Prophet muhammed[saw] mentioned in hebrew bible

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:58 pm

Did you know the our rasool[saw] was mentioned in the hebrew bible by his name ??

seeing is believing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cur_6aYs ... re=related

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:53 pm

Interesting! Thanks for sharing......

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:58 am

Good video clip, I read it some where but never show the video which clearly mention the name of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) thanks for posting.

Prophet Mohammad's (s.a.) name mentioned in Hindu scripture, Vedas and some Purans also but with different name.

prince_visram · Post by **prince_visram** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:23 pm

agakhani wrote:Good video clip, I read it some where but never show the video which clearly mention the name of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) thanks for posting.

Prophet Mohammad's (s.a.) name mentioned in Hindu scripture, Vedas and some Purans also but with different name.

In reference to Prophet Muhammad (saw), check this out. I got it from this website, a seeming Satpanthi Ismaili.. I love the pictures and content of the website!! Very interesting in my opinion! (:

The Sayyed Imamshah depictions on the site are really beautiful..! Inshallah I will one day visit Pirana Villange..!

The Website: http://nishkalanki.piczo.com/mahiti?cr=5&linkvar=000044

Unique similarities between "Kalki Avtar" and prophet Mohammad

According to Hindu belief, the Hindu world awaits "the guide and leader", named Kalki Avatar. The Avtar is going to appear in the future, who will be the final Avtar and he will be bless for all mankind and kill the evil. There are several indications and specifications have been predicted and mentioned about the Avtar. And all these specifications and indications fit on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). We should keep in mind that the last prophet cannot be someone having a minor impact on the socio-religious setup of the world but a prominent personality. Specifications like date of birth, geographical character of place of birth and that the body emitted a sweet scent do not fit any other major personality in the world simultaneously. Because all the incidents, which have been mentioned about the coming of Avtar, have already been passed through with the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), it is logical not to wait for the Avtar in the future.

NAME OF KALKI AVTAR

"The prophet who will be born in Kali Yug, His name will be “SARWANAMA”."
(Chapter “Party Sarg” of Bhavishya Puran)

The meaning of “ANAMA” is praised one and “SARW” means all, so “Sarwanama” means the most revered or praised one and in Arabic language “Muhammad “ has the same meaning, if we translate Sanskrit word Sarwanama in to Arabic language it will be “Muhammad” only difference is the language.

Kalki Avatar
It is mentioned in Bhagvata Purana Khand 12 Adhyay 2 shlokas 18-20:
“It is in the house of Vishnuyash, the noble soul Brahmana chief of the village called sambhala that Lord Kalki will be incarnated”.

“The Lord of the universe, endowed with eight spiritual powers and excellence was unsurpassed in splendour and glory. Riding on a fleet horse given to him by angels, and with a sword in his hand, the saviour of the world will subdue all the miscreants”.

It is mentioned inBhagwat Purana Khand 1 Adhyay 3 Shloka 25:
“Then in the twilight of the Kali age, when kings will be as good as robbers, this protector of the world will be born of Vishnuyasa under the name Kalki“. The description of the Kalki Avatar i.e. the final Avatar is given in the verses Kalki Purana chapter 2 verses 4, 5, 7, 11 & 15.

1. Mother’s name Sumati i.e. Aaminah
The name of his mother will be Sumati (K.P.2: 4 & 11), which means gentle and thoughtful, Prophet Muhammad’s mother’s name was Aaminah, which means peaceful and gentle.

2. Father’s name Vishnuyash i.e. Abdullah.
His father’s name will be ‘Vishnuyash’ which means ‘worshipper of Vishnu’ i.e. ‘worshipper of God’. Muhammad’s father’s name was Abdullah which means ‘obedient worshipper of Allah i.e. God’.

3. Born in Sambhala i.e. Makkah
He will be born in a village called ‘Sambhala’ which means house of peace and security. Makkah is known as Darul Aman, which means house of peace and security.

