Hehe, nobody knows tret, all we could do is assume. Like I said earlier in one of my post that Imamat is the highest throne given to mankind [ahle bait]. It is the highest rank mentioned in quran [or a rank above Prophethood]. Those who hold on to them will have eternal bliss.
Just look at this beautiful aayat and compare it with our present imam
21:73
And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The imam’s ta‘lim lights the murid’s path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.
Instead of jumping from one aayat to another, lets just try to understand this beautiful aayat and try to relate it with our beautiful faith.
Ya Ali Madad:For all members.
Tret wrote a long sermon as 'Sharaiti e Azam'.
I particularly appreciated the last two lines.
As i am uneducated and have less understanding of powerful English.
I wish all member explain what these two line means and the word
manifest means.
"God/Allah does not manifest into just anything but manifest Imam/Ali.
my conviction is ALI manifest as ALI.
member good at two relational words of Allah n Ali.
Please at your level of inspiration re expiation two lines. Tret has done as his level.
what is meaning of the word manifest/manifestation in context to our Ismail doctrines and above two lines.
As an attorney,I have use provoking strategy to get end result.(some members may be aware of it.)
Please note that title of Pir given to mortal Ismaili followers.
It does not raise the rank to Imam's level n become their followers insted of Imam.
During fatimid era the title of 'pir' was not prevalent but of 'hujjat dai'
etc was there.If title of 'pir' is not attached before the names of Nasir khusraw.
he is revered as Pir of central Asian tradition.
the level many Qasidas start with status n truth of ALI is just great.I find them much richer than many Ginans.( not circling around but to the point).
I do not side with any traditions but the truth.
During opening of Ismaili Center in Dushanbe .MHI referred Nasir khusraw
as FOREMOST AMONG ISMAILI THINKERS'.
the word foremost mean top rung nearest to level of Ahle Bayt.
MHI opened many centers in Khoja tradition cities.
No name of Pir's was mentioned.
WHY WHY WHY.
I feel if any search is done on Farmans to Central Asian Jamat of past Imams.
there would something like if a person truly understood the Qasidas,they
would not need to read Farman n Quran as well.
they start as age 3 with 'dum hume dum ALI ALIi'. Right dialing the father from day 1.Father has no option but to reply,
Nothing less than Marifat.
Has anybody observed glow of light on their faces.(not the colour of their skin).
with preaching of ALI ALI to the world in future and Ayat of 'light on face'
no wonder did MHI say they would the future face of Ismailis to the world.
I would add to that mind power and Admin of Imamat would be the Khojas.
please note that one must not get carried away that Ginan are superior
than qasida,as title of Pir was attached to the composer does hold
hold any solid reasoning but hollow statement.
there would be many Farmans of Marfiti indication as Ali's status from Imams
earlier than Imam 46-48th.
Farman of Imam SMS were mainly addressed to Khojas,who got carried away with ginan as the main book undermining Farmans n Quran 125 year back.
Shiraz wrote:
Hehe, nobody knows tret, all we could do is assume.
Shiraz brother - I hope you didn't misunderstand me, when I said "You have no idea"...
My saying of "You have no idea" was in response to your "My goodness, you guys are still fighting it out !!! " alone, very specifically, and had no other intention whatsoever. It was meant more of a humorous than anything else. You catch my drift? I hope you didn't get it the wrong way, seriously! Just wanted to clarify. I myself admitted repeatedly that I don't know anything. My explanation is only my understanding and my opinions alone. I don't advocate and I don't dictate. Everyone's welcome to correct me, and I will be more than glad to be corrected.
Anyways, about the ayas that you have mentioned, apparently we can try and give our understanding but the real intended meaning of it, only Maula knows best.
But just an observation, have you noticed the words "We", "Us" in plurals? as opposed to "I" or "Me"? Since God is only One, and has to be referred as singular; but we see repeatedly, not only in these verses but in many others usage of plural pronouns, such as "We" or "Us". So, what is your understanding of the usage of plurals as opposed to singular?
