"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri

[nuseri]

To ShamsB:

The source where I got is very genuine,He says many Khangi Farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah are undated. I wish some Scholars and Bhagats should know more about it.
BHAI AAP TO SAWAL PUCH TEH HO, PAR JAWAB NAHI DETE.

[Admin]

Some Khojki manuscripts loose pages with time. Most of the time the lost pages are either first and last or the few first and the few last.

This is normal.

However that Farman in in several manuscripts and I guess when proper cataloging is done, the date will be find in some of them - If the manuscripts have not been destroyed by then.

[ShamsB]

To ShamsB:

The source where I got is very genuine,He says many Khangi Farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah are undated. I wish some Scholars and Bhagats should know more about it.
BHAI AAP TO SAWAL PUCH TEH HO, PAR JAWAB NAHI DETE.

I am not doubting the authenticity of the Farman - I have it in Khojki as well - and it is present in the manuscripts that I have as well - but the date is missing. The manuscripts cover pages were torn a long time ago (as Admin pointed out).
Was just trying to see if there was a date - then maybe could put a date to the other farmans that are around by Imam Aga Ali Shah.
Some are still in Vikram Calender format.
Shams

[nuseri]

To Admin/Shams B.

Ya ali Madad:

The source is a learned Bhagat of Old Khoja School.He says it is in a compilation of around 90 pages called "Ginan Sangrha" in regular Gujarati.only some Farmans have only the Year written on it. Name of Imam used is 'Ali Shah Datar'.

He also has it in pdf file. He can email to interested readers.

Hamare Quiz ka aap log jawab nahi dete,aapki mushku rahat hume deekh aati hai.

[salim123321]

In ismailism many people have doubt on Ali sahi Allah so let me clarify it through a short story which will help you to understand the concept
When i was small n a thot came in my mind where is Allah my mom said that Allah stays in heaven which is above us so i looked up and the very first thing i saw was sun so i thot sun is Allah
i Was so happy i tok'd with him for hours but suddenly wen i saw at sky again my God disappeared i felt bad den i thot that moon is thy God i rejoiced but few hours later even he disappeared and sun came back den i realised that both sun and moon are one entity but as time passes on God changes his face
my dear friends its the same thing Ali is Allah but at a same time they both different entity......
dont get confused. In Quran it is written Allah has no permanent body so he is manifestor so Ali was Allah's form till the time My mawla was on earth after my mawla died Allah transformed himself into hussain soo mawla hussain became Allah and the cycle goes on and on but my friends soul and body both two different entities and at the same time they are the same. one cannot remove soul from body without the will of Allah
if i say That Ali is Allah then i mean that the soul which is in Ali is Allah i do not mean Hazrat Ali's body is Allah yet my mawla is beautiful one cannot describe his beauty
Ali is Allah means the soul in Ali is Allah not Amir ul muminin's body
and today i am gonna share a secret hit the link and see it yourself.these two videos will clear all your doubts regarding Ali
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IiosicGMGjM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_HogN2Qg-0[b][/b]

[agakhani]

Great information Salim, unfortunately not all Ismailis thinks that way about H. Ali i.e. 'ALI IS THE ALLAH' 'ALI SAHI ALLAH'

[agakhani]

" Je Dua tame pado cho tema Ali Allah bolya ane Hazar Imam nu Naam lo cho,te Hazar Imam hu chu ane ane Ali Allah kahecho te Ali thi Allah ane Allah EJ ALI che.To pachi hu sijda kone karu?Ane hu sajdo karu to maro shu Faydo Thayee?

.

To Nuseri & Shams,
Thanks Nuseri, I have the copy of that farmans too but I do not posted here because of my personal reason.
But Brother ShamB I will find out date and place where above farmans was made and put it here.

