Diffeernece between MUL & MIL in holy du'a?

[avrozmaredia]

In Holy Du'a following has same meaning but have different words?

Part 2 & 5 SHAH KARIMUL-HUSAYNI (notice MUL)

Part 1, 3, 4 & 6 SHAH KARIMIL-HUSAYNI. (notice MIL)

What is the difference between these two words?


[/u]

[agakhani]

What is the difference between these two words?

In my opinion nothing, seems printing mistakes or it must be same meaning of these two different words, but you raise solid question here Avroz, I was thinking to post Prophet Muhammad's differently spelled names here for a long time, now seems that time has come, you encourage me to putting these names here!
According many scholars the actual and real name of Prophet Mohammad in 'ARABIC" is 'MUHAMMAD" but look below and you will deffinately surprized after you find these many differently spelled name of only one person Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) Does this wrongly spelled names makes any change in prophet Mohammed (PBUH) himself? does these wrongly spelled names make any differences in prophet-hood? OF COURSE NOT!

Urdu & Arabic: مُحَمَّد

1, Muhammad

2, Muhammed

3, Muhamad

4, Muhamed

5, Mohammed

6, Mohammad

7, Mohamed

8, Mohamad

9, Mahamed

10, Mahamid

Now look below how prohet's names are written in different languages?:-

1, Mehmet (Turkish)

2, Muhammet (Turkish Albanian)

3, Muhamet (Turkish Albanian)

4, Mahometus (Italian)

5, Maometto (Italinan)

6, Μωάμεθ (Greek)

7, Moameth (Greek)

8, Mahoma (Catalan and in Spanish)

9, Mamede (Galician)

10, Мухаммад (Russian)

11, Mukhammad (Russian)

12, Магомед (Russia)

13, Magomed (Russia)

14, Maxamed (Somalia)

15, Mamadou (Senegal and in other West African nations).

16, Махамбет (Kazakh)

17, Makhambet (Kazakh)

18, 穆罕默德 (Chinese)

19, Mùhǎnmòdé (Chinese)

20 ,મુહંમદ (Gujarati )

And lastly I want to share one "special" name you will also find in our ginanic literature 'MAMAD MAWAJI" don't you believe it? ask brother admin!!!

So, I don't think "Mul" or " Mil" does make big difference!! but to make sure, I asked this question to my Arabic friend, let wait what he has to say? meanwhile if any Arabic scholar in this forum know the difference between these two words then please put it here.

[avrozmaredia]

In my opinion nothing, seems printing mistakes

Sorry Bhai, but your statement didn't satisfy me because i found this two words in our Du'a book (printed by Tariqah board). Can someone plz clarify me more.

[agakhani]

i found this two words in our Du'a book (printed by Tariqah board)

If my explanation doesn't satisfies you then that is fine with me, this case you need to ask Tariqah Board and let us know what they say about these two words? good luck in advance but I don't think Tariqua board will satisfy you either, rather then asking TB you can ask any senior missionaries or any Arabic Scholars in San Antonio ( I already asked this question to my Arabic friend, let wait what he say I will post it here soon) but don't rely on TB! why? answer is simple! for this I have to give you one example:-
I have two Du'a books, one is published by Ismailia Tariqua Board for India and one is published by Ismailia Tariqua Board for Canada, these two books are our current Du'a books and also published by MHI's appointed Ismaili Tariqua Boards but be honest with you, I find many differences in these two Du'a books!!! now can you tell me which one is right and which one is not? which one I should accept and which one I shouldn't???!!!
FYI:- if tariqua board would have taken care about exact wording in our literature then there would not have any changes in ginans, misprinting in du'as, ginans and other literature and they would not have been permitted to any one to make changes in ginan's original texts.

[avrozmaredia]

have two Du'a books, one is published by Ismailia Tariqua Board for India and one is published by Ismailia Tariqua Board for Canada, these two books are our current Du'a books and also published by MHI's appointed Ismaili Tariqua Boards but be honest with you, I find many differences in these two Du'a books!!! now can you tell me which one is right and which one is not? which one I should accept and which one I shouldn't???!!!

Agakhani Bhai,
I know that different publication has Du'a variation. My question raised about these two words; words can be found common in any Du'a book.
I take Du'a classes held in SA JK. Hence, i want to be prepare for all question asked by jamati students.
Please post if you come out with any new explanation.

Thanks Agakhani Bhai for that Ginan clarification. It helped me alot.

[prince_visram]

This might help in your understanding. It was published in the Preface of the "Holy Du'a English and Gujarati Test with Translation" by The Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah and Religious Education Board for Ontario.

Preface

In the Arabic language, a word is pronounced in different ways, depending on the construction of the sentence. For example, "MUHAMMAD" can be pronounced as "MUHAMMADUN", "MUHAMMADAN" or "MUHAMMADIN", depending on whether it is used in the subjective, objective or prepositional (or possessive) case respectively. It should be partially noted that, because of the preposition "BI" (In) in "BIHAQ-QI" before the names of the Imams, the pronunciations of most of the holy names is changed. For example, ABU DHAR 'ALY becomes ABI DHAR ALY, DHUL-FIQAR becomes DHIL-FIQAR, and so on. Hence the correct meaning of a word depends totally on its correct pronunciation. This transliteration is prepared for the purpose of reciting the HOLY DU'A with the correct pronunciation and should be followed.

It then continues with a few more details on the specific key for transliteration used in the text of the Du'a.

It is an older Du'a book and not the one sold in literature counters in Ontario today, but it is a lot easier to learn pronunciation from, using Roman Characters for enhancing pronunciation.

The specific ones you have mentioned of our beloved Imam's name are probably altered for the same reasoning (which I have indicated and bolded in the quoted text for easy reference).

Hopes this helps!

