Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:08 pm

One more thing please Admin since Tret ask me therefore let me explain him before we back to the thread.

Brother Tret and all Qasida lovers,

Go ahead and find out in as many as qasidas
How this universal was created?
second
Find out this from qasidas; How to sit in Bandagi?

Waiting for your answer.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:18 pm

Above is my open chalange to not only Tret only buy every one in this forum including zznoor and shiraz, nuseri, admin,shamsb , starmunir a_27826 .

Zznoor please tel me when this universe will end as per your quran?

these all info available in ginan.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:46 pm

Admin wrote:Most of the Qasidas are part of what we call devotional litterature. The equivalens in the Indian Subcontinent would be kawalis and Geets of Mowla ji Shaan

The Qasidas such as those written by our Imams, are considered not devotional litterature but sacred litterature.

The Ginans written by the"Satadhari" Pirs (Hujjat ul-Imam) appointed by the Imam also are part of the sacred litterature.

There are no khoja Pirs. Over the years, the Imam have either kept the Light of Piratan with themselves or pointed to us the "Satadhari" Pirs which were all either Persians, Arabs or Turkish. They were all from Imam's descendants.

This of course this is a diversion so lets come back to the thread of this discussion.

Admin brother, you are mixing Madha with Qasida. Madha is a genre of poetry in Persian which is devotional for the Prophet and also it could be for kings leaders etc..., however, Qasidas, in Persian [especially, in Ismailie tariqa] have philosophical, theological and ethical purposes, which exclusively revolves around spiritual/religious matters.

I know the content of Qasida so I can talk for it, however, I don't know Ginan's language so I can't say anything, but I DO HAVE immense respect for Ginans and I enjoy listening to it at JK, even if I don't understand the words.

To agakhani: The concept of creation and other metaphysical concepts are explained in other genre of work of our Pir's Dai's and Imams. Qasida is only one genre of work, which you can still find deep and spiritual/philosophical contents.

I am not sure why some of our ismailie brothers get the feeling of one concept should be superior to other?

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:47 pm

agakhani wrote: Brother Tret and all Qasida lovers,

What do you consider yourself? Qasida lover? or Qasida hater?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:23 pm

agakhani wrote:Above is my open chalange to not only Tret only buy every one in this forum including zznoor and shiraz, nuseri, admin,shamsb , starmunir a_27826 .

Zznoor please tel me when this universe will end as per your quran?

these all info available in ginan.

Brother
It's not my Quran, it belongs to all sects of Islam.
Including Ismailis ( Until MHI reveals real Quran)
Being Muslim please do not mock Quran and compare it with any other books.

Here is Ayat of Quran

79:42-46]
They ask you, "When will the Hour come to stay?"22 (But) it is not for you to tell its time. Its knowledge rests only with your Lord. You are only a warner to him who fears it.23 The day these people see it, they will feel as though they had stayed (in the world or in the state of death) only for the afternoon of a day or its forenoon.24

Comment 22
The disbelievers of Makkah asked this question of the Holy Prophet over and over again. By this they did not mean to know the time and date of the coming of Resurrection but to mock it. (For further explanation, see E.N. 35 of Surah Al-Mulk).
I hope you are not issuing Challange to mock Quran

Please post time and date as per Ginan

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:17 am

agakhani wrote:Zznoor please tel me when this universe will end as per your quran?

these all info available in ginan.

Quran does not say when the "Hour" will come.

033:063 The people will question you concerning the Hour. Say: 'The knowledge of it is only with God; what shall make you know? Haply the Hour is nigh.'

So when will be the "Hour" according to Ginan ?

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:50 am

Ya Ali Madad:
Bunch of Dai's n scholars in Persia fantasize how God n world came into being?going deep into birthday of the world.

and also in Indian subcontinent fantasize the Death day of the world.
when said in Quran ."He knows it".

With Nurani bandwidth blessings also comes insight of astronomy n cosmology and many of it finding could be 'predictions'.

By virtue of Insight(deep understanding) some may have exceeded their brief and acted as GOD with powers within.

the works related to Persian doctrine and Doomsdays parts of it are deemed to be unfit of readings in both the traditions.
It is not easy for any lay man to understand complex statements of Sufis overtaking the prerogative of GOD by themselves on Birth n Death of whole humanity.

