Ya Ali Madad:
As many are in questioning mode from data they posses and may be geniune one's.
A simple question:
A human body without a soul is a lifeless body
then what is a soul without human body.
the question replied was for requirement for marifat.
So just propping a question out of book xxx years old of an event
million years ago not even a need to haqiqati is cleverness with
mischief intent.
Bhagat in my JK ,who are very strong haqiqati by thier practice of tariqa
does not read any doctrines and philosophy.
They do no understand or speak English properly.
All the data hear say n mugged up reading also not a qualification
for haqiqat.
Reading does broaden one's horizon.
Academics of Religion is not my Domain.
It believe what is today n what can be tommorow or years ahead n
not dig what was the past of xxx numbers of writers.
I value the farman of MHI more than farmans of past Imams.
All the debates n deliberate question to derail the core topic r subject
is mainly Zahiri ,as I have used the word of Imam SMS to show them a place to cut it short n sweet( bitter not sweet).
Wajh E Din is banned( not to be read at all) for reading by association of Pakistan .bcoz pir's n Dai also goof up by getting carried away in school of toughts.
Al-Halaj and his declaration "An al-Haq"
Well like I said your own-invented formula contradicts one of the fundamental pillar and principal of ismailies and yet you claim to be the true ismailie?. Unfortunately there exist people who think if they say ali=allah, then they find salvation. Fyi. Imam is hujjat of subhana tahala. I atrongly suggest you do some reading. I big to differ on your concept of 'old books no value'.
Please show reference that waje din is banned, or please stop spreading lies and false rumors.
Please show reference that waje din is banned, or please stop spreading lies and false rumors.
Ya Ali madad:
To continue the subject of Tawhid/Asal me wasal hona.
As said by Imam SMS in his Farman that is easier our Tariqa.
HOW HOW HOW?
I am trying to expand these 5 words into 5 points out of my understanding.I may be incorrect.
1.We Ismailis are blessed to be born into a great Faith.Each of our soul
by goodness of past life is already spiritually elevated souls.the process
with Living Imam becomes easier.
2 .In our Tariqa it is to achieved/attained without shunning or avoiding the worldly and family responsibility.Unlike in other religions the person shuns the wordly life n responsibilities.ALI judges the persons both on his spiritual progress and worldly life and obligations. the effort is other religion get slowed down bcoz of debit points minus from credits .
3. We practice on the word( vri vri powerful) given by a living Imam while
others practice on the word/words(powerful) left by past religious leaders ages back.
4.Along with Ibaadat also come love n khidmat
Ishq is a natural process in our Sufi tariqa. Is is greatly supplemented
by our traditional material.
5.Ismailis are cultivated for Khidmat at all level from childhood and we have majlis signifying many Khidmat levels.
So we all Ismailis are on springboard toward Tawhid.
I would say hop, skip n jump.away. For others may be a few hundred or even thousand life cycles on earth.
To all: Anybody with Farmans of Imam SMS and having out of passion or academic collection.
I found it to be gold mine of Baatin in it in compare with other Imams
and has said it very simple language.
I wish to take it forward with help from other Momins
To continue the subject of Tawhid/Asal me wasal hona.
As said by Imam SMS in his Farman that is easier our Tariqa.
HOW HOW HOW?
I am trying to expand these 5 words into 5 points out of my understanding.I may be incorrect.
1.We Ismailis are blessed to be born into a great Faith.Each of our soul
by goodness of past life is already spiritually elevated souls.the process
with Living Imam becomes easier.
2 .In our Tariqa it is to achieved/attained without shunning or avoiding the worldly and family responsibility.Unlike in other religions the person shuns the wordly life n responsibilities.ALI judges the persons both on his spiritual progress and worldly life and obligations. the effort is other religion get slowed down bcoz of debit points minus from credits .
3. We practice on the word( vri vri powerful) given by a living Imam while
others practice on the word/words(powerful) left by past religious leaders ages back.
4.Along with Ibaadat also come love n khidmat
Ishq is a natural process in our Sufi tariqa. Is is greatly supplemented
by our traditional material.
5.Ismailis are cultivated for Khidmat at all level from childhood and we have majlis signifying many Khidmat levels.
So we all Ismailis are on springboard toward Tawhid.
I would say hop, skip n jump.away. For others may be a few hundred or even thousand life cycles on earth.
To all: Anybody with Farmans of Imam SMS and having out of passion or academic collection.
I found it to be gold mine of Baatin in it in compare with other Imams
and has said it very simple language.
I wish to take it forward with help from other Momins
To Tret:Ya Ali madad.
You have mentioned the word you seem to be obsessed with it in few of your postings.
the word " Hujjat of Suhana tahala".
Is these words:
1.from Quran.please give surah n Ayat no.
2.Is specifically said by MHI or any Imams of the Past.
If it is from above points.I respect regard it n wish to know more.
If it is words coined by any Mortal Pir or Dai.
I may even not acknowledge or not regard it just bcoz he /she said it.
or this words said by x entity endorsed of those very word said by him
by any Imam not just blanket endorsement of that person.
As you seem to more into 'academics of Religion' you would know better.
