Where is the English guidance?

[zznoor]

Shiraz
It's not about jews or christians here, the point that I was trying to make is that when the house of H.Musa[as] and H.Haroon[as] can be used as qibla to perform salaat, why can't ismailis use the house of ahle bait as their qibla ???

This was at the time of Musa and Haroon an it was for time when they were wondering and had to hide from Egyptian and pray in hiding.

Afterwords Jews were able to build their temple in Jerusalem and qibla was permentally changed to Jerusalem.

Prophet initially also prayed facing Jerusalem, but he always kept Kaaba in the middle until Quranic Aya was revealed to face Kaaba only.

Ismailis can use anything as their Qibla. Infect they can use their Imam's location broadcasted from his cell phone and face it in their prayers.

Qibla to Kaaba is for all Muslims and they abide by it without question. Sunni, Shia, Ahmedi and whatever.

why can't ismailis use the house of ahle bait as their qibla ???

Sure. Decide which house and Change Jamatkhana directions toward it.
Unfortunately prayer leader and office holder will be facing in the other direction.

[ShamsB]

Shiraz
It's not about jews or christians here, the point that I was trying to make is that when the house of H.Musa[as] and H.Haroon[as] can be used as qibla to perform salaat, why can't ismailis use the house of ahle bait as their qibla ???

This was at the time of Musa and Haroon an it was for time when they were wondering and had to hide from Egyptian and pray in hiding.

Afterwords Jews were able to build their temple in Jerusalem and qibla was permentally changed to Jerusalem.

Prophet initially also prayed facing Jerusalem, but he always kept Kaaba in the middle until Quranic Aya was revealed to face Kaaba only.

Ismailis can use anything as their Qibla. Infect they can use their Imam's location broadcasted from his cell phone and face it in their prayers.

Qibla to Kaaba is for all Muslims and they abide by it without question. Sunni, Shia, Ahmedi and whatever.

why can't ismailis use the house of ahle bait as their qibla ???

Sure. Decide which house and Change Jamatkhana directions toward it.
Unfortunately prayer leader and office holder will be facing in the other direction.

Tell me what direction is the Qiblah in the Grand Mosque in Cordoba?

So to us - house of Ahle Bait is in Aiglemont - so maybe we should all face France now?

Shams

[ShamsB]

zznoor

You kept on harping about the 5 pillars of Islam - i had questioned you to poiint these out in a single verse in the Qur'an - it seems that you've glossed over this question and moved on to the question of Qiblah.

Can you point out to me where Allah in the Quran directs us to follow the 5 Pillars?

Please note to POINT THIS OUT IN A SINGLE AYAT - not a hodge podge like you've been attempting to do.

Shams

[zznoor]

I agree with you that reality is very subjective and can be biased, based on personal preferences, if not backed up by reasonable and logical arguments. However, I beg to differ on the topic of 'history is useless'. I believe History is very important, for it can tell us of where we came from and who we are. It's true that we must live in today's day and age and what we live now is more important that what is past. But, we must not completely cross what was "past".

About Qur'an translation, I would like to say that translation isn't the problem here. Because translators simply translate the text [words] or Qur'an. Example, Water[English], Pani[Urdu], L'aue[French] etc... The problem arises when people try to do the Tah'weel of Qur'an in their own way. Now, this is very important that only Imam of the time can correctly do the Tah'weel of the Qur'an according to time and space! I think this is the biggest conflict amongst different sects of Islam. Most of mainstream ummah still beholds the Tah'weel that was done during the era of The Prophet; but us[Isma'ilis] believe that MHI is the carrier of the same Nur of the Prophet was, and have the divine power and authority to do the Tah'weel of Qur'an correctly in accordance with the time and space.

If we look at other communities, they are reaching space, and look at us, trying to prove who's right in doing X number of time prayers per day. I think there are wayyy important issues at hand today than to worry which direction to face or how many times to pray. I hope zznoor[and others alike] wake up one day and start worrying about important stuff that this.

Shia, Sunni,Ahmedi and other sects of Muslims are awake and we do the following.
We see 5 times day Salat in Quranic Ayats (Salat is mentioned 67 times in Quran by word Salat).
Prophet led prayers 5 times/ day and combined Zohr-Asr and Magrib-Isha under certain circumstances. Shia combine them for convince, Hz Ali issued Farman when 5 prayers are to be performed to his Governors.
We face Kaaba since it is Quranic command.
We do Wadu before prayers since it is in Quran
Our salat are done standing, bowing doing sajud because it is In Quran
We fast in Ramadan, it is Quranic command.
Hajj is in Quran and should perform it if you can afford it,

Now for Muslim, not to do above is sin. If you deny all or some you enter Kufra.

