Farman on Homosexuality?

[hungama25]

If you don't understand what it ACTUALLY means to be a homosexual, you can hardly make claims that it is wrong. Your reasoning for why homosexuality is 'wrong' from a logical standpoint seems to cater to heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, with more of a 'why not' attitude. And I can agree that the perspective you preach is wrong, however, that is NOT the homosexual perspective.

i totally understand what you trying to say my brother but that love/lust or whatever you call it towards same gender is haram in islam because in long run that love turns into lust !!

and regarding bisexuals, brother again just like alcohol even that is haram

brother you take short cut or long either way you lost

There is an aspect of emotional love, which as I said is the same you and I would have with a woman we love, and to tie that feeling with lust simply because it is what homosexuals experience is wrong and it demeans the notion of finding true love

with woman its absolutely legal brother, allah[swt] gave us thumbs up for that but with same sex thats satans work and since you are the messiah that satan is you my brother

and with woman i mean you future wife, your life partner

[a1337]

So you just lust after women, if that's your mentality, you have a lot of issues you need to work through. But not all people lust, homosexuals included, and you seem to have problems accepting that, perhaps if you had any concept of respect you'd understand that.

And guess what, it's legal in 5 states now in the US because the ban against gay marriage IS unconstitutional.

And if you're going to continue acting like a total degenerate, trying to mock me and use emoticons instead of conversing like adults, I'm not going to have this argument with you. You can't rebut my arguments so you resort to insults, it's obvious you have no real arguments anymore.

[hungama25]

So you just lust after women, if that's your mentality, you have a lot of issues you need to work through. But not all people lust, homosexuals included, and you seem to have problems accepting that, perhaps if you had any concept of respect you'd understand that.

ofcourse all straight man lust for woman because they aren't gay like you..and the problem is not with them because they're not going against the law of nature, the problem is with gays like you.

And guess what, it's legal in 5 states now in the US because the ban against gay marriage IS unconstitutional.

talk about proofs dumbhead and not about certain countries who bow down against fags because there is sooo much freedom

freedom to keep a weapon
freedom to smoke pot
freedom to join gay parades [ i know you love that ]

etc etc

And if you're going to continue acting like a total degenerate, trying to mock me and use emoticons instead of conversing like adults, I'm not going to have this argument with you. You can't rebut my arguments so you resort to insults, it's obvious you have no real arguments anymore.

I give respect only to those who deserve respect and for me gays like you doesnt belong to any gender[man/woman] nor they belong to any animal family so you aint gonna get any respect from me espically when you start selling the facts of quran for a miserable price

[TheMaw]

ofcourse all straight man lust for woman because they aren't gay like you..and the problem is not with them because they're not going against the law of nature, the problem is with gays like you.

You just contadicted yourself in the same (run-on) sentence.

Your rudeness and hostility continue to baffle me, but no matter, as you have no sense, no decency and no adab.

[hungama25]

You just contadicted yourself in the same (run-on) sentence.

contradicted ??
wake up lesbian sister !!!!!!!

Your rudeness and hostility continue to baffle me, but no matter, as you have no sense, no decency and no adab.

you forgot to mention your foolishness too sister because if you know decency/adab is shown towards those who deserve it and gays and lesbians like you have no respect then how can you expect me to respect you ?


you openly said you are an ismaili lesbian, you want me to show you adab ?

your gay friend is in favour of gay marriages in jamatkhana , you want me to show adab ?

you said quran is timebound which is not the case , you want me to show you adab ?

you made mockery of h.lut[as] and the incident which happened during his time, you want me to show you adab ?


you would get respect from gays and lesbians but not from me , i cannot go against the law of nature and welcome fagz like you because i cannot go against the quran/rasool[saw]/imam[as] and allah[swt]

[a1337]

Well you're a total moron Hungama, I've said numerous times that I'm a heterosexual and that I have no direct incentive with gays being welcomed or or banned. You are the BIGGEST homophobic creature I've encountered, it IS possible to treat homosexuals with respect WITHOUT being a homosexual.

I have already given you an example of homosexuality in nature, look at other species in the world that don't have the same intellect that we do. And the ratio is approximately the same as with humans, so perhaps you're just that stupid to make obvious connections.

