Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.

[Valani]

I have joined this forum after a pretty long time!

I feel i am again interested in learning and sharing my own learning. BTW the more I tried to learn, the more I realized that i do not know anything, as Allah SWT has said in glorious Quran Allah knows - you don’t know.

Here i pose a few questions for the learned ones to explain from their own as well as Official Ismaili points of views, the questions are:

1)What was the purpose of creating what has been created, including Earth, Skies, Angels, Jinn, and lastly Men - in a nutshell, the whole creation?

2) Is the creation separate from the creator or is a part of it?

3) If the creation is an extension of the creator himself (i.e. what is created is within the thought/wish/realms of the creator) and the ultimate goal for men is to finally have unification "Visaal" with the creator. Then it is a bit confusing as everything is already a part of the creator, it is never separate from HIM then where is the question of having a unification again because the thing that is separate will only unify and not the one which is already a part of the entity?

4) Does life ever end? The popular Islamic belief derived from Quran inspires that life on earth will end with the Qayamah and the Day of Judgment and after that the next phase of life will begin which will be eternal. Does Ismaili doctrine believe in an end to the life or a perpetuation of it, i.e. a circular movement which has no beginning no end?

I think these questions are enough for now. I will really welcome some seriously thoughtful answers. About myself, I was born in an Ismaili family, at present I perform 5 times Salat and keep Som in Ramadhan - I am telling about myself so you know upfront of who you are discussing with.

With kind regards
Valani

[kmaherali]

Bro Valani,

I would suggest that you read the Chapter in the Memoirs of Aga Khan titled "Islam the Religion of My Ancestors' written by out 48th Imam. You will get all your answers from there. After reading, if you feel you need to discuss further, you may pose your questions again.

It can be accessed online at:

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[Valani]

Thank you Kmaherali for your reply and useful link!

I appreciate your immediate response and have read the whole article you have provided link off. The article is a nice one and deals with a whole lot of things quite nicely, but am afraid it dealt with only one of my questions and that too partially (the question # 2).

I still feel a need for a to-the-point kind of answers of my question, be they your own answers.

Kind regards
Valani

[kmaherali]

Thank you Kmaherali for your reply and useful link!

I appreciate your immediate response and have read the whole article you have provided link off. The article is a nice one and deals with a whole lot of things quite nicely, but am afraid it dealt with only one of my questions and that too partially (the question # 2).

I still feel a need for a to-the-point kind of answers of my question, be they your own answers.

Kind regards
Valani

There is a thread which discusses the issues you have raised.


WHY ALLAH CREATED THE UNIVERSE?

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... n+treasure

Go through the thread and if there are further questions, raise them there.

[tret]

2) Is the creation separate from the creator or is a part of it?

3) If the creation is an extension of the creator himself (i.e. what is created is within the thought/wish/realms of the creator) and the ultimate goal for men is to finally have unification "Visaal" with the creator. Then it is a bit confusing as everything is already a part of the creator, it is never separate from HIM then where is the question of having a unification again because the thing that is separate will only unify and not the one which is already a part of the entity? i

Dear Valani -

Regarding your question 2 here's what MSM says:

“God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time.”
- Imām Sulṭān Muḥammad Shāh Āgā Khān III

I don't think creation is an extension of God, but rather creation is encompassed within God.


Your question #3 is actually related to the doctrine of Tawh'id. I don't think when it is said that creation is encompassed within God, actually implies the unity with the Divine.

Sufi order says when one becomes united with the Divine, he[the individual soul] becomes one with the Divine, and as such there's no distinction.

Ismaili doctrine of Tawh'id dictates that, when one [individual soul] unites with the Divine, is in constant recognition of the Divine and as such the Divine constantly and perpetually identifies him [the individual soul] with the Divine.

An analogy would be when Sun is out, we can see everything, but when the sun goes down [at night] we don't. So, unity [wahdat] according to Ismaili order, is to be in constant recognition of the Divine, which different than Sufi's of become one with the Divine. In other words, if one is in constant recognition of the Divine, but at some point he [the individual soul] forgets, then he no longer is in unity.