[tret]

In ismailism many people have doubt on Ali sahi Allah so let me clarify it through a short story which will help you to understand the concept
When i was small n a thot came in my mind where is Allah my mom said that Allah stays in heaven which is above us so i looked up and the very first thing i saw was sun so i thot sun is Allah
i Was so happy i tok'd with him for hours but suddenly wen i saw at sky again my God disappeared i felt bad den i thot that moon is thy God i rejoiced but few hours later even he disappeared and sun came back den i realised that both sun and moon are [/b]one entity[/b] but as time passes on God changes his face
my dear friends its the same thing Ali is Allah but at a same time they both different entity......
dont get confused. In Quran it is written Allah has no permanent body so he is manifestor so Ali was Allah's form till the time My mawla was on earth after my mawla died Allah transformed himself into hussain soo mawla hussain became Allah and the cycle goes on and on but my friends soul and body both two different entities and at the same time they are the same. one cannot remove soul from body without the will of Allah
if i say That Ali is Allah then i mean that the soul which is in Ali is Allah i do not mean Hazrat Ali's body is Allah yet my mawla is beautiful one cannot describe his beauty
Ali is Allah means the soul in Ali is Allah not Amir ul muminin's body
and today i am gonna share a secret hit the link and see it yourself.these two videos will clear all your doubts regarding Ali

Welcome to the forum!

I see some serious flaws in your story, and specially the message that you are trying to send.

Sun or moon can not be given as analogy to the Supreme God/Almighty Allah. According to Islam Doctrine in general, God/Almighty Allah must be understood according to surah Ikhlas

I highlighted your analysis and your understanding, where you asserted the likeness of sun and moon and how God can change his face. I think you are trying to refer to Duality or Dualism, where Imam lives in a human body as a human, but at the same time has an spiritual role that's the locus of the manifestation of the divine Nur.

Even logically speaking in a material sense, Sun and moon can not be the same. They may have very little similarities like they are both round shape and and that's it. Sun has its own light and gives light to others. Moon doesn't have its own light, and receives light from Sun alone. During the day when Sun is out, the moon must hide or Moon's light is taken over by sun's light. However during the night, moon's light lightens everywhere in the absence of the sun.

The Sun and Moon can be compared as the Imam[Sun] and His Hujjat[Moon]. Hujjat[The moon] receives tay'id or divine inspiration[light] from the Imam[Sun], and passes through the Murids, at night [absence of the Imam].

According to Islam theology, God and God's Essence does not change! God doesn't manifest into things. God's first creation [We ismailies call it The Eternal Imam/Nur Imamat/First Intellect/Universal Intellect/The One/etc...] is manifested into Manifest Imam and into Divine Messengers prior to Manifest Imam.

Other religions believe, however, God can be manifested into anything It wills, such as any human, any object, or any animals, etc... and Ismaili/Islam doctrine rejects that.

True that Nur Imamat existed since the origination of the creation, and it will continue to exist till the day of the judgement [haws-e-kawsar]. But, according to Ismaili doctrine, Nur Imamat must not be considered as God or God's Essence.

[salim123321]

There is no one greater than myself .if you think of God then it is myself,if you think of pir then too it is me,if you think of Imam then too it is me and your beloved master is also me.There is no one except myself
-Mowlana Imam sultan mohammad shah(vadi jamatkhana march16th1902)

[tret]

There is no one greater than myself .if you think of God then it is myself,if you think of pir then too it is me,if you think of Imam then too it is me and your beloved master is also me.There is no one except myself
-Mowlana Imam sultan mohammad shah(vadi jamatkhana march16th1902)

There a reason why Ismailis are called Ullul-Amr. We obide by the Farameen of the Imam of the Time. Any Farameen of previous Imam can be over-ruled If contradicted by the Imam of the Time. Besides, is it the exact extract of the Farmaan of MSM? or is it the translated version? I am not questioning the Farmaan, btw.

What do you say about the following, when MHI has approved the concept of God to be understood and thought?

the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

You do know surah Ikhlas, don't you?


BTW, do you have any Farmaan of MHI that affirms the above mentioned Farmaan?

[a_27826]

There is no one greater than myself .if you think of God then it is myself,if you think of pir then too it is me,if you think of Imam then too it is me and your beloved master is also me.There is no one except myself
-Mowlana Imam sultan mohammad shah(vadi jamatkhana march16th1902)

BTW, do you have any Farmaan of MHI that affirms the above mentioned Farmaan?

Well, did the present Imam nullify the above firman of his predecessor ?

Assuming the above Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's firman is authentic and the present Imam hasn't nullified it, then the firman is valid.

I don't think you want the present Imam to affirm all the past 48 Imams firmans.

What will come next ? that we shouldn't pay dasond because the present Imam hasn't affirmed it ?

