To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
Firstly for haqiqati the words if hadith is just a record the word Allah itself is sufficient to know and Follow ALI.
it any innovates faith he shoul be in hell why imam after imam
(nurunala nur) light after light is shining with proud followers.
Allah name was used to test the humanity.Prophet got marifat in a platter but for all they to grind thru million life cycles to know ALI.
in quran is spefically only those with deep understanding ( not escapist n copy cats) should explain the Quran.
their translation is laughing stock for ismailis nevertheless is DISASTER for
Shariati suffering on earth tying to self study or take sermon from roadside
Shabby Imams,moulvi and Mullahs.
Who could be considered a Muslim
Are you suggesting we follow his example in everything? Like marying 13 spouses?zznoor wrote:
Prophet Muhammad was sent as an example
Tell us zznoor would the Prophet (PBUH) hide from cameras and CCTV cameras in the street and the buildings if he was sent in the 21st Century? I don't think so.
Would he ride a camel? Are you following his example, what name is your camel? Toyota?
Sometimes your interpretation is so senseless that one would wonder in which Century you live and what you are doing on the Internet and especially on this website?
Once again idiotic argumentsAre you suggesting we follow his example in everything? Like marying 13 spouses?
Would he ride a camel? Are you following his example, what name is your camel? Toyota?
Prophet had 13 spouses
And a Muslim is prohibited to have more than 4, that is also if he can give them equal treatment.
Many countries you can have only one. And you have to respect laws of those countries.
Do you know Hz Ali had 4 wives an 19 concubines at the time of his death?
If Toyota was available in his time, he definitely used it. Another idiotic argument.
Please explainTell us zznoor would the Prophet (PBUH) hide from cameras and CCTV cameras in the street and the buildings if he was sent in the 21st Century? I don't think so.
But answer will be no.
Hey guys i think we have gone of track from the jist of the post. We cant allow ourselves to be drawn in to a debate where the other side is entitled to its own set of facts. When we will die, we will have the most fair Judge in the universe to decide amongst our differences. Bottom line is that i would like to use this forum to increase mine and anybody else's knowledge, not prove to anybody whether we are right or wrong.
Back to the question of who could be considered a Muslim. @Tret or anyone i agree that MHI has mentioned Shahada as being fundamental, but is shahada meant to differentiate Muslims as a Physical identity, from Christians and Jews frankly any one?
Consider the following prayers from our brothers from other mothers
May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days and in the life time of entire families of Israel ... Judaism 101
“May The Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.”’ Bible
A Psalm of David.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever. 23rd Psalm
From the Quran (Surah 94)
In the Name of God the Most Caring and the Most Compassionate.
Did We not lay open your heart
And relieve you of your burden
That was breaking your back
And honor you name
After the hard time
There is easing
After the hard time
There is easing
When you finish, aspire again
And in your Lord, aspire.
Back to the question of who could be considered a Muslim. @Tret or anyone i agree that MHI has mentioned Shahada as being fundamental, but is shahada meant to differentiate Muslims as a Physical identity, from Christians and Jews frankly any one?
Consider the following prayers from our brothers from other mothers
May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days and in the life time of entire families of Israel ... Judaism 101
“May The Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.”’ Bible
A Psalm of David.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil; My cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever. 23rd Psalm
From the Quran (Surah 94)
In the Name of God the Most Caring and the Most Compassionate.
Did We not lay open your heart
And relieve you of your burden
That was breaking your back
And honor you name
After the hard time
There is easing
After the hard time
There is easing
When you finish, aspire again
And in your Lord, aspire.
Actually Admin quotes are not idiots thoughts matter of fact your thinking and comments are idiots Why? because whatever prophet taught us and whatever Quran telling us most of things are out dated for long time ago now a days nobody rides on camels or donkeys( except ZZ and your puppet Tret, who think Quran is not out dated )but in Quran Allah say he makes camels for your rides!! was Allah blind? or prophet was really crazy as Jews and Christian were telling him crazy all the time?
? Astagafirulll they were not in this Modern time if any one believe and follow what quran say then every one must have to have ride on camels only,but we are not so obviously we are not completely follows what quran and Allah says!! and I bet you nobody can completely follows what Quran says. period if any one telling that he is follow what quran say then he is a big lier like you ZZNoor! so, what we have to do? the answer is; we needs some one who can guide us as per the time and circumstances changes , we call him as a 'BOLTA QURAN' that person is our Imam is not this simple theory for every one?? because neither Allah will come or any Prophet will come back so, that also proves that our Imam is Ali Sahi Allah!.
