Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?

[tret]

What are the prophecies of pre-Adam in Hinduism?

You should know better than I do.

That would imply that man has existed for only about 6000 years! People will laugh at you if you said that in today's age.

- So what are you really saying? The Ismaili Dai's and Philosophers according to whom this verse of Qur'an reference the 6 major cycles are wrong?
- Or are you suggesting that this verse means something else?
- Or are you suggesting that Qur'an is wrong?

- I don't understand what are you really trying to imply?

So, my question back to you is what do you think -- according to your understanding -- the following verse of Qur'an means?



“Lo! Your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth
in six days. Then He ascended the Throne…”
- Holy Qur’an 7:54

Are you saying that 124, 000 messngers existed within 4000 years! Don't you think that is ridiculous?

I think more ridiculous would be to mistake messenger with Prophet! Note, I specifically said messenger and not Prophet! I hope you know the difference!


If you plant a tree, it would take much longer before you see its fruits! Man is the fruit of God's creation. The universe maybe very old [probably way older than 6000 years]; but that doesn't necessarily mean that if earth is 6 billions years old, then man must have existed for 6 billion years now. I think to assume that specially in today's age, would be ridiculous.


Note, I never said life didn't exist before Adam. Life probably very well existed before, but in lower ranks of vegetation and animal.
And I don't think the theory of darwin holds any truth either. Because God wouldn't send a Prophet or Imam as apes or elephants . that would be ridiculous.

[Admin]

Varios Muslims believe in various number of Adams having reigned over various number of Cycle which shows that people who believe there was only one biblical Adam and thier own interpretaqtion of the story and that's it, are amongst those who should read more on the subject...

Some reading

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0836.html


http://books.google.ca/books?id=7k0hAwA ... ms&f=false

[tret]

Varios Muslims believe in various number of Adams having reigned over various number of Cycle which shows that people who believe there was only one biblical Adam and thier own interpretaqtion of the story and that's it, are amongst those who should read more on the subject...

Some reading

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0836.html


http://books.google.ca/books?id=7k0hAwA ... ms&f=false

Then what's this concept of Pre-Adam, if there exists multi-Adam? pre-which-adam?


Admin - you are welcome to throw your version of interpretation about this ayat [7:54] that I asked kmaherali brother.


I am not saying I am right. I am saying how can you reconcile the concept of Pre-Adam with this verse from Qur'an. No need to get defensive. We are just talking.

[tret]

I have used the word Manifestation and you have quoted me as using the word Incarnation.

But do you really mean manifestation? or do you still mean incarnation?

Because I have heard the same thing from most others who share similar belief, says it is the 10th incarnation. So I am not sure if you mean the same thing or really manifestation? And I'd love to know your take on incarnation...

[Admin]

God is not flesh incarnate, He is Noor Manifested. Even if some for whatever reason use the word "incarnate" they are still talking of the Noor so there is no reason to try to confuse people over the semantic and throw smoke on a very clear Ismaili concept of Noor Manifested, Noorum Mubeen!

Farmans have explained the electricity in a changing bulb, so is Noor manifesting in different persons as it has Manifested in Noor Mowlana Shah Karim and Mowlana Ali [as 10th "Awatar" and in Mowlana Krishna as 8th "Awatar".) You can debate the meaning of Awatar if you want, everyone will have his own meaning and his own faith.

[kmaherali]

- So what are you really saying? The Ismaili Dai's and Philosophers according to whom this verse of Qur'an reference the 6 major cycles are wrong?
- Or are you suggesting that this verse means something else?
- Or are you suggesting that Qur'an is wrong?

- I don't understand what are you really trying to imply?

So, my question back to you is what do you think -- according to your understanding -- the following verse of Qur'an means?



“Lo! Your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth
in six days. Then He ascended the Throne…”
- Holy Qur’an 7:54

The compilation of the Quran was human and there could have been a number of issues causing the occurence of this verse in the form that it is in. There has been discussion at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

But the important point is that the Imams and the Pirs have made definite statements indicating that man existed much longer than 6000 years. We should pay more attention to them.