[tret]

There is no one greater than myself .if you think of God then it is myself,if you think of pir then too it is me,if you think of Imam then too it is me and your beloved master is also me.There is no one except myself
-Mowlana Imam sultan mohammad shah(vadi jamatkhana march16th1902)

BTW, do you have any Farmaan of MHI that affirms the above mentioned Farmaan?

Well, did the present Imam nullify the above firman of his predecessor ?

Assuming the above Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's firman is authentic and the present Imam hasn't nullified it, then the firman is valid.

I don't think you want the present Imam to affirm all the past 48 Imams firmans.

What will come next ? that we shouldn't pay dasond because the present Imam hasn't affirmed it ?

Good observation. That's why I quoted what was approved by MHI about the concept of God. Please re-read what I posted, that concept of God has to be thought and understood according to Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. That in itself is a contradiction.

[sheri]

Here are all the alleged firmans that are floating around on the web:

ALI SAHI ALLAH

Farmans on Ali Allah

I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam. (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)

There is no one greater than Myself..If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself... (Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902)

Whatever is, is Ya ali. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 3rd day of Bhadarwa soud 1878 A.D.)

Give death, make alive, give life, give the Rozi, all this is in the hands of Ya Ali. Make rain; reach the Destination, put in Heaven or in Hell, all this is in the hands of Ya Ali. Only the true believers perceive the miracles of the Imam...
We the Imams in descent from Imam Hussein, are present until today and We shall remain until the Qiyamat and even after the Qiyamat... (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 2nd day of Magsar soudh 1874 A.D.)

Whatever exists is within Us. We will accompany you till the Origin. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, Bombay, 1884 A.D.)

We are your leader and True Lord of this world and the next. I am Ya Ali, I am Imam Hussein. Whatever you want to ask, ask Us. We are the First and the Last. Therefore, obey only to Us... Be among those who know the Imam. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 1856 A.D)

Imam is the Resurrector. He is the Lord of beings. He is the Lord which is the act of being absolute. He excludes all existential determinations because He transcends all of them. He opens the door of His mercy and from the Light of his knowledge, He makes everything seeing, listening and talking for eternity... (Mowlana Ala’zikrihis Salaam, 8/08/1164 at Alamut. Quoted page 144 of H.Corbin, "Histoire de la philosophie islamique:, Paris 1964.)

Imam never disappears... (Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah Kutch, Nagalpur, 28/11/1903)

Imam is the cause of creation. This world could not exist without Imam and if Imam desires, the world would disintegrate in a moment. (Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah Madagascar 1946)

I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin-naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A'uzu bir-Rabin-naas, Malikin-naas, Elahin-naas. What does Malikin-naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin-naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of Malikin-naas as "Master of the People - The Imam"; Hazar Imam was very pleased.)

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I will go further. In the same Sura you have Kul A'uzu bir-Rabin-naas, Malikin-naas, Elahin-naas, Min shar-ril vasaasil Khannas. What does the word Vasvaas mean. What is the meaning of the word Vasvaas. It is important to know the meaning.

(A spiritual child answered in Gujarati "Vasvasaa".)

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I am very happy to see that I can ask you what are difficult questions and there is always someone present who knows the answer.
Bombay, 9 Nov 1967.

There will be Imams in the future, and the age will not be atomic, it may be the space age, and maybe it will be further than the space age - but all that means is that Allah's presence is everywhere, all the time.

Nairobi, Kenya – Parklands – 5 Oct 1982


One thing you will notice from all these firmans is that either the author is Henry Corbin or the firmans are alleged to originate from Ismailis that were Hindu converts. All the firmans are from Indian origin. I have yet to see this concept in firmans stated in any other part of the world. There is a serious misrepresentation going on and individuals are forging the IMAMs farmans. They claim they have these old manuscripts, but don't believe what they say, do not end your search by heeding the word of the folks on this website, try to find Allah and he will surely guide you to his essence.

[sheri]

Here is a link on the Shia Chat website. There is significant propaganda going on against ismailies and by forging these claim that "Ali=Allah" and the IMAMS have claimed divinity there are enemies of Ismailism who want to bring down the Ismaili Immamat. I hope people can see the real motive behind making such assertions. Please scroll to the middle of the page. Read some of the comments. Check the picture people have photoshopped to discredit our beloved IMAMS.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234 ... ms/page-11

[tret]

Here are all the alleged firmans that are floating around on the web:

ALI SAHI ALLAH

Farmans on Ali Allah

I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam. (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)

There is no one greater than Myself..If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself... (Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902)

Whatever is, is Ya ali. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 3rd day of Bhadarwa soud 1878 A.D.)

