Who are you to decide what is Islamic or Un Islamic? Do you not believe that God exists in every particle of universe. I thought I made it quite clear that Vishnu is not name of a person. Vishnu is attribute of God. Before commenting, get some knowledge.sheri wrote:There is no concept of Vishnu in Islam whatsoever. Give me one source, I ask for only one reliable source that links Vishnu to Adam.
star_munir wrote:The term Vishnu is used by Hindus for the attribute of God as a sustainer of the universe. According to Shamsu (one of the members of ismaili.net forum- he posted this information in forum) the word Vishwa means Universe and anu means atom so Vishnu means the one who exists in every atom or particle of this universe. The word Vishnu appears in Ginan also but not as a particular person that existed in past but for the Imam in general, whose light is spiritually present every where and all the time.
Dait kalinga
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
The term Dajjal is mentioned in Hadith. If you dont believe in Hadith than why do you believe in Quran? How you got Quran? Did not you get it through Prophet Muhammad? If you respect Quran than respect Hadith also. If you dont believe in certain Hadith that is alright but some thing which is mentioned in detailed in Hadith..you can not call that UnIslamic. Earlier I thought you were not believing in Ginans, but now it appears you dont believe in hadith as well. What Prophet declared at Gadir-e-Khaum is also not mentioned directly in Quran so will you deny that incident?sheri wrote:Dajjal is an interpretation that is floating around. It has not been confirmed by MHI. Furthermore, there is no mention of it in the Quran. Please provide any authentic reference to this claim that the concept of Dajjal is a Islamic concept (either a Farman or a ayat of the Quran).
star_munir wrote: The topic of discussion was on Ginanic term "Daet Kalingo". It is the Indian name of what in Islamic tradition is mentioned as "Dajjal". Now instead of saying "Sun" if you will say it "Suraj" so will that make any difference to Sun? Instead of the word "Dajjal" if some one uses the word "Daet Kalinga" so what is your problem? Both terms are identical. Why are you creating unnecessary controversies?
You are most welcome to follow your version of Islam but please dont claim that all others are wrong and only you are the judge to decide what is Islamic concept and what is UnIslamic....If you have some thing worthy to discuss about the topic than post, I will comment. Otherwise I will not like to waste time arguing with you. If you are not arguing for the sake of argument and genuinely want an answer than go and read Farmans...you will get enough Farmans on importance and credibility of Ginans.
It was the Holy Prophet who decided what is Islamic and Un-Islamic. MHI has always said he is a Muslim and he believes in the Holy Prophet. The revelations revealed to the Holy Prophet is the Quran. If the revelations revealed all the prior prophets like Jesus, Moses, Adam, then if Vishu was so critical to the Islamic concept are you are alluding to, then Allah would have also revealed Vishnu as a concept. There is not concept of Vishnu in the Quran or anywhere in Islam. Every muslim who has studied a little bit of Islamic history will know that Vishnu does not exist in Islam or any of the Abrahamic faiths. Please provide references for you relating the concept of Vishnu to Islam otherwise you are losing your credibility.star_munir wrote: Who are you to decide what is Islamic or Un Islamic? Do you not believe that God exists in every particle of universe. I thought I made it quite clear that Vishnu is not name of a person. Vishnu is attribute of God. Before commenting, get some knowledge.
Please refer to the Quran as defined by God and existing eternaly versus the Mushaf, the compilation which came to existence after the Prophet (PBUH) dies and much after Allah declared that he had perfected your religion. There are many posts on that subject. If you have not read them, you will confuse yourself with what you reffer as Quran, that is are you refering to the Eternal Quran or to the compilation by unauthorised people. Go to the debate on the subject, press the button search above.
There is always a debate in the Muslim community if a Hadith is authentic or not. But there is no issue of authenticity raised either by the Shia or the Sunni about the Quran. Hadith are not considered to be the "divine revelations" to the Holy Prophet. Only what is in the Quran is a divine revelation. So, I would rather believe in a divine revelation versus a Hadith who no one is certain if it is authentic or not. The concept of Daet Kalingo is a Hindu concept, there is no mention of it in the Quran and MHI has not made any reference to it.star_munir wrote: The term Dajjal is mentioned in Hadith. If you dont believe in Hadith than why do you believe in Quran? How you got Quran? Did not you get it through Prophet Muhammad? If you respect Quran than respect Hadith also. If you dont believe in certain Hadith that is alright but some thing which is mentioned in detailed in Hadith..you can not call that UnIslamic. Earlier I thought you were not believing in Ginans, but now it appears you dont believe in hadith as well. What Prophet declared at Gadir-e-Khaum is also not mentioned directly in Quran so will you deny that incident?
You are most welcome to follow your version of Islam but please dont claim that all others are wrong and only you are the judge to decide what is Islamic concept and what is UnIslamic....If you have some thing worthy to discuss about the topic than post, I will comment. Otherwise I will not like to waste time arguing with you. If you are not arguing for the sake of argument and genuinely want an answer than go and read Farmans...you will get enough Farmans on importance and credibility of Ginans.
