To tret: Ya Ali Madad.
A person not willing to read ,understand and follow the Farman is worth a dust on the road( a person with no Imaan).That person is not fit to becalled an Ismaile in the first place.
It was all the shallow Tariqati who deserted the Imam earlier and their progeny is part of some 70 subsects.
quote the surah word by word where is the word Formless is mentioned.every Ayat has Baatin it.
YOU do not believe in Farmans ,you do not believe in Baatin aspect of faith. You do not believe in Haqiqat and Marifat phases in our faith.
then you are a worst than a Shariati.(insider enemy is more dangerous than outsider known enemy)
Even Satan did not bow down to Adam on Ali+lah=Allah's Farman stating that he had superior knowledge than Adam.
Your status is similar like him assuming that your are TOO cunning to accept Farmans.
you are likea donkey braying 'approved by MHI 'three to four times the concept paper n not a order on Ismailis.
You are following him as Agakhan a person approving resolutions of board of directors in a company.
I assume you may having reservations of He being Imam like a Shariati over here.
In the time of Imam SMS, Then leader took the matter of Ali Allah which we recite as our kalima in all our tasbih three times a day.
It was requested by SHALLOW TARIQATIs that part was annoying others in the Ummah.
Imam SMS firmly said without that their Dua will have no meaning n purpose and WARNED THEM that it wont be changed.
Similar concepts may also be submitted by super smart shallow Tariqati to MHI of why Ali Allah is our Tasbih(An order of imam) and claiming (his greeting words of a farman) himself as Spiritual/Holy Father.( as per Christanity on God has that status)
These words embarrass Jamat.
I am sure MHI/ALI must have shown the door same as Imam SMS/ALI.
WHAT IMAM WANT IT STAYS PUT .IT ISAN ORDER FROM HEAVENS.
I have posted a Farman of Imam Aga Ali Shah.
can you reply that in sentence by sentence.
only cowards escape the words of God
So was the Satan thinking himself very knowledgeable in matters of faith.
ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.
Question for Br tret
If imam says as follows
If imam says as follows
So word of Quran is word of God for Ismaili Muslims? Is this considered Farman?on June 23,2002 Karim Aga Khan declared before Governor Perry and media at Houston, Texas, US: ”for Muslims the word of Qur’an is the word of God” during the Openning Ceremony of an Ismaili Jamatkhana…
@nuseri:
We have been having conversation for a while now, with every participants, and we can see change in the tone and value of every participants, either positive or negative. But yours seem to be the same. A wise man said once, only the wisest and the stupidest men don't change. For sure you can't be part of the former.
I really wasn't expecting this from a spiritual brother!! I never thought an ismaili can carry so much anger and hate inside. This is the end of our debate!!
Wish you well in your journey. Good luck.
We have been having conversation for a while now, with every participants, and we can see change in the tone and value of every participants, either positive or negative. But yours seem to be the same. A wise man said once, only the wisest and the stupidest men don't change. For sure you can't be part of the former.
I really wasn't expecting this from a spiritual brother!! I never thought an ismaili can carry so much anger and hate inside. This is the end of our debate!!
Wish you well in your journey. Good luck.
Farmeen of Imam of the time traditionally addressed to Ismailies. However, in today's day and age, I believe that speeches of MHI can be technically considered as Farmaan, but to a wider audience [public]. I believe public can benefit from it widely.zznoor wrote:Question for Br tret
If imam says as follows
So word of Quran is word of God for Ismaili Muslims? Is this considered Farman?on June 23,2002 Karim Aga Khan declared before Governor Perry and media at Houston, Texas, US: ”for Muslims the word of Qur’an is the word of God” during the Openning Ceremony of an Ismaili Jamatkhana…
I think there's no doubt that Word of Qur'an is indeen World of God.
To zznoor. Ya Ali madad.
A well researched question.my compliments.
I am aware of your intentions here.
If you post any selected sentence of an address by H.H the Aga Khan/MHI.
You must also put minimum 2 lines before n after the words chosen for question.
It is an address mainly to Non Ismaili leaders of Texas and American media (audience profile)
present there along with selected invited Ismailis.
It IS NOT A FARMAN BY 1000 MILES.
Chirstians in the west have questions on basic of Quran on wheter is it word of God or the words of Prophets seen n acknlowledge rationally?
As a role of his leader of the Ummah,here he affirms that indeed they are
word of God.
i.e .if any body quotes words of Sheakphere in a book.A person
with authority or resepected in academic of poets will confirm that those
word/poems are indeed of Sheaksphere.
what MHI in his address the doubts and concerns in regard to Quran.