[Valani]

Thank you for your reply Tret!

I am glad to see your answers, although they do not cover the question in its entirety, in my opinion. However, it does reflect the point of view of Ismaili order specifically.

I feel all the questions I have asked are somehow interrelated and unless they all are answered at once the whole issue can not be adressed fittingly.

I would appreciate answers of all four questions by the same person, this will help understanding the entire thing from "Ibda" untill "Akhirah".

I really appreciate your answers though, and would be glad to receive responses from other learned contributors as well. It would be glad to know if the person attempting to answer the questions has actually been able to have any such spritual experience by himself/herself.

Kind regards
Salim

[agakhani]

Valani,

However the creation topic has been discussed in past in this forum but let me put my 2 cents opinion since you have asked to answer every one so, let me try too.

Before we start let me make it clear that every religion has different approach, belief and thinking on this subject so I will concentrate only on Ismaili sect belief as per ginans , farmans and some what Quran.

1)What was the purpose of creating what has been created, including Earth, Skies, Angels, Jinn, and lastly Men - in a nutshell, the whole creation?

As per Quran Allah was hidden treasure and he decided to become known ( or come in light) so he created whole universe.

According ginans same belief as described above.

2) Is the creation separate from the creator or is a part of it?

It is part of it, a driver who drive the car can not be separate he is also the part of car during driving the car! same way Allah is part of universe even though he has no shape.

3) If the creation is an extension of the creator himself (i.e. what is created is within the thought/wish/realms of the creator) and the ultimate goal for men is to finally have unification "Visaal" with the creator. Then it is a bit confusing as everything is already a part of the creator, it is never separate from HIM then where is the question of having a unification again because the thing that is separate will only unify and not the one which is already a part of the entity?

I do not think it is a extension from the creator (Allah ).
Allahtala created the human being as a superior over other creation but he has not created from him self.
Not he gives birth to any one nor he had got birth from any one -Surah Akhlas
In my opinion souls are the part of Allah's noor not the human bodies so when we dies slowly but surely our soul merges in Allah's noor.

4, Does life ever end? The popular Islamic belief derived from Quran inspires that life on earth will end with the Qayamah and the Day of Judgment and after that the next phase of life will begin which will be eternal. Does Ismaili doctrine believe in an end to the life or a perpetuation of it, i.e. a circular movement which has no beginning no end?

Yes, As per ginanic literature we receive human life after 84,000.00 (called Lakh chorasi) thus our soul evaluated from many different sepsis before, however human life is the last chance for to achive fanafillah or get ASAL MA WASAL stage, if any souls reach fanafillah stage then his/her life end merging in the noor of Allah.

Islamic belief is different then Ismaili belief we do not denied about kayamat but I do not believe that any deceased souls has to wait till the day of Kayamat in my thinking souls come and go it take rebirth again and again till he reach last stage as described above.
Please remember no coping and pasting here only my thinking.

[tret]

..Islamic belief is different then Ismaili belief...

So are you suggesting that Ismaili beliefs are non-Islamic? Or in other words Ismailies are not Muslim?

This is absurd to consider Ismaili as non-Muslim. MHI opened the Museum in Toronto recently as Islamic Museum [Not Ismaili Museum].

[tret]

4) Does life ever end? The popular Islamic belief derived from Quran inspires that life on earth will end with the Qayamah and the Day of Judgment and after that the next phase of life will begin which will be eternal. Does Ismaili doctrine believe in an end to the life or a perpetuation of it, i.e. a circular movement which has no beginning no end?

We have repeatedly heard MHI saying that our 'soul is eternal'. So, this means there's another life [a better one] is after this temporal life, awaiting for us. We should prepare for that, which is eternal.