And I believe the Ayat that I referred, is very closely related to the topic of our discussion. The oneness of Allah/God and the Nur of Imamat, where God is referring Himself as third person.
Maula Ali says "I am the secret of Allah".
I absolutely concur with your assertion of Imama's mandate and role of spiritual and temporal enhancement of murids, and that's what exactly MHI as well all previous Imams have been doing. There's no question, and we see it first hand today all around the world. Today, even Imamat mandate extends at a global scale to the entire mankind, and not only exclusively Ismailies, for example Imamati Institutions activities, AKDN and etc...
To nuseri -
I am not sure what do you mean by 'Shariati e Azam'? Can you please elaborate?
I believe your English is very descend, and my first language is not English either. I have too many flaws in my English too. I used to always fail English classes at school. But understanding of word Mazhar/Manifestation is not really related to English. There has been quite a lot of discussion around the concept of Mazhar/Manifestation, especially between Shia and Sunnie scholars. I don't have any references or resources, but I am aware of it.
Manifestation can be literally translated in various ways, i.e. the following are all literal translations of Manifestation.
But, my understanding is more importantly, Imam of the Time, reflects All Divine Attributes of God, i.e. The exalted, the all knowing, the most merciful, etc... So, while the Imam of the Time [Manifest Imam] is the Mazhar of God, HE also reflects all the Divine Attributes.
We believe that similar to temporal[physical] world or Dunya, There is an spiritual world[Din]. Similarly, in physical world we have ranks at religious level and the Imam of the time is at the highest, then Hujjat[Pir], then Dai, Muhaleem[Teacher], Mustajeb, etc.... Similarly, in the spiritual realm, there are ranks. Imam is at the highest, which is First Intellect [aka Nur-e-Imamat/The One/etc...], then Universal Soul, Which is equated to Hujjat[Pir] in physical world [Lower sphere]. It's important, I believe to realize that First Intellect came to existence directly from The Command of God with no mediation[/b], which makes it Complete and Absolute reality. Universal Soul, however came to existence through the mediation of Divine Intellect. Therefore, It[Universal Soul] is potentially perfect. It's also said, that Intellect is the light of Soul. We purify our soul by receiving knowledge of Tawhid. Also, Soul needs saving, Intellect doesn't, in the physical world.
So, The Divine Intellect can only be identified with The Command of God. If you recall the story of the moth and the candle. The candle identified the third moth, who plunged into the flame of the candle. In other words, the Candle identified the moth with himself as one. Or the moth becomes one with the Candle. In this case, the Divine Intellect can only be identified with the Command of God. For example, if we take the example of Black and Blackness. We find Blackness only in the object that are identified as Black color. If we take away the Black object, the blackness cease exist. So we perceive Blackness only through a Black object. Such is the relation between The Command of God [Which is God's Essence] and The First creation/Divine Intellect.
Basically, what I wanted to explain, is that this physical world is manifestation of Allah's creation, and we have similar ranks in the spiritual realm as well, So, Divine Intellect[Nur-e-Imamat] in spiritual realm can be equated as the Manifest Imam, The Universal Soul can be equated as the Hujjat[Pir].
The individual souls will occupy an imaginary body in the spiritual realm, which will be what it knows in this physical sphere. i.e. if an individual soul is obedience and of a good soul, who did good deeds, in the world hereafter, will occupy an imaginary body which it knows of in the physical world; similarly, if an individual soul was ignorant, and only was occupied with temporal attachments will only knows that, and will be consumed in guilt and shame, in the world hereafter. [These are my understanding, and I am not even sure if I am correct or not. I will be glad if I am corrected. I am very mindful about this]
I know most of the time when we try to respond, it makes sense to ourselves only; and it can very well be confusing to the observer. So, if something doesn't make sense, i hope I can be excused. Or I can try to clarify or put it in other worlds.
zznoor wrote:
Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory. He also knew when and where each Aya were revealed. If it was compromised he would have corrected it. He was Amir ul Mumin for all Muslims for more then 5 years.