In present just overlooking one alphabet in a word that is 'Men' and 'A Man'
led to false false foundation n leading to incorrect conclusion,
So you land of mistaking the shoe shop managers as the one absolute owner of chains of shops across the world.

(pass the buck to him if shoes n sandals look unfit).
I do acknowledge the Persian doctrine of creation and not subscribe to it in totality.
So it is better to understand it rather can carried away by few words of 'Aql E Kul' in Persian traditions and assumed Doomday dates in Ginans
in Khoja traditions.
The living part/period of human is important (mind,body,soul) n it doing (aql,jism.ruh) and
n becomes history and not his birth date or formation process in a womb
or his Death date ( unless gained martyrdom for the cause of humanity
i.e Jesus.Imam Hussien.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:24 am

Those 'bunch of Dai's' were by the way chosen by our very own Imam of the Time. And their 'fantasy' were to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. Their 'fantasy' explains/addresses some of the most IMPORTANT questions that others ponder and have no clue where to start! I mean why is it important to know and understand how it all started? Those 'bunch of Dais' explained those 'fantasy' philosophically and proven their point rock solid. Now, you claim that "Persian doctrine" [It is not Persian doctrine, it is Ismaili doctrine for your information] is deemed unfit; I had asked you before already, and now repeating once again, it is deemed unfit by who? please make an authentic/valid reference, as opposed to making things up.. You [anyone] is welcome to subscribe/unsubscribe to whatever they wish; in the journey of soul-searching, one is not bound to sing up for any thing; it is purely a personal experience and journey. You and I don't have to agree or disagree. If/when you know, you would also know what is the relation of us with the creator and why (most importantly HOW) should we seek salvation, which is the purpose of us humans. While love (ishq) is THE most important thing to have when it comes to understanding the divine, but knowledge of tawhid must come first, to know what/who to love?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:35 am

As per my opinion there are big difference between Qasida and ginans.

In Arabic and Persian (Farsi) language Qasida used to be written to praise king or some one extra ordinary persons like our Imams, nobleman or Almighty Allah.

The typically Qasida runs more than 50 lines.
the classic form of Qasida maintain a single elaborate meter throughout the poem.

While ginan in Sanskrit, Pakrut, Hindi and gujarati language ginan(Gnyan) means knowledge, and in our ginans we find information, guidance and details on almost all the aspects.
Let me quote some farmans of our Imams

'ginans are tafsir of Quran ' Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)

now let see what our current MHI said about Ginans in 1960 in Dacca'
; he described the ginans as a "wonderful tradition".

"I feel that unless we are able to continue this wonderful tradition . . . we will lose some of our past which is most important to us and must be kept throughout our lives." Dacca, 17.10.1960

Four years later, he reminded jamats in Karachi of the unique importance of the tradition:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964

These farmans you find in this websites so there is no need to hide them.

I listen Qasidas in JK and read Qasidas on and off, but be honest with you I have find many information in ginans which information you can not find in any Qasidas.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:56 am

Please post time and date as per Ginan

So when will be the "Hour" according to Ginan ?

The answer of above questions are in various ginans ( not those 20-25 ginans which are reciting in JK) but you have to dig even more, there are many ginans which are still not published and it is still in original manuscript ( in hand writing) and there are thousand ginans still available in 'KHOJKI' language which are loaded with all kind information which you asked above; currently there are 600 ginans and 80+ GRANTHS available so, read those 'GINANS & GRANTHS' to find the answer of above questions.

No excuse but I swear that there are answer of above and many other questions but you have to find that; this is advance explanation to you all before sister Noor tell me 'good excuse" no sister this is not an excuse , it is true but I will not post it here.

MAIN APNI SONE KE JAAL PANI ME KYO PHENKU'

I received many e-mails for this kind information and I have given this kind information some of them in past, whom I know that they are true Ismailis and never take it wrong and will not propaganda against ginans.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:20 pm

agakhani wrote:
Please post time and date as per Ginan

So when will be the "Hour" according to Ginan ?
The answer of above questions are in various ginans ( not those 20-25 ginans which are reciting in JK) but you have to dig even more, there are many ginans which are still not published and it is still in original manuscript ( in hand writing) and there are thousand ginans still available in 'KHOJKI' language which are loaded with all kind information which you asked above; currently there are 600 ginans and 80+ GRANTHS available so, read those 'GINANS & GRANTHS' to find the answer of above questions.

