Where is the English guidance?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:24 pm

Here is word by word

فَٱصْبِرْ
So be patient
عَلَىٰ
over
مَا
what
يَقُولُونَ
they say
وَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
بِحَمْدِ
with praise
رَبِّكَ
(of) your Lord
قَبْلَ
before
طُلُوعِ
(the) rising
ٱلشَّمْسِ
(of) the sun
وَقَبْلَ
and before
غُرُوبِهَاۖ
its setting;
وَمِنْ
and from
ءَانَآىِٕ
(the) hours
ٱلَّيْلِ
(of) the night,
فَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
وَأَطْرَافَ
(at the) ends
ٱلنَّهَارِ
(of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ
so that you may
تَرْضَىٰ
be satisfied.
﴿١٣٠﴾

From
allahsquran.com/learn/#s20d7q1t0p1

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:24 pm

ZZnoor,
Nope, not at all my above post does not represents disrespect towards Islam or prophets because it is true that black stone was stolen. I do not lied or made up stories that you did before! In almost every subjects,
For instant example you boasted that 73 muslims sect qoted in quran!! But it is not true sister Noor, will you please stop this kind nonsense?
off course you disrespect prophet Mohammed saying him H. Ali"s puppet!! Shiraz is criticized you , you must consider me, bro Shams and admin your enemies because we are not coming in your foolish and garbadge trash talkingz which are nothing else but jist rubbosh talking, which you are find out to make you happy in your conversion , you are fooling your self, so it is not too late please come back and I promiss you that you will be not regret if you do so

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:47 pm

It is not hidden any more that she has just little knowledge ln Islam but try to fool us putting garbage of her own maid up quranic ayas the way she wants for example salat, it is not quoted that Muslim must have to perform five times in quran but she find out that(which is not true) from copy and pasting!.

No brother see over 45 translators also made it up
Ha ha ha

Tell me
Did Prophet Pray 5 times most of time?
Let me admit
He combined and shortened to 3 due to travel, fear, rain, sand storm
Few times he combined without any reason

And how about this Farman from Imam número uno

This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha

Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.

Sermon 198

Pledge yourself with prayer and remain steady on it; offer prayer as much as possible and seek nearness (of Allah) through it, because it is, (imposed) upon the believers as (a) timed ordinance (Qur'an 4:103). Have you not heard the reply of the people of Hell when they were asked: What hath brought you into the hell? They shall say: We were not of those who offered the regular prayers (to Allah)! (Qur'an, 74:42-43). Certainly, prayer drops out sins like the dropping of leaves (of trees), and removes them as ropes are removed from the necks of cattle. The Messenger of Allah - the peace and blessing of Allah he upon him and his descendants - likened it to a hot bath situated at the door of a person who bathes in it five times a day. Will then any dirt remain on him?

Its obligation is recognised by those believers whom neither the adornment of property nor the coolness of the eyes produced by children can turn away from it. Allah, the Glorified, says:

Men whom neither merchandise nor any sale diverteth from the remembrance of Allah and constancy in prayer and paying the poor-rate; ... (Qur'an. 24:37)
Even after receiving assurance of Paradise, the Messenger of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - used to exert himself for prayers because of Allah, the Glorified's command.

And enjoin prayer on thy followers, and adhere thou steadily unto it, ... (Qur'an, 20:132).

Then the Holy Prophet used to enjoin his followers to prayer and exert himself for it.

Another Hazrat Ali quote from nahjul balagha

Recommended prayers cannot attain the pleasures of Allah for you when obligatory prayers are left unattended.

Sermon 109
About Islam, the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Go ahead with the remembrance of Allah for it is the best remembrance, and long for that which He has promised to the pious, for His promise is the most true promise. Tread the course of the Prophet for it is the most distinguished course. Follow the sunnah of the Prophet for it is the most right of all behaviors. Learn the Qur'an for it is the fairest of discourses and understand it thoroughly for it is the best blossoming of hearts. Seek cure with its light for it is the cure for hearts. Recite it beautifully for it is the most beautiful narration. Certainly, a scholar who acts not according to his knowledge is like the off-headed ignorant who does not find relief from his ignorance, but on the learned the plea of Allah is greater and grief more incumbent, and he is more blameworthy before Allah.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:51 pm

because it is true that black stone was stolen.

I know Ismailies stole it
All I want you to post details of Muslims praying to substitute stone

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:07 pm

The issue is - she thinks I should follow it her way.

No brother follow your heart

A Muslim when he does not do obligatory Wadu,pray Salat/Namaz facing Qibla and do not fast in Ramadan is committing sin.
But when he denies all this he enters Kufr.

There are many ignorant Muslims who worship graves, kiss black stone for its Devine power. That should not reflect on people who know what Islam is.