In does not imply to all present there to follow quran and tell the white
learned people present there to start n do acrobatics (salats),beard n burqa.
If any spoken or written matter is there is the site www.nanowisdom
if not a Farman as understood by followers of MHI.
There are 100 of Farmans by the Imam to follow his Farmans and not technically added the words such as address,speech,letters sent workers
of Imamat Institutions,interview and any other communication not forming the part of a Farman.
In this specific address.MHI has said the truth.
We do have smart ones with technics to look n n believe the other
way round
A well researched question.my compliments.
I am aware of your intentions here.
If you post any selected sentence of an address by H.H the Aga Khan/MHI.
You must also put minimum 2 lines before n after the words chosen for question.
It is an address mainly to Non Ismaili leaders of Texas and American media (audience profile)
present there along with selected invited Ismailis.
It IS NOT A FARMAN BY 1000 MILES.
Chirstians in the west have questions on basic of Quran on wheter is it word of God or the words of Prophets seen n acknlowledge rationally?
As a role of his leader of the Ummah,here he affirms that indeed they are
word of God.
i.e .if any body quotes words of Sheakphere in a book.A person
with authority or resepected in academic of poets will confirm that those
word/poems are indeed of Sheaksphere.
what MHI in his address the doubts and concerns in regard to Quran.
In does not imply to all present there to follow quran and tell the white
learned people present there to start n do acrobatics (salats),beard n burqa.
If any spoken or written matter is there is the site www.nanowisdom
if not a Farman as understood by followers of MHI.
There are 100 of Farmans by the Imam to follow his Farmans and not technically added the words such as address,speech,letters sent workers
of Imamat Institutions,interview and any other communication not forming the part of a Farman.
In this specific address.MHI has said the truth.
We do have smart ones with technics to look n n believe the other
way round
I have met one of ismailie brothers a while back at his home, who was still keeping a little statue of an elephant, which really surprised me. I never questioned why is that so. Could it be that he still holds on to what was once near and dear to him? Who knows.
But, at a later date, I asked him if he would consider him a Muslim or an Ismailie, and surprisingly enough his answer was Ismailie. So, in other worlds, some of our ismailie brothers consider themselves Ismailie, but not Muslim.
Our beloved MHI has best said, to educate and learn our history where we came from and who we are!
But, at a later date, I asked him if he would consider him a Muslim or an Ismailie, and surprisingly enough his answer was Ismailie. So, in other worlds, some of our ismailie brothers consider themselves Ismailie, but not Muslim.
Our beloved MHI has best said, to educate and learn our history where we came from and who we are!
Somebody who doesn't have a clue about one of the very first principal of Ismailei, there's no use in debating with such a person! it's like kicking a dead horse!nuseri wrote:To zznoor. Ya Ali madad.
A well researched question.my compliments.
I am aware of your intentions here.
If you post any selected sentence of an address by H.H the Aga Khan/MHI.
You must also put minimum 2 lines before n after the words chosen for question.
It is an address mainly to Non Ismaili leaders of Texas and American media (audience profile)
present there along with selected invited Ismailis.
It IS NOT A FARMAN BY 1000 MILES.
Chirstians in the west have questions on basic of Quran on wheter is it word of God or the words of Prophets seen n acknlowledge rationally?
As a role of his leader of the Ummah,here he affirms that indeed they are
word of God.
i.e .if any body quotes words of Sheakphere in a book.A person
with authority or resepected in academic of poets will confirm that those
word/poems are indeed of Sheaksphere.
what MHI in his address the doubts and concerns in regard to Quran.
In does not imply to all present there to follow quran and tell the white
learned people present there to start n do acrobatics (salats),beard n burqa.
If any spoken or written matter is there is the site www.nanowisdom
if not a Farman as understood by followers of MHI.
There are 100 of Farmans by the Imam to follow his Farmans and not technically added the words such as address,speech,letters sent workers
of Imamat Institutions,interview and any other communication not forming the part of a Farman.
In this specific address.MHI has said the truth.
We do have smart ones with technics to look n n believe the other
way round
boasting about Iman doesn't prove anything, unless you back with credible reasoning.
As I said:
Din ke ba tasbih wa sar wa rish nest
Har ke Ali goft ke darvish nest
ديــن که به تسبيح و سر و ريش نيست
هــرکه علي گفت که درويش نيســـــت
Din and Mazhab is not about beard or qibah or tasbih
And whoever just said ALI is not automatically be considered darvish
Fits you really perfectly.