I am modern person, I pray five times, take care of my family, run my consulting company.
I know many Muslim Professional Muslim do it. You do not become modern Muslim by abandoning your religion.

Do you think Muslim surgeons, physicians, pharmacists, lab personnel, Nurses at Mass general hospital come to pray Salat because they are Jahils? (please note they do not abandon their work all at once and come, they trickle in and out as time permits). And many Muslin personnel do not come, probably they think they have become modern.

[zznoor]

Can you point out to me where Allah in the Quran directs us to follow the 5 Pillars?

Wow
I would never expect this question from Muslim.
Inshah Allah I will post it.

[zznoor]

Tell me what direction is the Qiblah in the Grand Mosque in Cordoba?
i do not know
So to us - house of Ahle Bait is in Aiglemont - so maybe we should all face France now?
Shams

[/quote]

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Facing the qibla.etc,whatever is is called is the most FUTILE N USELESS
discussion unfit even for low end rational sense persons.
as Islam was evolving.the prayer were conducted by groups earlier.
This was to have an order of uniformity (notan absolute physical binding order) .
if there are four persons then as for uniformity that all of them do not face 4 sides of their convenience.
This was as to have uniformity when praying together.
In early time more X times prayer WERE WEST facing then as not to face the sun in day or evening time.And Kaaba was right common sense idea for unformity
It was a common sense.
In all school ,all children are told stand in a line or seats in row for uniformity physically.
iI there any Ayat if a person prays in direction of its choice and circumstance their prayers stands null n void.
70% of the world population has no rigid order on to face when they are praying.
Today if a person desires to become like Einstein, he can try to have an Intellect (streak of genius)like him and not how he sat on the chair n where it faced and it's placement n one day unshaven stubble while he was at work.
zznoor is like a child adamant to have nursery toys in spite of being grown up.
There are more suicide in UK by Shariati muslim girls and women because of strict religious regulations upon them as the main reason.

What is the point of 5 stinking candle ,when in today times
following it is in low double digit percentage and produced more Satans
n frustration and feeling lost.
Person hawking these disaster stick must shove stick no 3,4 n 5 in
in places/holes suggested by majority in the form.

Ismailis sit in uniformity in line and also in line even when they are facing each other also.We are in Tariqat n onward.

[zznoor]

Person hawking these disaster stick must shove stick no 3,4 n 5 in places/holes suggested by majority in the form.

I can name 3 people and more
Allah SWT who told Muslims to pray 5, give Zakat, fast in Ramadan and perform Hajj

Prophet Muhammad SAW who obeyed these Farman.

Aga Khan (your Ali-Allah) who announced some 5 years ago that he was going to formulate uniform Namaaz for his Murids. Adial Tattoo like you must be reason for no progress.

Late Imam SMS was seen performing Namaaz.

MHI has led Namaaz when he was young.

[zznoor]

Tell me what direction is the Qiblah in the Grand Mosque in Cordoba?
Shams

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba


The mosque’s floor plan is seen to be parallel to some of the earliest mosques built from the very beginning of Islam.[10] It had a rectangular prayer hall with aisles arranged perpendicular to the qibla, the direction towards which Muslims pray.15] The prayer hall was large in size, flat, with timber ceilings held up by arches of horseshoe-like appearance.[10]

[nuseri]

To zznoor: YA ALI MADAD.
We Ismailis follow the BLESSED tariqa and not THE cursed Shariat.
No need to put five disaster sticks again again every 4 th dayof the posting.
well ShamB andIi have asked a question on which ayat orders the 5 disaster stick and any warning or punishment a person does not face theqibla while praying.
THERE ARE NONE.
Even of the 5x nursery circles is not there.
All the 5 acts if of following an Entity and not Allah.

In a worldwide surveyof males only `10% like grow a beard and 27% like a mustache only and 73 % liked to be clean shaven among grown ups.
70% of Muslim women under 30 do NOT want to wear burqa/ hijab where free and impartial opinion was taken.

It means nearly 80% of the Shariatis are forced by religion to look stupid n ugly.
It make them fell inferior amongst others and feeling like a cursed soul born as a Shariati with jail like convents and over 20 thing is Haram o them at a drop of a hat.