Give death, make alive, give life, give the Rozi, all this is in the hands of Ya Ali. Make rain; reach the Destination, put in Heaven or in Hell, all this is in the hands of Ya Ali. Only the true believers perceive the miracles of the Imam...
We the Imams in descent from Imam Hussein, are present until today and We shall remain until the Qiyamat and even after the Qiyamat... (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 2nd day of Magsar soudh 1874 A.D.)

Whatever exists is within Us. We will accompany you till the Origin. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, Bombay, 1884 A.D.)

We are your leader and True Lord of this world and the next. I am Ya Ali, I am Imam Hussein. Whatever you want to ask, ask Us. We are the First and the Last. Therefore, obey only to Us... Be among those who know the Imam. (Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, 1856 A.D)

Imam is the Resurrector. He is the Lord of beings. He is the Lord which is the act of being absolute. He excludes all existential determinations because He transcends all of them. He opens the door of His mercy and from the Light of his knowledge, He makes everything seeing, listening and talking for eternity... (Mowlana Ala’zikrihis Salaam, 8/08/1164 at Alamut. Quoted page 144 of H.Corbin, "Histoire de la philosophie islamique:, Paris 1964.)

Imam never disappears... (Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah Kutch, Nagalpur, 28/11/1903)

Imam is the cause of creation. This world could not exist without Imam and if Imam desires, the world would disintegrate in a moment. (Mowlana Sultan Mohamed Shah Madagascar 1946)

I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin-naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A'uzu bir-Rabin-naas, Malikin-naas, Elahin-naas. What does Malikin-naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin-naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of Malikin-naas as "Master of the People - The Imam"; Hazar Imam was very pleased.)

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I will go further. In the same Sura you have Kul A'uzu bir-Rabin-naas, Malikin-naas, Elahin-naas, Min shar-ril vasaasil Khannas. What does the word Vasvaas mean. What is the meaning of the word Vasvaas. It is important to know the meaning.

(A spiritual child answered in Gujarati "Vasvasaa".)

Good, very good. My beloved spiritual children, I am very happy to see that I can ask you what are difficult questions and there is always someone present who knows the answer.
Bombay, 9 Nov 1967.

There will be Imams in the future, and the age will not be atomic, it may be the space age, and maybe it will be further than the space age - but all that means is that Allah's presence is everywhere, all the time.

Nairobi, Kenya – Parklands – 5 Oct 1982


One thing you will notice from all these firmans is that either the author is Henry Corbin or the firmans are alleged to originate from Ismailis that were Hindu converts. All the firmans are from Indian origin. I have yet to see this concept in firmans stated in any other part of the world. There is a serious misrepresentation going on and individuals are forging the IMAMs farmans. They claim they have these old manuscripts, but don't believe what they say, do not end your search by heeding the word of the folks on this website, try to find Allah and he will surely guide you to his essence.

Sheri, Even the extracts of these Farameen Mubarak, doesn't imply the IMAM as Allah. Imam is the manifestation of the first creation of Allah, which is the Divine Intellect. and Divine intellect is the cause of the creation.

God/Allah can not be a cause for creation. Because, if that was the case, then God/Allah would be dependent on his cause to be causee. Therefore, The Imam is the cause of the creation, in the sense of the celestial realm (Al'am Ul'wi).

I think this would be clarified, if we try to understand the concept of God/Allah, and not try to understand God/Allah himself.

[a_27826]

BTW, do you have any Farmaan of MHI that affirms the above mentioned Farmaan?

Well, did the present Imam nullify the above firman of his predecessor ?

Assuming the above Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's firman is authentic and the present Imam hasn't nullified it, then the firman is valid.

I don't think you want the present Imam to affirm all the past 48 Imams firmans.

What will come next ? that we shouldn't pay dasond because the present Imam hasn't affirmed it ?

Good observation. That's why I quoted what was approved by MHI about the concept of God. Please re-read what I posted, that concept of God has to be thought and understood according to Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. That in itself is a contradiction.

The quoted Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's was made when Media was quite advanced and must have been published by the Ismaili Authorities of that time.

To Shams,
is this firman published ?