Please do not make fun of Quran, Salat, fast in Ramadan, Zakat and Hajj if one can afford it.
These are fundamental of Islam of Allah his Rasul and Imamam Ali
Salaam (peace)

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:08 pm

zznoor wrote:These 2 are amazing

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
So bear their (heart-rending) talk patiently and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun (in Fajr [Dawn] Prayer) and before its setting (in the ‘Asr [Afternoon] Prayer) and glorify Him in the early hours of night (the Maghrib [Sunset] and ‘Isha’ [Night] Prayer) and also at the ends of the day (in Zuhr [Midday] Prayer when the first half of the day ends and the second half starts. O Esteemed Beloved, all this is designed) so that you may be pleased.

Dr. Kamal Omar
So show patience over what they say, and glorify (in the specified form of canonical Prayer) your Nourisher-Sustainer with (His) Praise: before the rising of the sun (in Salat-ul-Fajr), and before its setting (in Salat-ul-Asr), and out of the hours of the night also glorify (Him, in Salat-ul-isha) and at the extremes of the day (i.e., in Salat-ul-Zuhr when the day is at its Zenith and in Salat-ul-Maghrib when the day has come to a complete close) in order that you stand satisfied and agreed (with your inner self).

But this is INTERPRETATION - where in the ARABIC or the QURAN are these prayers mentioned in Verse 20:130?

They're not - that is the point.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:13 pm

zznoor wrote:
The issue is - she thinks I should follow it her way.
No brother follow your heart

A Muslim when he does not do obligatory Wadu,pray Salat/Namaz facing Qibla and do not fast in Ramadan is committing sin.
But when he denies all this he enters Kufr.

There are many ignorant Muslims who worship graves, kiss black stone for its Devine power. That should not reflect on people who know what Islam is.

Please do not make fun of Quran, Salat, fast in Ramadan, Zakat and Hajj if one can afford it.
These are fundamental of Islam of Allah his Rasul and Imamam Ali
Salaam (peace)

I thought you said these were fundamentals of Islam just as per the Prophet - where did Ali come into this?

Btw - the Ali that you refer to - is Shah Karim el Husayni - or what you taunt as Hazar Imam.

See - you've shifted light years from your arguments - yet I still stand where I stood from the beginning.

You're grasping at straws - coz your arguments are hollow and we've managed to blow them away - using them against you.

And btw no one is making fun of them - to the contrary you're making a mockery of them.

You bring 40+ interpretations - and we're saying those are great interpretations - which one do you follow? No answer to that - and if you follow do you do it like a buffet - pick one ayah from Sale's translation because it suits your need and another from Pickthall?

Ismailies on the other hand - follow only ONE interpretation of the Faith - and that is the Imam of the Time.

Why can't you accept that and let us be? or is your insecurity at leaving ismailism so great that you are in constant need of validation to prove your decision correct?

zznoor - you have lost this debate - truly it was very one-sided; since you relied upon copy paste and I upon conviction upon my faith.

I am willing go to hell for my beliefs - are you? Apparently not - since you left the faith.

I truly wish you peace and happiness in your chosen path..though I don't think you wish the ismailies the same.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:15 pm

zznoor wrote:
The issue is - she thinks I should follow it her way.
No brother follow your heart

A Muslim when he does not do obligatory Wadu,pray Salat/Namaz facing Qibla and do not fast in Ramadan is committing sin.
But when he denies all this he enters Kufr.

There are many ignorant Muslims who worship graves, kiss black stone for its Devine power. That should not reflect on people who know what Islam is.

Please do not make fun of Quran, Salat, fast in Ramadan, Zakat and Hajj if one can afford it.
These are fundamental of Islam of Allah his Rasul and Imamam Ali
Salaam (peace)

Also I thought you didn't accept the notion of Imamah - or now you do? And if you do accept it - then there is no argument - because as I've stated - we follow Ali - aka Shah Karim.

What exactly do you follow? has it changed to Shia Ithna Asheri? or are you a Sunni? ...since you change arguments based upon where you copy/paste from?

Shams

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:20 pm

I presume you have been taking the meaning of the word from a shithead

You will find translation of 36:12 by over 45 shitheads here

http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/12/default.htm

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:21 pm

zznoor wrote:Here is word by word

فَٱصْبِرْ
So be patient
عَلَىٰ
over
مَا
what
يَقُولُونَ
they say
وَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
بِحَمْدِ
with praise
رَبِّكَ
(of) your Lord
قَبْلَ
before
طُلُوعِ
(the) rising
ٱلشَّمْسِ
(of) the sun
وَقَبْلَ
and before
غُرُوبِهَاۖ
its setting;
وَمِنْ
and from
ءَانَآىِٕ
(the) hours
ٱلَّيْلِ
(of) the night,
فَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
وَأَطْرَافَ
(at the) ends
ٱلنَّهَارِ
(of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ
so that you may
تَرْضَىٰ
be satisfied.
﴿١٣٠﴾

From
allahsquran.com/learn/#s20d7q1t0p1

Thank you - now tell me - where is the middle of the day in this translation?