I do not know as my domain is mainly 'Inspiration of Faith" with solid reference from words Of Imam.
I have posed a simple common sense question.please try to answer it
You have mentioned the word you seem to be obsessed with it in few of your postings.
the word " Hujjat of Suhana tahala".
Is these words:
1.from Quran.please give surah n Ayat no.
2.Is specifically said by MHI or any Imams of the Past.
If it is from above points.I respect regard it n wish to know more.
If it is words coined by any Mortal Pir or Dai.
I may even not acknowledge or not regard it just bcoz he /she said it.
or this words said by x entity endorsed of those very word said by him
by any Imam not just blanket endorsement of that person.
As you seem to more into 'academics of Religion' you would know better.
I do not know as my domain is mainly 'Inspiration of Faith" with solid reference from words Of Imam.
I have posed a simple common sense question.please try to answer it
So much for someone who claims to be mahrifati...nuseri wrote:To Tret:Ya Ali madad.
You have mentioned the word you seem to be obsessed with it in few of your postings.
the word " Hujjat of Suhana tahala".
Is these words:
1.from Quran.please give surah n Ayat no.
2.Is specifically said by MHI or any Imams of the Past.
If it is from above points.I respect regard it n wish to know more.
If it is words coined by any Mortal Pir or Dai.
I may even not acknowledge or not regard it just bcoz he /she said it.
or this words said by x entity endorsed of those very word said by him
by any Imam not just blanket endorsement of that person.
As you seem to more into 'academics of Religion' you would know better.
I do not know as my domain is mainly 'Inspiration of Faith" with solid reference from words Of Imam.
I have posed a simple common sense question.please try to answer it
Please always remember, before pointing finger to others, try to correct yours first. You ask reference from Qur'an and Farman (you don't even probably believe in former, as you consider it old), about Hujjat of Subhana tahala, but you forget that who would accept your invented-theory and where it is mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an or Imam's Farameen?
I guess enough said; by now everyone has a clear understanding of where we stand. Remember, those Dai's and Pir's that you call them mortal are/were appointed by our very own Imam of the time. Your words are addressing Imam's too. Be careful. So much for someone who claims to be mahrifati but demonstrate totally otherwise.
To Tret:Ya ali Madad.
My views,conviction n assumptions stays irrevocably with me.
I do take up challenge n reply n very able to defend or preach the above
if the main topic is authored by me.
Now where the 'words' have come from is the question as it is posted by you.
I do know in what language it is Arabic or Farsi?
Please do not take is personal as I am objectively on the points and words posted by you.
Please give the answer as it would benefit all in the forum.
You have spoken around it and gave your analysis on me but STILL
YET TO GIVE ANSWER ON "WORDS" mentioned by many times.I have heard the name' Malala' and sympathize with her.
My views,conviction n assumptions stays irrevocably with me.
I do take up challenge n reply n very able to defend or preach the above
if the main topic is authored by me.
Now where the 'words' have come from is the question as it is posted by you.
I do know in what language it is Arabic or Farsi?
Please do not take is personal as I am objectively on the points and words posted by you.
Please give the answer as it would benefit all in the forum.
You have spoken around it and gave your analysis on me but STILL
YET TO GIVE ANSWER ON "WORDS" mentioned by many times.I have heard the name' Malala' and sympathize with her.
I have no problem with that. opinions are like ______, everyone's got'em.nuseri wrote: My views,conviction n assumptions stays irrevocably with me.
Everyone's right in their own way of thinking. But, truth/reality is to perceive things AS THEY ARE; not necessarily what you think or assume is right!nuseri wrote: I do take up challenge n reply n very able to defend or preach the above
if the main topic is authored by me.
I didn't ask you any question at all. I guess you are confused with word 'words'? Let me clarify: When you say 'mortal Pir's or Dai's' or any other statement as such; it implies you are questioning Imam-e-Zaman's authority; for, it's He who appoints and trusts those Dai's, Pir's and Hujjats!nuseri wrote: Now where the 'words' have come from is the question as it is posted by you.
Honestly, I have no idea what are you trying to say; you are beating around the bush here. Where's malala and where's the words.nuseri wrote: I do know in what language it is Arabic or Farsi?
Please do not take is personal as I am objectively on the points and words posted by you.
Please give the answer as it would benefit all in the forum.
You have spoken around it and gave your analysis on me but STILL
YET TO GIVE ANSWER ON "WORDS" mentioned by many times.I have heard the name' Malala' and sympathize with her.
In a separate post, I will tell you why your self-invented theory/formula will not work; by giving you a practical example; since you are so much so into practical stuff and don't care about theory. Stay tuned!
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Nuseri said :
“Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence — in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God.”
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
Does a soul have to be born in ismaili family to reach marifat nuseri ???
But I have been told that Buddhists, Brahmins, Zoroastrians and Christians — I have not often heard it of Jews, except perhaps Spinoza — have also attained this direct, mystical vision. I am certain that many Muslims, and I am convinced that I myself, have had moments of enlightenment and of knowledge of a kind which we cannot communicate because it is something given and not something acquired.”
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
The most important point nuseri that one should ask is whether he is in harmony with the divine....If yes then this person will always be HAPPY and BLESSED.