MHI has said:
"The only miracle in Islam is the Quran." - Man Alive Interview with H.H. The Aga Khan IV.
Now you can infer from this that the Quran here is Mawla (the talking Quran). But that is an inference. In B&W Quran is the Holy Book.
Yes, you can raise questions and concerns about Quran's authenticity, but all the ayats in the dua are used from the Quran word by word. If MHI felt that these ayats lack authenticity then he would not have used these ayats word-by-word. Also, I have never heard a Hadith being recited in our jamti ceremonies.
Dua is derived from the Quran.
Hadith has never been used in Jamat Khana.
It is common sense which of the two you will give more weight.
"The only miracle in Islam is the Quran." - Man Alive Interview with H.H. The Aga Khan IV.
Now you can infer from this that the Quran here is Mawla (the talking Quran). But that is an inference. In B&W Quran is the Holy Book.
Yes, you can raise questions and concerns about Quran's authenticity, but all the ayats in the dua are used from the Quran word by word. If MHI felt that these ayats lack authenticity then he would not have used these ayats word-by-word. Also, I have never heard a Hadith being recited in our jamti ceremonies.
Dua is derived from the Quran.
Hadith has never been used in Jamat Khana.
It is common sense which of the two you will give more weight.
What you say Admin make sense. However, here's my take on it.Admin wrote:Please refer to the Quran as defined by God and existing eternaly versus the Mushaf, the compilation which came to existence after the Prophet (PBUH) dies and much after Allah declared that he had perfected your religion. There are many posts on that subject. If you have not read them, you will confuse yourself with what you reffer as Quran, that is are you refering to the Eternal Quran or to the compilation by unauthorised people. Go to the debate on the subject, press the button search above.
We know that our Du'a contains Suras from the Qur'an as we know it (Or better yet, as Muslims know it). We recite them daily, and there's no doubt, that we believe in them. It was prescribed by our Imam.
We also know that the Qur'an was compiled well after the Prophet. Now, authenticity of the Qur'an as we know it (the publishded), is really not our place to declare. I really think that we take a risk, in declaring that the current compiled Qur'an is un-authentic!
We have our Imam who interprets the Word of God (The Qur'an, however you want to consider it, the published or the eternal), according to Time and space when needed.
Obviously our Imam knows these sacred words and has incorporated them in our Dua and vaious ceremonies. it does not validate whatever is called Hadith/Quran/etc... surely there are in those sources a lot of authentic genuine material to be followed as interpreted by our Imam... That is for Ismailis.
As for the other ones, they are free to follow any of the thousands of interpretations with which they may be comfortable.
As for the other ones, they are free to follow any of the thousands of interpretations with which they may be comfortable.
I agree with you tret. I am very clueless how these Hindu concepts have made their way into Ismailism. Our religion has its foundation in Islam, and these concepts are not Islamic in any way.tret wrote:What amazes me is that some of our brothers are still so much interested in the history of hindi and I guess effort will be very well spent in understanding our own ismailie history.
Admin: the ismaili constitution clearly states "Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind." This makes the Quran authentic by definition of the ismaili constitution.Admin wrote:Obviously our Imam knows these sacred words and has incorporated them in our Dua and vaious ceremonies. it does not validate whatever is called Hadith/Quran/etc... surely there are in those sources a lot of authentic genuine material to be followed as interpreted by our Imam... That is for Ismailis.
As for the other ones, they are free to follow any of the thousands of interpretations with which they may be comfortable.
(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.
Admin brother, This is your opinion and understanding, and I respect that. Could you please back your stand up by providing any reference to any Farmaan or any other source?Admin wrote:Obviously our Imam knows these sacred words and has incorporated them in our Dua and vaious ceremonies. it does not validate whatever is called Hadith/Quran/etc... surely there are in those sources a lot of authentic genuine material to be followed as interpreted by our Imam... That is for Ismailis.
As for the other ones, they are free to follow any of the thousands of interpretations with which they may be comfortable.
Obviously, Imam DOES know the sacred words, not only that Imam DOES know the Tah'wil of the sacred Words. But, that's not the point. The point that I was making, was the Ayat that we recite is from the Qur'an. And in any case, It is not my place, or your place or anyone else's place to conclude that the Qur'an is not authentic.
Another thing, I think is worth mentioning is the Hadis of the Prophet that was mentioned at the Ghadir-e-Khum event, that HE would leave behind TWO weighty things. Apparently, the two weighty things are a)The zurya of Imamat (Imamat institution) and b)The Qur'an!
Every Shia (Not only Ismailie) believes in this Hadis!
Logically speaking, The Qur'an and The Imam (Imamat) are two entities, and one can't equate the Qur'an with the Imam. The same way that one can not equate the Imam with Allah.
To Sheri:Ya Ali Madad.
when you put a part of constitution or memiors ,pls put up two or three line
before n after that to know the full message.
1.when the memoirs of Imam SMS was supposed to be released,a Farman
was sent that book is not meant for Ismalis but different audience and and things said differently ( not total contradictorily.