4. Born in house of Chief Priest.
He will be born in the house of chief of the village Sambhala. Muhammad (pbuh) was born in the house of the chief of the Kaaba.

"So Kalki Avtar will take birth in 'Shambal Gram' in the house of brahmn Mahnt (religious leader) named Wishnu Wesh.
(Kalki Puran, Adhiyai 2, Ashlok 4),
(Bhagwat Puran, Skand 12, Adhyai 2, Ashlok 18)

BRAHMIN MAHANT mean spiritual and highly respected preist and Makkah’s highly respected preist was “Hasham”, then Hasham’s son “Abdul Mutlib” became the leading preist of Makkah, who was the grand father of prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Muhammad was born in home of Abdul Mutlib. In short, Muhammad was born in the respectable tribe of Quraish who enjoyed great respect and high place in Makkah.

5. Born on the 12th day of Madhav i.e. Rabi-ul-Awwal.
It is prophesied that Kalki Avtar will be born on the 12th day of the bright (first) half of the month of Madhav. It is a historical fact Muhammad (pbuh) was born on the 12th day of the bright half of the month of Rabi-ul-Awwal.

6. He will be the Antim or final Avatar
He has been described as the ‘Antim’ i.e. ‘the last and final’ of all the Avatars. The Qur’an also mentions:

DATE OF BIRTH OF KALKI AVTAR

"Kalki will born on 12th of month of Besakh (in 7th century)" (Kalki Puran, Adhiyai 2, Ashlok 15)

Besakh is famous month of Indian calendar. As per that calendar the date of birth of Mohammad (peace be upon him) is 12 Besakh 628 Bakrami. And that day as per Arabic calendar, Month Rabi I, year AlFeel and 2nd Monday. And this day was very pious near Hindus.
Date of birth of the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is exactly same in all history books.
THE PERIOD OF KALKI AVTAR

Kalki Avtar would ride horse, camel and keep the sword to kill the devil and enemies of religion.

It means that Kalki Avtar will be born in the time before present age when horse and camel were used for riding and sword was being used for fight. And in this period and in the coming future people will use cars, train & planes for riding and guns, missiles for fighting. We should not forget that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) used both horses & camels, and he fought with sword during battles against those who tried to eliminate the Muslims.

"Father of Kalki Avtar will die before his birth and his mother will die after some time of his birth."
(Kalki Puran & Bhagut Puran, Skand 12)
Father of the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) died 6 month before his birth and mother died 6 years after his birth.(contu.)
DEATH OF KALKI AVTAR’S PARENTS

* Kalki Avtar’s Father will die before his birth and his Mother will die after few years of his birth. (Kalki Puran, Bhaghwat Puran Khand 12)
These two indications clearly fit on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). His Father died earlier to his birth and his Mother died when Muhammad was only six year old. For reference please study the life history of prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

KALKI AVTAR WILL GET WISDOM ON A MOUNTAIN

According to Kalki Puran, the Kalki Avtar will receive wisdom or knowledge on a mountain’s cave from PERSHURAM (angel).

It is well known that Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was often going to the cave Hira near Makkah (still present) and there one night Angel Gabriel brought the message of God, "Read with the name of God…." And this revelation process continued all his life. And Pershoram is name of an angel with Hindu religion who brings destruction for disbelievers. And one name for Gabriel is Ruh Al Quddus (Holy Spirit), which is synonym of Pershoram in Sanskrit.

For reference Holy Quran (96:1) “Read (Prophet Muhammad) with the name of Allah” and he replied “ I am not learned” the same indication was given in the Christian’s scripture (Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12) “ and the book delivered to him that is not learned, saying “ Read this”, I pray thee: and he said, I am not learned”, this is another prove of his prophecy. So prophet Muhammad received his first revelation in the cave of mountain HIRA. And this prediction also fits on him.