On what authority are you pretending this?
On authority of our Imam Mowlana sultana Muhammad Shah we know that according to the explanation given in His Farman, Mowlana Ali went to the people compiling the Quran and offered his accurate unadulterated copy but they told him they did not need it as they would compiled their own. At that time Hazrat Ali put his copy under his arm and turn back saying "you will not get the real Quran up to the end of time (Qiyamat) ". He respected his promise.
sheri wrote:
In Urdu: it means "Allah comes from Ali." This is absurd.
If you can not comprehend this simple evidence, please go read Corbin's "Trilogie Ismaelienne) and the Declaration of Alamut by Mowlana Alazikrihi Salaam. Allah has attributes, He is the Creator and the Most Merciful.
Imam is the Essence beyond all Attributes, he transcends all of them. That is how what looks absurd to you looks perfectly evident to others. Sometimes, try to understand other peole's point of view instead of being judgmental and take a deep breath before making great declaration such as this "This is absurd." First read on Ismailism.
Allah is just a word n name n THE entity is ALI.
read the Imam Aga Ali shah farman.
FRAME IT IN YOUR WALL IF WANT SAVE YOUR SOUL from hell.
"ALI thi Allah Allah ej ALI.'
it clearly say that the name n word Allah has come from ALI n
Allah that is ONLY ALI.
to whom have u given your Bayat?
isani,nathoo or tattu.
keep barking till Admin call the dog van for you.
true Ismaili does need profile n status from any tom dick n harry
but from Imam n designated Pirs ONLY.
somebody wrote Jk has library with material of academic interest.
we also have it in our JK.
for baatin n noorani didar we need to sit in JK n not it's library.
those book are not part of our Faith.
what is is our faith advancement is already mentioned.
If reading about Ismail ism is Marifat then one of the forum member a PhD having read over 4000 books would be sitting on ALI's head by now.
please read the below it light note.
In my past Life being not educated I asked that I cannot do much of reading,he told that I was a duffer that I should just learn one word n
and meditate on it.I am today with new life stuck to one word.
I asked was it a punishment or else.he said that I will know it myself.
in primary many a time punishes a student to write a line or a word 100 or more times as punishment.
Ismailis should strive for spiritual intellect blessed from ALI.
trying to read what Imam has told in plain simple language also
hinted from quran,dua tasbih and straight words by pir/Dai.
by sheer cursed faith status person non ismaili are giving more weight age n importance to material not JK prayer hall but books written by tom dick n harry to show his status lower than Ismailies are now n rising futher to
higher level of status understanding.
WHAT IS NOT SAID IN JK PRAYER AREA.
is of NO value to any true Ismaili.
ALI wants marfati momins and not heavy minded readers of religions.
There is no farman stating that reading of scholars on Ismaili will lead the reader.
All the reading I see is low level Zahiri stuff,which Imam SMS has said in Farman to ignore the braying n barking of them.
to baatin,noorani didar n marifat.
what is the intent of a person not willing to talk about
dua,tasbih,farman,ginan qasida.
Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory.
ZZNoor,
You need to read history first, Hazarat Ali went to those peoples who were gathered over there to compiling the Quran and told them I have real Quran same as prophet Mohammed uttered from his holy mouth but compiling committee didn't accepted that Quran so, H. Ali went back with whatever Quran he had. so you can not say that whatever Quran we have is from the memory of H. Ali!.
Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory.
ZZNoor,
You need to read history first, Hazarat Ali went to those peoples who were gathered over there to compiling the Quran and told them I have real Quran same as prophet Mohammed uttered from his holy mouth but compiling committee didn't accepted that Quran so, H. Ali went back with whatever Quran he had. so you can not say that whatever Quran we have is from the memory of H. Ali!.