No excuse but I swear that there are answer of above and many other questions but you have to find that; this is advance explanation to you all before sister Noor tell me 'good excuse" no sister this is not an excuse , it is true but I will not post it here.

MAIN APNI SONE KE JAAL PANI ME KYO PHENKU'

I received many e-mails for this kind information and I have given this kind information some of them in past, whom I know that they are true Ismailis and never take it wrong and will not propaganda against ginans.

Isko kehte he

NAACHNA NAHI TO ANGAN TEDHA

MAIN APNI SONE KE JAAL PANI ME KYO PHENKU

Why do you raise this subject?
To demonstrate your superior knowledge?
To demean Quran and Islam?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:57 pm

Why I raised question?

I am not talking about Tret, Nuseri or Shiraz they are not ignore importance of ginans( read what Tret wrote about ginan ) and look at you once an Ismaili you are doing what damn Mullah says to you!.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:04 pm

agakhani wrote:Why I raised question?

Because "AAP JAISE BEVKOOFO KO PATA CHALE KI GINAN KYA CHIJ HAI!
I am not talking about Tret, Nuseri or Shiraz they are not ignore importance of ginans( read what Tret wrote about ginan ) and look at you once an Ismaili you are doing what damn Mullah says to you!.

Ginan are unique to Khoja Ismailis.i know that and will not criticize here on this site.
They have no value to Shia and Sunni Muslims, who have Quran plus Ahadith.

Brother you are full of
Salaam

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:45 pm

agakhani wrote:As per my opinion there are big difference between Qasida and ginans.

In Arabic and Persian (Farsi) language Qasida used to be written to praise king or some one extra ordinary persons like our Imams, nobleman or Almighty Allah.

Ginans (Urdu: گنان, Gujarati: ગિનાન) are devotional hymns or poems recited by Shia Ismaili Muslims.
It was originally an oral rendition mostly by Pirs, first among whom to come to South Asia was Pir Satgurnoor in the 12th century. Ginans are composed in many languages of South Asia, especially Gujarati, Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi and many more . They are based on Verses from the Quran. Like Ginans, Qaseedas are recited in Arabic, Persian or Tajik by Ismailis in Central Asia, Iran and Syria.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:49 pm

tret wrote:
agakhani wrote:As per my opinion there are big difference between Qasida and ginans.

In Arabic and Persian (Farsi) language Qasida used to be written to praise king or some one extra ordinary persons like our Imams, nobleman or Almighty Allah.
Ginans (Urdu: گنان, Gujarati: ગિનાન) are devotional hymns or poems recited by Shia Ismaili Muslims.
It was originally an oral rendition mostly by Pirs, first among whom to come to South Asia was Pir Satgurnoor in the 12th century. Ginans are composed in many languages of South Asia, especially Gujarati, Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi and many more . They are based on Verses from the Quran. Like Ginans, Qaseedas are recited in Arabic, Persian or Tajik by Ismailis in Central Asia, Iran and Syria.

Ginan also have traces Hindu mythology.
Pirs wrote and sang them to penetrate Hindu merchant community.
Some of Ginans are worshipfull of Imams and that will not be accepted by mainstream Muslims.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:53 pm

"AAP JAISE BEVKOOFO KO PATA CHALE KI GINAN KYA CHIJ HAI!

Who taught you manners brother?
Shame on him/her

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:13 pm

Interesting point How and why Ginans were composed
Probably to convert Hindus by mixing their beliefs with Islamic beliefs!!!

Here from
THE KHOJA CASE 1866 - A Paraphrase
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29458

The peculiar tenets (principles) of the Ismailis with regard to the Imamate, imposed upon them a peculiar reason for practising 'TAKIAH' in all countries within the sway of the Suni Caliphs. This long enforced habit grew at last into a second nature and the practice of Takiah became universal among the Ismailis, the offspring of persecution and fear.

The other peculiarity of the Ismailis viz., of assuming or admitting the truth of the greater portion of the religious principles of those whom they wished to convert to their own is illustrated by Silvestre de Sacy (Religion des Druzes, vol. i. Introduction p.148. This is also confirmed by the KITUB-AL-SIYASET an Ismaili work of authority.