Your own disrespect with Allah's creation is your own fault and if you can't express it on some level, get off the forums. You know absolutely nothing about love and I wouldn't be surprised if you were deep in the closet and you're in this major state of denial. I hope you follow your golden brick road to happiness... Allah will still love you if you're gay, don't worry.

[hungama25]

Well you're a total moron Hungama, I've said numerous times that I'm a heterosexual and that I have no direct incentive with gays being welcomed or or banned. You are the BIGGEST homophobic creature I've encountered, it IS possible to treat homosexuals with respect WITHOUT being a homosexual.

i seriously doubt it !!!
you are gay, just like gays have feelings for another man you got feelings for them which makes you one of them...i think i told you last time INSTEAD OF GIVING HEAD, USE YOUR HEAD, but unfortunately i forgot to realise that you are a brainless creature who thinks everything is halal in this world and rules laid down by quran is just for the time being

1] if its for the time being then why is alcohol which was haram some 1400 years ago is still haram in islamic world , including ismaili madhab ?

2] quran says sun and the moon revolve around its own orbit , did it changed now ???

3] allah said in holy quran

"God is the One Who created seven heavens and of the earth a similar number. The command descends upon them so that you know that God has power over all things and comprehends all things in His knowledge." (65:12)

go to nasa's official website and do some research , what was told some 1400 years ago has recently been discovered called GLIESE 581C

i can go on and on and on but for faggots like you its useless because for you quran is just like an ordinary book

5:57 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a MOCKERY or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

37:14 And, when they see a Sign, turn it to MOCKERY,

2:15 (Y. Ali) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).

this is what you and all other gays and lesbians including THE MAW is doing...

havent you say her starting a new topic ???

LOSING FAITH IN ISMAILISM , PLEASE HELP

this is the curse of allah[swt]

I have already given you an example of homosexuality in nature, look at other species in the world that don't have the same intellect that we do. And the ratio is approximately the same as with humans, so perhaps you're just that stupid to make obvious connections.

jaahil !!!!! talk about humankind, quran is the book for humankind and not aliens or animals

Your own disrespect with Allah's creation is your own fault and if you can't express it on some level, get off the forums. You know absolutely nothing about love and I wouldn't be surprised if you were deep in the closet and you're in this major state of denial. I hope you follow your golden brick road to happiness... Allah will still love you if you're gay, don't worry.

ofcourse you are allah's creation , even iblis was created by allah[swt], what happened ?? he went against allah[swt] and was KICKED out of heaven and so iblis promised that he will lead most of then astray and you are one of them

every child is born innocent and as he/she grows up they choose what they wanna become i.e they choose between the right and the wrong .

and thats your policy saying "allah will still love you if you're gay" , for your kind information he crushed your gay forefathers and gave them a brutal punishment....you are next !!!!

[TheMaw]

this is what you and all other gays and lesbians including THE MAW is doing... havent you say her starting a new topic ??? LOSING FAITH IN ISMAILISM , PLEASE HELP

I did not start that thread.

[a1337]

Of course Hungama... me treating others with human dignity makes me gay, no wonder why you're against homosexuals. And that also makes me a 'brainless' creature who 'thinks.' Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming english wasn't your first language, do you have a word for human dignity in your native tongue?

But seriously... while some things in the Quran are time bound, most of it gets lost in interpretation over time. Example, Alcohol is haraam. Simple phrase and seems straight forward enough, HOWEVER, the implication is the consumption of ethanol. I still rinse my mouth with mouthwash and put isopropyl alcohol on a cut.

The Quran said the Earth was created in 6 days and there were humans who were 120 feet tall, most people don't take that literally. Even YOU don't believe the Earth being created in 6 days was literal. So you're picking and choosing how to interpret things, you're inconsistent!

Now I could go on and on pointing out how you're reading the Quran with your own prejudice in mind and how Islam is a faith of intellect and how we should utilise all aspects of the world around us to improve ourselves, which means using things like logic, but for you, and your limited brain you won't bother.

Just in closing, I should point out that we are not going against Allah or the Quran and if you honestly believe that, it's probably because that's what you're doing. My questioning is a result of man's interpretation of the literal word of Allah, every person has their own unique perception, and the Quran is constant, so your argument isn't using the QUran, but your own opinion.