I get brother
Admin has made it clear Ismaili stand as follows
On what authority are you pretending this?
On authority of our Imam Mowlana sultana Muhammad Shah we know that according to the explanation given in His Farman, Mowlana Ali went to the people compiling the Quran and offered his accurate unadulterated copy but they told him they did not need it as they would compiled their own. At that time Hazrat Ali put his copy under his arm and turn back saying "you will not get the real Quran up to the end of time (Qiyamat) ". He respected his promise.
So we will have to wait for Qiyamat for it but at that time we all will be in turmoil and we will have no time to read it.
In meanwhile we just play game which Aya is authentic and which is forged.
One thing I forgot to mention is that Command of God which is God's Essence must be understood separate from First Intellect, despite of being one, such as example of Black and Blackness. those who consider them as one, enters into anthropomorphism, which negates the central teaching and doctrine of Islam and Ismailies, which is Oneness of God Almighty.
Somewhat, I agree with your above two posts but I do not agree that reading and getting knowledge is not necessary in our lives! I believe that knowledge help us to get progress in Bandgi not only this but knowledge help us in our health and also to get better life Trust me reading alot and gaining knowledge definitely helped me in Bandagi, meditation, in Heath and offcurse in wealth too. Its all depend how you uses your knowledge. but let me repeat Admin slogan here " half knowledge is dangerous" he is right and that is why we see too many cyber ceimes now a days! they have knowledge also but they are using it wrong ways!
zznoor wrote:
So we will have to wait for Qiyamat for it but at that time we all will be in turmoil and we will have no time to read it. In meanwhile we just play game which Aya is authentic and which is forged.
Actually you need to revisit what Imam Ali said at Jang e Siffin.
For ismailis, the Quran is present here today, NOW, ETERNALLY.
But yes those who do not believe in Imam e Mubeen are in turmoil today, NOW, ETERNALLY!
Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory.
ZZNoor,
You need to read history first, Hazarat Ali went to those peoples who were gathered over there to compiling the Quran and told them I have real Quran same as prophet Mohammed uttered from his holy mouth but compiling committee didn't accepted that Quran so, H. Ali went back with whatever Quran he had. so you can not say that whatever Quran we have is from the memory of H. Ali!.
I get brother
Admin has made it clear Ismaili stand as follows
On what authority are you pretending this?
On authority of our Imam Mowlana sultana Muhammad Shah we know that according to the explanation given in His Farman, Mowlana Ali went to the people compiling the Quran and offered his accurate unadulterated copy but they told him they did not need it as they would compiled their own. At that time Hazrat Ali put his copy under his arm and turn back saying "you will not get the real Quran up to the end of time (Qiyamat) ". He respected his promise.
So we will have to wait for Qiyamat for it but at that time we all will be in turmoil and we will have no time to read it.
In meanwhile we just play game which Aya is authentic and which is forged.
Maula Ali says "whoever believes in me, shall see me in the day of judgement; whoever don't believe in me, shall also see me in the day of judgement."
tret wrote:
The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
Can you tell me what's its literal translation? (I know every may interpret it differently, but just literal, word to word translation).
Is Sahi = Correct/True/Real
or Is Sahi derived from the word "Shah"?
In some context of sentences, "sahi" means "correct".
But in this case of "Ali sahi Allah", it can be interpreted as "Ali is true God" or "truly, Ali is God"
Your use of the word "interpreted" displays uncertainty. "Sahi" is not a Gujarati word, and it can mean a lot of things. Agakhani / ShamsB can you post the original Gujarati text for the "Ali Sahi Allah" text of the dua.
Ya Ali madad.
the most common translation word for Sahi is RIGHT/TRUE.
here is can be as rightfully /truly.
Dua was kept simple,hence not many complicated or confusing meaning of it.
