Imam and Imamat
I thought you would be bright enough to get what I was trying to say, by not saying it.Admin wrote:Why the hell would an Ismaili ask what does it take to be member of a Mijlas, Ismailis have access to that information... or why would a follower of the Imam even suggest that the Mijlases are part of a discriminatory process rather than an initiation process?
The point I was trying to make was more about "why certain Farameen would be only available to the so called 'memebers' and not the rt of Jama'at?" than the requirement of being a member to any majalis...
I'd also suggest you to do some research on the history of the Majalis. It could be of help too. By no means I don't want you to get the wrong impression, as you already did.
The point I am making, is that Farameen should be available to all Jama'at. It would be up to Jama'at to reflect and contemplate on the Farameen and understand.
Other point [or rather question] I want to make is 'Is it Maula's Amr to make those certain Farameen exclusively to 'members'? or is it decided by ITREB or leaders? And what's really the reasoning behind it?
You mentioned it takes 'dedication' and 'voice from heart' and 'some other stuff'. I guess the two farmers are very important than 'some other stuff'. Then who can judge -- for example -- if I have 'dedication' and 'a voice in my heart'?
Do you see where I am going with this?
I would be honored to be "fayaz006". This individual is smart, intelligent, with very deep understanding of our tariqa and a very good common sense. I can't even compare myself with "fayaz006" even a bit, but if you consider myself to be "Fayaz", then I am very honored and flattered.fayaz006 wrote:Agakhani on your first point i dont know whether the admin shares your views. If the admin does then ill be more then happy to oblige and send private messages on the above matter.agakhani wrote:I would just like to understand the Sunni position on this issue. No copy and paste this time please, would just like your own opinion on the matter
This is Shia forum we do not want to know what Sunny thinks? if you have interest to know then ask ZZNoor she can send private message for your query.
BTW:- I, do not see any different between you and Tret if you are not the same person! the reason of my this saying is I am seeing lots of similarity in writing, in thinking, and comments! between you and Tret the thing which make me irate is the question you asked ZZNoor above about Sunny opinion which was asked by Tret many time before! and to ZZNoor.
On your second point you maybe correct, i and Tret maybe the same .................... or are we????? Keep pondering agakhani, who knows, you may be up to something
I have personally heard Imam saying that some particular farmans are for some Particular Jamats or groups or Mijlases. It is not the ITREB which decided for those.
However for general Farmans which are to be made available unedited to the Jamat, you are right to say that some bureaucrats may be deciding to deprive the Jamat of those.
As a matter of fact they do.
And they even edit Farmans which the Imam said in the past editing and changing in Farmans has hurt the Dai'is.
However for general Farmans which are to be made available unedited to the Jamat, you are right to say that some bureaucrats may be deciding to deprive the Jamat of those.
As a matter of fact they do.
And they even edit Farmans which the Imam said in the past editing and changing in Farmans has hurt the Dai'is.
Ta'yid = Is the instantaneous inspiration by the Imam [or from the spiritual realm].
Ta'lim = Gradual acquisition of knowledge by instructions from upper ranks [Mu'alem, Dai].
The Hujjats receive ta'yid from the Imam. Imams receive ta'yid from the spiritual realm, from the Universal Intellect. Transparency and Translucency has symbolic significance where the Imam receives ta'yid from the upper celestial realm, from the Universal Intellect, and transmits it, by using ta'yid to lower rank of Hujjat. The lower ranks [lower than Hujjat] receive this knowledge through ta'lim [instructions].
Ta'lim = Gradual acquisition of knowledge by instructions from upper ranks [Mu'alem, Dai].
The Hujjats receive ta'yid from the Imam. Imams receive ta'yid from the spiritual realm, from the Universal Intellect. Transparency and Translucency has symbolic significance where the Imam receives ta'yid from the upper celestial realm, from the Universal Intellect, and transmits it, by using ta'yid to lower rank of Hujjat. The lower ranks [lower than Hujjat] receive this knowledge through ta'lim [instructions].
Ya Ali Madad.
This is paragraph from History of 1000 years old of observation made by a revered entity then.It is a quality search marginally related to isolated context on levels of preaching then of the question asked.
My question is still unanswered.I am awaiting the answer where presence of living mind is needed and not copy paste of the past.
This is paragraph from History of 1000 years old of observation made by a revered entity then.It is a quality search marginally related to isolated context on levels of preaching then of the question asked.
My question is still unanswered.I am awaiting the answer where presence of living mind is needed and not copy paste of the past.