I wish if Agakhani can repost that farman extract ,which he posted earlier in some topic.
we Ismailis have to follow farmans not the speeches or interview given by an Imam as Agakhan as world leader/statesman.
does the front cover memior has the IMAM before his name?.NO NO NO
it is just H.H Aga Khan SMS.
2.belief of christian as Jesus as biological son of God was contradicted
not a mention of his spiritual status.in the same book the word holt spirit is mentioned for thinking of great Dai,sufi n pirs.
it meant god does not make flesh bu souls.
deep reading is needed for it.
3.if there are may be 50 subsects in Shia.
At most Imam passing away stage n succession period.
there were traitor n shallow followers who got deserted by pointing out
not Farmans but general messages of the Imam in his activities ,
which portrayed him less than Imam and a normal being and left
following the traitor or not follow the next Imam in totality.
4.99.9 Ismailis do NOT NOT NOT care a dam for resolutions n articles of the Constitution to waver their faith on the Imam.
they all are also learned an have a mind of their own.
so you just trying misguide or fool the readers of the forum.
you are certifying yourlelf as greater fool,deserter n traitor.
Please do not mix up the resolution n wording of the constitution.
as same as Farman ( an absolute ordinance unless changed).
the phase of Jesus was of sixth level of haqiqat ( ALI was in baatin)
ant then the final n 7th phase of marifat where ALI become Zahir
in smiling radiant all flesh n blood to be seen n known.
when you put a part of constitution or memiors ,pls put up two or three line
before n after that to know the full message.
1.when the memoirs of Imam SMS was supposed to be released,a Farman
was sent that book is not meant for Ismalis but different audience and and things said differently ( not total contradictorily.
I wish if Agakhani can repost that farman extract ,which he posted earlier in some topic.
we Ismailis have to follow farmans not the speeches or interview given by an Imam as Agakhan as world leader/statesman.
does the front cover memior has the IMAM before his name?.NO NO NO
it is just H.H Aga Khan SMS.
2.belief of christian as Jesus as biological son of God was contradicted
not a mention of his spiritual status.in the same book the word holt spirit is mentioned for thinking of great Dai,sufi n pirs.
it meant god does not make flesh bu souls.
deep reading is needed for it.
3.if there are may be 50 subsects in Shia.
At most Imam passing away stage n succession period.
there were traitor n shallow followers who got deserted by pointing out
not Farmans but general messages of the Imam in his activities ,
which portrayed him less than Imam and a normal being and left
following the traitor or not follow the next Imam in totality.
4.99.9 Ismailis do NOT NOT NOT care a dam for resolutions n articles of the Constitution to waver their faith on the Imam.
they all are also learned an have a mind of their own.
so you just trying misguide or fool the readers of the forum.
you are certifying yourlelf as greater fool,deserter n traitor.
Please do not mix up the resolution n wording of the constitution.
as same as Farman ( an absolute ordinance unless changed).
the phase of Jesus was of sixth level of haqiqat ( ALI was in baatin)
ant then the final n 7th phase of marifat where ALI become Zahir
in smiling radiant all flesh n blood to be seen n known.
nuseri - why is MHI so adamant to please the Muslims and not the Hindus. The type of Ismailism that you are advocating for would easily be acceptable in India and as part of Hinduism. Ali = Vishnu = Allah.
Why would MHI put a cover on the tenants of Ismailism when he can easily gain acceptance in Hinduism. Why even bother with this whole pleasing muslim mumbo jumbo.
Why would MHI put a cover on the tenants of Ismailism when he can easily gain acceptance in Hinduism. Why even bother with this whole pleasing muslim mumbo jumbo.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
I think when you will read some thing about Hazrat Issa written by a Muslim writer you will issue verdict that that person is studying Christianity.sheri wrote:I agree with you tret. I am very clueless how these Hindu concepts have made their way into Ismailism. Our religion has its foundation in Islam, and these concepts are not Islamic in any way.tret wrote:What amazes me is that some of our brothers are still so much interested in the history of hindi and I guess effort will be very well spent in understanding our own ismailie history.
Please think out of box and don't narrow your thinking.
Why dont you understand that the religion existed even before Prophet Mohammad.
Search from internet and to your surprise you will find Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad in the scriptures of Zoroastrians, Buddhism and Hinduism etc.
Even the epic tale of Mesapotamian civilization which is called as "Gilgamesh" some how resembles with the story of great flood as mentioned in Quran and Bible.
Think about religion in broader sense and don't narrow your thinking.
You keep saying about Imam and Quran...just go and read Memoirs of Aga Khan, where Imam has mentioned the name of Raam, Krishna and Buddha as divinely inspired messengers and see the title of the chapter "Islam the religion of my ancestors". Now answer me, if Imam is introducing Islam as the religion of His ancestors so why did He mention the names of Raam and Krishna? For you it may be Hinduism but for those who are using intellect, it is Islam. Now Memoirs of Aga Khan was not written for Khojas but for all.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Please use a little common sense and think about it if you really can.sheri wrote:nuseri - why is MHI so adamant to please the Muslims and not the Hindus. The type of Ismailism that you are advocating for would easily be acceptable in India and as part of Hinduism. Ali = Vishnu = Allah.