This physco has led to them hating them selves and have Jealous over other communities and wish to hurt them not that they are unbelievers but better humans than them.

In near future the same frustrated will burn their Mullahs etc out of revenge of their cursed Life status imposed by them.

Nobody is bothered on what you do for your faith,You are here because you are SIMPLY jealous of Ismailis.

You have opted for cursed life.enjoy it yourself.

Please give me answer of last seven years before death of stink heads whose copy paste you use ?
This is the third time I am asking just out of curiosity.

Why dont you preach the cursed souls who are at 40% level of 2x to pray
5/7x times their prayers n other shit on their website nput fear in them what ALI+lah+Allah will do to them and travel to their countries.
See what this animals do of you if you are amongst them.

GROUND REALITY IS SEEN N HEARD NOT DECAYED BONES OF ANCESTORS.

[a_27826]

So once again - no mention of the 5 prayers anywhere - where Allah says pray 5x a day - no one clear instruction.

This verse actually talks about the 3 prayers - sunset/sunrise - are edges of the day - ends of the day...
So Sunrise/one edge of the day and Sunset/another edge of the day - and in the watches of the night...
3 prayers

Where is the noon day prayer mentioned?

There is something i dont understand in 020:130.

maybe you can help me to understand better.

In 020:130 God instructs Prophet to glorify and praise the Lord

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the ends of the day

If you interpretate instruction No4 is same as Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes redundant.

Now why would "All Wise" God do that ?

I mean why repeat same instruction twice with different words in the same verse ?

And, on otherhand, If you interpretate instruction No4 different from Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes

Instruction No4a. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No4b. at the setting of the sun

so the new amended interpretation of 020:130

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No5. at the setting of the sun

If so, then where if the noon prayer ? instead i can see an extra "dawn" prayer.

I guess this question goes to ZZNOOR.

I hope my question was not too lengthy.

Is it possible this verse has nothing to do with the "Obligatory Prayers" as nuseri indicated ?

[shiraz.virani]

a_27826 said:

There is something i dont understand in 020:130.

maybe you can help me to understand better.

In 020:130 God instructs Prophet to glorify and praise the Lord

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the ends of the day

If you interpretate instruction No4 is same as Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes redundant.

Now why would "All Wise" God do that ?

I mean why repeat same instruction twice with different words in the same verse ?

And, on otherhand, If you interpretate instruction No4 different from Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes

Instruction No4a. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No4b. at the setting of the sun

so the new amended interpretation of 020:130

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No5. at the setting of the sun

If so, then where if the noon prayer ? instead i can see an extra "dawn" prayer.

I guess this question goes to ZZNOOR.

I hope my question was not too lengthy.

Is it possible this verse has nothing to do with the "Obligatory Prayers" as nuseri indicated ?

Well the "all wise" [which he is]...gave us the name of salaats in the very same quran and I have repeated it plenty of times on this forum.

If there were 5/7 or 50 salaats, the "all wise" would have named them accordingly.

You have a great knowledge when it comes to holy quran....you should know that on several places in quran, the VERSES are repeated...like for ex : 31:27, 18:109 etc etc

[shiraz.virani]

Noor said :

This was at the time of Musa and Haroon an it was for time when they were wondering and had to hide from Egyptian and pray in hiding.

Afterwords Jews were able to build their temple in Jerusalem and qibla was permentally changed to Jerusalem.

Prophet initially also prayed facing Jerusalem, but he always kept Kaaba in the middle until Quranic Aya was revealed to face Kaaba only.

Ismailis can use anything as their Qibla. Infect they can use their Imam's location broadcasted from his cell phone and face it in their prayers.

Qibla to Kaaba is for all Muslims and they abide by it without question. Sunni, Shia, Ahmedi and whatever.

So the order to face kaaba was given before H.Imam Ali[as] was born there or after ???

And also what is your take on the birth of H.Imam Ali[as] ??

[a_27826]

Well the "all wise" [which he is]...gave us the name of salaats in the very same quran and I have repeated it plenty of times on this forum.

If there were 5/7 or 50 salaats, the "all wise" would have named them accordingly.

you should know that on several places in quran, the VERSES are repeated...like for ex : 31:27, 18:109 etc etc

I was not referring to repeatative instructions in different verses of the Quran but rather repeatative instructions in the same verse 020:130

God tells Prophet to glorify Him before rising and setting of the sun, at night and at the ends of the day.