I absolutely agree with points 4 and 5...but apart from that we slightly disagree on points 1,2 and 3....One does not have to be a member of particular tribe, cult or religion in order to meet the divine....One has to have control on ones self [NAFS]...the door of marifat will open on its own
Then how about Hindus, Christians, Jews who have some spiritually elevated souls [yet they don't recognize the imam of the time] ??? ....Allah[swt] says in holy quran that all those who follow his laws should not have fear of being dealt unjustly [PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, remember ??]1.We Ismailis are blessed to be born into a great Faith.Each of our soul by goodness of past life is already spiritually elevated souls.the process with Living Imam becomes easier.
“Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence — in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God.”
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
Does a soul have to be born in ismaili family to reach marifat nuseri ???
Other religions get slowed down ?? How ???....Does every hindu becomes a sadhu to reach marifat ???....Does every christian has to become a pope or father in order to reach marifat ???2 .In our Tariqa it is to achieved/attained without shunning or avoiding the worldly and family responsibility.Unlike in other religions the person shuns the wordly life n responsibilities.ALI judges the persons both on his spiritual progress and worldly life and obligations. the effort is other religion get slowed down bcoz of debit points minus from credits.
But I have been told that Buddhists, Brahmins, Zoroastrians and Christians — I have not often heard it of Jews, except perhaps Spinoza — have also attained this direct, mystical vision. I am certain that many Muslims, and I am convinced that I myself, have had moments of enlightenment and of knowledge of a kind which we cannot communicate because it is something given and not something acquired.”
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
“Muhammad[pbuh] told mankind first that the Infinite Sustainer and Container of all existence had justice, mercy, and love as well; secondly, that man through these qualities and through gentleness and kindness, prayer, awe or wonder could get – howsoever infinitesimal proportion – direct communion with the All-Embracing Power in which he lived and moved and had his being. I submit that this doctrine will have a universality that can be accepted as long as man is man and as long as intelligence as we understand it surives on earth.”3. We practice on the word( vri vri powerful) given by a living Imam while others practice on the word/words(powerful) left by past religious leaders ages back.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah
4.Along with Ibaadat also come love n khidmat
Ishq is a natural process in our Sufi tariqa. It is greatly supplemented
by our traditional material.
The most important point nuseri that one should ask is whether he is in harmony with the divine....If yes then this person will always be HAPPY and BLESSED.
5.Ismailis are cultivated for Khidmat at all level from childhood and we have majlis signifying many Khidmat levels.
I absolutely agree with points 4 and 5...but apart from that we slightly disagree on points 1,2 and 3....One does not have to be a member of particular tribe, cult or religion in order to meet the divine....One has to have control on ones self [NAFS]...the door of marifat will open on its own
@nuseri
First of all realization is reached by acquiring the proper knowledge (ilm) and not through what you call ehssas! No matter how good your ehssas is, it won't tell you what reality is. Ilm is essential for reaching to higher world. Now, you are so eager to jump (to conclusion?) to practical stuff, without trying to understand the process, which can potentially cause you harm. You need to understand and follow the recipie if you want to prepare a dish. Or else, you may burn your dish and either stay hungry for the night, or eat burnt food. And if it continues for an extended period of time, it can damage severly your stomach and you may no loger be able to digest any food; which will cause your body to suffer.
Let me give you a practical example, so you can relate! I also assume you drive? So, before you take the car and start driving on the streets, you will need to pass theory exam to obtain your learners' permit. Then, you will have to pass practical exam to get your actual license. So, theory comes before practical. Now, even to be able to do all that, you will have to learn and obey laws and regulations of driving; or else the consequences could be deadly. i.e. stop at red light, etc...
In religiouse matters (note, we'r not talking about shariat here), you will have abide by some pricipal and fundamental rules, or else your endavourse will be in vain. i.e. you have mentioned in many occasions statements such as 'Pir's or Dai's are mortal', 'Profet was an umi', 'Qur'an is old' and other statement of such nature. If it wasn't for these Dai's and Pir's, right now, you were probably worshiping an elephant with six legs in some mander, you know what I mean? pardon my french, but sometimes this tone is necessary to get your point accross. I don't mean no disrespect.
I don't know if you realized it yourself, but you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you are giving analogy about academics, on the other hand you oppose them.
First of all realization is reached by acquiring the proper knowledge (ilm) and not through what you call ehssas! No matter how good your ehssas is, it won't tell you what reality is. Ilm is essential for reaching to higher world. Now, you are so eager to jump (to conclusion?) to practical stuff, without trying to understand the process, which can potentially cause you harm. You need to understand and follow the recipie if you want to prepare a dish. Or else, you may burn your dish and either stay hungry for the night, or eat burnt food. And if it continues for an extended period of time, it can damage severly your stomach and you may no loger be able to digest any food; which will cause your body to suffer.
Let me give you a practical example, so you can relate! I also assume you drive? So, before you take the car and start driving on the streets, you will need to pass theory exam to obtain your learners' permit. Then, you will have to pass practical exam to get your actual license. So, theory comes before practical. Now, even to be able to do all that, you will have to learn and obey laws and regulations of driving; or else the consequences could be deadly. i.e. stop at red light, etc...