As for Qyamah, Ismailis have different interpretation of it, than mainstream Muslims; I believe there has been already discussion on this forum which has very informative details [you may need to do a search]. Qyamah according to Ismaili doctrine is revelation of esoteric exegesis of religious law [exoteric principals] and it can be on various scale. The start of 7th major cycle will indicate the cycle of Resurrection, which started with our 49th Imam according to some scholars, where Imamate mandate and activities extend beyond Jama'at at a large scale, as we witness today the activities of AKDN and other Imamatie institutions globally beyond our Jama'at. I am not too sure about soul getting rebirth physically, but spiritually, certainly a soul can elevate to higher sphere by apprehending knowledge of Taw'hid and The Divine.

We know the universe had a beginning [according to most all religions], and will probably have an end. No one knows for sure when and how, except the Imam of the Time.

[agakhani]

So are you suggesting that Ismaili beliefs are non-Islamic? Or in other words Ismailies are not Muslim?

Ismailis are Muslim first then after they are an Ismailis

let me ask you this! does other Muslims believes in reincarnation? rebirths? yes or not! Ifyour answer is no then that is what I am talking about that Ismailis belief in regard of soul's rebirth is different than most Muslims.

[kmaherali]

4) Does life ever end? The popular Islamic belief derived from Quran inspires that life on earth will end with the Qayamah and the Day of Judgment and after that the next phase of life will begin which will be eternal. Does Ismaili doctrine believe in an end to the life or a perpetuation of it, i.e. a circular movement which has no beginning no end?

There is a discussion on this subject at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

[kmaherali]

3) If the creation is an extension of the creator himself (i.e. what is created is within the thought/wish/realms of the creator) and the ultimate goal for men is to finally have unification "Visaal" with the creator. Then it is a bit confusing as everything is already a part of the creator, it is never separate from HIM then where is the question of having a unification again because the thing that is separate will only unify and not the one which is already a part of the entity?

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

Every part of creation has a soul (aspect of God), but are not God in a complete manner. Man however has the potential to become God completely through Ibadat. The process of elevation is from a partial God to a complete God.

There is further discussion on this at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

[tret]

Every part of creation has a soul (aspect of God), but are not God in a complete manner. Man however has the potential to become God completely through Ibadat. The process of elevation is from a partial God to a complete God.

So are you taking the sufi stand here that man can unite with God and become one?
So if a disciple elevates to higher sphere and unites with the Divine, then disciple become master and there won't be any distinction, according to you.

That's one major difference between the sufi and Ismailis on the doctrine of taw'hid and wahdat [unity and unification with the Divine]. Ismaili order doesn't say that disciple becomes one with the divine, but rather one constantly remembers the Divine and as such the Divine continuously identifies the disciple.

Refer to "Sair wa Suluk" of Tusi where he beautifully explains this.

[kmaherali]

So are you taking the sufi stand here that man can unite with God and become one?

Yes, there is a verse from the Ginan Satgur Sathe Gothari Kije which states:

jeere vaalaa pad mugateenaa sarave saadh leennaa(n)
to sat cheet aana(n)d - re vaalaa
kahe gur sohodev amane sree haree maleeyaa
jem saritaa saayar maa(n)he samaannee - re vaalaa....5

Oh loved ones, all the saints (devoted souls) will attain the exalted rank of freedom which contains the experience of the Truth, Consciousness and Joy (sat chit anand). The Guide Sohdev
(Peer Sadardeen) says: "we have attained the Lord in the manner
of small rivers meeting and blending with the ocean".

Of course after blending with the ocean, an enlightened person may still engage in the world with constant awareness and experience of the Ocean.

[The state of sat chit anand is the one in which the truth,

consciousness or faith and anand occur simultaneously.

Joy accompanies true faith and is indeed the sign of true faith.

One cannot have one without the other.]

[agakhani]

So are you taking the sufi stand here that man can unite with God and become one?

let me ask you this?
By now what meaning you have taken so far of the word 'FANAFILLAH" and our JK language 'ASAL ME WASAL" which I quoted dozen of times in this thread?
Bro this is what I am trying to tell you that every human soul unite with God soon or later! but you never come out from the heavy influence of your wrong mentor! remember this if you have question find the answer in ginans! Ok..