Brother Shams considers "before rising and setting of the sun" to mean same as "ends of the day"

[tret]

a_27826 said:

There is something i dont understand in 020:130.

maybe you can help me to understand better.

In 020:130 God instructs Prophet to glorify and praise the Lord

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the ends of the day

If you interpretate instruction No4 is same as Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes redundant.

Now why would "All Wise" God do that ?

I mean why repeat same instruction twice with different words in the same verse ?

And, on otherhand, If you interpretate instruction No4 different from Instructions No1 and No2, then instruction No4 becomes

Instruction No4a. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No4b. at the setting of the sun

so the new amended interpretation of 020:130

Instruction No1. before the rising of the sun

Instruction No2. before the setting of the sun

Instruction No3. from the hours of the night

Instruction No4. at the rising of the sun

Instruction No5. at the setting of the sun

If so, then where if the noon prayer ? instead i can see an extra "dawn" prayer.

I guess this question goes to ZZNOOR.

I hope my question was not too lengthy.

Is it possible this verse has nothing to do with the "Obligatory Prayers" as nuseri indicated ?

Well the "all wise" [which he is]...gave us the name of salaats in the very same quran and I have repeated it plenty of times on this forum.

If there were 5/7 or 50 salaats, the "all wise" would have named them accordingly.

You have a great knowledge when it comes to holy quran....you should know that on several places in quran, the VERSES are repeated...like for ex : 31:27, 18:109 etc etc

What if I told you this:
Be good in the morning
Be good at noon
Be good at 5 o'clock
Be good in the evening
Be good at night

What would be your conclusion? Will you be only good at those times? What about other times?

My take on this is to praise Allah tahalaa ALL THE TIMES.
It doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of standing or sitting or open hands (like sh'ia) or closed hands (like sunnie).it simply doesn't matter. What I think is very important that we "remember" Allah tahalaa all the times where ever we are whenever we are during day.

[shiraz.virani]

tret said :

What if I told you this:
Be good in the morning
Be good at noon
Be good at 5 o'clock
Be good in the evening
Be good at night

What would be your conclusion? Will you be only good at those times? What about other times?

My take on this is to praise Allah tahalaa ALL THE TIMES.
It doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of standing or sitting or open hands (like sh'ia) or closed hands (like sunnie).it simply doesn't matter. What I think is very important that we "remember" Allah tahalaa all the times where ever we are whenever we are during day.

Tret, I understand what you're saying and totally respect that [one has to be always god conscious].....but here's my take.

If a person is sick and goes to the doctor...the doctor prescribes him certain tablets he should take at certain time....If the doctor says take 1 pill with glass of water in the morning and take the other one at night....you don't go home and start popping pill every hour...it might cause some serious health issues

Just like our body needs medicine to heal, our soul needs its share of medicine too and that medicine = prayers/salaat.

I have no issues if zznoor prays 1,2,5 or 50 times thats her will and wish....but the salaat mentioned in quran is 3 and not 5...But if she still want's to interpret or divide salaat Al-Wutsa [Middle Prayer] into 3 parts thats again her will and wish, the quran does not impose sanctions on momins.

[ShamsB]

So - trying to take this thread back to the topic it was opened under...

I find this very interesting

"There is the real possibility that the Soviet Union may reconstitute itself, if the social upheaval that accompanies political disintegration and economic reform is allowed to become less tolerable than the strictures of a totalitarian state."

Hazar Imam
MIT Commencement Speech
May 27th 1994.

This was on BBC today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481


Shams

[shiraz.virani]

a_27826 said :

Brother Shams considers "before rising and setting of the sun" to mean same as "ends of the day"

He is right !!!!....what are the two ends of the day bhai ???...Is it not sunrise and sunset ???

Al Fajr [This prayers starts when the 1st thin ray of light is seen in the sky, please refer to 2:187]

Al Wutsa [This prayer starts when the sun starts declining from top [noon] and ends at sunset, please refer 2:238]

Al Esha [This prayer start at sunset and ends when all light has disappeared, please refer 24:58]

[zznoor]

Al Wutsa [This prayer starts when the sun starts declining from top [noon] and ends at sunset, please refer 2:238]

As-Salat Al-Wusta is the ‘Asr Prayer. In an authentic Hadith, the Prophet sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said during the battle of Khandaq,
“They have kept us busy from As-Salat Al-Wusta.” (Al-Bukhari no.4111 and Muslim no.627)

Without a doubt, that is the ’Asr prayer.'“Wusta”I literally means the middle number, but here it means the best.