Also some of the interpretations/translations you brought talk about the different prayers - fajr etc.

Now tell me - where did the Prophet talk about these different prayers - not mentioned in the Quran i know - so did the prophet make them up?

Oh i forgot - you admitted that the prophet himself didn't follow the 5 prayers regularly - so if he was the perfect muslim and he didn't have a consistent prayer time - and YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW THE PROPHET - you don't have an argument left - do you?

Also - where is the instructions on what the prayer consist of - mentioned in the Quran...this i am curious to know - how Jibreel told the prophet how to pray - and WHERE IN THE QURAN does ALLAH SAY - now Jibreel will teach you to how to pray?

so let's break this arabic translation down shall we - and stick to it

before the rising and before the setting - aka the ends of the day.
and the hours of the night - so essentially I count 3 prayers.
Amazing how interpretation works no?

And it doesn't set limits also - it could mean 10x before sunrise
and 10x before sunset.

Let's see..Ismailies - we say our Salah or Du'a (supplication/prayer)
FYI - Namaz isn't mentioned in the Quran - so let's keep this simple....
We pray once in the morning before the rising of the sun; once before sunset..and once after sunset..
We met the requirement as per our understanding; and we're happy with that.

If people want to pray more - they are more than welcome to.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:30 pm

zznoor wrote:
It is not hidden any more that she has just little knowledge ln Islam but try to fool us putting garbage of her own maid up quranic ayas the way she wants for example salat, it is not quoted that Muslim must have to perform five times in quran but she find out that(which is not true) from copy and pasting!.
No brother see over 45 translators also made it up
Ha ha ha

Tell me
Did Prophet Pray 5 times most of time?
Let me admit
He combined and shortened to 3 due to travel, fear, rain, sand storm
Few times he combined without any reason

And how about this Farman from Imam número uno

This is from Hazrat Ali in nahjul balagha

Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.

Sermon 198

Pledge yourself with prayer and remain steady on it; offer prayer as much as possible and seek nearness (of Allah) through it, because it is, (imposed) upon the believers as (a) timed ordinance (Qur'an 4:103). Have you not heard the reply of the people of Hell when they were asked: What hath brought you into the hell? They shall say: We were not of those who offered the regular prayers (to Allah)! (Qur'an, 74:42-43). Certainly, prayer drops out sins like the dropping of leaves (of trees), and removes them as ropes are removed from the necks of cattle. The Messenger of Allah - the peace and blessing of Allah he upon him and his descendants - likened it to a hot bath situated at the door of a person who bathes in it five times a day. Will then any dirt remain on him?

Its obligation is recognised by those believers whom neither the adornment of property nor the coolness of the eyes produced by children can turn away from it. Allah, the Glorified, says:

Men whom neither merchandise nor any sale diverteth from the remembrance of Allah and constancy in prayer and paying the poor-rate; ... (Qur'an. 24:37)
Even after receiving assurance of Paradise, the Messenger of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - used to exert himself for prayers because of Allah, the Glorified's command.

And enjoin prayer on thy followers, and adhere thou steadily unto it, ... (Qur'an, 20:132).

Then the Holy Prophet used to enjoin his followers to prayer and exert himself for it.

Another Hazrat Ali quote from nahjul balagha

Recommended prayers cannot attain the pleasures of Allah for you when obligatory prayers are left unattended.

Sermon 109
About Islam, the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Go ahead with the remembrance of Allah for it is the best remembrance, and long for that which He has promised to the pious, for His promise is the most true promise. Tread the course of the Prophet for it is the most distinguished course. Follow the sunnah of the Prophet for it is the most right of all behaviors. Learn the Qur'an for it is the fairest of discourses and understand it thoroughly for it is the best blossoming of hearts. Seek cure with its light for it is the cure for hearts. Recite it beautifully for it is the most beautiful narration. Certainly, a scholar who acts not according to his knowledge is like the off-headed ignorant who does not find relief from his ignorance, but on the learned the plea of Allah is greater and grief more incumbent, and he is more blameworthy before Allah.

Yes - so now you admit that the Prophet didn't follow the rules he set out for other Muslims
As far as I know - unlike Jesus who wasn't a christian - Mohammed was a MUSLIM - he followed Islam - so...how could he not follow his own injunctions?
Isn't that a fallacy?...or maybe there was no injunction - i have record of the Prophet praying 18+ times a day - there were days he spent over 20 hours praying - I don't see any muslim doing that in today's time - how come that isn't followed (source - Sira and Tabari and Muslim amongst others).

As for Najhul Balagha - nice reference - only problem is - you in your previous posts have negated the concept and the authority of Imamah - and now you're grasping at that straw to make a hollow point.
What you have failed to realize is that the Ismailies believe in an Imam of the Age and Time - the Noor of Ali is the same - however the Imam gives guidance according to the Age and Time - and as Ismailies - we follow the guidance of our present living Imam - Shah Karim - the holder of the noor.

