Well explain Admin but this is for those peoples who are come to learn something in this forum but not for SISTER ZZNOOR , she is not coming in this website to learn something but to give " TASALLEE"courage to herself that she has taken right step in her conversion but her subconscious mind do not agree with that so, she will keep coming, whether you prove her wrong hundred times or not, USKE PAS AB LAAJ SHARMA NAHI RAHI.So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.
At the end of each debate there is an outcome for everyone. There is supposed to be a winner and a loser. That's why debates never end, because no one wants to be in the loser category! That's why everyone in this forum is trying so hard to convince other party, because everyone's debating. I sometimes too, feel this that I am trying sometimes to convince other party. But, later I question my self, what's the point?agakhani wrote:Well explain Admin but this is for those peoples who are come to learn something in this forum but not for SISTER ZZNOOR , she is not coming in this website to learn something but to give " TASALLEE"courage to herself that she has taken right step in her conversion but her subconscious mind do not agree with that so, she will keep coming, whether you prove her wrong hundred times or not, USKE PAS AB LAAJ SHARMA NAHI RAHI.So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
So, the real question is why are we trying so hard to convince other party? Even sometimes get too emotional and start naming and labeling people.
On the other hand, a discussion is more constructive and both parties are open minded and welling to listen and be mindful of the ideas that are being discussed. That's why discussions are healthy where debates are destructive.
Now, it all depends on the intention of both sides, whether one wants to have a debate? or a discussion? it appears that everyone is having a debate and by human nature, no one wants to be the loser!
Sometimes, it's best to just let it be!
How about this brother
This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayer are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
Ever wonder why Khalif Ali order when to pray 5 Salat?
This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayer are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
Ever wonder why Khalif Ali order when to pray 5 Salat?
The situation with zznoor is hopeless. There are those who are trying to show her the ski and she is stuck into looking at the grass and when shown the moon, she looks at the finger.
Now at some point we have to recognise there is repetition of the same thing by everyone again and again without creating more knowledge. So this debate will be closed very soon.
Now at some point we have to recognise there is repetition of the same thing by everyone again and again without creating more knowledge. So this debate will be closed very soon.
oh i am not trying to convince her that she's wrong - i am trying to educate her that there are more than one interpretation of the Quran.tret wrote:At the end of each debate there is an outcome for everyone. There is supposed to be a winner and a loser. That's why debates never end, because no one wants to be in the loser category! That's why everyone in this forum is trying so hard to convince other party, because everyone's debating. I sometimes too, feel this that I am trying sometimes to convince other party. But, later I question my self, what's the point?agakhani wrote:Well explain Admin but this is for those peoples who are come to learn something in this forum but not for SISTER ZZNOOR , she is not coming in this website to learn something but to give " TASALLEE"courage to herself that she has taken right step in her conversion but her subconscious mind do not agree with that so, she will keep coming, whether you prove her wrong hundred times or not, USKE PAS AB LAAJ SHARMA NAHI RAHI.So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
So, the real question is why are we trying so hard to convince other party? Even sometimes get too emotional and start naming and labeling people.
On the other hand, a discussion is more constructive and both parties are open minded and welling to listen and be mindful of the ideas that are being discussed. That's why discussions are healthy where debates are destructive.
Now, it all depends on the intention of both sides, whether one wants to have a debate? or a discussion? it appears that everyone is having a debate and by human nature, no one wants to be the loser!
Sometimes, it's best to just let it be!
What she doesn't realize is that to the Taliban and the Wahhabis - her interpretation is totally wrong - and these are people that LITERALLY follow the Quran and STICK to what their interpretation says.
Shams
So are you admitting to follow Ali over the Quran?zznoor wrote:How about this brother
This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayer are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
Ever wonder why Khalif Ali order when to pray 5 Salat?
Are you admitting and accepting that the Quran doesn't have any injunction for the 5x prayer?
A discussion/debate can only be had on a common platform/ground.
Your claim was we didn't follow the Quran - and we proved that infact it was you that was in error and not following whilst we were.
And now if you bring Ali into the mix - does it mean you're admitting that Ali was the Imam? and the successor to the Prophet?
Are you admitting that your interpretation of the Quran is wrong?
Careful how you answer this...because ...Ali was the Imam of that Time.
Shah Karim is the Imam of this time - and we follow the Imam of the Time; as he is our Rasikun Fil Ilm (read sura 3:7) as I've posted before -
For us only the Imam of the time can interpret the Quran based on the time and place.
FYI - Najhul Balagha is a general Shi'a text - it is a letter to the governors - not instructions to the Ismailies or followers - it was addressed to Sunnis as well as Shias.
Keep in mind that our Imams even when in power - unlike the Sunnis never forced our practices down other people's throats (kinda like you're attempting to do).
zznoor - you've lost this battle - from all counts - you've abandoned using the Quran to make your point - because I think you've come to the realization (and you don't want to admit it) that the Islam you practice as much as you'd like to think is based on the Quran - is not and we've proved it over and over and over again - that you're basing your faith on an individual's interpretation of the Quran - and in your case - multiple interpretations.