Why would MHI put a cover on the tenants of Ismailism when he can easily gain acceptance in Hinduism. Why even bother with this whole pleasing muslim mumbo jumbo.
Vishnu is an attribute meaning the one who is existing in every particle of Universe.
Muslims, Christians, Jews infact all believe that God exists every where. Do you not believe so?
so why are you shouting and creating unnecessary controversies?
Have I not explained you this earlier that Vishnu was not grandfather of Hazrat Ibrahim? Out of your ignorance and lack of information, please don't create unnecessary controversies. Learn about the topic before you make any comment. Don't spread rumors.
Vishnu is the Supreme God of Vaishnavism, one of the three main sects of Hinduism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu
Provide references. Without references your word has no credibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu
Provide references. Without references your word has no credibility.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As a Shia you believe that Prophet Muhammad announced Imamat of Hazrat Ali at Gadeer-e-Khaum and asked people to believe him as his successor. Where is this mentioned in Quran.sheri wrote:There is always a debate in the Muslim community if a Hadith is authentic or not. But there is no issue of authenticity raised either by the Shia or the Sunni about the Quran. Hadith are not considered to be the "divine revelations" to the Holy Prophet. Only what is in the Quran is a divine revelation. So, I would rather believe in a divine revelation versus a Hadith who no one is certain if it is authentic or not. The concept of Daet Kalingo is a Hindu concept, there is no mention of it in the Quran and MHI has not made any reference to it.star_munir wrote: The term Dajjal is mentioned in Hadith. If you dont believe in Hadith than why do you believe in Quran? How you got Quran? Did not you get it through Prophet Muhammad? If you respect Quran than respect Hadith also. If you dont believe in certain Hadith that is alright but some thing which is mentioned in detailed in Hadith..you can not call that UnIslamic. Earlier I thought you were not believing in Ginans, but now it appears you dont believe in hadith as well. What Prophet declared at Gadir-e-Khaum is also not mentioned directly in Quran so will you deny that incident?
You are most welcome to follow your version of Islam but please dont claim that all others are wrong and only you are the judge to decide what is Islamic concept and what is UnIslamic....If you have some thing worthy to discuss about the topic than post, I will comment. Otherwise I will not like to waste time arguing with you. If you are not arguing for the sake of argument and genuinely want an answer than go and read Farmans...you will get enough Farmans on importance and credibility of Ginans.
If you can't show me any ayat from Quran that tells to believe Hazrat Ali as first Imam and give reference of Hadith than why do you have problem accepting the hadith which mention about Dajjal.
If you don't believe it to be true, why do you give your fatwa as this concept is Un-Islamic.
After Quran, Hadith is considered as important source of Islam. You may ask any Muslim scholar for that. The Quran, which you claim to follow also ask believers to follow Prophet Muhammad. How can you follow Prophet if you dont give any importance to what he said.
For us the message of Hadith and Quran is interpreted in Ginans and Farmans. You dont have any right to declare unIslamic
"In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law"
So, in one instance you are saying that Holy prophet appointed Ali to be the successor. But then you are saying that God manifested in Ali.
If Holy Prophet appointed Ali as successor and Ali=Allah, then Holy Prophet = Allah.
If Ali = Allah, then Holy prophet saying "Of whomsoever I had been Master (Mawla), Ali here is to be his Master." makes Holy Prophet = Allah.
Do you see the contradiction?
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
So, in one instance you are saying that Holy prophet appointed Ali to be the successor. But then you are saying that God manifested in Ali.
If Holy Prophet appointed Ali as successor and Ali=Allah, then Holy Prophet = Allah.
If Ali = Allah, then Holy prophet saying "Of whomsoever I had been Master (Mawla), Ali here is to be his Master." makes Holy Prophet = Allah.
Do you see the contradiction?
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
To Sheri;Ya Ali Madad.
You have bichty way of putting up your point.
i.e if a is related to B
and B is related to C
then definatly A is related to C
and A is same as C.
cut this crap out.
Both prophet hood And Imam E mubin is mentioned in Quran as separate
entity.
Rasul as deliverer of Quran and Imam e Mubin equated to/as Quran
If a retiring manager introduces a new manager to the staff and say
that the new manager will same as my status of manager I was/am of yours.
It does not mean there two authorities managing.
Nor the word or the name of the Boss,the owner of the company does become two bosses even if there two managers for while till the retirement of the first manager happens.
Eveyrbody know what dirty style you are upto.
In regard to constitution:
I have asked where in Constitution sub para the word 'Mazhar' is mentioned?
In a university with a campus .
It has set up rules governing most aspect relating education,campus ethics and other rules.
The students to enter the college has to abide by the rules.
He has come to learn medicine, law,management from the faculty( pirs,dai.sufi)
and syllabus of the college to be earning or something in Life.
The rules or university( read constitutions) does not make him a doctor.Lawyer, consultant etc.It is teaching of the faculties.