[sheri]

Tret, what worries me is that people turn interpretation into beliefs and then propagate those interpretations as beliefs.

This is the golden age of information and MHI clearly knows that he is on record and what he says will reach around the globe at the speed of light. With technology we will be able to record, archive and authenticate the word (oral saying) of the IMAM.

However, prior to MHI, the IMAM relied on individuals to write the firmans. There was no institutional capacity to validate the authenticity of the firmans. There was no control over the published firmans.

Someone heard a firman, wrote it in a book and published the book. Who knows what is authentic, what is forged from the previous IMAMs. If we can't authenticate it, and MHI has not approved of a previous firman floating around the WWW. I would consider it irrelevant as support to justify this concept.

I will only believe this concept when someone can provide an authentic firman approved by the MHI or I hear it with my own ears from MHI or authentic sources.

If IMAM SMS had the courage to say so clearly that "He Is God," then MHI is doing a disservice to his current jamat by not claiming as such. We live in much tolerant times than before, and it should be easier to make a claim if that is the truth. However, I have not yet heard MHI confirm or approve any such claim. Instead, the concept of God put forward in the constitution is what is approved and we all should believe that to be the word of the IMAM.

[tret]

Tret, what worries me is that people turn interpretation into beliefs and then propagate those interpretations as beliefs.

This is the golden age of information and MHI clearly knows that he is on record and what he says will reach around the globe at the speed of light. With technology we will be able to record, archive and authenticate the word (oral saying) of the IMAM.

However, prior to MHI, the IMAM relied on individuals to write the firmans. There was no institutional capacity to validate the authenticity of the firmans. There was no control over the published firmans.

Someone heard a firman, wrote it in a book and published the book. Who knows what is authentic, what is forged from the previous IMAMs. If we can't authenticate it, and MHI has not approved of a previous firman floating around the WWW. I would consider it irrelevant as support to justify this concept.

I will only believe this concept when someone can provide an authentic firman approved by the MHI or I hear it with my own ears from MHI or authentic sources.

If IMAM SMS had the courage to say so clearly that "He Is God," then MHI is doing a disservice to his current jamat by not claiming as such. We live in much tolerant times than before, and it should be easier to make a claim if that is the truth. However, I have not yet heard MHI confirm or approve any such claim. Instead, the concept of God put forward in the constitution is what is approved and we all should believe that to be the word of the IMAM.

I understand what you are saying. It is alright, as long as everyone keeps their belief to them, and not making it look like it's the belief of Ismaili in general. The reason why I am saying is one can believe the Imam according to his level of understanding, and he decides to belief Imam is Allah; that would he his personal belief; but to imply that it's Ismaili belief in general, then I don't think it would be alright.

I don't have any issue with other participants believing that Imam is Allah, at all, so long as they keep it personal and their belief alone. As soon as they imply that it's general belief of Ismaili, then it would be a mis-representation and dis-information.

[ShamsB]

Tret, what worries me is that people turn interpretation into beliefs and then propagate those interpretations as beliefs.

This is the golden age of information and MHI clearly knows that he is on record and what he says will reach around the globe at the speed of light. With technology we will be able to record, archive and authenticate the word (oral saying) of the IMAM.

However, prior to MHI, the IMAM relied on individuals to write the firmans. There was no institutional capacity to validate the authenticity of the firmans. There was no control over the published firmans.

Someone heard a firman, wrote it in a book and published the book. Who knows what is authentic, what is forged from the previous IMAMs. If we can't authenticate it, and MHI has not approved of a previous firman floating around the WWW. I would consider it irrelevant as support to justify this concept.

I will only believe this concept when someone can provide an authentic firman approved by the MHI or I hear it with my own ears from MHI or authentic sources.

If IMAM SMS had the courage to say so clearly that "He Is God," then MHI is doing a disservice to his current jamat by not claiming as such. We live in much tolerant times than before, and it should be easier to make a claim if that is the truth. However, I have not yet heard MHI confirm or approve any such claim. Instead, the concept of God put forward in the constitution is what is approved and we all should believe that to be the word of the IMAM.

I understand what you are saying. It is alright, as long as everyone keeps their belief to them, and not making it look like it's the belief of Ismaili in general. The reason why I am saying is one can believe the Imam according to his level of understanding, and he decides to belief Imam is Allah; that would he his personal belief; but to imply that it's Ismaili belief in general, then I don't think it would be alright.