MARRIAGE AND WIFE

"Kalki Avtar will marry a respected lady of Salmal Dip and this marriage ceremony will be arranged by one uncle and three brothers."
(Kalki Puran & Bhagut Puran)
Salmal Dip is Arabian Peninsula as per old Hindu traditions. The wife of Mohammad (peace be upon him) was Khudija and she was most respected lady in Quraish. The marriage ceremony was arranged by his uncle Abu Talib his three sons Jafar, Talib and Aqeel.

PREACHING, FACING HOSTILTY IN HIS NATIVE CITY, MIGRATION AND RETURN TO HIS CITY

"Kalki Avtar will start preaching his religion from his city Shumbal Gram (city of peace), which is in Salmal Dip (Arabia). The people of this city will oppose him and treat him cruelly. Then he will leave this city and migrate to another city in North which will be surrounded by rocky hills and mountains. And after a certain period He will come back to his native city with sword and conquer it. And after that all the country will be conquered.
(Kalki Puran)

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) started his preaching from Makkah (city of peace), which is situated in the Arabian peninsula. Such a land mass surrounded on most of its sides by water is geographically known as “deep” in hindi and “Jazeera” in urdu and Arabic. Thus Saudi Arabia is also commonly known in the Arabic speaking world as Jazeeratul Arab or the island of Arabia (called in kalki puran as salmal deep).

You see Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) started preaching in City of Peace (Makkah) and he was opposed by his people. The he migrated to Madinah which is 400km to the North of Makkah, and is surrounded by the mountains. And after reaching here the Makkans started fighting with the Muslims. And after eight years, he came with sword to Makkah and conquered it and then he promulgated the law of God. And after that all Arab was conquered.
A FLYING HORSE FROM GOD

* He will receive a flying horse from God, which will be faster than lightning. Riding it he will go around earth and seven skies” (Bhagwat Puran Khand 12, Adhay 2, Shloka 19-20)
This prediction is about Kalki Avtar also match with the Incidence of “MIRAJ” For reference see Holy Quran (17.1) and for detail Hadith s of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) regarding Incidence of Miraj.

HIS FIGHTING WITH ENEMIES OF GOD:
Kalki will fight with the enemies of religion with sword and will destroy many Satan natured and bad character people in the disguise of rulers.
(Bhagut Puran)

SPLITTING OF MOON AND ITS SIGHTING BY INDIAN KING

* According to the scripture Kalki Avtaar will split the moon.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) showed this miracle 1,400 ago. For reference see Holy Quran (54:1-3) “The hour drew night and moon rend (split) in twain …” For more details about moon splitting please study the hadiths of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) (Volume 4, book 56, number 830-832 and volume 5, book 58, number 209-211) According to these hadiths” the people of Makkah asked Allah’s Apostle to show a miracle (sign of his Prophecy). So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram Mountain”

There is an interesting tradition in India. Bhoj was an Indian king, there is still city Bhoj on his name in the territory of Kachh (Gujrat). Raja was born after so many years of Bhavish Puran during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). One night he saw moon splitting in two, he asked the Pundits, they studied the Vedas and Puranas, and told the king that this is the miracle of last prophet, when king asked the signs or descriptions of the Prophet, they told,” He will be from the city of peace (Makkah) and will be born in the house of a religious saint, his name will be “Narashansah” (the praised one) meaning Muhammad in Arabic, he will have four Khulafa and have 12 wifes “. In search of Narashansah, he came to know that he appeared in Makkah. He met with him and embraced Islam at the hand of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and prophet gave him the name Abdullah, when he came back to home his family did not accept him. He spend his whole life in remembering Prophet and in worship of one God.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:16 am

Interesting link specially for those peoples who has interest in comparison of Ismailism with other religions.

I specially like their 'AARTI' which match with Ismaili famous Aarti which we recite many time in Jamat Khanas.