You still haven't told us what school of Jurisprudence you follow...
what Imam do you follow?..
I suspect it is because you don't follow any one Sunni Imam - but rather do a hodge podge with what suits your need - which btw - is against general Sunni Principles - you have to belong to a school of thought - and if you tell me - that oh - i can do what i please - than that rule should apply to us as well don't you think?
btw - you used the word "buniyad" in one of your posts as a word the prophet used - um - i wasn't aware the Prophet wrote or spoke Urdu or Hindi - so once again - you're using another interpretation of what he's supposed to have said...which maybe a gross fabrication....
Once again - study what you've chosen to follow - understand what you are practising and what it's based on and internalize and be prepared to have an intellectual debate about it...
you are more keen on copy/pasting - thinking we'll laud you for your knowledge etc...you are following without understanding - and you've proven your understanding to be very superficial and shallow - in a sense you're buying whatever the books tell you - even if the books are wrong.
i think you expected to come on this website and come across dumb ismailies like yourself in the past that you could brainwash and come across to your way of thinking
I think you are aghast at the rate we've been able to destroy your arguement over and over and over again..
and nowhere did we tell you not to continue your practice or judge your interpretation like you tried to do to us
To the contrary - our argument has always been Quran inspired...
to you yours - to me mine.
Let Allah Judge on the day of judgement.
My Pir/Imam Mustawda will stand up and speak for me. Who will speak for you?
You don't have to answer that...
All i say is - go in peace and find peace in your faith - if you practice acceptance and non judgement - you will find people that will reciprocate.
Shams
So Hazrat Ali issued a Fatwa - kinda like the turkish govt?zznoor wrote:How about this brother
This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayer are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
Ever wonder why Khalif Ali order when to pray 5 Salat?
urkey: Fatwa allows Muslims to pray just three times a day
Ankara, 10 Oct. (AKI) - Turkish Muslims will be allowed to pray only three times a day from Wednesday instead of the usual five - without fear of committing a sin.
A member of the scientific council of Istanbul University, Muhammad Nour Dughan, has issued a controversial fatwa or religious edict cutting Islamic prayer requirements from five to three times a day.
The move has provoked widespread debate as well as opposition from orthodox imams or Muslim clerics.
Sharia law allows for the possibility of praying three times a day in case of sickness or travel.
The fatwa extends this option allowing Muslims to pray three times a day, especially when they are heavily committed with work or personal issues.
The Turkish debate echoes a similar one that has already taken place in Egypt where the fatwa has also drawn support.
Jamal al-Banna, brother of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hasan al-Banna, endorsed the Turkish move.
"Merging prayers has become a modern necessity," he told the al-Arabiya website. "In most cases, people do not always perform the five prayers on time due to the pressures of modern life."
www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/ ... 1409142549
Shams
ShamsB wrote:
oh i am not trying to convince her that she's wrong - i am trying to educate her that there are more than one interpretation of the Quran.
What she doesn't realize is that to the Taliban and the Wahhabis - her interpretation is totally wrong - and these are people that LITERALLY follow the Quran and STICK to what their interpretation says.
Shams
I see. Like they say: You can take horse to the water, but you can't make her drink. You know what I mean?
Yup - but if you block their nostrils - they have to open their mouth to breathtret wrote:ShamsB wrote:
oh i am not trying to convince her that she's wrong - i am trying to educate her that there are more than one interpretation of the Quran.
What she doesn't realize is that to the Taliban and the Wahhabis - her interpretation is totally wrong - and these are people that LITERALLY follow the Quran and STICK to what their interpretation says.
Shams
I see. Like they say: You can take horse to the water, but you can't make her drink. You know what I mean?
maybe then they will swallow some water 
.Shams
To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
The word Elijah is used for a prophet of the past before Jesus,see wikipedia.
The word said by Jesus was ELI ELI,which was said not in Greek but in Hebrew/Aramic dialect used by Jesus.
In the same wikipedia the word ELI is written and pronounce as ALI in arabic dialect
By sheer coincidence the meaning of both the words Mean "Most High".
a prophet of status of Jesus spoke to ALI/eli his holy father/GOD and in short form to past graded prophet of the past.
Letter of H.Ali was at his status of Khalifa. and not as an Imam.
Is may look as 3/4 prayer and Ibaadat time before 1/3 morning left( you may have added the prayers name n changed lines with corrupt ink in that).
As observed that you seem to contented n happy with 5 principles.
Ismailis have their Imam to guide on that issue.
Both do not compromise from each other view point.
THEN WHY ARE YOU ON THIS WEBSITE?
FOR WHAT REASONS?