Yes - Quran is word of God - and we Ismailies follow it as per OUR INTERPRETATION BY OUR SCHOOL OF JURISPRUDENCE - that is the IMAM.zznoor wrote:Question for Br tret
If imam says as follows
So word of Quran is word of God for Ismaili Muslims? Is this considered Farman?on June 23,2002 Karim Aga Khan declared before Governor Perry and media at Houston, Texas, US: ”for Muslims the word of Qur’an is the word of God” during the Openning Ceremony of an Ismaili Jamatkhana…
The question is - DO YOU BELIEVE IN IT AS THE WORD OF GOD?
and do you follow it?
because from what we've proven over the last few months - is that neither do you follow it - nor do you realize that you don't follow what's in the Quran.
Shams
Brother, by it has been proven 100% that he (nuresi) has no idea what he is talking about. I guess we should leave him alone...a_27826 wrote:to nuseri:nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
There are over 70 sect in Islam due to what persons other than Imam
thinking themselves as wise,smart cunning etc undermined the then Imam of the time and set convents as understood by them and broke away as sects seen today.
Early ones were the Khalifas assuming they had deemed approval of the Prophet on matters of Faith.
It went on till times of today.
It is sad to see Ismailis in spite of having given Bayat to the Imam and are dancing to the tune of leaders concept papers.
First n foremost is follow the Farman of the Imam said verbally or written by HIM.
Here we see that resolutions out of concept papers is becoming the sole
doctrine and order of the faith.
Please read the history of people tweaking the status of Imam to a normal surviving human being,They are the one who created the new subsect with concept of Ghayab Imam etc etc.
Imam from time time does approves like Ginan,Qasidas and other Tariqa matters as traditional material to supplement the faith.
These material are part of Tariqa to understand the Haqiqat n beyond that and NOT to absolute follow them who composed it.
In the same way 1975 is nearly 39 years old a concept paper was made n approved N NOT A FARMAN MADE BY AN IMAM.
It was on how best can MHI be portrayed amongst the world community n Ummah and how best the the word Imam be seen and written as in words if needed from the text and word available.They did a brilliant job as that was the need of that period.
The constitution which came later super seeds all earlier concept papers in part or totality.
Ask other forum members who all are with reasonable understanding.
WHOM WOULD THEY FOLLOW ?
A. Concept papers prepared by the leaders and Approved by MHI.
or
B. Farmans made by MHI personally on matters of Faith.
( those who are blind and cannot read it may ignore this question)
If resolutions of followerswould rule the day of an Ismaili then Farmans will look useless to those follow sad history of divisions in Islam religion.
If Allah is formless ( where is that said in any any Ayat ?)
Then how come its reflection/image/mazhar have a form and a body of a Human?
Nuseri was considered as a Disobedient Tariqati then by Asabs along side with H Ali.
Not one but few Imams have mentioned Him in their Farman to have faith n become like Him.
I believe those Farmans.Do you as an Ismaile believe those Farmans?
I heard that people of other religion wanted to become Ismailie for the sake of Immigration benefits.
I also acknowledge the approved concept papers needed for smooth running of Imamat activities 39 years back.
are you trying to say Imam is practising "takiya" ?
That is, He is God but not declaring so because to reconcile with the "other side" and soften their hearts ?
None of what he's saying make any sense and he is calling me Satan. I'd suggest our participant be the judge and see who's Satan?
While he's boasting about being a true ismailie (just because he says Ali is Allah) but he's so ignorant that stepping on what beloved MHI putting so much emphasis and want us to practice (pluralism). Just because I don't agree with his vision now I am the Satan. Wow mind boggling nuresi.
I am sure you would make Maula very happy.
To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
You used the word declared.It was an address as Honored guest and not anyone's declaration or confession to any authorities.
ALI chooses n picks his words perfectly.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
As the western world is allergic to chants of 'Allah u Akbar' by Disasters destroying humanity on TV.
Christians (Texas comes in Bible belt) believe in Holy father of Jesus Christ as GOD who called his Holy father ALI ALI just before death.
Now you are aware that answers n analytic s are available at many levels from intellects and not dumbos from Shariati sites.
You used the word declared.It was an address as Honored guest and not anyone's declaration or confession to any authorities.
ALI chooses n picks his words perfectly.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
As the western world is allergic to chants of 'Allah u Akbar' by Disasters destroying humanity on TV.