To ShamsB:Ya Ali madad.
I do not agree that farman and ginans are same.Do you wish it for me to clarify my stand on it?
Just few post back.
I read as "Moula ALI said believer as well as non believers will see him on day of judgement.
I have 3 observation out of it. Please correct me.
1. If Ali is claiming that all will see HIM,then he is challenging the Quran,as per the book all will see Allah.
2.Ali is telling in a discreet way( baatin) that he himself in Allah.
Qiyamat is living life like heaven n hell today on earth.
To see a figure body with eyes n optical senses with memory is needed.
Nothing is available up there.
3.the tone of message of ALI sound as if siad in displeasure and even some anger is closely observed.
There are Ayats in Quran to what happen to people on whom ALI
is angry or played mischief.this a very serious price the shariati are paying today.
To Tret: Ya Ali Madad.
on Allah/God manifesting appearing as Imam/ ALI.
so ALI/Imam is already there on earth.this copy paste statement of a pious soul is declaring that Allah/Imam is same n no different.
only said in fancy English,while it is said simple in below material.No rocket science.
which is there in our Farman,ginan qasida,tasbih.(main syllabus).
Nothing great in that disclosure.every Haqiqati/true Ismaili knows that from ages.
To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
Nice to observe your statements tone n stand.
I feel your observance of your eye rings is doing something.
it is better sooner than later that you burn the burqa along with all Shariti (crap) material n images,except Quran.
Go for light on the face and Not darker eye rings( very dangerous)
as age passes by or death catches up.
Your use of the word "interpreted" displays uncertainty. "Sahi" is not a Gujarati word
Who told you that Sahi is not Gujarati word? matter of fact it is still used in North Gujarat, I have many friends they use sahi words in the their daily talk! Don't forget that I have doctorate degree in Gujarati.
Below is the proof.
સહી
No. Type Pronunciation Meaning
1 f., a., adv. signature. a. true. adv. granted, agreed; certainly.
Brother "Do not through your golden net in water" اپنی سونے کی جال کو پانی مے نہیں فنک! .
I know you have old Gujarati Du'a which I gave it to you in Austin, but do not put it here it will be fruitless and your efforts will be goes in vain. they will not accept it even they shows their own eyes that ALI SAHI ALLAH WORD HAS BEEN USED IN OLD DU'A. Some readers comes here just for nothing but only argues. so my humble request is please do not put it here.
nuseri wrote:...
To Tret: Ya Ali Madad.
on Allah/God manifesting appearing as Imam/ ALI.
so ALI/Imam is already there on earth.this copy paste statement of a pious soul is declaring that Allah/Imam is same n no different.
only said in fancy English,while it is said simple in below material.No rocket science.
I really believe this topic deserve to be discussed carefully and not to be simplified. The "fancy english" accordimg to you, is necessary to logically and metaphysically explain and understand the corelation of spieitual and temporal realm in accordance with Ismaili doctrine. I highly doubt for a wise man to simplify these matters.
Imam is always present on earth that for certain. We do see *trace* of God's wisdome everywhere on earth. (This latter fully deserve its own thread).
Howecer, on your assertion about Qiyamat, i beg to defer. If you want to talk about Qiyamat, i will beorw than glad to chime in.
tret wrote:
The expression of "Ali Sahi Allah" is Urdu or Gujrati, I assume?
Can you tell me what's its literal translation? (I know every may interpret it differently, but just literal, word to word translation).
Is Sahi = Correct/True/Real
or Is Sahi derived from the word "Shah"?
In some context of sentences, "sahi" means "correct".
But in this case of "Ali sahi Allah", it can be interpreted as "Ali is true God" or "truly, Ali is God"
Your use of the word "interpreted" displays uncertainty. "Sahi" is not a Gujarati word, and it can mean a lot of things. Agakhani / ShamsB can you post the original Gujarati text for the "Ali Sahi Allah" text of the dua.