? Astagafirulll they were not in this Modern time if any one believe and follow what quran say then every one must have to have ride on camels only,but we are not so obviously we are not completely follows what quran and Allah says!! and I bet you nobody can completely follows what Quran says. period if any one telling that he is follow what quran say then he is a big lier like you ZZNoor! so, what we have to do? the answer is; we needs some one who can guide us as per the time and circumstances changes , we call him as a 'BOLTA QURAN' that person is our Imam is not this simple theory for every one?? because neither Allah will come or any Prophet will come back so, that also proves that our Imam is Ali Sahi Allah!.
Br Faiz006
ASAK
[external web link deleted]
It lists characteristic of ideal Muslim behavior. This behavior can only be fostered by adhering to Quranic guidance.
Sorry I cannot give you link. Not permitted.
All I want to say that modernity and adharance Quranic and Prophetic Hukum can go hand in hand.
I live in America and thousands of Muslim Professionals live modern life and at the same time be religious.
Salam
ASAK
[external web link deleted]
It lists characteristic of ideal Muslim behavior. This behavior can only be fostered by adhering to Quranic guidance.
Sorry I cannot give you link. Not permitted.
All I want to say that modernity and adharance Quranic and Prophetic Hukum can go hand in hand.
I live in America and thousands of Muslim Professionals live modern life and at the same time be religious.
Salam
To zznoor;Ya Ali Madad.
We Ismailis follow the Farmans of MHI .FULLSTOP.
We are the most successful community today on Earth.
be it on many wealth,social,health,community service and charity in compare to shallow fake stream Shariati.
being with time of today we are more faithful along being religious.
As an Ismaili,I have have mastered the ART OF GIVING be it time,intellect
and wealth for the cause of Imamat and our institution activities and for humanity at large.
if you are comfortable with your current status.
why the heck are on a Ismaili website?
BTW. Ali receives n accept prayers of whole humanity as an under different brand names.
he accepted the prayers of all past prophets then and may be even accepting your mimicked acts.
ALI need not pray any Dua etc etc.
We Ismailis follow the Farmans of MHI .FULLSTOP.
We are the most successful community today on Earth.
be it on many wealth,social,health,community service and charity in compare to shallow fake stream Shariati.
being with time of today we are more faithful along being religious.
As an Ismaili,I have have mastered the ART OF GIVING be it time,intellect
and wealth for the cause of Imamat and our institution activities and for humanity at large.
if you are comfortable with your current status.
why the heck are on a Ismaili website?
BTW. Ali receives n accept prayers of whole humanity as an under different brand names.
he accepted the prayers of all past prophets then and may be even accepting your mimicked acts.
ALI need not pray any Dua etc etc.
How can simple fact of Salat/Namaz out dated?Why? because whatever prophet taught us and whatever Quran telling us most of things are out dated for long time ago now a days nobody rides on camels or donkeys( except ZZ and your puppet Tret, who think Quran is not out dated )but in Quran Allah say he makes camels for your rides!! was Allah blind? or prophet was really crazy as Jews and Christian were telling him crazy all the time?
How can simple fact of Fasting out dated?
How can simple fact of Zakat out dated?
Ah so if we show you Sunni Sources about Ali being the Imam as Hadiths - you will accept it?zznoor wrote:There is no Aya in Quran saying prophet Muhammad's progeny will be heriditory imams.So show me an ayat of the quran that says - follow the hadiths....
So Hadith of Gadhir and other Ahadith are used to prove Imamat.
Is it not strange, you are using this to cut your on leg?
Once again - i have to take your chappal (slipper) and beat you over the head with it.
So following Ahle-Bayt.
We have the Tradition of the Ship - heard of it? otherwise known as Hadith al-Sanifah.
"Behold! - My Ahlul-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was saved, and whoever turned away from it was perished."
Sunni References :
1. al-Mustadrak by al-Hakim v2 p343
<b>2. Fadh'il al Sahaba - by Ahmad ibn Hanbal v2 p786</b>
I have page numbers and references for the below sources as well - all Sunni btw.
3. Tafsir al-Kabir - by Fakr al Razi
4. al-Bazzar - on the authority of ibn Abbas and Ibn Zubair
5. al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah
and i have 8 more sources - want them as well for this Hadith?
want more?
The Prophet has said -
"Verily among you will be one who will fight for the meaning of the Qur'an in the same way that I fought for it's revolution."
People asked "Will that be Umar or Abu Bakr?"
The Prophet replied -
"No, but it will be he who is mending my shoes."
And that was Hazrat Ali.
Kanz ul Ummal.
I have tonnes more to embarass you.
But you claim to be a muslim - so using the Qur'an - i tell you once again
FOLLOW YOUR FAITH - which says FOLLOW THE QURAN
which you claim to do -
"to you yours - to me mine."
Why don't you go to a Sunni site - where they'll worship you and adore you for your steadfastedness...
where you will not be jealous of the other people's fortunacy and faith - in having an Imam to guide them - someone from the progeny of the prophet.
Where you will have no doubts about your own faith.
you are here - because you aren't happy with your own faith - and you want us to convince you that we are right...