In religiouse matters (note, we'r not talking about shariat here), you will have abide by some pricipal and fundamental rules, or else your endavourse will be in vain. i.e. you have mentioned in many occasions statements such as 'Pir's or Dai's are mortal', 'Profet was an umi', 'Qur'an is old' and other statement of such nature. If it wasn't for these Dai's and Pir's, right now, you were probably worshiping an elephant with six legs in some mander, you know what I mean? pardon my french, but sometimes this tone is necessary to get your point accross. I don't mean no disrespect.
I don't know if you realized it yourself, but you are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you are giving analogy about academics, on the other hand you oppose them.
I believe you taking about the term "Hujjatullah" (Proof of God)nuseri wrote: Now where the 'words' have come from is the question as it is posted by you.
I do know in what language it is Arabic or Farsi?
Please do not take is personal as I am objectively on the points and words posted by you.
Please give the answer as it would benefit all in the forum.
You have spoken around it and gave your analysis on me but STILL
YET TO GIVE ANSWER ON "WORDS" mentioned by many times
There are many terminology in Shia as well in Sunni, you wont find them explicitly in the Quran but the concept is there in it.
For example you might not find the word "Tawheed" in the Quran but the concept of "Tawheed" is there in it.
However the word "hujja" is there in the Quran in several verses, but in the contexts of these verses, it means "argument/dispute" and not as a "proof/sign" refer
002:076
002:139
002:150
002:258
003:020
003:061
003:065
003:066
003:073
004:165
006:080
006:083
006:149
040:047
042:015
042:016
045:025
Regarding the term "Hujjatullah (Proof of God)", it may have come from ahadith.
To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.
I am asking what does word "Hujjat of Suhana Tahala" means as you have posted.
this is the 3rd time I am asking you.
many a time on main page of the site on maxim of H.Ali
A person hiding the information knows nothing about that information.
Please no. partial word meaning.
Shariati candle hawker is keen awaiting for suckers on Basic in Religion.
Is the theory n practice of car driving is same or different than for a person flying a large plane at 35000 above seal level or an astronaut in space craft 50 miles above orbiting the Earth?
Ilm end at Haqiqat level.FULL STOP.
Beyond that is practical.
BAHUT PADA AUR 'ALI' KO SHAMJA.
AUR KHUB ILM SE 'ALI' KO PECHANA.
AGAR USKI ZIKR NAHI KARI
AUR US PEE ISHQ NAHI JATAYA.
TO KYA JIYAA AUR KYA MAARA.
I am still awaiting a general childish common sense question on body n soul from any members.
I am asking what does word "Hujjat of Suhana Tahala" means as you have posted.
this is the 3rd time I am asking you.
many a time on main page of the site on maxim of H.Ali
A person hiding the information knows nothing about that information.
Please no. partial word meaning.
Shariati candle hawker is keen awaiting for suckers on Basic in Religion.
Is the theory n practice of car driving is same or different than for a person flying a large plane at 35000 above seal level or an astronaut in space craft 50 miles above orbiting the Earth?
Ilm end at Haqiqat level.FULL STOP.
Beyond that is practical.
BAHUT PADA AUR 'ALI' KO SHAMJA.
AUR KHUB ILM SE 'ALI' KO PECHANA.
AGAR USKI ZIKR NAHI KARI
AUR US PEE ISHQ NAHI JATAYA.
TO KYA JIYAA AUR KYA MAARA.
I am still awaiting a general childish common sense question on body n soul from any members.
To Shiraz:Ya Ali Madad.
"Hamare choote sawal ka jawab to do".
Please try to keep the Farmans n Speeches of the same Imam for the level we are discussing as it is addressed at different levels.
One is an entity of a noble statesman called as 'Aga Khan' to the world.
The same entity Farman as IMAM is words of ALI/GOD, an absolute ordinance on Ismailis ONLY.
Marifat is there n achieved in many religions not just for Ismailis.
ALI is entity for the universe at Haqiqat level.
The words used by the Imam is 'easier' n not exclusive.
In India an MBA graduate from IIM Ahmedabad gets 2.5x time as starting
annual salary than all India MBA average for all India.
Even in USA ,I read about figures different for MBA from Harvard visavis
average USA colleges.
The campus size, course and teaching is similar across colleges in both the countries.
Can you answer why is it so?
Why more than double for few for the same 2 years of input/course?
It may answer the part from the first 3 points.
In religion n Faiths the en lighted are born with the credit or effort of their past life in all religions for the world,as we see many with Spiritual
powers beyond a normal human capacity.
There are not less than 313 peoples of all Faith who are balancing the esoteric by being one with God/ALI.
As I am born an Ismaili and my understanding,conviction n experience is thru our Faith.
As it may not be prudent for me to debate just on academics on what can meta physical process of all Faiths.
In many Indian religion this practice is only for those for wish to shun the worldly commitments assuming it doubles the commitment to GOD in their effort.
The main question was How does one get there?
It is via the 'Inspiration of Faith'.