And I don't think the theory of darwin holds any truth either. Because God wouldn't send a Prophet or Imam as apes or elephants . that would be ridiculous.

“When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”
- Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, (Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

More on Ismailism and evolution at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... rence+fish

[tret]

God is not flesh incarnate, He is Noor Manifested. Even if some for whatever reason use the word "incarnate" they are still talking of the Noor so there is no reason to try to confuse people over the semantic and throw smoke on a very clear Ismaili concept of Noor Manifested, Noorum Mubeen!

Farmans have explained the electricity in a changing bulb, so is Noor manifesting in different persons as it has Manifested in Noor Mowlana Shah Karim and Mowlana Ali [as 10th "Awatar" and in Mowlana Krishna as 8th "Awatar".) You can debate the meaning of Awatar if you want, everyone will have his own meaning and his own faith.

Admin - I understand your position on this topic. However I have come across many -- including some on this forum -- who believe flesh incarnate.

Maybe you could she'd some light by explaining these concepts?

Incarnation according to my understanding is rebirth of soul in physical body. And that's what most participant say that Ali is the 10th incarnation.


Is this correct explanation of 10 avatar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashavatara

[tret]

The compilation of the Quran was human and there could have been a number of issues causing the occurence of this verse in the form that it is in.

So basically you are saying that this verse from Qur'an is wrong.

But, did you also know that all Abrahemic faiths, i.e. Jews/Christians also attests to this verse [Not exact verse, but this concept of creation in six days]. This is why Jews don't work on Saturday, because they are convinced [rightly or wrongly or otherwise] that God rested in 7th day. I think some reading will be helpful here.

I provided a link to an article few reply back, and I am not sure if anyone bothered to read it. Please kmaherali, you are intelligent person; read the following article which is published by IIS [So it is from a credible Ismaili resource] and tell me if you still refute it. The article is -- by the way -- based on Nasir-e-Khusraw's. I am sure you have heard of Nasir-e-Khusraw who's Qasidas are admired by all Ismailies.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Nas ... sach_2.pdf

“When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”
- Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, (Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

Please explain where does it say about Pre-Adam prophecies?


So, why God says that human was created in HIS image? Do you believe that when early human [or human ancestors like chimps according to darwin's theory] was created, was that created in God's image as chimps [or fish or some other animal]?

[kmaherali]

So basically you are saying that this verse from Qur'an is wrong.]

OK I admit I made an error. There is a verse from the ginan Pahele dhandhukar saahebe rachaayaa which states:

Eji Chha din maanhe saaheb rachnaa rachaai,
te rachanaa ki kudrat saachi - ebi 14

The Lord created the creation in six days, the mysteries/power of creation is real.

The six days may be interpreted through consideration of the ginan: Khat Nirinjan.

Khat Nirinjan means the six paths leading to the Nirinjan (the Indescribable and the Unseen - God). The six paths are:

Karma Yoga - the path of good actions
Jnana Yoga - the path of discrimination
Bhakti Yoga - the path of prayer and devotion
Mantra Yoga - the path of God union by chanting and incantations of sounds
Laya Yoga - the path that teaches how to dissolve the ego in the infinite
Hatha Yoga - the path of bodily discipline

In the Ginan it is stated:

Gurnar ni tame karjo seva
E khat nirinjan utam meva....258

Serve the Gurnar (Imam) which is the quintessence of the six paths leading to God and is the best reward.(the six paths are encompassed in service to the Imam)

Shahna darshan thi jave pap
Te alakh nirinjan apo he ap...260

By Imam's didar sins get washed away and one becomes clean and pure and attains the Nirinjan - the Idescribable and the Unseen.

Having attained God he sits on the throne (indicated in the verse of the Qur'an)

http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Nas ... sach_2.pdf

Thanks!

Please explain where does it say about Pre-Adam prophecies?