[a_27826]

a_27826 said :

Brother Shams considers "before rising and setting of the sun" to mean same as "ends of the day"

He is right !!!!....what are the two ends of the day bhai ???...Is it not sunrise and sunset ???

Al Fajr [This prayers starts when the 1st thin ray of light is seen in the sky, please refer to 2:187]

Al Wutsa [This prayer starts when the sun starts declining from top [noon] and ends at sunset, please refer 2:238]

Al Esha [This prayer start at sunset and ends when all light has disappeared, please refer 24:58]

Good to know.

So did God instruct the Prophet to glorify him twice at one time in 020:130 ?

1. twice at dawn
2. twice in the evening
3. once at night

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Intereting observation by 2782 n Shiraz.
Ali+lah=Allah chooses n picks his word very perfectly.
What is the word specifically used for prayer?
Check the Ayats word by word in Arabic n not by quack translators.
Glorify n praise is NOT NOT THE SAME AS SALAAT WORD USED ELSEWHERE.
Prophet was sent down for not a demo piece by Allah to move his body for everyone to see for prayers.

He has greater role of preaching(praise n glorify),explaining of discussing
(praise n glorify) addressing after meditation done before sunlight.
If the words are different so it the meaning of the Ayats.

As Allah desired the time for prophet to avoid hot day light and also oblige his responsibility to his family and live hood earnings.

150 years back by start of Industrial revolution Muslim performed in practical reality of 4 namaz per day and are dowm to 2 namaz a day.In next 150 year it is possible that it could be down to one namaz a day average.It is JUST RUBBISH . Shiraz is right that let them do 5-15 saalats a day from the holy book.
the 5 candles may have 10-20 ayats. there of hundred of ayats mentioing
in total for Imam, life again,raised again, physical description of Allah,
Light on face.etc etc.
zznoor goes blank n vegetable on it.Quran is not 20 odd Ayats of mental
physical block of 1400 year back but over 1000s of Ayats equally valid n
important in Baatin n Zahir valid even for today's time .

TO a_27826:Ya Ali Madad.
Can you please name all the scholars who translation you search.
I want name of each n every one of them and their background n biography of those who mentioned the the Imam as Kitab by way of their interpration.
If you search what they wrote n post in wholesale n blindly.you should be well aware WHO N WHAT THEY ARE.otherwise you would also posting all crap listed or loaded on the net in relations to Ayats.

Please note with research come responsibility and not just copy pasting

[tret]

tret said :

What if I told you this:
Be good in the morning
Be good at noon
Be good at 5 o'clock
Be good in the evening
Be good at night

What would be your conclusion? Will you be only good at those times? What about other times?

My take on this is to praise Allah tahalaa ALL THE TIMES.
It doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of standing or sitting or open hands (like sh'ia) or closed hands (like sunnie).it simply doesn't matter. What I think is very important that we "remember" Allah tahalaa all the times where ever we are whenever we are during day.

Tret, I understand what you're saying and totally respect that [one has to be always god conscious].....but here's my take.

If a person is sick and goes to the doctor...the doctor prescribes him certain tablets he should take at certain time....If the doctor says take 1 pill with glass of water in the morning and take the other one at night....you don't go home and start popping pill every hour...it might cause some serious health issues

Just like our body needs medicine to heal, our soul needs its share of medicine too and that medicine = prayers/salaat.

I have no issues if zznoor prays 1,2,5 or 50 times thats her will and wish....but the salaat mentioned in quran is 3 and not 5...But if she still want's to interpret or divide salaat Al-Wutsa [Middle Prayer] into 3 parts thats again her will and wish, the quran does not impose sanctions on momins.

That's an interesting theory, but from where I see, still not logical enough to convince me.


a) let's start from basics.

- what's prayer according to you?

Let's assume that it's to remember Allah tahalaa and prais HIM and worship HIM! Let's agree that this is what prayer is all about and that's what is the moral of prayer.

b) Second, now based on item a), does it hurt if a muslim perform a nafle prayer, besides what's so-called 'obligatory' prayer? (I guess zznoor can chime in here). Let's assume that the answer is NOO! zznoor can confirm, if a muslim (or muslima) can be hurt (or do sin, in this case) by performing suplimentory nafle prayer!!!! [according to your analogy, 'popping pills every now and then']

c) prescription and medicine analogy, howmuch tempting it can sound, however, it can be subjective of the observer how he precieve himself!!! a sick person, who's in need of medicine(prayer) to be cured [saved]??? or someone who's in thirsty of the divine wine, who can't get enough, even if that means drinking it all day and all night, just because he enjoys it???? I'd like to be categorized very much in latter category, and definitly not the former!!!