If we pull it down with data of other religions then we are going into
'Academics of Religion' and derailment of the core topic with Googling of all available data on Enlightenment by one n all
"Hamare choote sawal ka jawab to do".
Please try to keep the Farmans n Speeches of the same Imam for the level we are discussing as it is addressed at different levels.
One is an entity of a noble statesman called as 'Aga Khan' to the world.
The same entity Farman as IMAM is words of ALI/GOD, an absolute ordinance on Ismailis ONLY.
Marifat is there n achieved in many religions not just for Ismailis.
ALI is entity for the universe at Haqiqat level.
The words used by the Imam is 'easier' n not exclusive.
In India an MBA graduate from IIM Ahmedabad gets 2.5x time as starting
annual salary than all India MBA average for all India.
Even in USA ,I read about figures different for MBA from Harvard visavis
average USA colleges.
The campus size, course and teaching is similar across colleges in both the countries.
Can you answer why is it so?
Why more than double for few for the same 2 years of input/course?
It may answer the part from the first 3 points.
In religion n Faiths the en lighted are born with the credit or effort of their past life in all religions for the world,as we see many with Spiritual
powers beyond a normal human capacity.
There are not less than 313 peoples of all Faith who are balancing the esoteric by being one with God/ALI.
As I am born an Ismaili and my understanding,conviction n experience is thru our Faith.
As it may not be prudent for me to debate just on academics on what can meta physical process of all Faiths.
In many Indian religion this practice is only for those for wish to shun the worldly commitments assuming it doubles the commitment to GOD in their effort.
The main question was How does one get there?
It is via the 'Inspiration of Faith'.
If we pull it down with data of other religions then we are going into
'Academics of Religion' and derailment of the core topic with Googling of all available data on Enlightenment by one n all
nuseri wrote: I presume you are much into reading into Nasir Khusraw doctrines and testing readers on it data.Your intent here is unhealthy.
Since the question on body/soul appears childish to you; I presume you already know the answer. Yet you are asking other readers? What do you consider this? Unhealthy?nuseri wrote: I am still awaiting a general childish common sense question on body n soul from any members.
Anyways, body without soul is just corps (dirty). however, soul remains still soul even without body.
If you need to know what happens to soul after, then that's another topic.
Your posting appear out of format. It's not clear where your question starts and where it ends. Now, I understood what you were trying to ask.nuseri wrote: I am asking what does word "Hujjat of Suhana Tahala" means as you have posted.
this is the 3rd time I am asking you.
Hujjat's literral translation is "Proof" [burhan]. "Hujjat of subhana tahala" means proof of almighty Allah or "Mazhar of God", "God's manifistation".
I personally don't hide any information. If I don't know a question, I will admit it. Most of all, I don't get offended!nuseri wrote: A person hiding the information knows nothing about that information.
Absolutly it applies in those cases as well! The extend of acquired knowledge maybe at a higher extend but you can use the same framework to relate. Person who flies aircraft, MUST acquire proper knowledge (ilm) in theory, before even attempting to simulate in the lab, let alone the actual aircraft.nuseri wrote: Is the theory n practice of car driving is same or different than for a person flying a large plane at 35000 above seal level or an astronaut in space craft 50 miles above orbiting the Earth?
Ilm end at Haqiqat level.FULL STOP.
English translation please?nuseri wrote: Beyond that is practical.
BAHUT PADA AUR 'ALI' KO SHAMJA.
AUR KHUB ILM SE 'ALI' KO PECHANA.
AGAR USKI ZIKR NAHI KARI
AUR US PEE ISHQ NAHI JATAYA.
TO KYA JIYAA AUR KYA MAARA.
Ya Ali madad.
First answer recieved that 'Soul is a soul'.
Please put in your answers as it broadens one thinking.
Please anyone can translate the couplet from Hindi to English from my last posting.
I presume at Mr Forget n TrueIsmaili786 may be taking a shy glance at my post.
I am taking a New year break.
Hope to see you all in 2014.
HAPPY CALENDER NEW YEAR TO ALL.
First answer recieved that 'Soul is a soul'.
Please put in your answers as it broadens one thinking.
Please anyone can translate the couplet from Hindi to English from my last posting.
I presume at Mr Forget n TrueIsmaili786 may be taking a shy glance at my post.
I am taking a New year break.
Hope to see you all in 2014.
HAPPY CALENDER NEW YEAR TO ALL.
To Tret: Ya Ali madad.
( Rasulillah bhi ALI se madat mangte the,Aap aur mai to kuch bhi nahi).
From your postings you are truly a Haqaqti momin.
My posting on for basic needs for Marifat may have been taken by some with a pinch of Salt by Haqiqati who has passion of reading n academics.
With reading one has known the truth.now to find the truth is a practice to search within ones self.
Reading of Farman deeply is a part of Tariqa n absolute conviction of Imam as ALI/God is Haqiqat and acting on the Farman in practical of most important one's is a path to Marifat and it may be not reading n reading of all material available at a cost of acquiring it.
There are some in my city who are self styled running Ilm Majlis trying to read n interpret mostly Imam SMS farman.
They are honestly nothing but parrot on written words of Farmans n ot yet gone into Baatin of it.