Maybe that's what you didn't understand when you were an ismaili and kept on comparing Islam to it's 7th Century roots and wondered what's going on...

If we're going to stick those 7th Century roots than the forms of Faith will never evolve and we'll still be seeing 12 year old girls being married to 70 year old men.

Whilst the essence of the faith remains the same - the forms change according to the age and time and just as you have agreed that some ayahs of the Quran were contextual and for that period - we rely upon our Imam to interpret those for us.

No ismaili is forbidden from extra prayers - however our obligatory prayers are the 3x dua/salah that we recite.
oh and btw - we end up reciting 21 suras of the Quran in our 3 duas - and as per the sawab - we end up getting for reading 4 whole qurans.

let's see Surah Fateha 3x a day
and Suratul Ikhlas 3x a day.

Our dua is so simple that even a 6 year old child can recite it and a 75 year old elder can recite it...it can be recited anywhere - because Allah isn't dependent on hollow actions - but what is in the heart...and what is in intent.

Like I said - you left our faith - all the more power to you - go be happy in your search.
and let us wallow in our so called ignorance.

I think you must be woeing the day that i started responding to you.
Ya ALI Madad
Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:33 pm

zznoor wrote:Here are more

Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

Bijan Moeinian Therefore, be patient with them and worship your Lord before sunrise, before sunset, at night, as well as during the day; you will be pleased with your reward.

Faridul Haque Therefore (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), patiently forbear upon their speech, and praising your Lord proclaim His Purity, before the sun rises and before it sets; and proclaim His Purity at some times of the night and at the two ends of the day, in the hope that you be pleased. (*With the great reward from your Lord)

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah Therefore, be patient with what they say, and exalt with the praise of your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And in the watches of the night and at the edges of the day, exalt Him, so that you will be pleasing.

Maulana Muhammad Ali So bear patiently what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and glorify (Him) during the hours of the night and parts of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira So you be patient on what they say, and praise/glorify with your Lord's praise/gratitude/thanks, before the sun's ascent/rising, and before its decline/setting , and from the night's hours so praise/glorify, and the daytime's ends/edges, maybe/perhaps you accept/approve.

Sher Ali Bear patiently then what they say, and glorify thy Lord with HIS praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify HIM in the hours of the night and all parts of the day, that thou mayest find true happiness.

Rashad Khalifa Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) Then be patient over what they say, and praising your Lord proclaim His Holiness before the rising of the sun and before sun set, and proclaim His Holiness in the hours of the night and at the ends of the day, haply you may be pleased.

Amatul Rahman Omar Hence put up patiently with what they say and glorify your Lord with (His) praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting. And glorify (Him) during the hours of the night and at the ends of the day (in Prayers), that you may attain (real) happiness (and true bliss).

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali So bear patiently (O Muhammad SAW) what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day (an indication for the five compulsory congregational prayers), that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.

Edward Henry Palmer Bear patiently then what they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and at times in the night celebrate them; and at the ends of the day; haply thou mayest please (Him).

George Sale Wherefore do thou, O Mohammed, patiently bear that which they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun, and before the setting thereof, and praise him in the hours of the night, and in the extremities of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased with the prospect of receiving favour from God.

John Medows Rodwell Put up then with what they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the sunrise, and before its setting; and some time in the night do thou praise him, and in the extremes of the day, that thou haply mayest please Him.

N J Dawood (draft) Therefore bear with what they say. Give glory to your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. Praise Him night and day, so that you may find comfort.

New and/or Partial Translations, and works in progress

Sayyid Qutb Hence, bear with patience whatever they may say, and extol your Lordâ€™s limitless glory and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during the hours of the night as well as during the hours of the day, so that you may attain a state of contentment.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli So be patient with what they say, and glorify your Lord by praising Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during (some) hours of the night also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be pleased.

They are from
islamawakened.com/quran/20/130/default.htm

So which ones do you follow - coz all of them insert words that aren't in the arabic translation you put up - are they reading a different edition of the Quran?

Oh and btw - most of them - come to the consensus of Prayers at both ends of hte day - before rising and after setting sun and at night.
Very few of them - prayer in the noon...or bring up a number

These are all upto individual interpretation.

You already put an arabic translation which made my point...so why even bring all of these others up? help me make my point more?

Thanks

Shams

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:34 pm

Also I thought you didn't accept the notion of Imamah - or now you do? And if you do accept it - then there is no argument - because as I've stated - we follow Ali - aka Shah Karim.

What exactly do you follow? has it changed to Shia Ithna Asheri? or are you a Sunni? ...since you change arguments based upon where you copy/paste from?