I don't have any issue with other participants believing that Imam is Allah, at all, so long as they keep it personal and their belief alone. As soon as they imply that it's general belief of Ismaili, then it would be a mis-representation and dis-information.[/quote

And the same should apply to you right Tret?

The general principle and belief should be the common thread - "Ba'yah to the Imam of the Time"
and that the Imam interprets the Faith for us; beyond that - what one believes is one's personal matter.
To me - what you've been doing is essentially try to partition and eliminate plurality in the faith - by saying - I BELIEVE IN THIS - and THIS IS ISMAILISM - and everyone else is a radical.
Versus saying - this is what I believe- what do you believe? how can i understand it? and accepting that someone may not be able to adequately explain something that is beyond the intellect....or something that is entirely faith based...

Somehow you and Sheri have become judge and jury for what one is allowed to believe and remain an ismaili.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Well, did the present Imam nullify the above firman of his predecessor ?

Assuming the above Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's firman is authentic and the present Imam hasn't nullified it, then the firman is valid.

I don't think you want the present Imam to affirm all the past 48 Imams firmans.

What will come next ? that we shouldn't pay dasond because the present Imam hasn't affirmed it ?

Good observation. That's why I quoted what was approved by MHI about the concept of God. Please re-read what I posted, that concept of God has to be thought and understood according to Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. That in itself is a contradiction.

The quoted Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's was made when Media was quite advanced and must have been published by the Ismaili Authorities of that time.

To Shams,
is this firman published ?

This farman was published and is still valid - it hasn't been cancelled by the Imam.
It actually was published with the approval of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen.

Keep in mind the Imam's farmans are according to the needs of time and space...
We have a very valid example of Imam Ala Dhikr es Salaam and the declaration of Qiyamat ul Qiyamah - and the following Imams who instructed the Jamat to practise taqiyya and go back to practicing Shariat.

One also has to keep in mind the global audience that the Imam has in today's time.
We are here online discussing if the Imam is Allah; on an open forum - what would happen if He stood up and declared it publicly? What would happen to the Jamats in countries where the majority population doesn't view us with well intentions?
Forget a public speech - we're sharing Farmans - if the Imam issued a talikah tomorrow stating that He is God - trust me we wouldn't be able to keep our mouths shut either....
There are groups where the Imam makes very explicit farmans - and these are never shared - and as I type this - I am deciding that we have to make a conscious effort to keep discretion - for to me - we are probably going to have to practice more and more taqiya as the Imam becomes more and more a public figure.

Shams

[sheri]

Shams - What page is this farman on? I will be getting access to this firman book tomorrow for half an hour and would really like to find it. I don't know how to speak gujarati, so I don't want to waste too much time of the individual who is sharing this firman book with me. I would appreciate it if you can provide all the possible details, so it would be easier to find.

[ShamsB]

Ya Ali Madad To All,

I am duplicating this message from my other post.

This is a very complex thing. Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah by his grace, told us the basic belifs of ismailis. Since there are only two major sufi thoughts; jamali and jalali (do not know english translation). Huma ost (jamali), Huma az ost (jalali). Now in the old dua we said Ali See Allah, this means that Ali and Allah are one. Now these days we say Ali Ullah it means Ali is from Allah. In this concept the whole theory of the ismaili doctrine has changed. Thats why Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah graciously said "whatever is ruh" so we do not think about the physical body of the first Imam Ali. I am sorry i have very limited vocabulary in english so i cannot elaborate that much in english. Thanks

May Mowla Bless You All and Enlighten Your Soul.

Quoting this for the benefit of Sheri and Tret and A2786.
The quote from the Old Du'a - so I don't know where the claim that Ali is Allah was not quoted in the Du'a is coming from.

And we also proclaim Ali = Allah or the Imam = Allah - in the current Du'a.

Maybe if people actually read the threads? versus just posting willy nilly?

Shams

[ShamsB]

I agree with _thaillestlunatic_ that it means the same.

During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:

"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.

A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378

On this particular issue it says:

"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "

My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.

Here is more documentation for Sheri's benefit - since in one post - she quoted as the older Imam's farmans not being recorded correctly.

This was the 1956 mission conference - the notes are well documented and by a number of people.