I went and sang some poems in praise of ALI all except one(who had tears in his eyes) said I was a 12er Itnashari believing in ALI n not Shah Karim.
I asked them questions on the very same Farmans their reply was challenged by me, since then they are scarred of taking questions from me.
I read n reminded on a Landmark Farman of Imam SMS, Only one got back to me after few months that he did observed on what I said with his own eyes.
Your passion on reading should turn to Love for him.
One cannot do Ibaadat n Khidmat just by reading more n more n more.
Death can catch one by that time.
I want to start the new year with cordial note with all member.If I am opposing it is there with reasoning's in my post.
I liked n did backed your aggression with a Shariati candle hawker
I wish you n your family very very Happy new year May ALI bless in your reading n besides that if you wish in your Ibaadat,Ishq n Khidmat.
( Rasulillah bhi ALI se madat mangte the,Aap aur mai to kuch bhi nahi).
From your postings you are truly a Haqaqti momin.
My posting on for basic needs for Marifat may have been taken by some with a pinch of Salt by Haqiqati who has passion of reading n academics.
With reading one has known the truth.now to find the truth is a practice to search within ones self.
Reading of Farman deeply is a part of Tariqa n absolute conviction of Imam as ALI/God is Haqiqat and acting on the Farman in practical of most important one's is a path to Marifat and it may be not reading n reading of all material available at a cost of acquiring it.
There are some in my city who are self styled running Ilm Majlis trying to read n interpret mostly Imam SMS farman.
They are honestly nothing but parrot on written words of Farmans n ot yet gone into Baatin of it.
I went and sang some poems in praise of ALI all except one(who had tears in his eyes) said I was a 12er Itnashari believing in ALI n not Shah Karim.
I asked them questions on the very same Farmans their reply was challenged by me, since then they are scarred of taking questions from me.
I read n reminded on a Landmark Farman of Imam SMS, Only one got back to me after few months that he did observed on what I said with his own eyes.
Your passion on reading should turn to Love for him.
One cannot do Ibaadat n Khidmat just by reading more n more n more.
Death can catch one by that time.
I want to start the new year with cordial note with all member.If I am opposing it is there with reasoning's in my post.
I liked n did backed your aggression with a Shariati candle hawker
I wish you n your family very very Happy new year May ALI bless in your reading n besides that if you wish in your Ibaadat,Ishq n Khidmat.
nuseri wrote:To Tret: Ya Ali madad.
( Rasulillah bhi ALI se madat mangte the,Aap aur mai to kuch bhi nahi).
From your postings you are truly a Haqaqti momin.
My posting on for basic needs for Marifat may have been taken by some with a pinch of Salt by Haqiqati who has passion of reading n academics.
With reading one has known the truth.now to find the truth is a practice to search within ones self.
Reading of Farman deeply is a part of Tariqa n absolute conviction of Imam as ALI/God is Haqiqat and acting on the Farman in practical of most important one's is a path to Marifat and it may be not reading n reading of all material available at a cost of acquiring it.
There are some in my city who are self styled running Ilm Majlis trying to read n interpret mostly Imam SMS farman.
They are honestly nothing but parrot on written words of Farmans n ot yet gone into Baatin of it.
I went and sang some poems in praise of ALI all except one(who had tears in his eyes) said I was a 12er Itnashari believing in ALI n not Shah Karim.
I asked them questions on the very same Farmans their reply was challenged by me, since then they are scarred of taking questions from me.
I read n reminded on a Landmark Farman of Imam SMS, Only one got back to me after few months that he did observed on what I said with his own eyes.
Your passion on reading should turn to Love for him.
One cannot do Ibaadat n Khidmat just by reading more n more n more.
Death can catch one by that time.
I want to start the new year with cordial note with all member.If I am opposing it is there with reasoning's in my post.
I liked n did backed your aggression with a Shariati candle hawker
I wish you n your family very very Happy new year May ALI bless in your reading n besides that if you wish in your Ibaadat,Ishq n Khidmat.
I don't consider myself haqiqati/marifati/shariati, as I indicated earlier.
I think we may have misunderstood each other. The reason why I questioned you was to clarify how does one know he reached haqiqat/realization? Because until you don't, ilm is a necessity to get there. Once, a person reached realization, then he HAS TO live it, or else that realization mean nothing! This is my pure understanding and my opinion that mahrifat is TO LIVE HAQIQAT. i.e. if someone knows helping less fortunate people are good, but he still doesn't do it, inspite of being capable, then it's the same as one reaching haqiqat and not living it.
I also agree with you when you say love/ibadat/ishq is essential and more important that ilm. I guess, ilm is necessary for realization ishq/love/ibadat is essential to live haqiqat.
A traveler who has spent months to get to Imam Muhammad-e-Baqir has asked Him what is din/madhab? And Imam has replied 'it is love'. So, without love, there's no din or madhab. Love towards Imam is a pre-requisite that every momin must have.
Ya Ali Madad N Happy New Year:
I had posted a question on soul n body n relativity of it n not a absolute question on Soul.
I did ask all the super smart ones in my JK. All them liked n complemented the question ,none but one again replied 'soul is a soul'.