I have no issue with zznoor at all, if praying 5 times gives her satisfaction spiritually!!! I would say to her, go for it!!!

For me, it gives me satisfaction spiritually, whenever I call my Maula!!! doesn't really matter where I am!!! or what time is it!!! To me, that is my prayer!! Even if it's 2 in the morning or 10 AM when i take my coffee break!! or 7AM when I am at the bus/subway!!!

Sorry dude, the analogy of medicine and prescription doesn't really suit me, for I don't consider myself to be sick!!! May be it works for shariati folks. Who knows???

[zznoor]

Br tret
ASAK

It is not question of just remembering Allah (for Muslims) or Maula for you.
Both religions has Sharia.
We have formal Salat and Ismailiis have formal Dua 3 times.
Salat has standing, Ruku,sujud as ordered in Quran and Ismaili a Dua has movements formulated by Imam.

So beside your casual rememberanc of Maula you are required to do Dua 3 times per day.

We have been discussing Salat for long time and every time smart people are asking things like
Show me one Aya which has word Salat and names of 5 prayers.
Show me one Aya which has 5 pillars in it.

My brother if you take number of Ayas I have listed, you can deduce 5 Salat.
Prophet performed 5 Salats until he was too weak to perform it.
There is order whic I have posted of Ali RA ordering governors when to perform 5 Salats.
It is clear from Prophets practice composition of each Salat.
It is clear in Quran about Qibla , hajj and fasting and why is there argument?[/quote]

[tret]

Br tret
ASAK

It is not question of just remembering Allah (for Muslims) or Maula for you.
Both religions has Sharia.
We have formal Salat and Ismailiis have formal Dua 3 times.
Salat has standing, Ruku,sujud as ordered in Quran and Ismaili a Dua has movements formulated by Imam.

So beside your casual rememberanc of Maula you are required to do Dua 3 times per day.

We have been discussing Salat for long time and every time smart people are asking things like
Show me one Aya which has word Salat and names of 5 prayers.
Show me one Aya which has 5 pillars in it.

My brother if you take number of Ayas I have listed, you can deduce 5 Salat.
Prophet performed 5 Salats until he was too weak to perform it.
There is order whic I have posted of Ali RA ordering governors when to perform 5 Salats.
It is clear from Prophets practice composition of each Salat.
It is clear in Quran about Qibla , hajj and fasting and why is there argument?

[/quote]

I never said don't perform ritual prayers. By all means continue doing that. But, I am talking about the moral of prayer. So, if you remember Allah tahala at all times besides the ritual prayer, then it's all for better.

You don't have to wait till 5 o'clock, for example [a specific time] to remember Allah tahala. You can do it anytime you wish.

I want to go back to the analogy of "Be good ..." and want to see your take on it!

[ShamsB]

Br tret
ASAK

It is not question of just remembering Allah (for Muslims) or Maula for you.
Both religions has Sharia.
We have formal Salat and Ismailiis have formal Dua 3 times.
Salat has standing, Ruku,sujud as ordered in Quran and Ismaili a Dua has movements formulated by Imam.

So beside your casual rememberanc of Maula you are required to do Dua 3 times per day.

We have been discussing Salat for long time and every time smart people are asking things like
Show me one Aya which has word Salat and names of 5 prayers.
Show me one Aya which has 5 pillars in it.

My brother if you take number of Ayas I have listed, you can deduce 5 Salat.
Prophet performed 5 Salats until he was too weak to perform it.
There is order whic I have posted of Ali RA ordering governors when to perform 5 Salats.
It is clear from Prophets practice composition of each Salat.
It is clear in Quran about Qibla , hajj and fasting and why is there argument?

[/quote]

Um - Quran is also clear on following Imam-e-Mubeen.

You posted that there were times for no reason at all that the Prophet didn't pray 5x a day....

I have taken the number of Ayats you've posted and every time - I come up with 3 prayers.

As a matter of fact - there are more Ayats that refer to the 3 prayers clearly - than mix and match - like you have.

So i am choosing to follow those.

What you're not getting is that the Quran and Faith as a whole are open to interpretation - and there are many interpretations that are correct - not just YOURS.