I will quote a Farman of MSMS:

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner. "
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

The lineal descent implies that there has always been Allah's manifestation since creation. So in that sense Allah manifested in the highest form of creation and that could have taken the form of a fish, amphibia, animals etc.
The Man was created He manifested himself in the the form of Man.

So, why God says that human was created in HIS image? Do you believe that when early human [or human ancestors like chimps according to darwin's theory] was created, was that created in God's image as chimps [or fish or some other animal]?

Human was created in the image of God because he is endowed with the special capacity to know and become God.

[Admin]

I think that we tend to forget sometimes that in the list of Imams we have in Ismailism, we do have names of "Awatars - manifestations" which dated before the 10 Avatars..... And those names preceeding the 10 avatars names were recited up to recently when the impossibly long long "asal" Dua in multiple languages (component in various languages Arabic, Farsi, Sindhi, Gujrati etc)) was shortened to keep only the Arabic component with some modification and additions.

So maybe instead of talking of "pre-Adam", we should also start a thread on "pre-Das-Avatar"

[Admin]

quote: “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”
- Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, (Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

In fact both the Bible and the Quran have verses confirming that the Throne of God was on the water. Why water? Why not earth?


And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
King James Bible Genesis 1:2

And the Quran Sura 11, Verse 7 talks about His Throne upon the Water: "And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is best in deed."

[a_27826]

The lineal descent implies that there has always been Allah's manifestation since creation. So in that sense Allah manifested in the highest form of creation and that could have taken the form of a fish, amphibia, animals etc.
The Man was created He manifested himself in the the form of Man.

are you saying that in these 10 incarnations, humans did not exist in all of them?

Lets say fish dominated the during the first era, so do you mean to say Imam of that time was in form of fish?

if that is correct, then what about the other forms of life during the era of fish?

[kmaherali]

are you saying that in these 10 incarnations, humans did not exist in all of them?

Lets say fish dominated the during the first era, so do you mean to say Imam of that time was in form of fish?

if that is correct, then what about the other forms of life during the era of fish?

God being God can assume any form to accomplish his purpose and task. There are 2 kinds of non-human Avatars:

- The first type are those resulting from the evolution of life from the lowest form (water) to the highest form (Man). God assumed various forms according to the stage of evolution. If fish was the highest evolutionary stage, then God assumed the form of the fish as stated by MSMS.

- The second type is that when God assumed non-human forms even when humans existed. Below are verses from Anant Akhado (Ashaji) which explain that kind of behaviour of God.

Aashaajee Machh rupe daannav maaryaa
teno ant jaanno jee
payaar maanhe ramee-jamee aavyaa
daannav maaryaa tyaan...................Haree anant..404

Oh Lord, In the form of half fish and half human, the Lord slayed
the demon, and that was his(the demon's) end.
The Lord came into the undersurface mysteriously
and slayed the demon there and there only
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Sankhaa-sur to saaher pettho
toe na melyo tunhee jee
maaree daannav ved-j vaaryaa
rakheesar gher vadhaayun................Haree anant..405

Oh Lord, Sankha-sur was in the depths of the ocean, even then you did not abandon his pursuit. Having slayed the demon the Lord recovered the vedas entirely and the homes of the devotees became happy and joyous
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Bhagat Rukh-mugat taaryaa
evaa taaraa kaam jee
bhagat taaryaa aap ugaarya
maaryo te Sankha-sur....................Haree anant..406

Oh Lord You gave salvation to Bhagat(the pious) Rukh-mugat
such are your (exalted) deeds. You gave salvation to the pious momins and saved them and you slayed the demon Sankha-sur..
Haree You are eternal...

Similarly He assumed other non-human forms which are expalined from verses 407 to 423 at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html

One may ask, how did the Lord provide guidance to humans when he was in non-human forms? The answer is that he assumed non-human forms in the capacity of being the Imam, in the capacity of the Pir or other elevated souls he provided guidance. Hence the Imam during the time of Pahelaaj assumed the form of Nar-sihn (half human, half lion). Pahelaaj then became the saviour of five crore souls.