Faith comes from within - nothing from outside will convince you.
I pray that you find happiness in your chosen faith - or if Ismailism is your way than May Mowla grant you faith and conviction soon - so you stop floundering and this being made a fool of ceases for you - and we stop beating you with the sunni chappal you are so insistent on wearing.
Shams
Let believe for a minute that Quran is not out dated so, let me ask you few simple question?How can simple fact of Salat/Namaz out dated?
How can simple fact of Fasting out dated?
How can simple fact of Zakat out dated?
1, Are you still ride on camel?
Oh!!, I forget you ride not on camel but ride on "DONKEY' and your vehicle name is ZZNoor" personal'GADHA' CAMERY!!!
Are you fulfill all the instruction given in Quran?
Obviously No!! and if you say you are then you are a big li.r.!
What Quran say about donating sperm?
Quran is quiet! yes! because quran does not have answer of above and many other Modern time questions. I do not want to go in detail since I voluntary pulled out from this debate!.
FYI:- not only above question but there are many questions which quran doesn't have answer! so if Quran doesn't have answer or the answer given in Quran is not practiced anymore then what would you say to quran? if you not say Quran is outdated then what would you say!??
Shams bhaijan,
Thanks for quoting reliable Sunny sources indeed it is an eye opening proofs for every one but there are many who think and accepte that! oh, it must be true because it is quoted in Sunny sorces but brother they will noy believe it 100%.
I have experience about these kind peoples and zznoor is one of them. Period.
now back to zznoor I already wrote about her a gujarati/Urdu idiom dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka.
Thanks for quoting reliable Sunny sources indeed it is an eye opening proofs for every one but there are many who think and accepte that! oh, it must be true because it is quoted in Sunny sorces but brother they will noy believe it 100%.
I have experience about these kind peoples and zznoor is one of them. Period.
now back to zznoor I already wrote about her a gujarati/Urdu idiom dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka.
He said - she said..zznoor wrote:Copy and paste this
"Behold! - My Ahlul-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was saved, and whoever turned away from it was perished."
In serch
You wil find this
Takhreej of of narration present in Shia encyclopedia
You will find rigorous analysis of this and other hadith.
See you have your sources - we have ours...
--> once again we are back to the Wisdom of the Quran - which you refuse to acknowledge or follow - though you claim to be a muslim.
"to you yours - to me mine."
See the beauty of my islam - it allows you to practice your version - whether right or wrong - in contrast to yours where you are compelled to judge everyone else wrong in order for you to be right.
and for that I am okay being wrong and going to helll for it - Please do not worry about my salvation and my 72 houries - you can have them...
For my salvation - my Imam will take care of that - and don't worry if he doesn't. that is my deal - not yours.
Shams
I dont understand what 2:208 has to do with any thing. Submitting fully to God means excepting other faiths that God has sent. I don't see you doing that. Any ways maybe you should read all the way to 2:210, ultimately all matters are referred to God.
Also there are no Suras addressed to "Kafirs". Quran is a book that only addresses its believers, a Kafir would not read the book. Also the proper translation of what Shams was saying was that "You have your religion (with whatever it may bring you), and I have mine (with whatever it will bring me). In that Shams is correct there is no compulsion in faith every body has their own understanding.
Since you referred Shams to read 2:208 is it your assertion that Ismailis are unbelievers? If that is your assertion you should say so and be upfront. Its O.K we have heard the same from other sunnis. However you should concentrate on your own faith first. You mentioned namaz however you dont understand what that namaz is saying. You dont understand its structure, you dont understand why namaz is the way it is. At least Ismailis, well those who practice their faith regularly have a clear understanding of their prayers, and yes some Ismailis also understand namaz better then Mullas in the masjid.
ZZ an ayat for you to Ponder
6-116 And if you pay heed to the majority of those on the earth, they will lead you astray from God’s way. They follow only conjecture (not knowledge), and they themselves do nothing but make guesses (they pronounce and act according to their fancies, selfish interests, and personal value judgments).
ZZ question your faith like Ismailis do theirs. Dont follow what some mullah is saying. A true Ismaili doesn't follow MHI blindly at first. The faith is built through years of internal search and questioning. And finally try to understand your own prayers. Ultimately even trying to follow Mohammad (PBUH) blindly is haram according to the Quran that I read, and you supposedly follow. Also i did go through the web site that you advised. Ultimately Admin's words are correct. If you get bogged down in the Shariat of our faith than you will never understand the deeper beauty of our faith. Following something blindly is UnIslamic. Your faith and my faith is anything but simple, it took Mohammad (PBUH) all his life to understand it.
Food for thought, although knowing you by now i doubt any deep thought will be present in the discussion.