In short, Ismaili Dais were instructed how to convert e.g, "If it be a Christian he hopes to 'bring over' he must expatiate on the obstinacy of the Jews and ignorance of the Mussalmans, must profess the reverence for all the chief articles of the Christian creed, but gently hint that they are symbolic and point to a deeper meaning to which the Ismaili system alone can supply the key. He may suggest that the Christians have somewhat misinterpreted the doctrine of the paraclete. That a Paraclete, then is, and that it is to this the true Paraclete - that the Dai or Missionary would lead his enquiring friend".
Two points emerge

(1) Ismailis habitually enjoined and practised Takiah.

(2) Their Dais or missionaries were directed to convert by assuming, to a greater extent the religious standpoint of those whom they wished to bring over to their own faith. (once again I wish to remind the reader to keep these points in mind as having an important bearing on the case).

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:42 pm

zznoor wrote :

Interesting point How and why Ginans were composed
Probably to convert Hindus by mixing their beliefs with Islamic beliefs!!!

Noor, the word Hindu is extracted from word "HINDUSTAN"...Just like we call pakistani as PAKLA..Just like PAKLA is not a religon samething goes with HINDUS...what is the actual name of hindu religion do you know ???

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:29 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:zznoor wrote :

Interesting point How and why Ginans were composed
Probably to convert Hindus by mixing their beliefs with Islamic beliefs!!!
Noor, the word Hindu is extracted from word "HINDUSTAN"...Just like we call pakistani as PAKLA..Just like PAKLA is not a religon samething goes with HINDUS...what is the actual name of hindu religion do you know ???

If you ask Indian, what is your religion?
Answer would be one of this
Hindu, Jain, Muslim, Sikh, Chiristian or Tribal religion.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:35 pm

I forgot Parsees

Hindu: refers to an identity associated with the philosophical, religious and cultural systems that are indigenous to the Indian subcontinent. In common use today, it refers to an adherent of Hinduism. The two common forms that represent Hinduism are Shaivism and Vaishnavism.

tereishqnachaya · Post by **tereishqnachaya** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:29 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:zznoor wrote :

Interesting point How and why Ginans were composed
Probably to convert Hindus by mixing their beliefs with Islamic beliefs!!!
Noor, the word Hindu is extracted from word "HINDUSTAN"...Just like we call pakistani as PAKLA..Just like PAKLA is not a religon samething goes with HINDUS...what is the actual name of hindu religion do you know ???

Sanatana Dharma...Even followers of Hinduism call themselves Hindu though...

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:11 pm

Sanatana Dharma...Even followers of Hinduism call themselves Hindu though...

So correct me if I'm wrong but don't the meaning of SANATANA= ETERNAL ???

If yes, then were our pirs actually trying to convert hindus into muslims [khojas] or were they tring to show those who lost their way the true SATPANTH PATH ???

zznoor which one is it ???

tereishqnachaya · Post by **tereishqnachaya** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:08 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
Sanatana Dharma...Even followers of Hinduism call themselves Hindu though...
So correct me if I'm wrong but don't the meaning of SANATANA= ETERNAL ???

If yes, then were our pirs actually trying to convert hindus into muslims [khojas] or were they tring to show those who lost their way the true SATPANTH PATH ???

zznoor which one is it ???

Oh, this is semantics. The Pirs were doing both.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:55 pm

zznoor wrote :

Probably to convert Hindus by mixing their beliefs with Islamic beliefs!!!

Noor,

1] Were they mixing the eternal faith [sanatana] with true faith [sath panth] or

2] True faith [sathpanth] with eternal [sanatana] ??

which one is correct according to you ??

sogold · Post by **sogold** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:19 am

Thanks Samramzam,
There are many Hadith books available in market but I will suggest you to read Mishkat-ul-Masabih (4 volumes) it is available in English and other languages too this book is very authentic and you wouldn't find any unauthentic hadiths in it.
Besides above book you can also read
1.Sahih Bukhari, collected by Imam Bukhari (d. 870), includes 7275 ahadith
2.Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875), includes 9200 ahadith
3.Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
4.Sunan Abu Dawood, collected by Abu Dawood (d. 888)
5.Jami al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
6.Sunan ibn Majah, collected by Ibn Majah (d. 8icon_cool.gif

Sogold - founder gia ca phe truc tuyen - xem gia ca phe hom nay