Even in Kiswahili (east African language) it means the same thing.
Nuseri,
Since you have asked and challenge bro. Shams that ginans and farmans are not same! So I am waiting for him to satisfys you first, after all he has more knowlwdge then me on our religion but I have fire arms ready also to prove you wrong. I think Shams will answer you first as a PhD holder and I believe that he deserve it priotity and hope that he will satisfy you completly but if necessary arise then I will join and prove you wrong that is for sure, so be ready for my attomic attacks. before we go in deep I will sugest you to study ginans first before making such kind of bold decision. Plus your haters towards ginans are not remained hidden any more so my advise is think before you write, kabh kabhii apne gireban me dekha Karo!
Let me tell what today's science says. I am not sure how much are you into science; but in today's information age that science is progressimg exponentially especially im the domain of astrology and cosmology; the closest thing science jas come to yet is "Dark Matter", which is nothing but a placeholder for the unknown and the mystry of the univers. And yet you so simply declare it is no rocket science.
Ya Ali madad.
Allah manifesting/appearing as Imam/ALI is straight forward one or two line declaration in farman ,tasbih,ginan qasidas.
no need from an outsider to tell the children 'who the father is?'
father himself n insiders(pir/ dai) has told us.
There is no rocket science in it, it isthe depth n blessing of one's conviction.
all the crap doctrine tweaking assumptions unseen n unproven is a waste of space in the forum.
if one is cursed with disbelief he waits for next phase of many lives till blessed to born as true ismaili.if one does not elevate his conviction
A true Ismaili does not doubt or challenge Farmans.
He has absolute faith in what Imam say is absolute TRUE.
He follows it 100% not 99.9% level.
In farman of Imam SMS.
HE valued an Ismaili equal to 1000 non believers in the world.
and in another farman a haqiqati momin equaling to 100000 non believers.
is a rare commodity.
True Ismaili draws it faith from JK material n not outside sources.
any outside source material approved n acknowledge by Imams
can be taken a supplementary information for academic pursuit
for scholars and Al waez.
What is ordered daily is 'Inspiration of Faith' and not 'academic of religion'.
A cunning person can mingle data from both and create a disaster posting.
an analogy.
Some book of faith/sufi says 'Water is Life".
iIn a general statement on website mentions
the water flowing is sewage stinks like hell.
both look true to level of readers.
a cunning devil can rephrase as to lower status of Life
by re composing is as
" Life stinks like hell'.
90% of your posting is in this category.
10% copy pasting of blessed Persian Sufis
which sound fair n haqiqati.
For a true Ismaili for his final exam.ALI will determine n bless him/her
is how good he/ is on one word blessed upon him.
and not many thousand memorized from academic material.
Any discovery made from universe existing creations is a 'finding' which existed
and not a rocket science or invention/machine made made material
Discovery n Invention have different meaning.
ShamsB wrote:
Only difference is that I would hold Ginans above Qasidas - unless the Qasidas are written by Imams or the Pirs (imam Mustawda).
Ginans written by Pirs (Imam Mustawda) to me have the status of Farmans.
Shams
Is this your assumption that Qasidas are written by others? Or you actually know it for fact?
If it's simple assumption, then how would you draw the conclusion?
Do you know who were the Hujjat[Pir] during Imam Mustansir billah?
I stated my ignorance about Ginan; however, I didn't discriminate the status of Ginan. However, when you make that assertion, either you must know entirely Qasidas, as well as Ginans to make the comparison and draw the conclusion. Otherwise your conclusion is biased and influenced based on background and history.
FYI, Nasir-e-Khusraw was Hujjat-e-Azam of his time [Hujjat = Pir].
Nope
You are WRONG.
Read what you wrote...you just equated Nasir Khusraw to Hazar Imam - because according to the will of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - Hazar Imam is our Imam and Pir - i.e. 49th Imam and 50th Pir.