Also there are no Suras addressed to "Kafirs". Quran is a book that only addresses its believers, a Kafir would not read the book. Also the proper translation of what Shams was saying was that "You have your religion (with whatever it may bring you), and I have mine (with whatever it will bring me). In that Shams is correct there is no compulsion in faith every body has their own understanding.
Since you referred Shams to read 2:208 is it your assertion that Ismailis are unbelievers? If that is your assertion you should say so and be upfront. Its O.K we have heard the same from other sunnis. However you should concentrate on your own faith first. You mentioned namaz however you dont understand what that namaz is saying. You dont understand its structure, you dont understand why namaz is the way it is. At least Ismailis, well those who practice their faith regularly have a clear understanding of their prayers, and yes some Ismailis also understand namaz better then Mullas in the masjid.
ZZ an ayat for you to Ponder
6-116 And if you pay heed to the majority of those on the earth, they will lead you astray from God’s way. They follow only conjecture (not knowledge), and they themselves do nothing but make guesses (they pronounce and act according to their fancies, selfish interests, and personal value judgments).
ZZ question your faith like Ismailis do theirs. Dont follow what some mullah is saying. A true Ismaili doesn't follow MHI blindly at first. The faith is built through years of internal search and questioning. And finally try to understand your own prayers. Ultimately even trying to follow Mohammad (PBUH) blindly is haram according to the Quran that I read, and you supposedly follow. Also i did go through the web site that you advised. Ultimately Admin's words are correct. If you get bogged down in the Shariat of our faith than you will never understand the deeper beauty of our faith. Following something blindly is UnIslamic. Your faith and my faith is anything but simple, it took Mohammad (PBUH) all his life to understand it.
Food for thought, although knowing you by now i doubt any deep thought will be present in the discussion.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Look where this debate has ended noor, No matter how hard you try to incite hatred among our ismaili brothers and sisters its not helping. Not only you have lost the debate but also the respect that few members had for you on this forum.
It's clear to all the members on this forum that you are here with an agenda...the same agenda that an anti ismaili = Maherali of mostmerciful website sells on his website.
No matter how many times you have a debate on this very issue it will always end in the same fashion. So its better you practice that you feel is right and let ismailis practice what they think is true.
It's clear to all the members on this forum that you are here with an agenda...the same agenda that an anti ismaili = Maherali of mostmerciful website sells on his website.
No matter how many times you have a debate on this very issue it will always end in the same fashion. So its better you practice that you feel is right and let ismailis practice what they think is true.
It's clear to all the members on this forum that you are here with an agenda..
That is what I am talking about ZZnoor since last 3 years!! if any one in this forum is smart enough then he/she can easily figured out about her aim after so many insults, so many defeats and so many time readers show her door to leave this forum and told her to go Sunny website but nothing happen to her means she is working for some one and her main reason to stay in this forum no matter how bad readers treat her, no matter readers tells about her but her main reason to stay in this forum is spread propaganda toward Ismaili sect unfortunately Admin and other readers do not understand this simple fact! matter of facts some readers encourages her replying her trash, copy and pasting posts, which is nothing else but garbage any way, Admin should become strict on her and ban her account ... which he did for many other readers in past!! so it is nothing new for him and other readers need to stop encouraging her or stop reply her post.
Sura 109, Al-Kafiroonfaiz006
Also there are no Suras addressed to "Kafirs".
In this sura Allah asks Prophet to say to Kafirs
[1-6]Say: :"O disbelievers! I do not worship those whom you worship. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. For you is your religion and for me is mine."
This sura should not be used by one faction of Muslim to another faction justifying differences.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
I think what shamsB bhai was trying to imply was the plurality in the above aayat...If you cannot comprehend it, how is it his fault ???Say: :"O disbelievers! I do not worship those whom you worship. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. For you is your religion and for me is mine."
Well God is not only addressing the Prophet, he is addressing the believers is he not? At least according to copy that i am reading from. The ayat is not addressed to unbelievers, its merely a way to respond. Since prophet and believers were ceaselessly questioned about their beliefs this was the ayat that they were suppose to use to respond with. Since you do not believe and ceaselessly point out to us about what is wrong with our religion, we use it as a response to you.zznoor wrote:Sura 109, Al-Kafiroonfaiz006
Also there are no Suras addressed to "Kafirs".
In this sura Allah asks Prophet to say to Kafirs
[1-6]Say: :"O disbelievers! I do not worship those whom you worship. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship. For you is your religion and for me is mine."
This sura should not be used by one faction of Muslim to another faction justifying differences.
ZZ whats the point of the ceaseless bugging? Do you think we are unbelievers or not? Also about you know all aspects of the namaz, then why this pick and choose belief in Quran? Why do you only believe in what you want to believe? I also apologize for assuming that you did not know the aspects of your prayers, your choice reponses implied that you didnt.
@ Admin sorry couldn't resist the urge to respond, but this is my last post on the topic. Atleast i hope