Christians (Texas comes in Bible belt) believe in Holy father of Jesus Christ as GOD who called his Holy father ALI ALI just before death.
Now you are aware that answers n analytic s are available at many levels from intellects and not dumbos from Shariati sites.
nuseri wrote:To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
You used the word declared.It was an address as Honored guest and not anyone's declaration or confession to any authorities.
ALI chooses n picks his words perfectly.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
As the western world is allergic to chants of 'Allah u Akbar' by Disasters destroying humanity on TV.
Christians (Texas comes in Bible belt) believe in Holy father of Jesus Christ as GOD who called his Holy father ALI ALI just before death.
Now you are aware that answers n analytic s are available at many levels from intellects and not dumbos from Shariati sites.
This is precisly why I am Plain Jane Muslim and not Ismaili Muslimtret
Anything approved, by MHI is 100% correct by me. You have a free will to judge/doubt and refuse MHI, all the power to you!
For me Quranic and authenitic Sunnah requirement are enough.
I do not have to follow leaders who prectice Taqiya or say something and do something else in their personal life.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
Wow
zznoor wrote:nuseri wrote:To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
You used the word declared.It was an address as Honored guest and not anyone's declaration or confession to any authorities.
ALI chooses n picks his words perfectly.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
As the western world is allergic to chants of 'Allah u Akbar' by Disasters destroying humanity on TV.
Christians (Texas comes in Bible belt) believe in Holy father of Jesus Christ as GOD who called his Holy father ALI ALI just before death.
Now you are aware that answers n analytic s are available at many levels from intellects and not dumbos from Shariati sites.This is precisly why I am Plain Jane Muslim and not Ismaili Muslimtret
Anything approved, by MHI is 100% correct by me. You have a free will to judge/doubt and refuse MHI, all the power to you!
For me Quranic and authenitic Sunnah requirement are enough.
I do not have to follow leaders who prectice Taqiya or say something and do something else in their personal life.
He used the word God and not 'Allah' specifically.
Wow
Where did we ask you to follow anything?
To the contrary - you're trying to get us to follow your hocus pocus - which isn't even based on the Quran - but from what it seems rather a cult formed around the Prophet -which I don't think even the Prophet would approve.
Shams
Hocus focus? Following Salat, swam, hajj and zakat.?To the contrary - you're trying to get us to follow your hocus pocus - which isn't even based on the Quran - but from what it seems rather a cult formed around the Prophet -which I don't think even the Prophet would approve.
Prophet and Hz Ali prayed 5 Salat/day, fasted in Ramadan, went hungry to give Zakat and performed Hajj and that was hocus focus?
And they were part of cult?
Question: What is the word for word literal definition of the words found in Matthew 27 that Jesus cried out while he was dying on the cross?zznoor wrote:Fairytale from Ali Cult.Christians (Texas comes in Bible belt) believe in Holy father of Jesus Christ as GOD who called his Holy father ALI ALI just before death.
Answer: The scripture in question is in Matthew 27:
45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?' " (Matthew 27:45-46, NASB)
The English words ELI ELI (Strong's Concordance Number #G2241) in their literal meaning in the Greek language are "God, God." The meaning of the word LAMA (Strong's Concordance Number #G2982) is "Why." Lastly, the exact meaning of the word SABACHTHANI (Strong's Concordance Number #G4518) is "You have left (forsaken, abandoned) me."
Strong's says that these Greek words are transliterations of Hebrew and Aramaic words. Transliteration is the attempt to make a word sound the same in another language. For the verse in question, the New International Version (NIV) has "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani." The King James Version (KJV), New King James Version (NKJV), New American Standard (NASB) and the Holy Bible a Faithful Version render the phrase as "Eli Eli lama sabachthani." The NIV is the only popular Bible translation that says the first two words Jesus cried out are "Eloi Eloi."
This phrase by Jesus is a quote taken from the book of Psalms, chapter 22.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. (Psalm 22:1-2, NIV)
Some in the crowd who heard Jesus cry out "Eli Eli . . ." from the cross thought he was calling on Elijah. Sadly, even those Jews who thought Jesus was crying out for Elijah, had NO compassion for him, but used what they thought they heard to taunt him.
"Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, 'This Man is calling for Elijah!' Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink. The rest said, 'LET HIM ALONE; LET US SEE IF ELIJAH WILL COME TO SAVE HIM.'" (Matthew 27:47-49)
"Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, 'Look, He is calling for Elijah!' Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, 'LET HIM ALONE; LET US SEE IF ELIJAH WILL COME TO TAKE HIM DOWN.'" (Mark 15:35-36)
Soon after Jesus spoke the words in Matthew 27, his perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world complete, he cries his last words:
46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, 'Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.' Having said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46, NRSV)
This is what Christian say
You tell them it was Ali your god, they will laugh at you
zznoor wrote:Hocus focus? Following Salat, swam, hajj and zakat.?To the contrary - you're trying to get us to follow your hocus pocus - which isn't even based on the Quran - but from what it seems rather a cult formed around the Prophet -which I don't think even the Prophet would approve.
Prophet and Hz Ali prayed 5 Salat/day, fasted in Ramadan, went hungry to give Zakat and performed Hajj and that was hocus focus?
And they were part of cult?
Where are these 5 Pillars in the Quran?
Where is the 5x Salat?
Nowhere - i've definitely proved to you that all that you follow - is not dictated by the Quran but rather by people interpreting the Quran.
Just as you are entitled to follow who you please - so are we - so stop being so judgemental and focus on your faith - and let us follow ours.
And coming to the faith - WE FOLLOW THE QURAN a lot more than you do...
the problem is - you got caught with your pants down - you didn't anticipate the flaws in your own practice or for us to have the academic foundations to point them out....
Once again - we never asked you to follow us - you came here and are trying to show us "The light" or the "right path"...
please look at your address bar - the site is ismaili.com
not ismailies wanting to be converted.com
or ex ismailies trying to justify their decisions to themselves.com
or pscychological challenged ex ismailis.com
You don't like what we have to say - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Wouldn't you be better served going to the copy paste sites and actually reading what they're writing?
Maybe that will help you bolster your faith more.
Oh and also - you yourself have admitted that the prophet didn't always pray 5x a day.
Also - how many Hajjs did the prophet perform after Hijra...tell us please?..
or even Hazrat Ali...
Our community - and the global community as a whole - has many poor people - yet you claim that you're eligible for Hajj - doesn't the Quran talk about ensuring that your COMMUNITY is SAFE before you go on Hajj? and spend all that money?
Islam isn't about the self - it is about those around you...
You claim that you do all of the things..do you take care of your neighbour - without judgement or strings..
I doubt it.
You don't like Ismailism - all the more power to you..
What are you doing here then?
maybe the chappal beating is enjoyable...
Shams.
There is no word like 5 pillars in Quran.Where are these 5 Pillars in the Quran?
It is Shahih hadith recorded in Bukhari and Muslim
It goes like this
For Quran illiterate these are Ayas you will find it in QuranBook of Belief Hadith no: 8
Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Umar
Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. 2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. 3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) . 4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) 5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.
Principle 1
To testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah (Quran 2:163) and
Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.(Quran 48:29)
Principle 2.
To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
Salat is mentioned 67 times in Quran
The Dawn Prayer ,Fajr is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
Zohar, The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
Asar, The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon and sunset.
This is Salat wusta, I have posted Hadith about it.
Maghrib, The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
Isha, The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.
3. To pay Zakat. (i.e. obligatory charity) (Quran 35:29-30, 9:60 and many more)
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) (Quran 3:97)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. (Quran 2:183-185)
Believers will be satisfied, doubters will complain and belittle for the life time
Now one question
where is Waliya or Imamat after Muhammad in Quran?
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
You wrote what an Imam approves is 100% correct.
It depend upon what level it is and circumstances the approval may have been made or given for safety of the Imam and it's follower.
Imam Zainuilabdin was forced to approve the rule of Yazid.
was it 100% correct approval.
In recent time then prime mister Mr Bhutto wanted to share a stage with the Imam in Hunza for Didar( it was approved by request with pressure/demand) and it was said he smoked his cigar while sitting on the stage.
What does one call these Approvals based on circumstances, 100% correct?
Farmans by Imam is 100% PURE and a material presented by mortal human being inspite of approval is may be 1oo% correct.
All prophet also took approval of relief for their followers from God.
They can also make mistakes and see how many era or civilization
ended what looked 100% correct.
For deeper understanding
The words of Farmans and Quran are Divine words.
No challenge but acceptance by Baatin interpretation.
Then come regular,important and also with truth(based on circumstances) word said by Divine people.
i.e Prophets,Pir etc.,They are not immune to mistakes.
My take would be giving different level of entity seen of MHI
by world at large,Ummah and Ismails.
The words quoted would be like words from a divine person.
PLEASE NOTE THAT 'DIVINE WORDS' AND WORD SAID BY A DIVINE
PERSON IS DIFFERENT.
it may be to certain level of analysis such
As Ayats of Quran can be taken as Divine words
and saying of Prophets( genuine Hadiths) as words said by a Divine person.