[ShamsB]

Of course Hungama... me treating others with human dignity makes me gay, no wonder why you're against homosexuals. And that also makes me a 'brainless' creature who 'thinks.' Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming english wasn't your first language, do you have a word for human dignity in your native tongue?

But seriously... while some things in the Quran are time bound, most of it gets lost in interpretation over time. Example, Alcohol is haraam. Simple phrase and seems straight forward enough, HOWEVER, the implication is the consumption of ethanol. I still rinse my mouth with mouthwash and put isopropyl alcohol on a cut.

The Quran said the Earth was created in 6 days and there were humans who were 120 feet tall, most people don't take that literally. Even YOU don't believe the Earth being created in 6 days was literal. So you're picking and choosing how to interpret things, you're inconsistent!

Now I could go on and on pointing out how you're reading the Quran with your own prejudice in mind and how Islam is a faith of intellect and how we should utilise all aspects of the world around us to improve ourselves, which means using things like logic, but for you, and your limited brain you won't bother.

Just in closing, I should point out that we are not going against Allah or the Quran and if you honestly believe that, it's probably because that's what you're doing. My questioning is a result of man's interpretation of the literal word of Allah, every person has their own unique perception, and the Quran is constant, so your argument isn't using the QUran, but your own opinion.

What you're failing to see is that just as you have your viewpoint on the Quran and that is your right - He has a right to his viewpoint however askew that it may be. Remember the Imam speaks of pluralism.
Definition of Pluralism : A condition in which numerous distinct ethnic, religious, or cultural groups are present and tolerated within a society.

Key word..Tolerated...we can agree to disagree, for the past few pages this thread hasn't revealed any new info, just prejudices.

[a1337]

Shams, you're absolutely right... your problem, you're responding to MY posts. I've only continued to be on this thread because Hungama keeps making attacks. I know you're against homosexuality so telling this Hungama would seem like you're going against your view point. But tell those who NEED to be told, because I've been fighting for tolerance while Hungama has been trying to ban gays and destroy the metaphorical bridges. I will always defend my honour so if Hungama continues to accuse me of being a homosexual, of going to hell, of hating the Quran, etc. I will respond even though I shouldn't bother with infantile posts like that.

[ShamsB]

Shams, you're absolutely right... your problem, you're responding to MY posts. I've only continued to be on this thread because Hungama keeps making attacks. I know you're against homosexuality so telling this Hungama would seem like you're going against your view point. But tell those who NEED to be told, because I've been fighting for tolerance while Hungama has been trying to ban gays and destroy the metaphorical bridges. I will always defend my honour so if Hungama continues to accuse me of being a homosexual, of going to hell, of hating the Quran, etc. I will respond even though I shouldn't bother with infantile posts like that.

Correction..I am not against homosexuality - neither do I deny the existence of it. My viewpoint is that engaging in it is a sin - engaging in Homosexual sex is a sin - just like indulgence of alcohol, or rape, or stealing or intentionally harming/hurting/hindering others, but I also am of the viewpoint that I am no one to judge anyone else...

Shams

[hungama25]

Correction..I am not against homosexuality - neither do I deny the existence of it. My viewpoint is that engaging in it is a sin - engaging in Homosexual sex is a sin - just like indulgence of alcohol, or rape, or stealing or intentionally harming/hurting/hindering others, but I also am of the viewpoint that I am no one to judge anyone else...

bro shams lemme ask you this , alcohol is forbidden right ? so what would you do if somebody from your family starts consuming it ?

you will explain him/her about the health hazard is it not ?? OR before explaining him/her you would say " iam no one to judge anyone, let him do whatever he/she wants to " ?

you will choose the first option which is the right option isnt it ?? our prophet[saw] and all imams[as] said share knowledge which can benefit ummah and thats what you are doing by saving that persons life.

its the same with gay sex/marriage which is haram, so brother it doesnt matter whether we judge them or not because allah[swt] already judged faggots in the past and set an example for those who follow their footsteps

[Aisha9]

And when did you chose to be straight? If you believe that sexual orientation is a choice, then please tell us when you chose to be heterosexual?