Salat is in Quran
5 Salat is in Quran
Wadu required is in Quran
Facing qibla is in Quran
Ruku and Sajood order is in Quran
Jumma prayers are is in Quran
Fasting in Ramadan is in Quran
Hajj and Umra is is in Quran

Notion of Imamah or Khalifat is not in Quran

I am plain jane Muslimah

I pray 5 Salat do Wadu before and face qibla
Pray Jumma
Fast in Ramadan
Give Zakat
Have done umra and hajj
I am professional and own my own company with international staff.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:47 pm

zznoor wrote:
Also I thought you didn't accept the notion of Imamah - or now you do? And if you do accept it - then there is no argument - because as I've stated - we follow Ali - aka Shah Karim.

What exactly do you follow? has it changed to Shia Ithna Asheri? or are you a Sunni? ...since you change arguments based upon where you copy/paste from?
Salat is in Quran
5 Salat is in Quran
Wadu required is in Quran
Facing qibla is in Quran
Ruku and Sajood order is in Quran
Jumma prayers are is in Quran
Fasting in Ramadan is in Quran
Hajj and Umra is is in Quran

Notion of Imamah or Khalifat is not in Quran

I am plain jane Muslimah

I pray 5 Salat do Wadu before and face qibla
Pray Jumma
Fast in Ramadan
Give Zakat
Have done umra and hajj
I am professional and own my own company with international staff.

Good for you - I am happy for you.

Just as you claim 5x Salat is in the Quran - I claim that Imamat is in the Quran mentioned in very specific terms - IMAM-E-MUBEEN
Manifest Imam; Now that is my belief and my interpretation which I am entitled to -just as you are entitled to yours.

About being a sunni - you quoted Imam Ali - and tried to force that down our throat - meaning you accepted the notion of Imamah - or was that a battlefield tactic of hypocrisy to see if we'd crumble?

To me - there is 3x Salat in the Quran and there is the notion of Imamah and no mention of the 5 pillars - so that is the interpretation I choose to follow.

You are more than welcome to follow your interpretation and your choices of interpretations as they suit your life and your needs and your conveniences as you've made very apparent. By being unable to answer which school of jurisprudence you follow and which translator/interpreter you follow - since you posted a host of them - without sticking to a single one.

You follow Islam your way - I will follow it my way - and to me - my way is dictated by the Imam-e-Zamaan; because to me - he is Allah and he is Ali..
and if that makes me a non muslim in your eyes - go for it.
and at that point in time - i will implore you to follow the quran - your book - wherein it says - Surah Kafiroon
"To me mine - to you yours"
and if you come back and still argue with me - then you have to accept that I am entitled to my own interpretation of Islam.

First - understand what you're choosing to follow and why...before trying to establish yourself as a so called expert by copying and pasting.

All of the quranic quotes on 20:130 you've pasted are from a Sunni site - and 95% don't talk about the noon prayer - but rather endorse the 3x prayer.

This is a lost argument for you - coz you've stated yourself that you admit the PROPHET didn't always pray 5x a day sometimes for no reason at all...

And you claim that the Quran is uncorrupted; yet you yourself have pasted translations which have inserted words that aren't in the Quran - and you follow them...
and if you say - these are interpretations - and those people are allowed to have them - then so are we allowed to have our own.
Faith is individualistic - not collective.
Like I said - for me there is no Allah - only Ali; and I stick by that.
You have chosen your path - i have chosen mine

I wish you the best in your search for peace.
Ya Ali Madad.
Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:51 pm

zznoor wrote:
The issue is - she thinks I should follow it her way.
No brother follow your heart

A Muslim when he does not do obligatory Wadu,pray Salat/Namaz facing Qibla and do not fast in Ramadan is committing sin.
But when he denies all this he enters Kufr.

There are many ignorant Muslims who worship graves, kiss black stone for its Devine power. That should not reflect on people who know what Islam is.

Please do not make fun of Quran, Salat, fast in Ramadan, Zakat and Hajj if one can afford it.
These are fundamental of Islam of Allah his Rasul and Imamam Ali
Salaam (peace)

And that is my choice and my sin.

you have done your duty by warning and notifying me. If i change my mind about these activities - i will call you.
Thank you for your time.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:38 pm

zznoor wrote:Here is word by word

فَٱصْبِرْ
So be patient
عَلَىٰ
over
مَا
what
يَقُولُونَ
they say
وَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
بِحَمْدِ
with praise
رَبِّكَ
(of) your Lord
قَبْلَ
before
طُلُوعِ
(the) rising
ٱلشَّمْسِ
(of) the sun
وَقَبْلَ
and before
غُرُوبِهَاۖ
its setting;
وَمِنْ
and from
ءَانَآىِٕ
(the) hours
ٱلَّيْلِ
(of) the night,
فَسَبِّحْ
and glorify
وَأَطْرَافَ
(at the) ends
ٱلنَّهَارِ
(of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ
so that you may
تَرْضَىٰ
be satisfied.
﴿١٣٠﴾

From
allahsquran.com/learn/#s20d7q1t0p1

Also - the word used for PRAYER in the QURAN is SALAT or DUA.