You see what has happened when when people follow the latter.
the 70 sub sect seen today is precisely words of Divine person or authority taking over the 'Divine word' of Quran n Farman,
whom I place at same level.The latter ones)
I place word said by Pir, Paigambers approved by Imam of the Time as next level in 'Approval List'.
Which can be 0%-1000% correct as any who may wish it to be.
I personally follow the 'divine words' and also value and respect
word said by divine person the truth seen in it as understood with
reasoning level.
You wrote what an Imam approves is 100% correct.
It depend upon what level it is and circumstances the approval may have been made or given for safety of the Imam and it's follower.
Imam Zainuilabdin was forced to approve the rule of Yazid.
was it 100% correct approval.
In recent time then prime mister Mr Bhutto wanted to share a stage with the Imam in Hunza for Didar( it was approved by request with pressure/demand) and it was said he smoked his cigar while sitting on the stage.
What does one call these Approvals based on circumstances, 100% correct?
Farmans by Imam is 100% PURE and a material presented by mortal human being inspite of approval is may be 1oo% correct.
All prophet also took approval of relief for their followers from God.
They can also make mistakes and see how many era or civilization
ended what looked 100% correct.
For deeper understanding
The words of Farmans and Quran are Divine words.
No challenge but acceptance by Baatin interpretation.
Then come regular,important and also with truth(based on circumstances) word said by Divine people.
i.e Prophets,Pir etc.,They are not immune to mistakes.
My take would be giving different level of entity seen of MHI
by world at large,Ummah and Ismails.
The words quoted would be like words from a divine person.
PLEASE NOTE THAT 'DIVINE WORDS' AND WORD SAID BY A DIVINE
PERSON IS DIFFERENT.
it may be to certain level of analysis such
As Ayats of Quran can be taken as Divine words
and saying of Prophets( genuine Hadiths) as words said by a Divine person.
You see what has happened when when people follow the latter.
the 70 sub sect seen today is precisely words of Divine person or authority taking over the 'Divine word' of Quran n Farman,
whom I place at same level.The latter ones)
I place word said by Pir, Paigambers approved by Imam of the Time as next level in 'Approval List'.
Which can be 0%-1000% correct as any who may wish it to be.
I personally follow the 'divine words' and also value and respect
word said by divine person the truth seen in it as understood with
reasoning level.
zznoor wrote:There is no word like 5 pillars in Quran.Where are these 5 Pillars in the Quran?
It is Shahih hadith recorded in Bukhari and Muslim
It goes like this
For Quran illiterate these are Ayas you will find it in QuranBook of Belief Hadith no: 8
Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Umar
Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles): 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. 2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. 3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) . 4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) 5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.
Principle 1
To testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah (Quran 2:163) and
Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.(Quran 48:29)
Principle 2.
To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
Salat is mentioned 67 times in Quran
The Dawn Prayer ,Fajr is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
Zohar, The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
Asar, The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon and sunset.
This is Salat wusta, I have posted Hadith about it.
Maghrib, The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
Isha, The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.
3. To pay Zakat. (i.e. obligatory charity) (Quran 35:29-30, 9:60 and many more)
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) (Quran 3:97)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. (Quran 2:183-185)
Believers will be satisfied, doubters will complain and belittle for the life time
Now one question
where is Waliya or Imamat after Muhammad in Quran?
But you keep calling it 5 pillars - which means it has to be in the QURAN NO?
Most of the verses you quote - do not speak of 5 prayers
they all speak of prayers - some of them don't even have the word Salat in them - yet you're twisting the meaning to try and make your arguement.
Do you pray 67x a day?
Since it's mentioned 67x - since Allah didn't say that this was a day - or a month or a year or a life time.
Show me an ayat where all the Prayers are called by NAME - not by you putting it in brackets - which you are wont to do - assuming that we don't speak arabic or know the quran.
Also - allah says - Worship HIM - not Mohammed - what you practice - is akin to worshipping Mohammed - isn't that Shirk?
You are quoting Bukhari and Muslim - so essentially - THEIR INTERPRETATIONS.
DO THEY KNOW WHAT ALLAH WAS THINKING??? OR WHAT THE PROPHET WAS THINKING??
Tell me - when did they come around....? during the time of the prophet?
NO - they came about 60-90 years after the death of the Prophet...so how do they know what the intent was?
They have their interpretations - I have mine.