[agakhani]

Code: Select all

So, I don't think "Mul" or " Mil" does make big difference!! but to make sure, I asked this question to my Arabic friend, let wait what he has to say?

As I wrote above, I received the answer from a Mowlana Saheb he is a scholar in Arabic language and had written many books but his answer is not satisfactory either any way below is his answer:-

W.SALAM,
SORREY AAPNO ANSWER AAPWAMA LATE THAYO INTERNET GARBAD
NA KARANE.
"MUL" KE "MIL" NO KOI MEANING NATHI THATO. BHEGU KARINE PADHO TO
KADI MUL ANE KADI MIL PADHAY.
EXAMPLE "KARIMUL HUSSAIN" AND "KARIMIL HUSSAINN", HAVE KYARE KARIMUL ANE KYARE 'KARIMIL' PADHAY? TENA RULLS CHHE.
GENERALLY AAPNE JE NAAM RAKHIYE CHHIYE TEMA KARIMUL HUSSAIN PADHAY CHHE.
ARABIC GRAMMAR PRAMARE JYARE KARIMUL HUSSAIN NI PEHLA "HARFE JAR" AAWE TYARE ATHWA KARIM MUJAF ILAIH HOY TYRA KARIMIL HASAN PADHAY.
INSHAALLAH MARI WAAT THODI GHANI EXPLAIN THAI HASHE.NA SAMAJ PADE TO FARI MAIL KARSHO.
THANK U DUAGIR
MOWLANA.HUSAIN AHMED

Explanation:-
1,I asked him in English but some how he answered me in Gujarati language!!
2,It still not clear but what Mowlana try to say according Arabic grammar is:-
When if the word "Jar" (a letter in Arabic and Urdu) comes before any name then 'MUL' comes (for example Karimul Hussain but when word Mujaf Ilaih!! ( I never heard about this letter in Arabic or in Urdu alphabets) comes before any name then "MIL" comes.
Be honest with you, his explanation is not satisfactory either.

[a_27826]

What is the difference between these two words?

In my opinion nothing, seems printing mistakes or it must be same meaning of these two different words

I dont think Dua pronunciations are fixed and it depends on the reciter.

In a sentence, two words has to be joined together by a vowel.

for example, in part 5,

you can recite it continuously: Ya hadhiru, ya maujudu (O present, O living)
or you can recite it by pausing: Ya hadhir. Ya maujud (O present. O living)

so Karim by itself remains Karim, but in a sentence, Karim changes to Karimul, Karimal or Karimil (unless it is the last word in the sentence).

so which vowel to use? that will depend on whether the word is used as subjective, objective or possessive.

Is it important for correct pronunciations?

i think so because wrong pronunciations will bring a gibberish, broken, wrong, incomprehensible or opposite message to an arabic speaking person.

for example in part 5,

La takhunul laha war rasula means "do not betray Allah and the Messanger".

while La takhunul laha war rasulu may mean "do not betray Allah and the Messanger is the betrayer".

In order to understand, one has to know arabic grammar (rafa' wa dham, nasab wa fatah and jarr wa kasr)

But then, since we are batini, what we mean is more important than what we say to Allah.

[Admin]

Hazar Imam has given a lot of importance to the proper knowledge of the meaning of the Dua but to my knowledge there is no Farman about the pronounciation of the Dua. That by itself speaks tons!

[tret]

Hazar Imam has given a lot of importance to the proper knowledge of the meaning of the Dua but to my knowledge there is no Farman about the pronounciation of the Dua. That by itself speaks tons!

Admin - I agree with a_27826. I do realize that jamat must understand the meaning of the Du'a, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we pronounce however we wish. If recitation of Du'a didn't matter, then do you suggest that everyone should recite in their language of preference?


I think effort is well spent in trying and learning the proper way of reciting the holly Du'a. Besides that it is also of very importance to understand the meaning of it. I guess they both go hand in hand.

[Admin]

We have to be practical in life, "practicable" as Sir Eboo used to say

We can't expect an Ismaili of Indian origin or African origin to have the same pronounciation as an Arab unless we genetically modify them

[tret]

We have to be practical in life, "practicable" as Sir Eboo used to say

We can't expect an Ismaili of Indian origin or African origin to have the same pronounciation as an Arab unless we genetically modify them

that's not necessarily true!

I attended Eid Namaz in TO last week, and one of our Ismaili brother recited the Eid Namaz beautifully with accurate recitation and pronunciation. I was amazed and very content hearing that. They say, if there's a will, there's a way. No genetic modification needed.

[agakhani]

I, think proper pronunciation is necessary whether it is for a Dua, quranic tilawat or namaz, but unfortunately we are pronounce it correctly !!
Forget about us but I have noticed that even Arabic speaking biradars, who knows Arabic very well also pronounce it differently!

[a_student]

The difference between Shah Karimu-l Hussaini & Shah Karimi-l Hussaini in our Du'a is not arbitrary and we should give our Tariqah Board more credit then simply assuming it is a typographical error of whimsy.

Even a very basic understanding of Arabic provides an understanding that every noun can play three different roles in a sentence: marfu, mansoob and majroor (i.e. Subject, preposition and object) ; corresponding to the suffix endings -un, -an and -in respectively.

Out of the six times that our Imam's name is mentioned in our Holy Du'a, his name is the object of the sentence 4 times (Parts 1,3,4& 6) and as the subject twice (2 &5). This difference corresponds to the different endings.

In fact, proper grammer would require our Imam's name to be pronounce Shah Karimin-al Hussaini and Shah Karimun-al Hussaini respectively because of the tanwin operating in the middle of the phrase which requires an "n" sound to be enunciated. Proper Arabic speakers would therefore pronounce the tanwin while Persian based speakers often disregard it's necessity.

I hope my response has been of some assistance.