The answer as per material available to us at Tariqat level n even on the liners propping on the site main pager hints at that.
It is "GOD WITHOUT ABODE/TEMPLE".
It could also be something else from data of other religions.
NAYAA SAAL.NAYEE SOCH.
ALI ALI KARO AUR
DIL KO GOOGLE KARO.
I had posted a question on soul n body n relativity of it n not a absolute question on Soul.
I did ask all the super smart ones in my JK. All them liked n complemented the question ,none but one again replied 'soul is a soul'.
The answer as per material available to us at Tariqat level n even on the liners propping on the site main pager hints at that.
It is "GOD WITHOUT ABODE/TEMPLE".
It could also be something else from data of other religions.
NAYAA SAAL.NAYEE SOCH.
ALI ALI KARO AUR
DIL KO GOOGLE KARO.
To Admin n members:
I wish to know if the speeches made n published of Hazar Imam N Imam SMS as known as Imams to us Ismailis.
Does the official publication shows them as Aga Khan III or IV
or H.H title addded or In thier plain name.
Is there the word 'IMAM' used before their name in those official publications..i.e 'Hazar Imam' Karim Al Husainy.
I personally feel any reference/quote from there is not a Farman of the Imam should be referred as said by Agakhan n the word Imam not to used to mix up essence
At times it can misleading, contradictory and even dangerous.
Are speeches( as syllabus) of Aga Khan taught in our religious schools?
Also speeches with close observation in not an absolute part of our Tariqa unlike Farmans.
They are words of an entity as noble statesmen,philanthropist.Leader of a community addressed to that specified audience or readers.
Never the less they can be best amongst references/quotes if the subject is of 'academic 'nature and not much so for subjects of esoteric part n practice n inspiration of Faith.
A couplet to know his entity: ON ALI.
AHLE KITABO KE LIYE HAI AALA MUSALMAN TUHI.
SHARIATIO KA KHALIF TUHI
TARIQATO KA IMAM TUHI.
For the people of the book(Non Muslims) are seen a Noble Muslim statesman .( H.H the AgaKhan)
For the majority stream of Muslim your ancestors were respected as Last Khalifa.( Hazrat Ali)
For your believers you are seen as their Imam.( Moulana Hazar Imam)
I wish to know if the speeches made n published of Hazar Imam N Imam SMS as known as Imams to us Ismailis.
Does the official publication shows them as Aga Khan III or IV
or H.H title addded or In thier plain name.
Is there the word 'IMAM' used before their name in those official publications..i.e 'Hazar Imam' Karim Al Husainy.
I personally feel any reference/quote from there is not a Farman of the Imam should be referred as said by Agakhan n the word Imam not to used to mix up essence
At times it can misleading, contradictory and even dangerous.
Are speeches( as syllabus) of Aga Khan taught in our religious schools?
Also speeches with close observation in not an absolute part of our Tariqa unlike Farmans.
They are words of an entity as noble statesmen,philanthropist.Leader of a community addressed to that specified audience or readers.
Never the less they can be best amongst references/quotes if the subject is of 'academic 'nature and not much so for subjects of esoteric part n practice n inspiration of Faith.
A couplet to know his entity: ON ALI.
AHLE KITABO KE LIYE HAI AALA MUSALMAN TUHI.
SHARIATIO KA KHALIF TUHI
TARIQATO KA IMAM TUHI.
For the people of the book(Non Muslims) are seen a Noble Muslim statesman .( H.H the AgaKhan)
For the majority stream of Muslim your ancestors were respected as Last Khalifa.( Hazrat Ali)
For your believers you are seen as their Imam.( Moulana Hazar Imam)
I guess everyone would anticipate your version of what/who/why is soul, with/without body, at last... I would be the first to know, as this would indicate similarity or differences between our understanding.nuseri wrote: I did ask all the super smart ones in my JK. All them liked n complemented the question ,none but one again replied 'soul is a soul'.
One thing I really wanted to clarify, by your help. Do you think, is truth subjective to observer's opinion and/or feeling or objectively firm as they are to perceive, based on their knowledge (ilm) and previous experience?nuseri wrote: The answer as per material available to us at Tariqat level n even on the liners propping on the site main pager hints at that.
It is "GOD WITHOUT ABODE/TEMPLE".
It could also be something else from data of other religions.
NAYAA SAAL.NAYEE SOCH.
ALI ALI KARO AUR
DIL KO GOOGLE KARO.
دل خوش از آنيم که حج مي رويـــــــــم
غافل از آنيم که کج مي رويــــــــــــــــم
کعبه به ديدار خــــــــــــــــدا مي رويـــم
او که همين جاست، کـــجا ميرويـــــــم
حج به خدا جز بــــــــه دل پـــاک نيست
شستن غــــــــم از دل غـمــناک نيست
ديــن که به تسبيح و سر و ريش نيست
هــرکه علي گفت که درويش نيســـــت
صبح به صبح در پي مــــــــــکر و فـــريب
شب همه شب گريـــــــه و امــن يجيب
غافل از آنيم که کج مي رويــــــــــــــــم
کعبه به ديدار خــــــــــــــــدا مي رويـــم
او که همين جاست، کـــجا ميرويـــــــم
حج به خدا جز بــــــــه دل پـــاک نيست
شستن غــــــــم از دل غـمــناک نيست
ديــن که به تسبيح و سر و ريش نيست
هــرکه علي گفت که درويش نيســـــت
صبح به صبح در پي مــــــــــکر و فـــريب
شب همه شب گريـــــــه و امــن يجيب
To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.