Here you have bitch standing at the campus gate and barking that
rules are only to be learned and not education material.
i am sure university must have kicked that Bitch for studying lesson n attending classes.must have beeb sent to shrink to drain out rule book from her shit mind.
Admin does allow animals in the Forum.
Even Imam SMS has said to ignore braying n barking of Zahiris.
Admin still does not know what you are upto? I feel he the biggest XXX hole of the forum in it's conduct.
To Agakhani: from forensic writing view. Sheri n Tret are not the same.
Tret looks many time more intelligent than Her.
Is there any clause how an Ismaili is kicked out of of our religion/faith.?
.
You have bichty way of putting up your point.
i.e if a is related to B
and B is related to C
then definatly A is related to C
and A is same as C.
cut this crap out.
Both prophet hood And Imam E mubin is mentioned in Quran as separate
entity.
Rasul as deliverer of Quran and Imam e Mubin equated to/as Quran
If a retiring manager introduces a new manager to the staff and say
that the new manager will same as my status of manager I was/am of yours.
It does not mean there two authorities managing.
Nor the word or the name of the Boss,the owner of the company does become two bosses even if there two managers for while till the retirement of the first manager happens.
Eveyrbody know what dirty style you are upto.
In regard to constitution:
I have asked where in Constitution sub para the word 'Mazhar' is mentioned?
In a university with a campus .
It has set up rules governing most aspect relating education,campus ethics and other rules.
The students to enter the college has to abide by the rules.
He has come to learn medicine, law,management from the faculty( pirs,dai.sufi)
and syllabus of the college to be earning or something in Life.
The rules or university( read constitutions) does not make him a doctor.Lawyer, consultant etc.It is teaching of the faculties.
Here you have bitch standing at the campus gate and barking that
rules are only to be learned and not education material.
i am sure university must have kicked that Bitch for studying lesson n attending classes.must have beeb sent to shrink to drain out rule book from her shit mind.
Admin does allow animals in the Forum.
Even Imam SMS has said to ignore braying n barking of Zahiris.
Admin still does not know what you are upto? I feel he the biggest XXX hole of the forum in it's conduct.
To Agakhani: from forensic writing view. Sheri n Tret are not the same.
Tret looks many time more intelligent than Her.
Is there any clause how an Ismaili is kicked out of of our religion/faith.?
.
I hope you can take the time to read these two articles of the constitution. They clearly explain our beliefs - you have to open your mind and put your preconceived notions aside to digest something that differs from what your mind tricked you to believe in. These are the written beliefs. Anything other than this is just your interpretation and my interpretation.
Recognition by the IMAM of the book "Holy Quran":
"Islam, as revealed in the "Holy Quran", is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal."
Recognition of the role of the IMAM:
"Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali, to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids,"
(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
Recognition by the IMAM of the book "Holy Quran":
"Islam, as revealed in the "Holy Quran", is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal."
Recognition of the role of the IMAM:
"Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali, to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids,"
(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
sheri wrote:I hope you can take the time to read these two articles of the constitution. They clearly explain our beliefs - you have to open your mind and put your preconceived notions aside to digest something that differs from what your mind tricked you to believe in. These are the written beliefs. Anything other than this is just your interpretation and my interpretation.
Recognition by the IMAM of the book "Holy Quran":
"Islam, as revealed in the "Holy Quran", is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal."
Recognition of the role of the IMAM:
"Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali, to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids,"
(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).
Beautiful!
I would highlight the word Tawhid, which, I believe, is very important for every Muslim to be understood and to be believed which is the very backbone and principal of not only Muslim and Ismailie faith, but the Ibrahimic faiths as well; and that's what MHI exactly has approved the concept of God to be thought and understood, according to Surah Ikhlas, which is about the Tawhid.
This is one of the excerpt of Farmaan of MHI, quoting Nasir-e-Khusraw's, Hujjat-e-Ahzam of his time, about knowledge.
"In the ebb and flow of history, "knowledge is a shield against the blows of time". It dispels "the torment of ignorance" and nourishes "peace to blossom forth in the soul"."(Aga Khan IV quoting Nasir Khusraw, Dushanbe, Tajikistan, August 30, 2003)
Another reference to "Universal Soul" by Maulana Sultan Muhammad Shah in Hid Memoir.
"Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created. Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universe is, as much of it as we perceive with our limited visions, one of the infinite manifestations. Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain"(Memoirs of Aga Khan III, 1954)
to sherry:Ya Ali madad.
you are once again at your shit head output.
you are re posting defining the Imam.
His tawil n talim are arabic word to complement word as per Quran n Hadith.
For us the tawil n talim from HIM
is his FARMAN FARMAN FARMAN to FOLLOW.
(speeches in interview given as Aga Khan a personality to be acknlowledged n respected and NOT FOLLOW)
so if you wish please put extract of farman and go ahead n debate on it.
do no keep posting what defines what from constitution.
articles of CNST are NOT read out for faith n direction,but Farman farmans n Farman are read out few times daily.
Where is 'Mazhar' word in the Consitution ,page no, paragraph number please?
what is the rider 'Tawhid' in the constitution.