And it also seems that you're avoiding answering my question about the 5 pillars being mentioned in the Quran - being referred to as the 5 Pillars by Allah because I think in your google searches - and asking on the other websites - you've found that THERE IS NO REFERENCE OR MENTION BY ALLAH OF THESE 5 PILLARS...

So now you've moved away from that argument and now are in turn trying to turn the tables on us - doubting our faith.

The issue is not one of faith - but of interpretation..

How sad is this...i stand here - and tell you - it is okay for you to practice and believe what you want to believe - it is enough for me that you've accepted the Shahadah - that there is ONE GOD and MUHAMMED IS THE MESSENGER OF THAT GOD....

and on the other hand - you attempt to shove your practices down our throats and become judge/jury and executioner - when in the Quran that you claim to follow - and have form the basis of your faith - and yet rarely or sporadically do - and are selective about - tells us that only ALLAH has the right to JUDGE....

Maybe you're Allah - zznoor - from your actions - it sure seems like you think you are - passing judgement and telling us what FAITH should be - based upon what you understand - and since you understand it - and follow it to your understanding - it must be right? no?

Or if you're not Allah - you seem to have a pretty good insight into his mind no?
Coz you sure seem to proclaim it that way...

See the beauty in our belief - you have the right to believe what you believe...and practice - as do we.

Ever heard of Saudi Arabia? Or the Taliban? - Maybe you have - or are one of them - though I doubt if they'd allow a woman to participate....

They seem to think their version of Islam is correct and all else are wrong - kinda like you....do you not see yourself doing that?

Here is my take on faith...

"Service to humanity is the path of religion which leads to GOD . It is not the rosary , the prayer – mat and the cassock . For these do not constitute devoutness , as they are mere symbols."

Shaykh Saa'di

Of what point are all these hollow actions - if at the end of your life - you haven't made a difference in improving someone's quality of life.

All of these actions - are all about the self - even charity/zakat - is about the self -
How about doing something that is beyond?

how about extending acceptance and understanding..
Even a smile is a blessing - share that.

Shams

[shiraz.virani]

a_27826 said :

Good to know.

So did God instruct the Prophet to glorify him twice at one time in 020:130 ?

1. twice at dawn
2. twice in the evening
3. once at night

Did you even see me giving you that verse in my previous posts ???....I dunno why such a learned person is trying to manipulate things ???

Do you see the word salat in 20:130 ???....Do you see me advocating 20:130 as 3 times SALAT ???

20:130

"Therefore be patient with what they say, and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rise of the sun and before it sets, and glorify Him during the night and at the ends of the day, so that you may find satisfaction".

The word used in arabic = sabah bihamde rabikah = Glorify you lord with his praise = Tasbih

The verse 20:130 speaks about tasbih/ bandagi and not salat.

Infact 20:130 supports the argument of TRET as he said that one has to praise/ glorify god at all times.

If you read 20:130, allah[swt] has covered all the times ...ie one should praise and glorify him at all times.

But there is a difference between the ritual as zznoor has rightly said, the ritual = salat is farz and are to be said at specific times where as tasbih/ bandagi can be said at any time.

Hope I answered your question

[shiraz.virani]

Tret said :

a) let's start from basics.

- what's prayer according to you?

Let's assume that it's to remember Allah tahalaa and prais HIM and worship HIM! Let's agree that this is what prayer is all about and that's what is the moral of prayer.

b) Second, now based on item a), does it hurt if a muslim perform a nafle prayer, besides what's so-called 'obligatory' prayer? (I guess zznoor can chime in here). Let's assume that the answer is NOO! zznoor can confirm, if a muslim (or muslima) can be hurt (or do sin, in this case) by performing suplimentory nafle prayer!!!! [according to your analogy, 'popping pills every now and then']

c) prescription and medicine analogy, howmuch tempting it can sound, however, it can be subjective of the observer how he precieve himself!!! a sick person, who's in need of medicine(prayer) to be cured [saved]??? or someone who's in thirsty of the divine wine, who can't get enough, even if that means drinking it all day and all night, just because he enjoys it???? I'd like to be categorized very much in latter category, and definitly not the former!!!

I have no issue with zznoor at all, if praying 5 times gives her satisfaction spiritually!!! I would say to her, go for it!!!