'EJI PEHLA KARTA JUGMA SHAHNA SONA RE PAAT"

prince_visram · Post by **prince_visram** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:07 am

agakhani wrote:Interesting link specially for those peoples who has interest in comparison of Ismailism with other religions.

I specially like their 'AARTI' which match with Ismaili famous Aarti which we recite many time in Jamat Khanas.

'EJI PEHLA KARTA JUGMA SHAHNA SONA RE PAAT"

For those interested, you can hear the recitation of this "Aarti" here on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uvfIJ_gUEU

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 am

Unique similarities between "Kalki Avtar" and prophet Mohammad

Brother prince visram , if kalki avatar = rasool[saw] = 100% true and logical ....then what about ismaili interpretation of kalki avatar ??? Because as per ismailism kalki = imam ali[as] ??

your comments ??

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:48 am

As per Ismaili ginanic literature HAZARAT ALI (S.A..) is tenth incarnation or "NAKALANKI AVATAR" or "KALKI AVATAR". not Prophet Mohammad (s.a.),
and Shiraz, if you read Imamashahi sect's more literature specially written by SYED IMAM SHAH then you will find same theory that Hazarat Ali (S.A.) was Nakalanki Avatar, not Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) I do not who changed it? why they changed it? when changed it? but Syed Imam Shah never ever wrote that Prophet Mohammad (S.A.) was tenth avatar or nakalanki avataar any where, in his any ginan or in any dhol written by him. He mentioned Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) as a "BRAHMA" in his many ginans and dhol. it seems that this might be changed after his death by his followers. FYI;- IMAMSHAHI SECT STARTED MANY YEARS AFTER SYED IMAMSHAH'S DEATH STARTED BY HIS OWN SON SYED NURMOHAMMAD SHAH.
Even in Imamashahi sect's "DUA" Syed Imamshah mentioned Hazarat Ali (s.a.) as Nakalanki Avataar, and mentioned Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) as a Brahma, if any one need copy of their D'ua please let me know but it is in pure Gujarati.
So obliviously Prophet Mohammaad (s.a.) is not tenth incarnation, if we follow the Ismaili ginanic literature and we should accept that rather than youtube vidoes, PANDIT VEDPRAKASH'S BOOK ANME 'KALKI AVATAR" OR DR. ZAKIR NAIK THEORY AND BELIEVES.

for more detail please visit following link of Ismaili.net forum:-
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ght=#26805

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:30 pm

Btw: prophet Mohd mentioned in just few books but the truth is H.Ali is mentioned in Tauret, zaboor, Bible , Quran, Geeta, Gurbani and
Hindu Purans

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:02 am

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.

As per your research.
Is Brahma= God=Ali
or
Brahma=Prophet=Mohammed.
Is your absolute conviction is same as your research.
If not WHY.
please put up in few lines only

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:38 pm

Nuseri,

Nobody needs heavy reaserch in this simple Ismaili theory which is as follows
As per ginanic literature:
Brahma is Prophet Mohammad
Lord Vishnu is H.Ali (S.A.) i.e. Dasmo Nakalnki Avtaar, you can tell any imam as Nakalnki avtaar.
Brahma is creator hence all kaynaat was creator from Prophet Mohd's noor. I do not know much about quran so I am not pretty sure is there any ayas which supports this belief or not? But in Hadith yes.
Shiraz, Tret and a_2786 may can share their knowledges in this regard.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:31 am

Ya Ali Madad.
You are convinced Brahma as Prophet.
In very next line you say Brahma/Mohammed as creator of the universe.
Prophet as per Quran has not created the world It is ALI+lah=Allah who created the universe.
All prophets prayed to the creator n not unto themselves.
It look like a contarion statement with two set of belief placing Brahma
as Noor e paigamber as well Noor e Imamat/ALI/Creator.