This translation and the Arabic doesn't say Salah or Prayer.

Shams

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:12 pm

My goodness, some XYZ person started this topic and we don't hear from him after first 2 pages

Noor said :

Salat is in Quran
5 Salat is in Quran
Wadu required is in Quran
Facing qibla is in Quran
Ruku and Sajood order is in Quran
Jumma prayers are is in Quran
Fasting in Ramadan is in Quran
Hajj and Umra is is in Quran

There are other things also mentioned in quran which most so called "muslims" ignore...Like for example sending durood on rasool[saw] and his progeny and so on

You said something about qiblah, in the same quran allah[swt] says :

"We inspired Moses and his brother: "Establish homes in Egypt for your people then, render your homes to be Qiblah’s and observe the Salat. Give the news to the believers."

10:87

Brother shamsB bhai, tret, agakhani, I have a question regarding H.Haroon[as]... Was he an imam during his lifetime ??? if YES then does that not make the house of current living imam as a qiblah ???

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:00 pm

There are other things also mentioned in quran which most so called "muslims" ignore...Like for example sending durood on rasool[saw] and his progeny and so on

Do you know how Salat is prayed?
If Muslim pray salat regularly (unfortunately most do not) then Darood is prayed in last rakat of every fird,Sunna and nafl prayer.

For example
Isha:
i) Four rakat sunnat e Ghair Mokadda (Optional but spiritually beneficial)
One Durood
ii) Four rakat Fard
One Durood
iii) Two Rakat Sunnat Mokadda
One Durood
iv) Two rakat Nafil (Optional but spiritually beneficial)
One Durood
v) Three rakat Wajib
One Durood
vi) Two rakat Nafil (Optional but spiritually beneficial)
One Durood

so total six Durood
Got it?

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:14 pm

I am not sure what we are trying to prove, guys?
In my humble opinion, we are all better off leaving this discussion here as we don't come to any resolution.

My last say is this:

We ismailies DO BELIEVE in the 5 pillars of Islam, but we have different interpretation of them. That's why pluralism is of immense importance that we should -- as ummah -- tolerate each other's perspective and interpretation of Islam. After all what's common denominator amongst us [Shi'a and Sunnie] is much greater [believe in the oneness of almighty Allah and attesting in the Shahadah] than our differences.

Our confrontations gives one more reason for non muslims to point a finger on us [umma] on not being civilized and tolerant.

May God guide us all to sirat-ul-mustaquim.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:38 pm

ShamsB wrote: If we're going to stick those 7th Century roots than the forms of Faith will never evolve and we'll still be seeing 12 year old girls being married to 70 year old men.

I am not sure if understand what you are trying to imply here, brother? I would certainly appreciate a little elaboration please.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:49 pm

Ya Ali Madad;
Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) was sent to delver message of God and GLORIFY N PRAISE OF ALLAH by preaching and sermons and some of it MAY BE in physical act of offering prayers.

Does the word glorify/praise specifically and legally means Salaat,rakat.namaz,etc. and nothing else.
I WILL CHALLENGE IT LEGALLY.
Allah has said Quran it self is in Baatin.
None again NONE of the scholars were ever blessed with Baatin who have translated the Quran.
Here it is simple layman's language an instruction to Prophet Mohammed
how he should go about preaching (GLORIFYING) as a full time preacher with NOT EXACT TIMING but in periods of the day n night for spreading PIAGHAM of ALI=lah+Allah.

This Ayat was specifically for Prophet on how to go about the mandate given to HIM and not an executive order to mankind to mimic the prophet.
NONE OF THE QUACKS HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE WORDS OR THE CO RELATION OF THE THE WORDS. If a boss of the company gives specific high level instruction to the Manager,It does not mean it for the all the staff in that company under the manager. THE WHOLE WORLD IS IGNORANT AND ARE MAKING THOSE FALSE N INCORRECT TRANSLATION AS BENCHMARK TO EXPRESS ONE'S CLEVERNESS.
the job n absolute mandate of prophet was to glorify Allah in many hours of living time.
His act of praise and glorifying is taken as so called Namaz by ABSOLUTE FO0LS (DISASTERS) on this earth.

THEY ARE UNFIT EVEN TO BE GIVEN QURAN to read iT IN the first place.

if any Ayat is explained by a Baatin graced entity like the Pirs,Khusraw
and likes of Rumi n Shams Tabriz.( these i would call Rasikunfililm)
Just compare one Ayat explained by them and one done by bunch of stinky quacks, The difference is visible.
This is my firm and irrevocable take on on Ayat 20:130.
IT IS NOT NOT AT ALL AN EXECUTIVE ORDER TO MANKIND a normal being but A SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION TO PROPHET not a normal but super being person to execute his duties.
In word of Imam SMS.to disregard the braying and barking of the Zahiris

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:51 pm

ShamsB wrote: ... because to me - he is Allah and he is Ali..