Absolutely, the essence never change. And Imam said that our faith is based on thousands of years of history.
But here is an anecdote which the number reminded me: I remember one Farman made in Vancouver where Imam mentioned "14 years" and somewhere someone thought it was a slip of tongue and changed what the Imam said into "14 hundred years... that of course is not appropriate. In the same way, at three occasion (one in French) in the 1966's Imam said "1,900 years" and someone "official" changed that to "1,400 years" in all three Farmans
Recently in his speech at the Aga Khan Museum, Imam said "late 1,900" but the transcript later released on the "official" web sites said "1,990"
By the way Mowlana Shah Karim mentioned in a Farman in 1964 in Karachi that he wanted a Museum.
Just to bring back the records on the strait path
But here is an anecdote which the number reminded me: I remember one Farman made in Vancouver where Imam mentioned "14 years" and somewhere someone thought it was a slip of tongue and changed what the Imam said into "14 hundred years... that of course is not appropriate. In the same way, at three occasion (one in French) in the 1966's Imam said "1,900 years" and someone "official" changed that to "1,400 years" in all three Farmans
Recently in his speech at the Aga Khan Museum, Imam said "late 1,900" but the transcript later released on the "official" web sites said "1,990"
By the way Mowlana Shah Karim mentioned in a Farman in 1964 in Karachi that he wanted a Museum.
Just to bring back the records on the strait path
Last edited by Admin on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 questionsAdmin wrote:Absolutely, the essence never change. And Imam said that our faith is based on thousands of years of history.
But here is an anecdote which the number reminded me: I remember one Farman made in Vancouver where Imam mentioned "14 years" and somewhere someone thought it was a slip of tongue and changed what the Imam said into "14 hundred years... that of course is not appropriate. In the same way, at three occasion (one in French) in the 1966's Imam said "1,900 years" and someone "official" changed that to "1,400 years" in all three Farmans
Recently in his speech at the Aga Khan Museum, Imam said "late 1,900" but the transcript later released on the "official" web sites said "1,990"
By the way Mowlana Shah Karim mentioned in a Farman in 1964 in Karachi that he wanted a Museum.
Just to bring back the records on the strait path
a) what's the relevance to the topic? Kindly relate and explain.
b) what is the point you are trying to make?
As I mention it was just something I remembered because the 1400 years and 14 years both were mentioned and there is no relevance beside the fact that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and essence has remained the same even though people have tried to change what Imam says and I just wanted to share some info without knowing that it will lead to more discussions....
The thread is "Imam" and I guess talking about the Imam in this thread is relevant?
Thanks for reminding me for the slip of tongue
The thread is "Imam" and I guess talking about the Imam in this thread is relevant?
Thanks for reminding me for the slip of tongue
It's all good admin.Admin wrote:As I mention it was just something I remembered because the 1400 years and 14 years both were mentioned and there is no relevance beside the fact that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and essence has remained the same even though people have tried to change what Imam says and I just wanted to share some info without knowing that it will lead to more discussions....
The thread is "Imam" and I guess talking about the Imam in this thread is relevant?
Thanks for reminding me for the slip of tongue
Ya Ali Madad.
My question to admin got marginally side tracked.On reply to that I mention the copy paste being 1000 years old on preaching level n ranks then.
The word 1000 year was again isolated by admin in co relating to period,era etc.
With this a total post not related to main question is going around.
This happens in 90% of topics.The moment we lower the status Of ALI, A shariati seizes the opportunity to offload 5 candles.
I have asked a one line question which can be answered in one-three lines.
Still awaiting answer from Admin.
My question to admin got marginally side tracked.On reply to that I mention the copy paste being 1000 years old on preaching level n ranks then.
The word 1000 year was again isolated by admin in co relating to period,era etc.
With this a total post not related to main question is going around.
This happens in 90% of topics.The moment we lower the status Of ALI, A shariati seizes the opportunity to offload 5 candles.
I have asked a one line question which can be answered in one-three lines.
Still awaiting answer from Admin.
nuseri wrote:To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
A small question for you.
The strength of Ismaili beliefs n Faith come from material of those dead
or 'Inspiration of faith' from a Living Imam.????
Please note the word is beliefs and not history.
Dear nuseri - before anyone to attempt to answer the question; it's important to fully understand the question. As said, if you understand the question, you got 50% of the answer. Let's clarify your question first in order to be able to answer it.