As you have good study of Hinduism, Was the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh/Shiv.
Do they match with trinity theory of Ali,Salman and Mohammed.
Was Pir Imam Shah begum was from Ahle E Bayt ( noor e paighamber lineage)or appointed from Followers then.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:11 pm

Whatever I wrote above are quoted in ginans, I do not add any thing from my side!
To accept it or not (as taught by our pirs) is depends on individual's thinking matter of fact before Gadir -e- Khum's declaration Prophet Mohd"s (PBU)post was superior but after the declaration of H. Ali (s.a.) as his successor H. Ali (s.a.) post become superior.

As per the Hindu cosmology
Brahma is a creator
Vishnu is sustainer
Mahesh (Shiv ) is destroyer.
My question back to you if H. Ali was the creator ( Ali+ Allah = Ali is the Allah as per your thinking) of universe then who is destroyer as per your thinking?

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:12 pm

agakhani wrote: As per the Hindu cosmology
Brahma is a creator
Vishnu is sustainer
Mahesh (Shiv ) is destroyer.

Dear agakhani - Interesting would be, to explain as per Ismaili cosmology/theology this concept...

So, according to hindu, apparently there are multiple [divine] lords. Do you concur with these concepts?

Post by **Admin** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:06 pm

Ismaili Ginans say: Ram and Raheman are the same one, only the ignorant can not understand this.

There are no multiple Gods, this is a misunderstanding by some of the uneducated Hindus as the majority with whom I have talked, knows that all these "Gods" which are really the same as the "Attributes" of Allah, are all unified in the Essence of Krishna.

This is very well explained in the Gita if one takes the time to read it. For example you can see many Attributes in the following parts of the Gita in the Farmans of Krishna to Arjun and the replies that Arjun gives to Krishna:

O Countless formed Divinity, You are the First of the Gods, the Supreme Being, the Ancient Self, and You are the resting place of the world. You are the knower, the knowable, and the Supreme Abode of Lord Vishnu. This entire world is pervaded by You.
-Bhagavad Gita 11.38

Hinduism does not limit the Attributes of Allah, God, to 99 like many Muslims do. The number of Attributes of God is limitless in their beliefs.

Here still from the 11th Chapter of the Gita, the recognition by Arjun of Krishna as being the envelope of all of the Attributes:

Arjuna said:

15. I see all the Devas, O Deva, in Thy body, and hosts of all grades of beings; Brahma, the Lord, seated on the lotus, and all the Rishis and celestial serpents.

16. I see Thee of boundless form on every side with manifold arms, stomachs, mouths and eyes; neither the end nor the middle, nor also the beginning of Thee do I see, O Lord of the universe, O Universal Form.

17. I see Thee with diadem, club, and discus; a mass of radiance shining everywhere, very hard to look at, all around blazing like burning fire and sun, and immeasurable.

18. Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme Being, the one thing to be known. Thou art the great Refuge of this universe;. Thou art the undying Guardian of the Eternal Dharma, Thou art the Ancient. Purusha, I ween.

O God of Incomparable Power, You are the Father of this creation consisting of movables and immovable. You are the Adorable One, The Preceptor, and the Glorious One. There is no equal to You in the three worlds, much less can any one excel You.
-Bhagavad Gita 11.43

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:15 am

Admin wrote:Ismaili Ginans say: Ram and Raheman are the same one, only the ignorant can not understand this.

There are no multiple Gods, this is a misunderstanding by some of the uneducated Hindus as the majority with whom I have talked, knows that all these "Gods" which are really the same as the "Attributes" of Allah, are all unified in the Essence of Krishna.

This is very well explained in the Gita if one takes the time to read it. For example you can see many Attributes in the following parts of the Gita in the Farmans of Krishna to Arjun and the replies that Arjun gives to Krishna:

O Countless formed Divinity, You are the First of the Gods, the Supreme Being, the Ancient Self, and You are the resting place of the world. You are the knower, the knowable, and the Supreme Abode of Lord Vishnu. This entire world is pervaded by You.
-Bhagavad Gita 11.38

Hinduism does not limit the Attributes of Allah, God, to 99 like many Muslims do. The number of Attributes of God is limitless in their beliefs.