Btw - I had asked you which school of jurisprudence do you follow?
Which interpretation do you follow?
You haven't answered - or maybe it is because you pick and choose what suits you?
Also in regards to Wilayah - I have one word to say to you - that is in the QURAN - but your arabic is weak - and you translate it as book or road; when the Arabic in the Quran is very clear -
Imam-e-Mubeen - the Quran refers to this person - into WHOM ALL KNOWLEDGE AND AUTHORITY HAS BEEN VESTED.
Btw - the same muslim and bukhari you quote - have numerous Hadiths speaking to the role of Ali as the Imam and the successor to the Prophet.
BOTH OF THEM ACCEPT THE EVENT OF GHADIR-E-KHUMM as happening.
Going back to Imam-e-Mubeen;
Whenever Allah in the Quran - refers to the Quran - it is referred to as Kitabum-Mubeen.
And Road - is Siratul Mubeen.
Please learn basic Arabic.
Also as for Quran illiterate - I think we've proved beyond any measure of doubt that the Ismailies follow the Quran even more than any other sect.
And you who thought followed the Quran - apparently follows other peoples interpretation of the Quran and hodge podge at that.
None of the people you follow have a direct link to the Prophet.
The 5x Prayer - from the Siratul Rasulillah - not a religious document; but rather a biography written 200 years after the death of the Prophet.
The rest - Sahih Bukhari and Muslim - also people who have no direct connection to the prophet - since they were born almost 60 years after the death of the Prophet.
And coming to your beliefs - you chose and follow what suits you - convenience.
Atleast we ismailies follow an Imam - that we believe and accept to be a direct descendant of the Prophet and we follow ONE interpretation - His and He is our school of Jurisprudence and interprets the Quran for us.
Also - by claiming to be able to interpret and understand the Quran - aren't you going against the Quran?
Al Imran 3:7
"It is He Who sent down upon you the Book, in which some verses have clear meaning, they are the substance of the Book, and others are those, in the meaning of which there is doubt. Those in whose hearts there is perversity pursue doubtful one desiring deviation and searching their own viewpoint of it, and its right interpretation is known to Allah And those who are well grounded in knowledge. Say, 'We believed in it, all is from our Lord and none accept admonition save men of understanding."
Btw the word used for those who are well grounded in Knowledge - Rasikun Fil Ilm.
So we have a Rasikun Fil Ilm that we follow - The Imam of the Time..because He is certified by the Quran - as the Imam-e-Mubeen - one in whom the knowledge and authority of everything is vested.
Who do you follow?
Next you'll come up and claim to be a rasikun fil ilm? which authorizes you to shove your interpretations down our throats?
How does the Chappal feel?
Shams
Why did Prophet say only 5 principle ( Buniyad )?
( note I did not use word pillars )
Why he or Hz Ali ever say seven principle and did not ever say Waliya was first one?
Can you quote any Hadith?
Can you find anywhere in Quran saying there will be institute called imamamat after Prophet Muhammad?
Imam appears 12 times in Quran
And read its use here
Quran Challange III
web.archive.org/web/20090826180140/http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-3
( copy and paste this in your browser )
Happy reading
( note I did not use word pillars )
Why he or Hz Ali ever say seven principle and did not ever say Waliya was first one?
Can you quote any Hadith?
Can you find anywhere in Quran saying there will be institute called imamamat after Prophet Muhammad?
Imam appears 12 times in Quran
And read its use here
Quran Challange III
web.archive.org/web/20090826180140/http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-3
( copy and paste this in your browser )
Happy reading
For a while I was under the impression that your intent and questions are genuine and you want learn with an open mind, but you times and over proved otherwise. I can provide legitimate answer, but that's not what you want to hear.zznoor wrote:Why did Prophet say only 5 principle ( Buniyad )?
( note I did not use word pillars )
Why he or Hz Ali ever say seven principle and did not ever say Waliya was first one?
Can you quote any Hadith?
Can you find anywhere in Quran saying there will be institute called imamamat after Prophet Muhammad?
Imam appears 12 times in Quran
And read its use here
Quran Challange III
web.archive.org/web/20090826180140/http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/imama ... hallenge-3
( copy and paste this in your browser )
Happy reading
Ahl-e sunnah generally refuse event of Ghadir-e-khum and this is where we can't agree.
So why waste time and space? There's no point.
To nuseri
When things go side way it's best to get back to the basics. Let's clarify few basic things first and agree upon instead of going back and forth.