[Aisha9]

talk about proofs dumbhead and not about certain countries who bow down against fags because there is sooo much freedom

freedom to keep a weapon
freedom to smoke pot
freedom to join gay parades [ i know you love that ]

etc etc

Let us not forget "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

[Aisha9]

[quote="hungama25"you would get respect from gays and lesbians but not from me , i cannot go against the law of nature and welcome fagz like you because i cannot go against the quran/rasool[saw]/imam[as] and allah[swt][/quote]
You say that homosexuality is against nature? Then would you please explain to me why it is that there are gay penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York City, or homosexual lions, giraffes, and all sorts of other homosexual animals? If homosexuality is against nature why is it in nature?

[Aisha9]

Hungma, being so combative and abrasive is not our way. Let the infidels and the ungodly wage their wars and be harsh and divisive. As Muslims we should show kindness and love to all our brothers and sisters. We should not be causing fights amongst ourselves.
Shams and Hungma, look at Islam as a whole some of our religious leaders have talked to many educated people and come to the conclusion that homosexuality as well as transsexuality are just natural variants of human behavior. This is an imperfect world, made so by sin, and by mankind trying to make itself into a god. As a result there are all sorts of things around us causing birth defects, like autism and cleft palettes. Is it so hard to believe that the same things causing these birth defects could cause people to be born homosexual, or transsexual? Better to put your trust in those with more education than us on these matters. Better to live and let live, and show love to all our Muslim brothers and sisters.

[shiraz.virani]

You say that homosexuality is against nature? Then would you please explain to me why it is that there are gay penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York City, or homosexual lions, giraffes, and all sorts of other homosexual animals? If homosexuality is against nature why is it in nature?

Sister aisha, Instead of us dragging this topic to xyz pages why dont we just open the holy quran and judge in the light of it ??....Do you think Im asking too much ??

7:80-81 We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

26:165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males. "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

What do you understand from the above given aayat's aisha ?? How do you interpret them ??

[Admin]

The Imam said in the LBC interview that in Islam a marriage is a contract between a man and a women.

LBC: Et c'est pour cela que vous avez deux mariages? Le mariage civil et le mariage religieux?

AK: Non, non, non. Ça c'est une forme mais en fait le mariage n'est pas un sacrement en Islam. C'est un rapport contractuel entre un homme et une femme.

Translated:

LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?

AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.


For whole interview English translation:

http://ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcenglish.html

For original French transcript:

http://ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbc.html

[zznoor]

LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?

In Islamic countries and even in India, Imams of various Tariqas are authorized to conduct marriages. Even in Boston many Imams are licensed to conduct marriages. In that case you do not need to do civil marriage.

[shiraz.virani]

Missouri man withheld HIV+ status from hundreds of partners due to fear of rejection

http://rt.com/usa/missouri-hiv-hundreds-rejection-480/

[d.ahmad]

AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.

Is a civil marriage sufficient for a couple to be halal for each other or must they do `aqd nikah as well? Marriage with ahl-e-kitab is halal so can you just take her to court for marriage and be done with it or will she have to be explained the concept of nikah and sign the contract?

[shiraz.virani]

Is a civil marriage sufficient for a couple to be halal for each other or must they do `aqd nikah as well? Marriage with ahl-e-kitab is halal so can you just take her to court for marriage and be done with it or will she have to be explained the concept of nikah and sign the contract?

Ahmad bhai, as our imam has said "its a contract between the man and woman"

Now coming back to your question, you can do the nikah with her only if she accepts islam...I mean this is purely my belief and i can be wrong...For ex: if you get married to a christian lady here in USA and if she accepts/ converts to islam then yes, you have to go through the islamic law = nikah etc etc

If she does not wanna change her faith and if you are ok with that then I personally don't think that you have to do the nikah but remember, most of the countries do not accept religious marriages valid until and unless they are registered.

4 years back when I got married here in USA, the mukhi of our jamatkhana told me that I have to do the court marriage 1st and submit the certificate of marriage with the council....So I'm pretty sure that ismailis put law of the land before their religion....and this is how it should be

[tret]

...So I'm pretty sure that ismailis put law of the land before their religion....and this is how it should be

I beg to differ on that one.

Let me ask you a question, which may give your answer.

Which one is important to you -- here in USA -- court marriage (certificate of marriage is important, for paperwork, formality, etc..etc...), or our nikah? I mean when you were back home (I assume you aren't american?), which one was important?