It is Baatin or joining of two physical bodies in flesh etc etc.
there is kalima as affirmation in ummah as Muslims in the constitution.
and our REAL KALIMA as Ordered to recited daily Kalima of Conviction/inspiration .
what is a cosmetic presentation of the CNSTN is different on face value
of what we practice as our faith daily.
the Kalima said DAILY holds over EACH N EVERY ISMAILI beyond the simple affirmation of Shahada.
it is like stating
we all have a car in public to be recognized as Car owner.
But how drive the car n route we take is the Tawil n talim that
is Farman.
so do not get carried by half kalima /shahada worded in the constitution
what rider of what is immediately is attached to it make the reading
proper n fit.
if you want just to post the legal point of a document,then GET a sharp attorney to explain you what word,word,co related word n phrasing of the sentence mean.
YOU ARE STILL BARKING AS THE UNIVERSITY GATE.
Bitch van is round the corner .
you are once again at your shit head output.
you are re posting defining the Imam.
His tawil n talim are arabic word to complement word as per Quran n Hadith.
For us the tawil n talim from HIM
is his FARMAN FARMAN FARMAN to FOLLOW.
(speeches in interview given as Aga Khan a personality to be acknlowledged n respected and NOT FOLLOW)
so if you wish please put extract of farman and go ahead n debate on it.
do no keep posting what defines what from constitution.
articles of CNST are NOT read out for faith n direction,but Farman farmans n Farman are read out few times daily.
Where is 'Mazhar' word in the Consitution ,page no, paragraph number please?
what is the rider 'Tawhid' in the constitution.
It is Baatin or joining of two physical bodies in flesh etc etc.
there is kalima as affirmation in ummah as Muslims in the constitution.
and our REAL KALIMA as Ordered to recited daily Kalima of Conviction/inspiration .
what is a cosmetic presentation of the CNSTN is different on face value
of what we practice as our faith daily.
the Kalima said DAILY holds over EACH N EVERY ISMAILI beyond the simple affirmation of Shahada.
it is like stating
we all have a car in public to be recognized as Car owner.
But how drive the car n route we take is the Tawil n talim that
is Farman.
so do not get carried by half kalima /shahada worded in the constitution
what rider of what is immediately is attached to it make the reading
proper n fit.
if you want just to post the legal point of a document,then GET a sharp attorney to explain you what word,word,co related word n phrasing of the sentence mean.
YOU ARE STILL BARKING AS THE UNIVERSITY GATE.
Bitch van is round the corner .
Just a couple of observations.
I have listened few times the speech that Maulana Hazir Imam gave this year, addressing Canadian Parliament. And I find guidnace, truth, and inspiration. It wasn't a Farmaan to Ismailies, but I believe it was a guidance to entire humanaity! So, should we now say that we just don't care and not listen to what MHI says at his public speeches?
Another example is the interview of MHI at MDTV, walk the talk with the Aga Khan. You can again, find truth, guidance and advise in the speeches of MHI. Again, should we not listen and discard what MHI says in public?
I think MHI speaks the truth all the time. Even when speaking in public!
Ismaili Constitution is the foundation of Ismailie Tariqa and Faith! I don't believe we should take it lightly!
If you mean by "Ash-hadu-anah Ali-un-Amir-ul-Mu'mineen Ali-Ullah", that the bold part implies that ALI is ALLAH, I guess it's not correct.
Ali-Ullah means "Ali is from Allah" = Ali of Allah
Same as Muhammad Rasul-Ullah = Messanger of Allah
I would differ on this.nuseri wrote: (speeches in interview given as Aga Khan a personality to be acknlowledged n respected and NOT FOLLOW)
I have listened few times the speech that Maulana Hazir Imam gave this year, addressing Canadian Parliament. And I find guidnace, truth, and inspiration. It wasn't a Farmaan to Ismailies, but I believe it was a guidance to entire humanaity! So, should we now say that we just don't care and not listen to what MHI says at his public speeches?
Another example is the interview of MHI at MDTV, walk the talk with the Aga Khan. You can again, find truth, guidance and advise in the speeches of MHI. Again, should we not listen and discard what MHI says in public?
I think MHI speaks the truth all the time. Even when speaking in public!
Ismaili Constitution is the foundation of Ismailie Tariqa and Faith! I don't believe we should take it lightly!
This question of our Shahada arise earlier, but the discussion diverted. I would like to talk about this. Please can you elaborate where in the out Kalima Shahada implies that ALI (IMAM) is ALLAH?nuseri wrote: the Kalima said DAILY holds over EACH N EVERY ISMAILI beyond the simple affirmation of Shahada.
If you mean by "Ash-hadu-anah Ali-un-Amir-ul-Mu'mineen Ali-Ullah", that the bold part implies that ALI is ALLAH, I guess it's not correct.
Ali-Ullah means "Ali is from Allah" = Ali of Allah
Same as Muhammad Rasul-Ullah = Messanger of Allah
it is Mohammed is rasool of Allah
and ALI is Allah.
'U' is co joined word.
it is again at varing level,read the resolution.
It was Ali Allah first till lately.