[tret]

God being God can assume any form to accomplish his purpose and task..

This fascinating on many level. Kmaherali, I'd just request you to Google the literal definition of "task".

Once you fully understand the definition of "task", then please kindly let us know what is/are God's tasks? Who assigns these tasks to God? Is there another God? Apparently these are all news to me (and I am sure to most others)..


I don't even want to go into details about other points of non human imams, which is absolutely contradictory to Islam in general and ismaili doctrine in particular.

[Admin]

Isn't Light itself a "non-human" form? Did not God appear to Prophet Moosa, according to the Bible in non-human form of a burning bush (Exodus 3:1–22) but still talking with a human voice?

[a_27826]

God being God can assume any form to accomplish his purpose and task.

thanx.

one more thing, if Imam Ali and the his descendants are the 10th Manifestation of God, then who where the first and the last Imams of the 9th Manifestation of God?

[tret]

Isn't Light itself a "non-human" form? Did not God appear to Prophet Moosa, according to the Bible in non-human form of a burning bush (Exodus 3:1–22) but still talking with a human voice?

First of all this incident of prophet Moses deserves a much deeper discussion than just that.

Even then, it would be rather absurd to assume, since God appears as light (non-human) to Moses, therefore, God must appear as fish and apes or half lion. Don't you think this sounds rather silly and childish?

[Admin]

Don't you think this sounds rather silly and childish?

Everything would appear foolish and childish to people who do not belief in someone's faith. Especially when related to rites, rituals, ceremonies, traditions or past history and future propheties.

For example a Christian praying to the statue of Jesus on the cross would appear childish to an uneducated Muslim and a Muslim circumambulating around some black stone would appear foolish to an uneducated Jew and a Jew lamenting against some wall would appear foolish to an uneducated Christian.

The problem is not people's faith, it is lack of education. Fortunately our present Imam is fighting hard for educating people through his actions on diversity and pluralism so that the rigidity and attitudes created by un-education disappear in favour of a better understanding of the "other".

Aga Ali Shah made a Farman where he said God accept even the faith [Shradha) of those who believe in statues.

So it is better to try to get educated on our concept of Das Avatar instead of trying to make a mockery out of it.

[tret]

Everything would appear foolish and childish to people who do not belief in someone's faith. Especially when related to rites, rituals, ceremonies, traditions or past history and future propheties.

For example a Christian praying to the statue of Jesus on the cross would appear childish to an uneducated Muslim and a Muslim circumambulating around some black stone would appear foolish to an uneducated Jew and a Jew lamenting against some wall would appear foolish to an uneducated Christian.

The problem is not people's faith, it is lack of education. Fortunately our present Imam is fighting hard for educating people through his actions on diversity and pluralism so that the rigidity and attitudes created by un-education disappear in favour of a better understanding of the "other".

silly and childish, I was referring to your analogy [or analysis] or comparison of incident of Moses to the ideology of 'God appearing in animal form'. You can not conclude, to say since God appeared as light to Moses, Therefore, God must appear as fish or other animals is what I was pointing out!

Understanding about others faith is certainly beneficial, but that shouldn't affect your belief system. If by studying Christianity, you eventually become a christian and leave your path of Ismailism, then is it worth it?

So it is better to try to get educated on our concept of Das Avatar instead of trying to make a mockery out of it.

Why don't you say the same thing about Qur'an? Why don't you start studying and understanding Qur'an?

[Admin]

Tret, As I said this is about education and it does not look like you have understood my post. This is not about me. Try to contain your argument to theology as I have no time for personal debates. if you want to debate about Quran, go to the appropriate thread. Please read the rules of postings. Thanks.

[tret]

OK I admit I made an error. There is a verse from the ginan Pahele dhandhukar saahebe rachaayaa which states:

A wise man apologies when in error. I appreciate this honesty.

Eji Chha din maanhe saaheb rachnaa rachaai,
te rachanaa ki kudrat saachi - ebi 14

The Lord created the creation in six days, the mysteries/power of creation is real.