I know in back home (and even here in Canada), our nika (khutba of nikah) is of much more important than court marriage. Again, court marriage is of importance, when it comes to paperwork and etc.. etc.. but if you look from cultural/religious perspective, our nikah is of importance.

[a_27826]

So I'm pretty sure that ismailis put law of the land before their religion....and this is how it should be

If true, then its pretty disturbing statement.

But then why generalize it to Ismaili Muslims only ?

Do Muslims kill Apostates in USA ?

[zznoor]

I live in USA

In my state certain Imams (Prayer or Mosque leaders) has permission do do Nikah and register marriage. In that case, couple don't have to go to court for civil marriage.

[shiraz.virani]

Tret said :

I beg to differ on that one.

Let me ask you a question, which may give your answer.

Which one is important to you -- here in USA -- court marriage (certificate of marriage is important, for paperwork, formality, etc..etc...), or our nikah? I mean when you were back home (I assume you aren't american?), which one was important?

I know in back home (and even here in Canada), our nika (khutba of nikah) is of much more important than court marriage. Again, court marriage is of importance, when it comes to paperwork and etc.. etc.. but if you look from cultural/religious perspective, our nikah is of importance.

Brother tret, we all have our own views and each one is entitled to it....For some its marriage according to our kriyas thats valid and for some it may be court marriage that is lawful and legal.

Anyways a sunni friend of mine in hyderabad,AP [where I'm from] got married recently and even though the marriage was performed by some mullah, their marriage was registered @ WAKF Board of HYDERABAD.

Now this board was formed in the year 1954 ...The sole purpose of this board was to look after the muslim wakf properties, wakf institutions and maintain muslim marriage records for legal purposes.

This WAKF board is not just in my city or state, this WAKF board is in almost every state of INDIA.

If you ask me personally which marriage you would prefer well Im already married, hehe....But if for some reason my wife leaves me then heck yeah Ill go with court marriage.......The money spent of court marriages is much less that money spent on customary marriages

[shiraz.virani]

a_27826 said :

If true, then its pretty disturbing statement.

But then why generalize it to Ismaili Muslims only ?

Do Muslims kill Apostates in USA ?

Are yaar....I din't mean to disrespect any other sects or religion

All I meant was previously few jamatkhana's in India and USA used to perform nikah even without registered court marriage but now its been changed....You have to do a court marriage 1st before you can perform customary marriage. Hence, ismailis put law of the land before religion. What is wrong with that ???

[tret]

If you ask me personally which marriage you would prefer well Im already married, hehe....But if for some reason my wife leaves me then heck yeah Ill go with court marriage.......The money spent of court marriages is much less that money spent on customary marriages

I am glad you'r happily married, and I wish your marriage last a lifetime.

If you are preferring court marriage over our nikah, because of $ cost, I guess you are mistaken the wedding reception with nikah ceremony itself.

Nikah is a khutbah which is recited in JK, and Mukie/Kamdiah sahebs give blessings to the newly weds.

Whereas the wedding reception is held at some banquet halls where the cost is associated. And it directly depends on the newly wed how much they want to spend (at least in our tradition). You could spend a reasonable amount of money, or you could go crazy and spend a whole lot.

But like you said, everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but I believe as far as our tariqa is concern, nikah khutba still takes precedent [where I am at now, Canada].

[shiraz.virani]

Tret said :

I am glad you'r happily married, and I wish your marriage last a lifetime.

If you are preferring court marriage over our nikah, because of $ cost, I guess you are mistaken the wedding reception with nikah ceremony itself.

Nikah is a khutbah which is recited in JK, and Mukie/Kamdiah sahebs give blessings to the newly weds.

Whereas the wedding reception is held at some banquet halls where the cost is associated. And it directly depends on the newly wed how much they want to spend (at least in our tradition). You could spend a reasonable amount of money, or you could go crazy and spend a whole lot.

Brother tret, I said this in a fun way...Of course there's a difference between nikah and wedding reception but nikah and wedding reception are like husband and wife...Its a situation where one tries to save you some money [nikah = affordable = cheap = Husband] while the other tries to spend it all [reception = Tooo freaking expensive = wife ]