What amazes me, that zznoor doesn't have any issue about this statement, and yet she's so offended about number of prayers per day.

I just want to say something here, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone's idea or belief.

MHI in 1975 approved a resolution at a Paris Conference of Ismaili leadership. Two major resolutions came from this Conference.

The first was that the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].

The second resolution was that the Imam is to be explained as the "mazhar" of God and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication between God and man.

I have seen most of my spiritual brothers that easily and directly say that Imam is God, but I guess we have to make the distinction of God Himself and His place of manifestation [locus of Manifestation] or "Mazhar".

Now, if one considers Imam to be God, then it would one's personal believe, and not necessarily in accordance with Ismailie thoughts, according to what MHI has approved.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:55 pm

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad;
Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) was sent to delver message of God and GLORIFY N PRAISE OF ALLAH by preaching and sermons and some of it MAY BE in physical act of offering prayers.

Does the word glorify/praise specifically and legally means Salaat,rakat.namaz,etc. and nothing else.
I WILL CHALLENGE IT LEGALLY.
Allah has said Quran it self is in Baatin.
None again NONE of the scholars were ever blessed with Baatin who have translated the Quran.
Here it is simple layman's language an instruction to Prophet Mohammed
how he should go about preaching (GLORIFYING) as a full time preacher with NOT EXACT TIMING but in periods of the day n night for spreading PIAGHAM of ALI=lah+Allah.

This Ayat was specifically for Prophet on how to go about the mandate given to HIM and not an executive order to mankind to mimic the prophet.
NONE OF THE QUACKS HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE WORDS OR THE CO RELATION OF THE THE WORDS. If a boss of the company gives specific high level instruction to the Manager,It does not mean it for the all the staff in that company under the manager. THE WHOLE WORLD IS IGNORANT AND ARE MAKING THOSE FALSE N INCORRECT TRANSLATION AS BENCHMARK TO EXPRESS ONE'S CLEVERNESS.
the job n absolute mandate of prophet was to glorify Allah in many hours of living time.
His act of praise and glorifying is taken as so called Namaz by ABSOLUTE FO0LS (DISASTERS) on this earth.

THEY ARE UNFIT EVEN TO BE GIVEN QURAN to read iT IN the first place.

if any Ayat is explained by a Baatin graced entity like the Pirs,Khusraw
and likes of Rumi n Shams Tabriz.( these i would call Rasikunfililm)
Just compare one Ayat explained by them and one done by bunch of stinky quacks, The difference is visible.
This is my firm and irrevocable take on on Ayat 20:130.
IT IS NOT NOT AT ALL AN EXECUTIVE ORDER TO MANKIND a normal being but A SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION TO PROPHET not a normal but super being person to execute his duties.
In word of Imam SMS.to disregard the braying and barking of the Zahiris

Where is the LIKE button.

nicely put together!!!

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:02 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:My goodness, some XYZ person started this topic and we don't hear from him after first 2 pages

Noor said :

Salat is in Quran
5 Salat is in Quran
Wadu required is in Quran
Facing qibla is in Quran
Ruku and Sajood order is in Quran
Jumma prayers are is in Quran
Fasting in Ramadan is in Quran
Hajj and Umra is is in Quran
There are other things also mentioned in quran which most so called "muslims" ignore...Like for example sending durood on rasool[saw] and his progeny and so on

You said something about qiblah, in the same quran allah[swt] says :

"We inspired Moses and his brother: "Establish homes in Egypt for your people then, render your homes to be Qiblah’s and observe the Salat. Give the news to the believers."

10:87

Brother shamsB bhai, tret, agakhani, I have a question regarding H.Haroon[as]... Was he an imam during his lifetime ??? if YES then does that not make the house of current living imam as a qiblah ???

In my personal opinion, role of H Haroon to Musa (AS) was as equal and important to the role of Maula Ali to Prophet Mohammad! I am not sure if we can call Him Imam, but as far as his role is concern to guide humanity, is absolutely. I believe H Haroon was Asas [There were other 6 Asas]. So comparatively we could say H Haroon's role to H Musa is the same as the role of Maula Ali to Prophet Mohammad.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:11 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
"We inspired Moses and his brother: "Establish homes in Egypt for your people then, render your homes to be Qiblah’s and observe the Salat. Give the news to the believers."

10:87

This was for Jews who were wondering in desert for 40 years and were afraid to practice religion openly.
For Muslims Prophet received clear instruction for Qibla and only prophet can receive change. According to Islamic belief Muhammad is Final Prophet.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:55 pm

Ismaili believe that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet and there is no Prophet after him. This is also my belief. The Belief that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet is clear in the text of the Ismaili Constitution.

But to be considered Muslim, one has only to say Muhammad (PBUH) is the Prophet. One need not say he is the last on. So when you say "according to Islamic belief", you do not really know what you are talking about and in those cases, better remain silent and keep repeating the Shahada. which is the base of Islam. Thank you.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:07 pm

Admin wrote:Ismaili believe that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet and there is no Prophet after him. This is also my belief. The Belief that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last Prophet is clear in the text of the Ismaili Constitution.

