur'an whether it's from 1000 years ago is as valid is 10 days ago!!! ?

I have said that the ta'wil can change and it is not static. The ta'wil made 1000 years ago although very appropriate for its context, may not be relevant today. I have demonstrated based of MSMS's statements why this ta'wil is not approriate today.

Okay, so please go ahead and give us the correct tah'wil of the vers of Qur'an according to present understanding of time? Don't tell me the six stage or path that you came up with, which is your opinion, alone!

It is my opinion and it satisfies my needs so I am happy with it. I am not asking you to accept it.
OK another possible tafsir can be the 6 phases of evolution of life.
1- Water and air
2- Minerals
3- Plants
4 - Life originating from eggs (fishes, insects and birds)
5- Life originating from womb (mammals)
6 - Man (Crown of creation)

The heavens would be the spiritual counterparts - astral water, astral plants etc.

The point I am making is that if you open up yourself to the fact that the ta'wil can change, than you can be inspired to find a suitable one for yourself. You are very intelligent and I am sure you can come up with something better then the above two that I have provided.In fact we should draw inspiration from the past Hujjat for his ability to allegorize days into prophetic cycles, but not necessarily agree to his ta'wil for the present time.

It is like the Sharia. If you don't accept that the Sharia evolves, then you are stuck with the past.

"Indeed, one strength of Islam has always lain in its belief that creation is not static but continuous, that through scientific and other endeavours, God has opened, and continues to open, new windows for us to see the marvels of His creation”. – Aga Khan IV, Inaugural Address to Aga Khan University

Okay, I agree with this. What's your point?

I just quoted this to back up my statement before about the advances of science and the concept of time.

So you are saying that the essence of the faith is based upon the ta'wil of a Dai. I would only consider the ta'wil made by the Imam for a given time as authoritative.

And yet you agree with the verse of ginan...

The verse of the Ginan says exacltly what the verse in the Qur'an says i.e, that the world was created in 6 days. Hence there is no difference between the Qur'an and the Ginans both of which are allegorical and subject to personal interpretation. However the tawil differs.

Do you agree with the doctrine of Tah'lim? Let me know, because this will answer your own question.

The principle of ta'lim that is the authoritative religious guidance of a legitimate Imam, is fundamental to Shia Islam. (Contemplation and Action) I agree with it. So how does this fit into our discussion?

In summary, I do not accept the ta'wil provided by the Hujjat because:
1. It does not consider the creation of the physical domain.
2. It does not consider the Prophets and Imams prior to Hazarat Adam and indeed does not consider the rest of 124,000 prophets.
3. It restricts creation to a given time frame (time frame of the 6 Prophets) as opposed to being constant and perpetual.

[agakhani]

OK folks! I, waited and waited in hope that this discussion of "creation"will be find some kind solution or answer but it is failed as it was failed many times before, the reasons is very simple we have forgotten the real and reliable source of Ginan, in which you can find the right answer how the first creation was made by Allah? so dig the ginans.