Due to pressure on Imam SMS by leaders in Africa that is was annoying
sunnis to the hilt , a tweaking was was to put the word 'U'
again to satisfy the devils n monkies.
again the scare puppy leaders came with the word Mazhar to please
the audience.
few have said ALI is exhalated of ALLah.
what does than mean?
what does the word 'Exhalated' means?
for me ALI was at the creation then came the words and names of God of religions even hindu ones.
The word 'Allah 'was veri veri veri intelligently conceived was given on earth even before Quran.
Scholars may find that this word was in verbatim from H.Abrahims time.
so it was ' ALI' was and Nothing (Lah) existed.Add the two,NO Rocket science here.
ALI being divine intellect had to choose a name which veiled him as well
also said the truth.
for me it is not Ali Allah.
a higher level varing inspiration.( Haqiqatis are stuck at that station)
But still futher is
Ali+lah= Allah.
with me it is a relationship of oneness(tawhid) n not two/three or four.
and getting screwed up defending that daily.
It is same as assuming mirror/still water to see image of the REAL.
There was no still water or mirror in the first placed it was veil over the eyes/heart of unbelievers.
word such as veil over eyes,raised blind again,unseen can be heard
in many Ayats of Koran.
Sit in Ibaadat daily to remove veil and SEE and FEEL the real.
otherwise it all screwball data picked from the books
n not the divine Intellect.
Do you believe in sermon of Qayama of Imam Allaii Zikr Salam stated from persian doctine n material?
and ALI is Allah.
'U' is co joined word.
it is again at varing level,read the resolution.
It was Ali Allah first till lately.
Due to pressure on Imam SMS by leaders in Africa that is was annoying
sunnis to the hilt , a tweaking was was to put the word 'U'
again to satisfy the devils n monkies.
again the scare puppy leaders came with the word Mazhar to please
the audience.
few have said ALI is exhalated of ALLah.
what does than mean?
what does the word 'Exhalated' means?
for me ALI was at the creation then came the words and names of God of religions even hindu ones.
The word 'Allah 'was veri veri veri intelligently conceived was given on earth even before Quran.
Scholars may find that this word was in verbatim from H.Abrahims time.
so it was ' ALI' was and Nothing (Lah) existed.Add the two,NO Rocket science here.
ALI being divine intellect had to choose a name which veiled him as well
also said the truth.
for me it is not Ali Allah.
a higher level varing inspiration.( Haqiqatis are stuck at that station)
But still futher is
Ali+lah= Allah.
with me it is a relationship of oneness(tawhid) n not two/three or four.
and getting screwed up defending that daily.
It is same as assuming mirror/still water to see image of the REAL.
There was no still water or mirror in the first placed it was veil over the eyes/heart of unbelievers.
word such as veil over eyes,raised blind again,unseen can be heard
in many Ayats of Koran.
Sit in Ibaadat daily to remove veil and SEE and FEEL the real.
otherwise it all screwball data picked from the books
n not the divine Intellect.
Do you believe in sermon of Qayama of Imam Allaii Zikr Salam stated from persian doctine n material?
Actually, the origin of word Ali and Allah are both Arabic, so there's no 'U' or 'A', it's the best we can spell, given how you pronounce it. As follow.
علی الله=Ali-Ullah (Or Ali-Allah)
رسول الله=Rasul-Ullah (Or Rasul-Allah)
About your following assertion, I concure. I have been always trying to explain this.
According to my understanding, there's alwasy ranks in the spiritual realm as well as world of faith, and even in the material world.
In spiritual world the ranks are, for example The Allah, The Universal Intellect, The Universal Soul, Jadd, Fath, Khyal.
In the World of Faith the ranks are, The Prophet, The Imam, The Hujjat, and etc...
In the material world, we see the ranks in different aspects of life, government (president), principal, head master, teacher, students, etc...
But, when we say Tawhid, it's the oneness of the Allah.
Again, according to my understanding.
Allah incompasses all things, the universe, time and space and everything in it.
Essense of God is God's Will/Command of God/Amr of God, which existed all the time. It's the Will of God that creates and creation is a continous perpetuation.
Universal Intellect is also called Nur of Imamat, which is the FIRST creation, or the beginning of the origination which is the divine Intellect.
Universal Soul is the creation of the Universal Intellect, which is Potentially Perfect. To actualize ITself, it generates movements which causes the Universe as we know it to exist.
The universe is not only the animation that we see, feel -- however that's part of it -- but the very essential part of the universe is the Soul of human. Or individual soul. The individual soul needs to be saved. However, the intellect doesn't need saving.
Individual soul can get purified, by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the divine on earth, which according to us(Ismailies) is the Imam of the Time.
I am not sure the word 'Mazhar' is used in any of the Farameen Mubarak by the Imams; but the word 'Manifestation' for sure has been used. We need to focus on the word 'Manifestation' instead and to see in which context it has been used. If come accross a Farmaan, in which the context is relevant, I will surely share.
You touched a very very important point, which must be one of the last stages on the journey of wayfaring. Ibadat/Love.