[tret]

... the saints (devoted souls) will attain the exalted rank ..

Pay very close attention, as everything is in details.

- "Attain the exalted rank" is not the same as "Become the exalted"

This is the difference between sufi and Ismaili doctrine of Tawhid.

Ismailies always distinguish the authoritative master from disciple; even if the disciple attained the rank of the exalted. The disciple doesn't become master. I hope you see the difference.

[Admin]

The Disciple becomes One with the Master in Ismailism but only after death, when he attains that unity with the Noor.

[kmaherali]

Ismailies always distinguish the authoritative master from disciple; even if the disciple attained the rank of the exalted. The disciple doesn't become master. I hope you see the difference.

The following are verses from See Harfee which reinforce my view of the disciple transforming him/herself into the status of the Guide. I have highlighted in bold the key sentences.

paaras parase kare a(n)g soha(n)gaa
bhut aatmaa kare neej ra(n)gaa....................................1

When the philosopher's stone (holy name) touches it makes the body Divine. It transforms the body into it's own nature.

dehaa jeev fanaa kar ddaale
ek hee bhrahm maa(n)he aapas mahaale..............................2

It annihilates the body and soul and unites them into God.

jeevte jeev jeene apannaa khoyaa
jeevte aapaku(n) aapahee paayaa...................................3

The soul that has lost itself while alive, has indeed attained the realisation of itself.

satgur kirpaa neej huee sa(m)purann
khalak khaalak dohee ekahee sa(n)furann...........................4

Through the grace of the True Guide, one is fulfilled. There is the realization that the creation and the creator are from the same source (hence divinity is all pervasive, complete understanding of Islam is attained).

jeevan mugat jeev apannaa dekhe
mahaamugataa jeev palpal pekhe....................................5

He experiences the freedom of his soul while alive in this world. Gradually his soul achieves the status of higher freedom.

akha(n)dd vaa(n)ku neej hay aana(n)daa
aana(n)daa soheeje paramaana(n)daa................................6

He experiences unbroken joy and peace in himself. This joy is indeed the higher joy (of the soul).

guruchelaa na rahyaa koee
sohee rahyaa jaa(n)su sesttee hoee................................7

In this state, the relationship of the guide and the disciple dissolves and what remains is that from which the universe originated.

sarjannhaaraa soek anekaa
guruchelaa sab usame(n) chhekaa...................................8

The Creator is one, assuming many forms. The guide/disciple relationship is one of them.

aapakhoyaa tab paayaa maram
dekhedikhaave soha(n)g bhrahm.....................................9

When one loses himself, he attains the mysteries. He sees and shows God to others (through his enlightened behaviour and knowledge).

keett bhamareekaa tame dekho khelaa
esaa paayaa gur su(n) chelaa.....................................10

Look at the relationship between a worm (larva) and a bee. When a worm endures the leaking of a bee, it is transformed into the nature of the bee. Similarly when a disciple rigorously follows the guide, he is transformed into the nature of the Guide, i.e. becomes Divine himself.


re tu(n)hee, saheje seetallamaholme(n), jo sanmukh peeyujee paayare
ahmed tab vaeku(n)thh kee, aashaa kare balaayare

O You, when one attains the Beloved face to face in a state of coolness and comfort, Sayyed Ahmed Shah says that for such a person the desire for paradise is dissolved, i.e. there is no need for any other better state than this.

[kmaherali]

The Disciple becomes One with the Master in Ismailism but only after death, when he attains that unity with the Noor.

According to MSMS's statement below the highest points can be recahed in this life.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

[tret]

The following are verses from See Harfee which reinforce my view of the disciple transforming him/herself into the status of the Guide....

I am not sure if you even realize that you are saying what I am saying?

I am saying that the following are 2 different doctrine:
- achieving the status of the divine.
- become one with the divine. (Or becoming the divine)

I am saying according to the doctrine of tah'lim that was reinforced by Sayydna Hassan Sabah, disciple can not become the master (even if the disciple apprehend the knowledge of rawhid).