For me, it gives me satisfaction spiritually, whenever I call my Maula!!! doesn't really matter where I am!!! or what time is it!!! To me, that is my prayer!! Even if it's 2 in the morning or 10 AM when i take my coffee break!! or 7AM when I am at the bus/subway!!!

I think you're mixing bandagi/tasbih with our holy dua...There is a reason why we have dua timings is it not ??

4: 103

When ye have performed the act of worship, remember Allah, standing, sitting and reclining. And when ye are in safety, observe proper worship. Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers.

[a_27826]

a_27826 said :

Good to know.

So did God instruct the Prophet to glorify him twice at one time in 020:130 ?

1. twice at dawn
2. twice in the evening
3. once at night

Did you even see me giving you that verse in my previous posts ???....I dunno why such a learned person is trying to manipulate things ???

Do you see the word salat in 20:130 ???....Do you see me advocating 20:130 as 3 times SALAT ???

20:130

"Therefore be patient with what they say, and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rise of the sun and before it sets, and glorify Him during the night and at the ends of the day, so that you may find satisfaction".

The word used in arabic = sabah bihamde rabikah = Glorify you lord with his praise = Tasbih

The verse 20:130 speaks about tasbih/ bandagi and not salat.

Infact 20:130 supports the argument of TRET as he said that one has to praise/ glorify god at all times.

If you read 20:130, allah[swt] has covered all the times ...ie one should praise and glorify him at all times.

But there is a difference between the ritual as zznoor has rightly said, the ritual = salat is farz and are to be said at specific times where as tasbih/ bandagi can be said at any time.

Hope I answered your question

Ok thanx for correction.

so, in 020:130, did God instruct the Prophet to "tasbih/ bandagi" ?

1. twice at dawn
2. twice in the evening
3. once at night

[tret]

Tret said :

a) let's start from basics.

- what's prayer according to you?

Let's assume that it's to remember Allah tahalaa and prais HIM and worship HIM! Let's agree that this is what prayer is all about and that's what is the moral of prayer.

b) Second, now based on item a), does it hurt if a muslim perform a nafle prayer, besides what's so-called 'obligatory' prayer? (I guess zznoor can chime in here). Let's assume that the answer is NOO! zznoor can confirm, if a muslim (or muslima) can be hurt (or do sin, in this case) by performing suplimentory nafle prayer!!!! [according to your analogy, 'popping pills every now and then']

c) prescription and medicine analogy, howmuch tempting it can sound, however, it can be subjective of the observer how he precieve himself!!! a sick person, who's in need of medicine(prayer) to be cured [saved]??? or someone who's in thirsty of the divine wine, who can't get enough, even if that means drinking it all day and all night, just because he enjoys it???? I'd like to be categorized very much in latter category, and definitly not the former!!!

I have no issue with zznoor at all, if praying 5 times gives her satisfaction spiritually!!! I would say to her, go for it!!!

For me, it gives me satisfaction spiritually, whenever I call my Maula!!! doesn't really matter where I am!!! or what time is it!!! To me, that is my prayer!! Even if it's 2 in the morning or 10 AM when i take my coffee break!! or 7AM when I am at the bus/subway!!!

I think you're mixing bandagi/tasbih with our holy dua...There is a reason why we have dua timings is it not ??

4: 103

When ye have performed the act of worship, remember Allah, standing, sitting and reclining. And when ye are in safety, observe proper worship. Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers.

I had no idea tasbih and Du'a or prayer had different purpose.
Please let us know what's the purpose (moral) of Du'a vs Tasbih?

[zznoor]

And it also seems that you're avoiding answering my question about the 5 pillars being mentioned in the Quran - being referred to as the 5 Pillars by Allah because I think in your google searches - and asking on the other websites - you've found that THERE IS NO REFERENCE OR MENTION BY ALLAH OF THESE 5 PILLARS...

Brother Quran is not simple book of instruction saying here are 5 founding principal of Islam.

It is there since prophet said in this Hadith

Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 007.
Sahih Bukhari Book 02. Belief

Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Raheem

Narated By Ibn 'Umar : Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

1. To testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah (Quran 2:163) and
Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.(Quran 48:29)
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. (Quran 6:71-72, 20:14 and many more)
3. To pay Zakat. (i.e. obligatory charity) (Quran 35:29-30, 9:60 and many more)
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) (Quran 3:97)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. (Quran 2:183-185)

I have copied this from ahadith.co.uk/chapter.php?cid=2
I have added Quran Sura:Aya numbers

Now I want you to show me which Aya refers to Waliya/Imamat