Shams

[ShamsB]

I agree with _thaillestlunatic_ that it means the same.

During the first Ismaili Mission conference MSMS made the following remark on the issue:

"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested to add just one word in Dua, and then they said, everything is alright. I said what is that one word. • They said "Instead of Ali Allah' to say 'Ali-un-wali-Allah. So I said you better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You arc ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong.

A murid had an encounter with the late Imam and compiled an article about it which can be acceesed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ea3f65e378

On this particular issue it says:

"The first thing he (the Imam) had told me on his own was, when he was in my surgery in Nairobi, why he had recently modified the original Ismaili Kalma where the Kalma ended with words, “Amirulmominin Ali Sahi Allah” to “Amirulmominin Aliullah”. He told me that some leaders of the sister community had told him unofficially that if he modified the Kalma to “Aliyun Vali Allah”, they would all come into Ismailism. “Aliullah” was the most that he could accept. "

My interpretation of the issue is that "Ali Sahi Allah" is more definitive and categorical that Ali is indeed Allah. Ali Allah can be vague and hence provides the bridge for those who do not have the capacity to accept "Ali Sahi Allah" or are not too sure about it and want to confirm it through their own search.

Here is more documentation for Sheri's benefit - since in one post - she quoted as the older Imam's farmans not being recorded correctly.

This was the 1956 mission conference - the notes are well documented and by a number of people.
And the Imam did speak in English - your local ITREB should have these notes.
Shams

[agakhani]

Thanks Shams for good information which I never read before any where. THAT PROVE that-
'ALI IS THE SAHI(TRUE) ALLAH' not only for me but each and every Ismailis whether they believes that way or not, it is totally up to them!!. and there are many in this forum who do not believe that way, no needs to mention their names they know whom I talking about and you already posted their name above so that they will figure out!!

[sheri]

I don't care what Dr. Nathho said.

PLEASE PROVIDE PAGE NUMBER for the VADI JK FARMAN.

I would appreciate it. I am meeting the individual in a few hours.

[ShamsB]

I don't care what Dr. Nathho said.

PLEASE PROVIDE PAGE NUMBER for the VADI JK FARMAN.

I would appreciate it. I am meeting the individual in a few hours.

Are you even reading these?

There were 2 things mentioned in the post.

1. THIS WAS THE IMAM AT THE MISSION CONFERENCE.
2. Was dr. Nathoo.

You wanted the Imam to validate Ali=Allah - you have your proof.

Now it is upto you whether to accept or not - believe or not.

For me - this discussion is over - you wanted proof - you have it.
Now if you don't want to see the Sun at noon on a cloudless day on the equator...
Not something I or anyone can fix.

If you have decided not to believe Ali is Allah - then no amount of proof is going to convince you...and it seems you've decided to prove that Ali is not Allah - so..you'll keep going in these circles.

As I've stated - you are free to believe what you want to.


Shams

[sheri]

Shams. Why are you failing again to provide the PAGE NUMBER in Kalam-e-Mubin.

"The following is an article written by late Dr. Nathoo, who had many physical contacts with Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah."

There is no where a farman stating that Ali=Allah.

[ShamsB]

Shams. Why are you failing again to provide the PAGE NUMBER in Kalam-e-Mubin.

"The following is an article written by late Dr. Nathoo, who had many physical contacts with Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah."

There is no where a farman stating that Ali=Allah.

Because I don't have the page number memorized - that's why.

maybe you can ask the individual to look at all the Vadi farmans for you.

If you're serious - photocopy the book and have someone read it for you.

Also -
You're misquoting and not reading the entire post.

Read the top part of the post i've quoted - it refers to the MISSION CONFERENCE - not to DR. NATHOO - that is the second part.

Are you ignoring it -because it nullifies and invalidates you?

Because now you have the Imam on RECORD stating Ali=Allah and on top of that proving that you're a fraud - and a fake?
Coz you stated there was no Ali=Allah in the old Du'a - and here the Imam is saying it is there.
So once again - when i stated Ali=Allah is present in our dua today - you claimed that it wasn't there...are you sure? coz you were damn sure.

So once again - who are you? did you become Aql-e-Kul and know what the du'a means or the purpose or the inner meaning of the du'a? and whose interpretation is right or wrong?

Shams

[sheri]

And where is this document for the mission conference that you state to authenticate the validity of this statement?