I give you a realistic example to make my point.

Our great Da'is and Pir's most certainly achieved the status of the highest rank, but I am certain you agree with me that we still can't consider them as the Imam. That's why the relation of murid and murshid must always be maintained, unlike sufis who do not subscribe to the order of the divine authoritative teacher like ismailis do.

I hope this is clear to you now.

[kmaherali]

I give you a realistic example to make my point.

Our great Da'is and Pir's most certainly achieved the status of the highest rank, but I am certain you agree with me that we still can't consider them as the Imam. That's why the relation of murid and murshid must always be maintained, unlike sufis who do not subscribe to the order of the divine authoritative teacher like ismailis do.

I hope this is clear to you now.

The Pirs and dais could attain the spiritual status of the Imam but they would not function as Imams. There can only be one person who can function as the Imam and is recognised as such but there could be many who could attain the spiritual status of the Imams as indicated by the verses of See Harfee.

I hope that is clear to you, if not then let us agree to disagree.

[kmaherali]

The Pirs and dais could attain the spiritual status of the Imam but they would not function as Imams. There can only be one person who can function as the Imam and is recognised as such but there could be many who could attain the spiritual status of the Imams as indicated by the verses of See Harfee.

I hope that is clear to you, if not then let us agree to disagree.

I just want to elaborate further on this by:

By becoming one with God a person is equivalent in spiritual status to the Imam and is qualified to be the Imam. However he cannot function as the Imam because there can only be one Imam according to doctrine.

Just as two persons can be qualified to be a head of state, but only one person can function as such.

[Valani]

Dear All

From what I have read from all of you (principally following Ismaili beliefs) is that many of you differ from each others on basic issues that pertain to the faith (Imaan) is that true?

If this is so, don't you think a need to have a clear statement from the guide the Imam himself on all the basic questions that cause split opinion. The other questions that are related to the above statements are:

1) What is the purpose of having an Imam (a living guide) if you have to dig the answers of basic issues related to belief by yourself.

2) If Ginans (which are very much in parables) are considered Tafseer (interprtation/exegecies) of Quran and they themselves required a fair amount of interpretation, how does this work.

3) The basic question thus becomes what is Imaan in Ismaili doctrine: as per Quran it is clear to have a faith in Allah, Malaaika, Rusul, Qayama, Life after Death, Jannat and Dozakh and Gaib and to have a firm faith that RasoolAllah was Allah's last Rasool.

I hope you would like to answer these questions as per your own as well as official Ismaili point of views.

Please don't take anything as insulting, it is not, I cannot and do not want to question anyone who is a Qalmago - I believe only Allah will tell us what was right and what was wrong on the day of judgement and if someone has made some honest mistake in understanding faith without any ulterior motives, Alllah will shower his mercy and forgive that person inshAllah.

Kind regards
Valani

[fayaz006]

Dear All

From what I have read from all of you (principally following Ismaili beliefs) is that many of you differ from each others on basic issues that pertain to the faith (Imaan) is that true?

If this is so, don't you think a need to have a clear statement from the guide the Imam himself on all the basic questions that cause split opinion. The other questions that are related to the above statements are:

1) What is the purpose of having an Imam (a living guide) if you have to dig the answers of basic issues related to belief by yourself.

2) If Ginans (which are very much in parables) are considered Tafseer (interprtation/exegecies) of Quran and they themselves required a fair amount of interpretation, how does this work.

3) The basic question thus becomes what is Imaan in Ismaili doctrine: as per Quran it is clear to have a faith in Allah, Malaaika, Rusul, Qayama, Life after Death, Jannat and Dozakh and Gaib and to have a firm faith that RasoolAllah was Allah's last Rasool.

I hope you would like to answer these questions as per your own as well as official Ismaili point of views.