You asked the following:
I think I know what's your intention for this, but the only element I would like you to clarify -- and please be specific; no vague answers -- is material of those dead.The strength of Ismaili beliefs n Faith come from material of those dead
or 'Inspiration of faith' from a Living Imam.????
Please kindly clarify who do you refer as of those dead???
Once we clarify this, I guess the answer to your question would be very straight forward.
And off course that is the reason I, do not answered his question so far!
BTW:- I strongly agree with Tret and Admin criticisms on him i.e. Nuseri has to give more clarification about his question if he really wants answer from some one!.
I have also noticed that most of time he asks question to one particular person
( most of time to ZZNoor or Tret) and that may be another reason readers does not answer him.
BTW:- I strongly agree with Tret and Admin criticisms on him i.e. Nuseri has to give more clarification about his question if he really wants answer from some one!.
I have also noticed that most of time he asks question to one particular person
( most of time to ZZNoor or Tret) and that may be another reason readers does not answer him.
Admin,And Imam said that our faith is based on thousands of years of history.
and !! How many those thousands of years in Imam mind? can you tell that?
Because in one of his farman he wrote that Ismaili tradition coming more than 1400 hundred years??
And in his another farman he has also told that Ismaili tradition ( may be he refering Shia tradition ) coming more than 1900 hundreds!!!
Why this two different farmans on same topic and from the mouth of our beloved IMAM!!?? when he tells every one that Imam knows every thing?
"KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN" Har say is in included in present imam!!
I believe Agakhani is trying to post partial 36.12Why this two different farmans on same topic and from the mouth of our beloved IMAM!!?? when he tells every one that Imam knows every thing?
"KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN" Har say is in included in present imam!!
36:12
Transliteration
Inna nahnu nuhyee almawta wanaktubu ma qaddamoo waatharahum wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin
As I said before
Some Ismailis have no respect for Quran so they butcher up Ayas of Quran to suite their POV. At least post correct transliteration.
wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin, does not translate into "Har say is in included in present imam!!"
And if Maulana Shah Karim knows evry thing
He knows about all impeding disasters and issue warnings.
Salaam
[quote="zznoor]
And if Maulana Shah Karim knows every thing
He knows about all impeding disasters and issue warnings.
Salaam[/quote]
I believe so does Allah. So what is your point? Is Allah stopping calamities from falling on earth or does he issue warning that a muslim can expect in a reasonable way to understand?
And since all Muslims extremists shout "Allah Hu Akbar" before killing fellow Muslims, which one are supported by Allah? Or does Allah hate all this killing done in His Name? You already know the reply. There is no need to blame Allah for the shortcomings of the humans.
And as to the remark about the Quran, yes it does say that everything is included in the Imam Manifest. If you disagree with the Quran, it is your problem, not ours.
And if Maulana Shah Karim knows every thing
He knows about all impeding disasters and issue warnings.
Salaam[/quote]
I believe so does Allah. So what is your point? Is Allah stopping calamities from falling on earth or does he issue warning that a muslim can expect in a reasonable way to understand?
And since all Muslims extremists shout "Allah Hu Akbar" before killing fellow Muslims, which one are supported by Allah? Or does Allah hate all this killing done in His Name? You already know the reply. There is no need to blame Allah for the shortcomings of the humans.
And as to the remark about the Quran, yes it does say that everything is included in the Imam Manifest. If you disagree with the Quran, it is your problem, not ours.
You are free translate what ever you want. Just have some respect for Holy book of Islam and make little effort to post decent transliteration.And as to the remark about the Quran, yes it does say that everything is included in the Imam Manifest. If you disagree with the Quran, it is your problem, not ours.
BTW those who commit atrocities in the name of Allah are not Muslims. Unfortunately even so called elite Muslims do not understand that.
Salaam
I do not agree with your above comments i.e. some Ismailis have no respect for Quran!, I do not know why you gave such kind bold comments?Some Ismailis have no respect for Quran so they butcher up Ayas of Quran to suite their POV. At least post correct transliteration.
First of all remember this, Islam is our religion and Ismaili is our tariqa, like 72 different firkas, so there is no question arise not to give respect to Quran but one thing I have observed many time that you do not have respect towards Ismailis sect!! period. if I was an Admin then I have banned your account long time ago.
Agakhani posted
"KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN"
I am sure you are posting partial Aya 36:12
Transliteration of 36:12 is as follows:
'Innā Naĥnu Nuĥyi Al-Mawtá Wa Naktubu Mā Qaddamū Wa 'Āthārahum ۚ Wa Kulla Shay'in 'Ĥşaynāhu Fī 'Imāmin Mubīnin
Translation by A Shia scholar
[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a 'Imāmin Mubīnin.