Without Love, no matter how much knowledge you gain, would be completely useless! But, the preceeding stage [or valley] is haqiqat. To know the truth and reality!
I'd really recommend the work of Att'ar Naishapuri [The conference of Birds]. It describes the path to mahrifat, between birds; how they must traverse the 7 valleys. It believe it can be very inspirational and added value for sure. Thank you for your patience and participation.
By no means, I don't want to impose my understandings and beliefs on anyone. Everyone's welcome to differ or agree or explore. And let's enjoy the beauty of the pluralism. Thanks and Ya Ali.
علی الله=Ali-Ullah (Or Ali-Allah)
رسول الله=Rasul-Ullah (Or Rasul-Allah)
About your following assertion, I concure. I have been always trying to explain this.
The world Allah, apparently was selected after. Even the Qur'an text (The Ayats) are selected using man's languages. The Ayats of Qur'an are the best representation of the Divine message, as symboles.nuseri wrote: for me ALI was at the creation then came the words and names of God of religions even hindu ones.
According to my understanding, there's alwasy ranks in the spiritual realm as well as world of faith, and even in the material world.
In spiritual world the ranks are, for example The Allah, The Universal Intellect, The Universal Soul, Jadd, Fath, Khyal.
In the World of Faith the ranks are, The Prophet, The Imam, The Hujjat, and etc...
In the material world, we see the ranks in different aspects of life, government (president), principal, head master, teacher, students, etc...
But, when we say Tawhid, it's the oneness of the Allah.
Again, according to my understanding.
Allah incompasses all things, the universe, time and space and everything in it.
Essense of God is God's Will/Command of God/Amr of God, which existed all the time. It's the Will of God that creates and creation is a continous perpetuation.
Universal Intellect is also called Nur of Imamat, which is the FIRST creation, or the beginning of the origination which is the divine Intellect.
Universal Soul is the creation of the Universal Intellect, which is Potentially Perfect. To actualize ITself, it generates movements which causes the Universe as we know it to exist.
The universe is not only the animation that we see, feel -- however that's part of it -- but the very essential part of the universe is the Soul of human. Or individual soul. The individual soul needs to be saved. However, the intellect doesn't need saving.
Individual soul can get purified, by receiving knowledge of Tawhid from the divine on earth, which according to us(Ismailies) is the Imam of the Time.
I am not sure the word 'Mazhar' is used in any of the Farameen Mubarak by the Imams; but the word 'Manifestation' for sure has been used. We need to focus on the word 'Manifestation' instead and to see in which context it has been used. If come accross a Farmaan, in which the context is relevant, I will surely share.
You touched a very very important point, which must be one of the last stages on the journey of wayfaring. Ibadat/Love.
Without Love, no matter how much knowledge you gain, would be completely useless! But, the preceeding stage [or valley] is haqiqat. To know the truth and reality!
I'd really recommend the work of Att'ar Naishapuri [The conference of Birds]. It describes the path to mahrifat, between birds; how they must traverse the 7 valleys. It believe it can be very inspirational and added value for sure. Thank you for your patience and participation.
By no means, I don't want to impose my understandings and beliefs on anyone. Everyone's welcome to differ or agree or explore. And let's enjoy the beauty of the pluralism. Thanks and Ya Ali.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
To Sheri:
I would request you not to jump on so many topics at the same time, otherwise it would be difficult to carry discussion.
First your argument was on Dajjal, second was on Vishnu and now you have jumped into another topic of Divinity of Imam...
I would not like to comment on any thing unless you don't answer my two questions which I asked you earlier:
1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?
2) You have given a link which mentions Vishnu as one the Gods of Hindu. okay now search about Raam and Krishna, you will find similar answer for sure. Now why did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has mention the name of Raam and Krishna as Divinely inspired messenger when He is introducing "Islam as the religion of his ancestors" to the world. Search from internet, you will find Raam and Krishna as forms of Vishnu. Now will you accept Raam and Krishna as divinely inspired messenger as it is stated by Imam in Memoirs of Aga khan?
I would request you not to jump on so many topics at the same time, otherwise it would be difficult to carry discussion.
First your argument was on Dajjal, second was on Vishnu and now you have jumped into another topic of Divinity of Imam...
I would not like to comment on any thing unless you don't answer my two questions which I asked you earlier:
1) In Quran is there any ayat that tell you that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam or He is successor of Prophet so must be followed. If not, so why do you believe that? If you say that it is mentioned in Hadith. So why can you say that the topic of Dajal or Daet Kalingo which is in Hadith is Un Islamic, although it is mentioned in Hadith books. Is it that whatever Hadith you like are Islamic and what you don't like UnIslamic?
2) You have given a link which mentions Vishnu as one the Gods of Hindu. okay now search about Raam and Krishna, you will find similar answer for sure. Now why did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah has mention the name of Raam and Krishna as Divinely inspired messenger when He is introducing "Islam as the religion of his ancestors" to the world. Search from internet, you will find Raam and Krishna as forms of Vishnu. Now will you accept Raam and Krishna as divinely inspired messenger as it is stated by Imam in Memoirs of Aga khan?