The six days may be interpreted through consideration of the ginan: Khat Nirinjan.

Khat Nirinjan means the six paths leading to the Nirinjan (the Indescribable and the Unseen - God). The six paths are:

Karma Yoga - the path of good actions
Jnana Yoga - the path of discrimination
Bhakti Yoga - the path of prayer and devotion
Mantra Yoga - the path of God union by chanting and incantations of sounds
Laya Yoga - the path that teaches how to dissolve the ego in the infinite
Hatha Yoga - the path of bodily discipline

Please note, that anyone [that is to say any mustajeb] can do the tah'wil according to her/his capacity and knowledge; which is absolutly okay, in which case it is considered purely her/his understanding. The supreme tah'wil is performed by the Imam of the Time and that's the final and 100% correct tah'wil.

Now, while I appreciate your assist to try and do the tah'wil of one verse of a ginan by another verse of ginan. It's certainly an attempt and it would be considered your understanding, and I appreciate this.

But, I'd ask you how 'tariqa' [or path, direction] would be considered 'creation' or the world? The six path that you mentioned are mentioned in many works of sufis and also Ismaili theosophers. Farid-uddin Att'ar in his Mantiq-ul-Tyre describes these 'paths' as 'valley' [mind you he (Att'ar) mentioned 7 valleys, but the concept is the same].

And one might question, why 6? why not 8 or 9 or 10? what's the significance of 6? Nasir-i-Khusraw explains it beautifully in his Knowledge and Liberation [Gushaesh-wa-Rehayesh] that philosophy behind the number 6 [7th would be the subath or Qaim] and the 7 correspond to the 7 days of the week.

6 would be the directions of human body. i.e. front, back, up, down, right, left correspond to each Natiq. The Subath [Or Qaim] would be directionless.

These concept of represented as symbolism in the new Museum of Toronto in the building, BTW.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Nas ... sach_2.pdf

Thanks!

Would you care to give a remark and your POV about this article?

[kmaherali]

This fascinating on many level. Kmaherali, I'd just request you to Google the literal definition of "task".

Once you fully understand the definition of "task", then please kindly let us know what is/are God's tasks? Who assigns these tasks to God? Is there another God? Apparently these are all news to me (and I am sure to most others)..

Definition of a task:
A piece of work assigned or done as part of one's duties. 2. A difficult or tedious undertaking. 3. A function to be performed; an objective
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/task

The function and duties of the Imam is to assist and protect his murids and the Imam works in that capacity. The Imams also assumed non-human forms to undertake the work as part of their duties.

In his various interviews MHI has defined his role and function. For example:

LBC: Your Highness, when we say "Imam", usually we imagine a bearded man with a turban. Is it that the Imam, amongst Ismailis, has a civilian look?

AK: No, I think that we wish to have a role that is balanced. I think that in Islam the notion of Imam is also a notion of a civil responsibility for those under his responsibility. And in the case of the Ismailis, I have a moral, and as far as I can exercise it in an efficient manner, a material responsibility, to assure the quality of life of the members of the Ismaili community. So, if you will, it is not only on religious grounds that I have to intervene, but also on ethical grounds. How does the ethic of Faith translate into daily life? Voilà!

In another speech MHI defines his role as:

"On the contrary, history and the correct interpretation of the Imamat require that the Imam, while caring first of all for the spiritual well-being of his people, should also be continuously concerned with their safety and their material progress. It is about my work in this latter field that I address you today."

So there is no need of another God to assign the tasks!

[kmaherali]

one more thing, if Imam Ali and the his descendants are the 10th Manifestation of God, then who where the first and the last Imams of the 9th Manifestation of God?

Refer to the Vishanapuri at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 36&start=0

First Imam - Shish
Last Imam - Abu Talib

[kmaherali]

ut, I'd ask you how 'tariqa' [or path, direction] would be considered 'creation' or the world? The six path that you mentioned are mentioned in many works of sufis and also Ismaili theosophers. Farid-uddin Att'ar in his Mantiq-ul-Tyre describes these 'paths' as 'valley' [mind you he (Att'ar) mentioned 7 valleys, but the concept is the same].