Please don't take anything as insulting, it is not, I cannot and do not want to question anyone who is a Qalmago - I believe only Allah will tell us what was right and what was wrong on the day of judgement and if someone has made some honest mistake in understanding faith without any ulterior motives, Alllah will shower his mercy and forgive that person inshAllah.

Kind regards
Valani

Valani there are several issues with your statements. Firstly you are correct that Ismailis will differ on many subjects from one another simply because every individual approaches their faith differently. At its core Islam is not supposed to be as organized of a religion as you think it ought to be. At its core Islam is highly pluralistic therefore there will be plenty of differences in opinion within the Jamat. Knowing this fact you will never have "clear statements" from the Imam on several issues that are not related to the core ethics of our faith.

If such clear statements were made it would suppress the diversity of interpretations of the advanced aspects of our faith. We would become more like other Muslims who would judge who is a good Muslim and who is not.

Secondly Ginans were written down a while back, and for the generation for which those Ginans were written, they would not have contained quite as many parables as they would contain for me or you. For that generation Ginans were the interpretation of the Quran since i doubt Indians of that knew how to read Arabic.

Also your idea of basic principles of faith is incomplete. As per the Quran, in order for you to be a proper Muslim, you must believe in all divinely inspired guidance (this includes budhism and causes our faith to be pluralistic), you must do your best to gain knowledge, you must sacrifice for the betterment of your community, and you must live by the highest standard of personal ethics. The qualifications you mentioned are only the surface of being a Muslim. There are several other qualities a "Muslim" should have but that's not the point of the thread.

[agakhani]

If Ginans (which are very much in parables) are considered Tafseer (interprtation/exegecies) of Quran and they themselves required a fair amount of interpretation, how does this work.

The times during pirs was very crucial, there were heavy pressure of other sects and strict Sunny emperors and Suba specially in Gujarat ,therefore pirs intentionally hide some important things which if this details reach in hand of others then they can not understand it properly, and that is the main reason pirs had composed many ginans hard to understand, parable and allegorically ways. You may heard that Pir Sadardin introduced a special language to hide this kind detail and the name of this language is 'KHOJAKI".

[tret]

Beloved kmaherali,

What you say is certainly clear, but I disagree! And here's why.

By becoming one with God a person is equivalent in spiritual status to the Imam and is qualified to be the Imam. However he cannot function as the Imam because there can only be one Imam according to doctrine.

Please, I would like you to inform yourself to get a better understanding of Imam and Imamate knowledge. What you say is absurd, because now you are saying that anyone can become Imam, which is a complete contradiction to the Shi doctrine of Imamat.

According to the Sh'ii doctrine of Imamate, and Ismaili Constitution, Imam is appointed only by an Imam from his Nass [One of His male descendants]. There are 2 factors. A) by Nass [heredity] and B) By appointment [By the Imam].

Anyone can attain the knowledge of Divine -- as historically it is witnessed -- such as great sufis, like Maulana Rumi, Hafiz Shirazi, and many others [non ismailis]. So, are you suggesting that anyone of those sages can be Imam? Note, they can certainly function as Dai or Hujjat, but not Imam.

According to Tusi, the Imam is the epiphany of the Divine Command, where as Hujjat is the locus of Manifestation of the Universal Intellect, and as such the latter is contingent and the effect of the former [Divine Command], since The Universal Intellect is created through the mediation of the Divine Command.

The Imam is symbolized in our Tariqa to Sun where as the Hujjat is symbolized to Moon. Moon receives his light and reflects in proportion as to how much it receives. In other words Moon doesn't have the light of its own, and as such perpetually receives tay'id from the Sun [Imam], and then acting translucently to pass this knowledge of the Imam to lower ranks. Therefore, the moon's light is directly the cause of Sun's light. We can never claim that Moon shall have its light independently, should the sun be removed from the equation. We would know that the Moon would become empty. Therefore, the Moon [Hujjat - or whoever attains that status] perpetually receives tay'id [divine assistance] from the Sun [The Imam].