1) you apparently imply that what was approved by MHI in the conference of 1975 is not necessarily true about the concept of God and Imam.
2) tell me what is so wrong about those 2 resolutions that MHI approved about concept of God and Imam?
Then please describe and clarify the following according yo your understanding. I may learn something here.
1. What is God? (Please don't say Ali+ila=Allah)
2. What is Imam (please don't say Ali+ila=Allah)
If we agree on these 2 very important and yet fundamental concept and foundation, I guess we can agree on other things very easily.
When things go side way it's best to get back to the basics. Let's clarify few basic things first and agree upon instead of going back and forth.
1) you apparently imply that what was approved by MHI in the conference of 1975 is not necessarily true about the concept of God and Imam.
2) tell me what is so wrong about those 2 resolutions that MHI approved about concept of God and Imam?
Then please describe and clarify the following according yo your understanding. I may learn something here.
1. What is God? (Please don't say Ali+ila=Allah)
2. What is Imam (please don't say Ali+ila=Allah)
If we agree on these 2 very important and yet fundamental concept and foundation, I guess we can agree on other things very easily.
If you call "Imam" the body, "he" is not God.
If when you say "Imam" you think of Noor, "He" is God.
Imam means different things to different people.
A more unifying concept would be to talk of Noor. All believe in Noor. There is no dispute. This is the cmmon bond between Sunni, Shia and others, they all believe in the Noor as God.
Ismailis believe that Imam is Noor. But non-Ismailis most always refer to the body when they say "Imam". The fact that He is the bearer of the Noor is irrelevant to the non-Ismailis, they can not comprehend this batini concept of Imam because they are not "Imami".
So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
If when you say "Imam" you think of Noor, "He" is God.
Imam means different things to different people.
A more unifying concept would be to talk of Noor. All believe in Noor. There is no dispute. This is the cmmon bond between Sunni, Shia and others, they all believe in the Noor as God.
Ismailis believe that Imam is Noor. But non-Ismailis most always refer to the body when they say "Imam". The fact that He is the bearer of the Noor is irrelevant to the non-Ismailis, they can not comprehend this batini concept of Imam because they are not "Imami".
So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
I assume it was a given, coming this question from an Ismailie, that body is not the topic of interest here.Admin wrote:If you call "Imam" the body, "he" is not God.
If when you say "Imam" you think of Noor, "He" is God.
Imam means different things to different people.
A more unifying concept would be to talk of Noor. All believe in Noor. There is no dispute. This is the cmmon bond between Sunni, Shia and others, they all believe in the Noor as God.
Ismailis believe that Imam is Noor. But non-Ismailis most always refer to the body when they say "Imam". The fact that He is the bearer of the Noor is irrelevant to the non-Ismailis, they can not comprehend this batini concept of Imam because they are not "Imami".
So why fight, tell them we believe in the same Noor but instead of manifesting itself in a black stone or a cow, or a statue or a burning bush, or a golden calf, or a cross, for us Ismailis, He manifest Himself in the Imam. That is what we call the Mazhar of Allah.
So, one think I want to understand is what is the distinction between Allah Himself, and Mazhar of Allah? Most would say, for lack of better understanding, of simplicity, they are the same. Are they?
My understanding is, and it's only mine and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, is this:
Imam is the place of manifestation where God manifests. The Noor or soul reflects Divine attributes and Names of God. We can see and understand all Names of God, Al-Rahman, Al-Rahim, Al-Qahar, All-knowing, in the Imam.
I think a man can also reflect these names, but with different intensity. It's like springs and rivers which eventually leads to an ocean. There are strong rivers that runs really strong and fast, and there are weak springs and small rivers that takes more time to join the ocean. Imams are like strong rivers with much more intensity.
What men should do, is to receive hidayat of Imam-e-Zaman, and knowledge of Taw'heed, to improve the intensity of reflecting these qualities and attributes.
That's why you see great men in the history like Al Halaj, Rumi, Shams Tabriz, Nasir Khusraw, etc.. who could reflect probably all these attributes, and Al Halaj could claim that he is God, because he joined the ocean, at last.
But, can we say that he is in the same martabat of Imam? NO! because, Imam is ALWAYS at the very top.
Don't you think that your above question has been answered many times in past!! so, why you keep asking same questions again and again which are answered very well?Now one question
where is Waliya or Imamat after Muhammad in Quran?
BTW:- If you do not have time to go back and research it then let me put it here; yes there are 23 (twenty three ayas) in noble quran which directly say about 'ROPE OF IMAMAT' .period, so stop your self to fool around.