Here still from the 11th Chapter of the Gita, the recognition by Arjun of Krishna as being the envelope of all of the Attributes:

Arjuna said:

15. I see all the Devas, O Deva, in Thy body, and hosts of all grades of beings; Brahma, the Lord, seated on the lotus, and all the Rishis and celestial serpents.

16. I see Thee of boundless form on every side with manifold arms, stomachs, mouths and eyes; neither the end nor the middle, nor also the beginning of Thee do I see, O Lord of the universe, O Universal Form.

17. I see Thee with diadem, club, and discus; a mass of radiance shining everywhere, very hard to look at, all around blazing like burning fire and sun, and immeasurable.

18. Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme Being, the one thing to be known. Thou art the great Refuge of this universe;. Thou art the undying Guardian of the Eternal Dharma, Thou art the Ancient. Purusha, I ween.

O God of Incomparable Power, You are the Father of this creation consisting of movables and immovable. You are the Adorable One, The Preceptor, and the Glorious One. There is no equal to You in the three worlds, much less can any one excel You.
-Bhagavad Gita 11.43

I don't know that but the way agakhani explains, these lords are entities as opposed to attributes. That certainly implies existence of multiple lord. Don't you think so?

Attribute is manifested by an entity. The way it is explained, certainly doesn't mean attribute here in this context.

example of attribute would be "Merciful". Everyone can be merciful, but Almighty God is The most Merciful. Hence, Merciful [or rather The most Merciful] is one of God's attribute.

The lords that agakhani is referring, such as lord of creator/destroyer/sustained, doesn't appear as attribute, but rather entities.

Now, are they are equal in their divinity? or one is superior than the other?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:51 am

So, according to hindu, apparently there are multiple [divine] lords. Do you concur with these concepts?

God is only one in every religions either it is a Hindu religion or Islam, it may have different names that is it. Since God doesn't have any shape he has to send some one on earth and as per 'Gita' a holy Hindu book,whenever necessary arises God send some one to preach the peoples and bring them back on right tract and to kill devil, this kind births calls as an avatars like Krishna, Rama e.t.c. were fits in this category.
So far as per Hindu belief 9 incarnation/avatars has been already born and last 10th avatar will be come soon.
Now if we talk about Ismaili perception then the last 10 the incarnation also born in form of H. Ali (s.a.) but Hindu still waiting for that avatar to born.

Hindus has 33 karors devtas that does not mean they have 33 karors Gods!! those 33 karors were those human being who had got salvation (Moksha).

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:04 am

Below are some ginanic verses of related topic

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee.............16

Nuseri I do not think you need to translate above verses since you know Gujarati well.
but I like to emphasize one verse
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam : in this yug( Kal Yug ) Vishnu is the Imam.

Eji Brahma ne Vishnu Maheshvar kahiae,
Teto sarve che ae ghar mahain,
Ae ghar ma(n)thi aalaj chaliya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain. Cheto......

Meaning: The Gods such as Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshvar are all one in
this Satpanth and are manifest in Ali's progeny and is present with us in this world.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Dear agakhani - this is all according to hindu accounts. What I am interested in is your understanding based on Ismaili accounts. Ginanic text or fatimid, pre-fatimid.

You mentioned something like brahma is the creator, vishnu is the sustainer and mahesh is the destroyer...

So, just looking at that, it looks from where I see that these are 3 different [divine] entities, and each one has specific role/duty. I beg to differ with what admin has asserted that these are attributes. Attributes are adjectives that are manifested from an entity. i.e. agakhani is intellegent. Here the word 'intellegent' is an attribute. But if I say agakhani is the creator, or sustainer, then i am referring to an entity, same as if i say, agakhani is a teacher. Teacher is not an adjective, but rather a noun referred to an entity.