In order to be an Imam Mustawda (Living PIR) you have to be from Ahle Bayt.
The PIR/IMAM MUSTAWDA during the time of Imam Mustansirbillah the first was
Pir Mohammad Nuruddin i.e. Pir Satgur Noor - who was sent to India.
And he was from the Ahl -e- Bayt.
Now - there are individuals that the Imam can give the TITLE of a PIR to..POSTHOMOUSLY...that doesn't make them the Imam-Mustawda.
If you read the list of 50 Pirs - you will not find Nasir Khusraw or Hasan Bin Sabah or Pir Sabzali or Pir Ismail Gangji in them.
and this was the list recited in the old Du'a.
This is when i say - you are unable to grasp what we're saying.
FYI - HUJJAT does not EQUAL IMAM MUSTAWDA (which is the correct terminology for the 50 PIRS descended from Ahl-e-Bayt) i.e. those with the status of the Prophet as first PIR/Imam Mustawda.
and I'll preempt your "claim" that the Central Asians don't follow this by saying that they do, as do the Chinese Ismailies (once again - first hand information and confirmation as I type). I posted the link to "on the recognition of the Imam" - a badakshani/central asian text - and lo and behold - I have found that the Chinese Ismailies have a similar text - where they lay out the same structure as Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Ismailies and we are very much in synch and agreement.
The issue is semantic - just as the muslims have many meanings for the word Mowla and Imam - thus do the Central Asians - to them Pir is a title for Revered Teacher. It is a sign of respect- not of authority.
So first..learn about Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustaqir - you seem to be so keen to go to the "Arab" forms of Islam - I am taking you back to the early evolution of the Ismaili faith in the Arabic context - why is that so hard?
Or out of your depth?
You will not find the word "PIR" in arabic texts or text predating the Persian period in our history - because P is not a consonant in the Arabic vocabulary/language.
The word to seek is Imam Mustawda - thus Pir Hasan is also known as Imam Hasan; as he was the Imam Mustawda - i.e. appointed Imam not inherited Imam.
Only those from Ahl-e-Bayt can be appointed Imam-Mustawda and then only by the Imam-Mustaqar.
and Imam-Mustaqar is hereditary - Imam-Mustawda is not.
Please - you claim to have knowledge of your tradition - please read up on what they actually believe versus give us layman's interpretations and claim to be an expert.
Shams
nuseri wrote:To ShamsB:Ya Ali madad.
I do not agree that farman and ginans are same.Do you wish it for me to clarify my stand on it?
Just few post back.
I read as "Moula ALI said believer as well as non believers will see him on day of judgement.
I have 3 observation out of it. Please correct me.
1. If Ali is claiming that all will see HIM,then he is challenging the Quran,as per the book all will see Allah.
2.Ali is telling in a discreet way( baatin) that he himself in Allah.
Qiyamat is living life like heaven n hell today on earth.
To see a figure body with eyes n optical senses with memory is needed.
Nothing is available up there.
3.the tone of message of ALI sound as if siad in displeasure and even some anger is closely observed.
There are Ayats in Quran to what happen to people on whom ALI
is angry or played mischief.this a very serious price the shariati are paying today.
To Tret: Ya Ali Madad.
on Allah/God manifesting appearing as Imam/ ALI.
so ALI/Imam is already there on earth.this copy paste statement of a pious soul is declaring that Allah/Imam is same n no different.
only said in fancy English,while it is said simple in below material.No rocket science.
which is there in our Farman,ginan qasida,tasbih.(main syllabus).
Nothing great in that disclosure.every Haqiqati/true Ismaili knows that from ages.
To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
Nice to observe your statements tone n stand.
I feel your observance of your eye rings is doing something.
it is better sooner than later that you burn the burqa along with all Shariti (crap) material n images,except Quran.
Go for light on the face and Not darker eye rings( very dangerous)
as age passes by or death catches up.