But to be considered Muslim, one has only to say Muhammad (PBUH) is the Prophet. One need not say he is the last on. So when you say "according to Islamic belief", you do not really know what you are talking about and in those cases, better remain silent and keep repeating the Shahada. which is the base of Islam. Thank you.

Who said Ismailis do not believe that Muhammad is last Prophet. Stop reading too much.
All I was trying to tell that Allah ordered Muslims to face Kaaba and nobody can change it since there will be no Prophet after Muhammad SAW.

You are right Shahada makes you Muslim but there are other things along with it and this debate will go on and on.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:54 pm

Ya Ali Madad:
In any debate on theology there are no winners.Each is limited to its level of interpretation and consider opposite person ignorant,fool etc.
Any educated and civilized person should debate what is the ground reality
today with the education and understanding of the mankind today on any topic which can be SEEN, understood, and opinion formed by living people with wisdom and judgement.
Only escapist,coward or a historian would like live n talk of the past,which
is a PAST and cannot be practically lived toady.Also history of the past do not have living witness in today's time.In legal terminology it is useless.

Has anybody done any research on all the Quran reader and translator.
who has inspite of clear word of Allah as 'Imam-e-Mubeen' have translated knowingly as 'Kitab e Mubeen'.
Can anybody do research of all these writers who misinterpreted and manipulated the Allah's word.

How did they Die? How were the last 7 years of their life before Death?

Any Disliker of Ismaili religion must not escape into statement of the deads rather see the quality of Ismailis led by an Imam and compare the quality of Shariatis led by street side Moulvi/Imam in todays time with own eyes to see and read about them.
Then debate of present beliefs and non belief of todays time and NOT the era of the past.
in India a recent article stated that 20% Muslims pray only once a week.1o% do not pray at all.
It means other 70% percent may be praying 2-35 times a week.
If the average of all is taken it comes to max to max 2 namaz per day per muslim,other countries could be more or less.
what X times is offered today is seen and to believed rather than harping
on 5x obligated 1400 years back.
The living data should debated and not statements of the Deads.
we and our children are living TODAY and for TOMORROW and NOT living in the era of 1400 years back.
so the statement of 5 x prayers is a technically a dead statement of 1400 years back which even Muslims do not follow and value it today.2x prayer is the seen ground reality today.DEBATE ON THAT.
Today Muslims do not have time to face the problem of their domestic issues n they would be least interested in debating of facing the Qibla again a ground reality.

To ShamsB:Ya Ali Madad.

I really appreciate your knowledge of Arabic language n explanation from your own mind and I presume you are a PhD in Islamic studies/etc.
On any Quran Ayats you take the lead along with other scholars and leave the Final salvo to me.Mouwla ALI bless you and your family

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:46 am

I agree with you that reality is very subjective and can be biased, based on personal preferences, if not backed up by reasonable and logical arguments. However, I beg to differ on the topic of 'history is useless'. I believe History is very important, for it can tell us of where we came from and who we are. It's true that we must live in today's day and age and what we live now is more important that what is past. But, we must not completely cross what was "past".

About Qur'an translation, I would like to say that translation isn't the problem here. Because translators simply translate the text [words] or Qur'an. Example, Water[English], Pani[Urdu], L'aue[French] etc... The problem arises when people try to do the Tah'weel of Qur'an in their own way. Now, this is very important that only Imam of the time can correctly do the Tah'weel of the Qur'an according to time and space! I think this is the biggest conflict amongst different sects of Islam. Most of mainstream ummah still beholds the Tah'weel that was done during the era of The Prophet; but us[Isma'ilis] believe that MHI is the carrier of the same Nur of the Prophet was, and have the divine power and authority to do the Tah'weel of Qur'an correctly in accordance with the time and space.

If we look at other communities, they are reaching space, and look at us, trying to prove who's right in doing X number of time prayers per day. I think there are wayyy important issues at hand today than to worry which direction to face or how many times to pray. I hope zznoor[and others alike] wake up one day and start worrying about important stuff that this.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:03 pm

noor said

This was for Jews who were wondering in desert for 40 years and were afraid to practice religion openly.
For Muslims Prophet received clear instruction for Qibla and only prophet can receive change. According to Islamic belief Muhammad is Final Prophet.

It's not about jews or christians here, the point that I was trying to make is that when the house of H.Musa[as] and H.Haroon[as] can be used as qibla to perform salaat, why can't ismailis use the house of ahle bait as their qibla ???

The very same quran also says that one should not look left or right but should have faith in his/her religion.

On the day of judgement allah[swt] will not ask zznoor why she used the restroom with her buttocks facing the direction of kaaba....it is your amaal that will come in handy and not where and how you were facing kaaba.