So, question comes back, if these are different entities,
- how are they different from one another, in terms of completness, superiority, knowledge?
- are they all at the same level, interns of completness, superiority, knowledge?
- Or are they different, where one is superior and other(s) is inferior?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Tret,
Thanks for your interest to know more about Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh!
it is very hard to explain this very deep topic in only one post but I will try it to explain it as per my little ability and in short.

-Since Hindu believes in trinity VISHNU, BHRAMA and and SHIVA but from our ginanic literature Vishnu is our mowla, Bhrama is our pir, about the role of Shiva(Maheswar) is big question mark for me! But wait......but some scholars in past answered it! They past they wrote that the third roll as a destroyer is also in MHI.!!! which make me little irate one IIS Gratuate brother KMaher Ali wrote about above question.

"The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once".

As per the book Noor -an mubin Shiva is Adam!.
As per the many Ginans vishnu is our Imam.

Once I asked to Brother K,

Do you mean that Shiva's (DESTROYER'S) roll is also in our Imam?
But as per Hindu religion view point Shiva is destroyer and you also mention in your above post, can you explain it in little more detail?

Read what he answerd:-

It is simple. The Imam is essentially the Mazhar of the Divine Essence and hence it can express itself in any manner. At present the Imam is the Gurnar or Shahpir - he is both the Imam and the Pir. So why can't he be three in one if we choose to adopt that doctrinal position?

It should be noted that by the term 'Destroyer' it is meant destroyer of evil and that is how he expressed himself in the narrative of the

Code: Select all

- how are they different from one another, in terms of completness, superiority, knowledge?

As per my understanding they all three have same" Noor" therefore no question arise who is superior and who is not?

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are they all at the same level, interns of completness, superiority, knowledge?

Yes. if you believe and accept either Ismaili religion or Hindu religion point of view. No body can say that "the noor" which prophet Mohd (PBUH)had was superior than the Noor which H. Ali (s.a.) had!! because they both were created from same Noor.

Your third question's answer also related to my above answers.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:46 pm

We have to measure all religious concept from their own perspective. If for Muslims Khaleek is the attribute of Allah, I am sure the Hindus have their own vocabulary for the same concept.

They may call it God and we may think it is different of Attributes but in really if all of their "gods" are in one GOD and all of our "attributes" are also in GOD, we have to accept that we are all talking of the same thing using different word because really GOD can not be talked with words or ideas or intellect, we can just try with our human limitation.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:00 pm

Admin wrote:We have to measure all religious concept from their own perspective. If for Muslims Khaleek is the attribute of Allah, I am sure the Hindus have their own vocabulary for the same concept.

They may call it God and we may think it is different of Attributes but in really if all of their "gods" are in one GOD and all of our "attributes" are also in GOD, we have to accept that we are all talking of the same thing using different word because really GOD can not be talked with words or ideas or intellect, we can just try with our human limitation.

I am not sure why are we talking hindu concept here...

your analogy is different the one of God's attributes [The most merciful, All-knowing, etc..], then the one which agakhani pointed out, as vishnu=sustainer, brahma=creator, mahesh=destroyer.

If these [vishnu, brahma, mahesh] were attribute of god, then why not say god is creator, god is sustainer, god is the destroyer? This in itself implies directly the existence of multiple [divine] lords, and I don't think we should try and reconcile them with the one of muslims, because we simply can't. I am sure, hindu religion has its own good and is sacred which I have respect for it, as I do for any other religion. I am not saying it's wrong or right, I am saying it's different than the concept of monotheism which affirms the existence of single most high God, as opposed to multiple [divine] lords. Besides, I don't think you or I can be a good advocate to defend hindu's position on this...

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:54 pm

No, we are not talking about Hindu concept here, but as long as I am concern then I am talking about ginanic concept and belief which our pirs taught us, it may be same like Hindu thinking or it may look like Hindu theory but in reality it is not.