You are free to not agree with me on anything.
It doesn't make you right..or me wrong.
We each have our own interpretations.
You use fancy ways to say Ali+llah or something like that.
I am direct and have no issues saying there is no Allah - only Ali..and in order for me to believe that, i don't need others to accept it or call me marifati or myself marifati.
To make things easy for you - there is a hadith of the prophet - Ali and I are from the same noor.
thus if the Shah/Pir (Imam Mustawda) are both from the same noor - then what's the difference?
We give our bayah to the Pir - the intercessor (imam mustawda) and he promises to lead us to the Shah (imam Mustaqqar) - thus when we're told our Imams will intercede for us - it's referring to the Imam Mustawda not Imam Mustaqar - keep in mind - P is not in the arabic langauge.
Also Hazar Imam is our Pir as well - so is the Imam making the Farmans or the Pir?
so once again - you are free to disagree...and be happy in your belief.
nuseri wrote:To ShamsB:Ya Ali madad.
I do not agree that farman and ginans are same.Do you wish it for me to clarify my stand on it?
Just few post back.
I read as "Moula ALI said believer as well as non believers will see him on day of judgement.
I have 3 observation out of it. Please correct me.
1. If Ali is claiming that all will see HIM,then he is challenging the Quran,as per the book all will see Allah.
2.Ali is telling in a discreet way( baatin) that he himself in Allah.
Qiyamat is living life like heaven n hell today on earth.
To see a figure body with eyes n optical senses with memory is needed.
Nothing is available up there.
3.the tone of message of ALI sound as if siad in displeasure and even some anger is closely observed.
There are Ayats in Quran to what happen to people on whom ALI
is angry or played mischief.this a very serious price the shariati are paying today.
To Tret: Ya Ali Madad.
on Allah/God manifesting appearing as Imam/ ALI.
so ALI/Imam is already there on earth.this copy paste statement of a pious soul is declaring that Allah/Imam is same n no different.
only said in fancy English,while it is said simple in below material.No rocket science.
which is there in our Farman,ginan qasida,tasbih.(main syllabus).
Nothing great in that disclosure.every Haqiqati/true Ismaili knows that from ages.
To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
Nice to observe your statements tone n stand.
I feel your observance of your eye rings is doing something.
it is better sooner than later that you burn the burqa along with all Shariti (crap) material n images,except Quran.
Go for light on the face and Not darker eye rings( very dangerous)
as age passes by or death catches up.
You are free to not agree with me on anything.
It doesn't make you right..or me wrong.
We each have our own interpretations.
You use fancy ways to say Ali+llah or something like that.
I am direct and have no issues saying there is no Allah - only Ali..and in order for me to believe that, i don't need others to accept it or call me marifati or myself marifati.
To make things easy for you - there is a hadith of the prophet - Ali and I are from the same noor.
thus if the Shah/Pir (Imam Mustawda) are both from the same noor - then what's the difference?
We give our bayah to the Pir - the intercessor (imam mustawda) and he promises to lead us to the Shah (imam Mustaqqar) - thus when we're told our Imams will intercede for us - it's referring to the Imam Mustawda not Imam Mustaqar - keep in mind - P is not in the arabic langauge.
Also Hazar Imam is our Pir as well - so is the Imam making the Farmans or the Pir?
so once again - you are free to disagree...and be happy in your belief.
Shiraz.virani wrote: All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams
Admin wrote:Please refer to the discussion on the compilation of the Mushaf (Written present book known as Quran) after the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and after Allah had declared since long time to have completed the Faith of Islam.
Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory. He also knew when and where each Aya were revealed. If it was compromised he would have corrected it. He was Amir ul Mumin for all Muslims for more then 5 years.
Have you heard of Duali?
I am guessing not.
Go find out - btw he wasn't a Shia - but rather a Sunni Muslim.
Even in Kiswahili (east African language) it means the same thing.