The reality of today is what you must try to correct in Shariatis as what you are.( a part of them)
they perform in 2014 due to time constraint and worldly commitment only
2x prayers and WILLl go down 1x in 80 years.
90% males hate keeping beard they might leave the religion altogether.
70% of female hate burqa and they may also leave.
Average 80% hate the convents of religion today in 2014,
in next 83 years it can as high as 95%.
Chants of Shariati of 'Allah U Akbar' is seen as a war cry on western media is observed "we shall finish you all'.
You will be better of to preach and remind who will be slipping of 2x to 1 x prayer and tell them do 5x-15x to done by them.
All religion without valid reasoning will disintegrate ( not finish).
The Farman of Imam SMS will time period of 200 years ahead said in 1897. is just 83 years away.
THE GLORY OF OF THE IMAMAT AND ISMAILIS WILL BE THERE FOR WORLD TO SEE IN FUTURE.
By the way you have good debating ability, the scholars here were also driven to dig data of the deaths with your posting.
I firmly believe in present and what can be the future.
May your Ali+Lah=Allah bless you if intend increase the future 1x prayer
to 5x in future of Shariatis.
Admin saw some faint hope in you in past,now he declares that you are hopeless,you can expect some Shariati site recommendation with failure
certificate from him.
The word Elijah is used for a prophet of the past before Jesus,see wikipedia.
The word said by Jesus was ELI ELI,which was said not in Greek but in Hebrew/Aramic dialect used by Jesus.
In the same wikipedia the word ELI is written and pronounce as ALI in arabic dialect
By sheer coincidence the meaning of both the words Mean "Most High".
a prophet of status of Jesus spoke to ALI/eli his holy father/GOD and in short form to past graded prophet of the past.
Letter of H.Ali was at his status of Khalifa. and not as an Imam.
Is may look as 3/4 prayer and Ibaadat time before 1/3 morning left( you may have added the prayers name n changed lines with corrupt ink in that).
As observed that you seem to contented n happy with 5 principles.
Ismailis have their Imam to guide on that issue.
Both do not compromise from each other view point.
THEN WHY ARE YOU ON THIS WEBSITE?
FOR WHAT REASONS?
The reality of today is what you must try to correct in Shariatis as what you are.( a part of them)
they perform in 2014 due to time constraint and worldly commitment only
2x prayers and WILLl go down 1x in 80 years.
90% males hate keeping beard they might leave the religion altogether.
70% of female hate burqa and they may also leave.
Average 80% hate the convents of religion today in 2014,
in next 83 years it can as high as 95%.
Chants of Shariati of 'Allah U Akbar' is seen as a war cry on western media is observed "we shall finish you all'.
You will be better of to preach and remind who will be slipping of 2x to 1 x prayer and tell them do 5x-15x to done by them.
All religion without valid reasoning will disintegrate ( not finish).
The Farman of Imam SMS will time period of 200 years ahead said in 1897. is just 83 years away.
THE GLORY OF OF THE IMAMAT AND ISMAILIS WILL BE THERE FOR WORLD TO SEE IN FUTURE.
By the way you have good debating ability, the scholars here were also driven to dig data of the deaths with your posting.
I firmly believe in present and what can be the future.
May your Ali+Lah=Allah bless you if intend increase the future 1x prayer
to 5x in future of Shariatis.
Admin saw some faint hope in you in past,now he declares that you are hopeless,you can expect some Shariati site recommendation with failure
certificate from him.
If prayers were added then it was,My Prophet who added it. Prophet prayed 5 Salat all the time except in time of travel, Fear and rain.Letter of H.Ali was at his status of Khalifa. and not as an Imam.
Is may look as 3/4 prayer and Ibaadat time before 1/3 morning left( you may have added the prayers name n changed lines with corrupt ink in that).
Imam Ali,Hussein , Hassan, and all other imams of Ahl ul bait prayed them without making fun of it or questioning it.
When your Imaan in Quran or Authentic Sunnah is weak or non existent then you question Salat.
Quote:
A member of the scientific council of Istanbul University, Muhammad Nour Dughan, has issued a controversial fatwa or religious edict cutting Islamic prayer requirements from five to three times a day.
The move has provoked widespread debate as well as opposition from orthodox imams or Muslim clerics.
Sharia law allows for the possibility of praying three times a day in case of sickness or travel.
Some people never give up.
This Fatwa is one mans opinion.
If opinion is against Sunnah or Quran it is useless.
Go check in Turkey if there are only 3 prayers.
Sharia is clear
Zohar- Asar, Maghrib-Iesha can be combined in case of travel, sickness, Fear or natural calamity.
Do you really understand this."Merging prayers has become a modern necessity," he told the al-Arabiya website. "In most cases, people do not always perform the five prayers on time due to the pressures of modern life."
This guy is talking about merging prayers not eliminating 5 1and reducing to 3.
Merging means combining Zohar- Asar to Zohr or Asar time and Maghrib-Iesha to either after sunset or After darkness of night.