Now is it not clear you only posted partial Aya and also butchered transliteration.!
Salaam
"KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN"
I am sure you are posting partial Aya 36:12
Transliteration of 36:12 is as follows:
'Innā Naĥnu Nuĥyi Al-Mawtá Wa Naktubu Mā Qaddamū Wa 'Āthārahum ۚ Wa Kulla Shay'in 'Ĥşaynāhu Fī 'Imāmin Mubīnin
Translation by A Shia scholar
[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a 'Imāmin Mubīnin.
Now is it not clear you only posted partial Aya and also butchered transliteration.!
Salaam
When did I said that ""KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN" is an Quranic ayas ? did I wrote any where in my above post that this is an Quranic ayas ?
No, then why the heck you are making your own guess and emphasis, forcing and telling everyone that it is a partially quranic ayas ??
The truth is " above sentence is from Ismaili Holy Du'a so, keep your damn mouth shut and stop wrong guessing and lieing
No, then why the heck you are making your own guess and emphasis, forcing and telling everyone that it is a partially quranic ayas ??
The truth is " above sentence is from Ismaili Holy Du'a so, keep your damn mouth shut and stop wrong guessing and lieing
Dear zznoor -zznoor wrote:Agakhani posted
"KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN"
I am sure you are posting partial Aya 36:12
Transliteration of 36:12 is as follows:
'Innā Naĥnu Nuĥyi Al-Mawtá Wa Naktubu Mā Qaddamū Wa 'Āthārahum ۚ Wa Kulla Shay'in 'Ĥşaynāhu Fī 'Imāmin Mubīnin
Translation by A Shia scholar
[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a 'Imāmin Mubīnin.
Now is it not clear you only posted partial Aya and also butchered transliteration.!
Salaam
the problem isn't about not posting complete aya, but about interpretation of it!
Same as ahl-e- sunnah has different position on one of the widely accepted [by both sunnies and shias] event of ghadir-e-khum and the hadis of beloved prophet by dissecting the grammar and language being used, i.e. Maula being friend and not Lord or Master. Imam-e-Mubeen is just another example, where sunnies and shias have different interpretations. If they [sunnie and shia] agreed on their interpretations, then there wouldn't be a major divide in the first place; would it?
I guess the sooner we realize that it's okay to have various interpretations of the holly Qur'an and ayats, the better off we would be. But it's important -- I believe -- to tolerate and respect others' faith and believe, even if they may be different than ours
Stop nit pickingagakhani wrote:When did I said that ""KULHU SAINA A SAINA U FI IMAMIN MUBIN" is an Quranic ayas ? did I wrote any where in my above post that this is an Quranic ayas ?
No, then why the heck you are making your own guess and emphasis, forcing and telling everyone that it is a partially quranic ayas ??
The truth is " above sentence is from Ismaili Holy Du'a so, keep your damn mouth shut and stop wrong guessing and lieing
It is well known fact that Ismaili Dua uses partial Quranic Ayas.
From
Posted by: Ismaili Gnostic | March 3, 2013
The Esoterics (Batin) of Prayer:
From Salah to Du‘a’
Du‘ā’: The Esoteric Prayer (bāṭinī ṣalāh)
The word du‘ā’ simply means “call” or “supplication” and can refer to any informal or personal prayer. However, in this context, the word Du‘ā’ refers to the daily ritual prayer of the Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī Ṭarīqah of Islam. To understand the context and the nature of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ and why it differs from the exoteric Ṣalāh, it must be remembered that the gestures and actions of the Salāh symbolize the stages of initiation in the Da‘wah.
The Ismā‘īlī Ṭarīqah is an esoteric branch of Islam and therefore its ritual practices belong to the bāṭinī realm of the tarīqah in contrast to the ẓāhirī realm of the sharī‘ah. This is most evident in the layout of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’.
The Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ consists of six parts. Each part contains a Qur’ānic verse (or verses), a supplication (du‘ā’), an affirmation (ithbāt) of the Imām of the Time, and prostration (sujūd). The overall meaning of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ can be seen by simply noting the themes and order of the Qur’ānic verses recited through the six parts:
Part 1: Sūrah al-Fatiḥah whose main theme is the ‘ibādah (worship) of God
Part 2: Sūrah al-Nisa (4:59 – “O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Messenger and the holders of authority amongst you”)
and
Surah Yasīn (36:12 – “And We have encompassed all things in the Manifest Imām”) whose main themes are obedience (tā‘ah) to God’s representatives.