To admin,
Yes they have many words for a word ' Ya Khalid'
Parmatma, Parmeshwar, Ishwar e.t.c.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:32 am

to Agakhani:Ya Ali madad.

The owner of sone ki jaal.

there is no Mahesh or shiv as godly entity.
It may co relate to to holy spirit/Salman may be with closer study.
In Quran It is ONLY ONE ALI+LAH=ALLAH who has said that He finished /destroyed
many eras n civilizations.
So he is one man show there in no destroyer mentioned by other name in Quran.
In Hinduism many facets of ALI/God his ability and features of act been given other names as well.
Same is said by Pir that this holy trinity in one.
I wish you all the best with your sone ki Jaal.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:24 am

I wish you all the best with your sone ki Jaal.

If your answer is as written above then let us leave with our 'golden net" and you can leave with your platinum OR diamond net. but beware of these that your Platinum or Golden nets does not turned in Iron! 'LOHE KI JAAL" ME NA BADAL JAYE!!!.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:10 am

agakhani wrote:Tret,
Thanks for your interest to know more about Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh!
it is very hard to explain this very deep topic in only one post but I will try it to explain it as per my little ability and in short.

-Since Hindu believes in trinity VISHNU, BHRAMA and and SHIVA but from our ginanic literature Vishnu is our mowla, Bhrama is our pir, about the role of Shiva(Maheswar) is big question mark for me! But wait......but some scholars in past answered it! They past they wrote that the third roll as a destroyer is also in MHI.!!! which make me little irate one IIS Gratuate brother KMaher Ali wrote about above question.

"The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once".

As per the book Noor -an mubin Shiva is Adam!.
As per the many Ginans vishnu is our Imam.

Once I asked to Brother K,

Do you mean that Shiva's (DESTROYER'S) roll is also in our Imam?
But as per Hindu religion view point Shiva is destroyer and you also mention in your above post, can you explain it in little more detail?

Read what he answerd:-

It is simple. The Imam is essentially the Mazhar of the Divine Essence and hence it can express itself in any manner. At present the Imam is the Gurnar or Shahpir - he is both the Imam and the Pir. So why can't he be three in one if we choose to adopt that doctrinal position?

It should be noted that by the term 'Destroyer' it is meant destroyer of evil and that is how he expressed himself in the narrative of the
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- how are they different from one another, in terms of completness, superiority, knowledge? 
As per my understanding they all three have same" Noor" therefore no question arise who is superior and who is not?
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are they all at the same level, interns of completness, superiority, knowledge? 
Yes. if you believe and accept either Ismaili religion or Hindu religion point of view. No body can say that "the noor" which prophet Mohd (PBUH)had was superior than the Noor which H. Ali (s.a.) had!! because they both were created from same Noor.

Your third question's answer also related to my above answers.

dear agakhani - thank you for this explanation.

I think what is meant by Shah / Pir is the offices of Imamat and Hujjatship. Where the manifest Imam [or the Prophet for that matter] can occupy both offices at times, and can appoint His wasi [legatee] at other times. These two offices namely Imamat and Hujjatship has existed during the human history and shall always exist. Today, as you rightfully stated that our beloved MHI occupies both offices of Imamat and Hujjatship [aka Shah & Pir according to Ginanic texts].

The third role that is referenced is not clear what that is?? I haven't read in any Ismaili text this third role of destroyer. You asserted that it's mentioned in Ginan; I'd love to have a reference to the English translation of the Ginan [or better yet, if you know any reference to any classical Ismaili accounts, that'd be much preferable].

I am not sure if it is inline with Ismaili doctrine that "Imam can manifest in anything that He wishes". On the contrary Imam is the Mazhar of the Divine Essence and the Nur of Imamat can be manifested only in the Manifest Imam.

Hindus believe that divine essence [whatever they think of divine essence] can be manifested in anything, such as animals [elephant, snakes, cows etc...], people, etc.. which is completely the opposite of the Ismailis. That's why Imam is by appointment and nass and hence heredity.