Creation is there for the purpose of worship and elevation of the soul:

"So the Source of Power created seven progressively more subtle planes of existence and consciousness, revealing on each plane a new level of love and knowledge for the souls who will return along this path of mystical ascension into the Source of Peace." (41:9-12)

A path is a means of acheving the purpose. So there can be 6 paths to attain the goal.

Would you care to give a remark and your POV about this article?

I will give you my thoughts once I have read the whole article.

[tret]

Definition of a task:
A piece of work assigned or done as part of one's duties. 2. A difficult or tedious undertaking. 3. A function to be performed; an objective
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/task

So, now the definition of task is clear, we can proceed.


First off, this is what you had said, and I quote. [Note, you used the word God, not Imam] - Not sure if to you they[God and Imam] equate the same? This is by itself is a whole different topic; let's not discuss here.

God being God can assume any form to accomplish his purpose and task..

So, God doesn't have duties or task. Imam has a mandate, on the other hand, which you provided reference to MHI's speech.

So there is no need of another God to assign the tasks!

You kind of lost me here.

- You equated God to Imam.
- You identified Imam's tasks.
- You say Imam [Or God according to you] has tasks
- Now you say there's no need to assign task?

I think we should go back to the definition of task.

A task is a mandate assigned to someone [by someone].

So what are you really saying?

[tret]

Creation is there for the purpose of worship and elevation of the soul:

I don't think the question is the purpose of the creation.

The question is the creation. and how?

[kmaherali]

First off, this is what you had said, and I quote. [Note, you used the word God, not Imam] - Not sure if to you they[God and Imam] equate the same? This is by itself is a whole different topic; let's not discuss here.

Yes I am equating Imam to God. There are Farmans of MSMS and the ginans to that effect.

So, God doesn't have duties or task. Imam has a mandate, on the other hand, which you provided reference to MHI's speech.

Even if the Imam is not God, God still has tasks. MSMS in his Memoirs says:
"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."

Then we the Ayat which states:
"His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not." (2:555)

I hope you will realize from the two quotes above that Allah has duties and he works to fulfil them. That is he performs His tasks!!

So there is no need of another God to assign the tasks!

- Now you say there's no need to assign task?

Read carefully, is that what I really said?

Also note that according to the definition I provided, a task need NOT be assigned by anyone to be called a task.

[kmaherali]

I don't think the question is the purpose of the creation.

The question is the creation. and how?

Creation has no meaning if there is no purpose. The paths leading towards the realization of God provide the purpose. Hence the paths complete creation. Without the paths there is no creation or creation is incomplete.

[tret]

Yes I am equating Imam to God. There are Farmans of MSMS and the ginans to that effect.

Would you please refer the Farmaan?
Can you please explain your understanding [After reading the Farmaan - Maybe good idea would be to send me a private message, if posting in public forum is not advisable]?


Okay, I grant you that Imam has duties [or tasks], if we consider your POV. So, let's get back to 2 main role[or duties] of the Imam which you pointed out and MHI has mentioned it several times that Imam's role is to Interpret the faith[for murids] and To improve the quality of lives [of Jama'at and humankind in general].

I think you would agree with me on this one!

So, based on the above, kindly let us know; how half-human, fish, or other animals would perform these two main roles or duties?

Creation has no meaning if there is no purpose. The paths leading towards the realization of God provide the purpose. Hence the paths complete creation. Without the paths there is no creation or creation is incomplete.

Dear kmaherali -
I get what you are saying. But the question is really not that, regarding the verse of Qur'an I referenced [7:54].
What you are saying is these paths lead individual souls to perfection, which is the purpose of creation, alright; however, that doesn't explain the creation of the cosmos and spiritual realm! Do you get it?

[kmaherali]

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