Part 3: Sūrah al-Mā’idah (5:67 – “O Messenger, proclaim that which has been revealed to you by your Lord…”) whose main theme is the declaration (tablīgh) of the Imamat.
Part 4: Sūrah al-Fath (48:10 – “Verily, those who give their bay‘ah unto you( Muhammad), they give their bay‘ah unto God Himself…”) whose main theme is bay‘ah/mithāq (covenant).
Part 5: Sūrah al-‘Anfal (8:27 – “O you who believe, do not betray God and His Messenger and do not betray your trusts (amānāt) while you know”) whose main theme is trust (amānah).
Part 6: Sūrah al-Ikhlāṣ (112 – “Say: He is God, the Unique. God is Independent. He did not beget nor was He begotton. And there is none like unto him”) whose main theme is the recognition (ma‘rifah) of tawḥīd.
Based on the Qur’anic verses evoked in each Part, the act of reciting the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ is a symbolic journey through the stages of the Ismā‘īlī Da‘wah:
Posted by: Ismaili Gnostic | March 3, 2013
The Esoterics (Batin) of Prayer:
From Salah to Du‘a’
Du‘ā’: The Esoteric Prayer (bāṭinī ṣalāh)
The word du‘ā’ simply means “call” or “supplication” and can refer to any informal or personal prayer. However, in this context, the word Du‘ā’ refers to the daily ritual prayer of the Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī Ṭarīqah of Islam. To understand the context and the nature of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ and why it differs from the exoteric Ṣalāh, it must be remembered that the gestures and actions of the Salāh symbolize the stages of initiation in the Da‘wah.
The Ismā‘īlī Ṭarīqah is an esoteric branch of Islam and therefore its ritual practices belong to the bāṭinī realm of the tarīqah in contrast to the ẓāhirī realm of the sharī‘ah. This is most evident in the layout of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’.
The Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ consists of six parts. Each part contains a Qur’ānic verse (or verses), a supplication (du‘ā’), an affirmation (ithbāt) of the Imām of the Time, and prostration (sujūd). The overall meaning of the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ can be seen by simply noting the themes and order of the Qur’ānic verses recited through the six parts:
Part 1: Sūrah al-Fatiḥah whose main theme is the ‘ibādah (worship) of God
Part 2: Sūrah al-Nisa (4:59 – “O you who believe, obey God, and obey the Messenger and the holders of authority amongst you”)
and
Surah Yasīn (36:12 – “And We have encompassed all things in the Manifest Imām”) whose main themes are obedience (tā‘ah) to God’s representatives.
Part 3: Sūrah al-Mā’idah (5:67 – “O Messenger, proclaim that which has been revealed to you by your Lord…”) whose main theme is the declaration (tablīgh) of the Imamat.
Part 4: Sūrah al-Fath (48:10 – “Verily, those who give their bay‘ah unto you( Muhammad), they give their bay‘ah unto God Himself…”) whose main theme is bay‘ah/mithāq (covenant).
Part 5: Sūrah al-‘Anfal (8:27 – “O you who believe, do not betray God and His Messenger and do not betray your trusts (amānāt) while you know”) whose main theme is trust (amānah).
Part 6: Sūrah al-Ikhlāṣ (112 – “Say: He is God, the Unique. God is Independent. He did not beget nor was He begotton. And there is none like unto him”) whose main theme is the recognition (ma‘rifah) of tawḥīd.
Based on the Qur’anic verses evoked in each Part, the act of reciting the Ismā‘īlī Du‘ā’ is a symbolic journey through the stages of the Ismā‘īlī Da‘wah:
Off course yours!!because I never denied that Ismaili du'a does not contain any Quranic Ayas matter of facts I knew it from my child hood that Ismaili du'a contain 6-7 ayas from Quran.Now whose turn is to keep quite?
But here we are talking about "KULHU SHAIN YA SHAIN IMAMIN MUBIN" which you told that it is a partial ayas from 36:12 which is totally lie from your side as your old habit
So let me put it here as written in Ismaili dua I still do not know it is a quranic ayas or not?
Ya ayyuhal-lazeena amnoo, ati-Ullah wa ati-ur-Rasoola wa Ulil Amri minkum. Wa kulla shai'in ahsainahu fee Imamim-mubeen).
Now can you translate it for me? this sentence "Wa Lulla Shai'in ashainahu fee "Imamim-Mubeen" ? and that is my point.