We can certainly agree to disagree; but please don't imply that what you describe is the Ismaili doctrine of Imamat and Tawhid [Unless you provide a clear reference]. At least have the curtsy for others POV and deliberately say it's your understanding and I am sure everyone will appreciate it.

[tret]

From what I have read from all of you (principally following Ismaili beliefs) is that many of you differ from each others on basic issues that pertain to the faith (Imaan) is that true?

No. This is not true!
There's the principle [usul] of faith, and every Ismaili agrees and affirms, which is very clear in Ismaili Constitutions.

However, on other matters -- as it is the case in every religion -- every individual according to her/his own capacity and knowledge interprets them differently.

1) What is the purpose of having an Imam (a living guide) if you have to dig the answers of basic issues related to belief by yourself.

It would be very beneficial to first identify yourself, as to which school of thought do you subscribe? It would make the discussion much clearer so one can provide information accordingly. So, please can you identify yourself as Sunni, Shia [Twelver], Ismaili, Atheist, Agnostic, what? Then once that is done, we can definitely talk about why the presence of the Imam is important.

[Admin]

One can become one of the Light of the Imam only after death, that is in BK Farmans.

However, my opinion is that you can spiritually have a glimpse of the Light during Bandagi.

You may even at the spiritual level become one with the 1st Intellect [God the Attributes - An al-Haqq] , the Hujjat but to become one with God the Essence, it can not happen during the physical life.

Again, this is my belief. No compulsion in Faith.

[tret]

One can become one of the Light of the Imam only after death, that is in BK Farmans.

However, my opinion is that you can spiritualy have a glympse of the Light during Bandagi.

You may even at the spiritual level become one with the 1st Intellect [God the Attributes] , the Hujjat but to become one with God the Essence, it can not hapen during the physical life.

Again, this is my belief. No compulsion in Faith.

Appreciate your POV, Admin.

According to my understanding, everything returns to its origination. As you might have read the work of Ismaili theosophers, the Universal Soul -- once actualized -- shall return to Universal Intellect, and the individual soul shall return to Universal Soul, once actualized. So, everything has a returning point, that's the origination.

According to Ismailie thinkers and philosophers, the origination point is the Divine Command [Not God HIM/IT self]. The Divine Command is the first cause whose first effect is the Universal Intellect. Hence, the Divine Command is the point of origination [in relation to Universal Intellect]. The point of origination [and therefore, return] for Universal Soul, would be Universal Intellect, and so on and so forth. So, for individual soul the point of origination [and return] is the Universal Soul. Remember, this temporal world is the world of multiplicity, relativity and duality, but the spiritual world is the world of simplicity, unity. So, everything returns to its origination [relative] and eventually to its origination [the Divine Command].

One can become one of the Light of the Imam only after death

I am not sure about this assertion. According to Tusi/Nasir-e-Khusraw, this physical world is the manifestation of the spiritual world. individual Body is the manifestation individual soul. For everything physical[zahiri] in this physical world, there's a hidden[batin] in the spiritual world. i.e. Divine Command's manifestation is the Imam. Similarly, our individual bodies, have individual soul in the hereafter. I am not too sure, if [and only if one attains that level of unity with the Divine], after death becomes one with the divine. Because according to Tusi, after death, individual souls occupy and imaginary body, where they [individual souls] either enjoy the 'paradise' [for good souls] or are consume with guilt, regret [for wicket souls].

This unity would come forth, at the Resurrection when everything will return to its origin.

Again, this is my understanding. I'd love to be corrected and welcome others opinion, as myself is still a seeker and like learning from you all.

[kmaherali]

Anyone can attain the knowledge of Divine -- as historically it is witnessed -- such as great sufis, like Maulana Rumi, Hafiz Shirazi, and many others [non ismailis]. So, are you suggesting that anyone of those sages can be Imam? Note, they can certainly function as Dai or Hujjat, but not Imam..

Tret,

Please re-read my posts. I have said that there can only be one Imam but there could be many who are spiritually equal to the Imam but who cannot function as Imams.