What language is it in Arabic,Urdu or Persian?
Please if possible put it's transliteration in English and translation also.
MHI's Farman has said to us to be more proficient in English.
HAMARI BAAT NAHI SUNO TO THEEK HAI
PUR KHUDA KI TO SUNO.
If you do not listen to me,It's fair and Ok.
But at least Listen to GOD.
What language is it in Arabic,Urdu or Persian?
Please if possible put it's transliteration in English and translation also.
MHI's Farman has said to us to be more proficient in English.
HAMARI BAAT NAHI SUNO TO THEEK HAI
PUR KHUDA KI TO SUNO.
If you do not listen to me,It's fair and Ok.
But at least Listen to GOD.
We are happy that we go hajjtret wrote:دل خوش از آنيم که حج مي رويـــــــــم
غافل از آنيم که کج مي رويــــــــــــــــم
کعبه به ديدار خــــــــــــــــدا مي رويـــم
او که همين جاست، کـــجا ميرويـــــــم
حج به خدا جز بــــــــه دل پـــاک نيست
شستن غــــــــم از دل غـمــناک نيست
ديــن که به تسبيح و سر و ريش نيست
هــرکه علي گفت که درويش نيســـــت
صبح به صبح در پي مــــــــــکر و فـــريب
شب همه شب گريـــــــه و امــن يجيب
But unaware that we are off the path [sirat-ul-mustaqeem]
We go to see God in kabah
He [God] is here, where are we going?
Without clean heart, there's no hajj
Can't wash sorrow from person's [who has sorrow]heart, by going hajj.
din is not with beard, cloth, tasbih [physical]
whoever just said 'ali' is not darvish [reached to mahrifat]
every morning we plan how to deceive
every night crying, it's strange!
Tried best to translate. It's as close I could get. I know there are points and words that get lost in translation; which is true in any languages. Especially Persian (Farsi) that has a lot of words that could easily be mis-interpreted.
We are happy that we go hajj
But unaware that we are off the path [sirat-ul-mustaqeem]
We go to see God in kabah
He [God] is here, where are we going?
Without clean heart, there's no hajj
Can't wash sorrow from person's [who has sorrow]heart, by going hajj.
din is not with beard, cloth, tasbih [physical]
whoever just said 'ali' is not darvish [reached to mahrifat]
every morning we plan how to deceive
every night crying, it's strange!
------
Tried best to translate. It's as close I could get. I know there are points and words that get lost in translation; which is true in any languages. Especially Persian (Farsi) that has a lot of words that could easily be mis-interpreted.
But unaware that we are off the path [sirat-ul-mustaqeem]
We go to see God in kabah
He [God] is here, where are we going?
Without clean heart, there's no hajj
Can't wash sorrow from person's [who has sorrow]heart, by going hajj.
din is not with beard, cloth, tasbih [physical]
whoever just said 'ali' is not darvish [reached to mahrifat]
every morning we plan how to deceive
every night crying, it's strange!
------
Tried best to translate. It's as close I could get. I know there are points and words that get lost in translation; which is true in any languages. Especially Persian (Farsi) that has a lot of words that could easily be mis-interpreted.
Hajj is one of 5 principal act of Islam and need to be performed only when one can afford it.tret wrote:We are happy that we go hajj
But unaware that we are off the path [sirat-ul-mustaqeem]
We go to see God in kabah
He [God] is here, where are we going?
Without clean heart, there's no hajj
Can't wash sorrow from person's [who has sorrow]heart, by going hajj.
din is not with beard, cloth, tasbih [physical]
whoever just said 'ali' is not darvish [reached to mahrifat]
every morning we plan how to deceive
every night crying, it's strange!
------
Tried best to translate. It's as close I could get. I know there are points and words that get lost in translation; which is true in any languages. Especially Persian (Farsi) that has a lot of words that could easily be mis-interpreted.
Here is reason why mainstream Muslim perform Hajj.
Importance of Hajj
Hajj: A station of Commemorations: (partial)
When we perform Hajj, we should relate the rituals to our forefathers and ancestors in faith: Ibraheem, Ismaeel, Haajar, and Muhammad (S) as well as the first generations of Muslims. In Hajj, we commemorate them as well as their sacrifice, sincerity, dedication and patience, which constitute the main elements of their legacy. We should not perform Hajj only physically, but spiritually as well. We should try to understand the meaning of every thing we do and see what lessons we can draw. The following points are some reflections on the pillars of Hajj and some other rituals:
From (http://www.hajjnow.com/book/importance.shtml)
Copy between the bracket into your browser to read complete article
Lessons and Reflections:
- Hajj is an act of Worship - not tourism or promenade - which requires a physical and spiritual preparation.
- It is a station of renewing Iman as many other stations where sins are wiped out by forgiveness and where faith, trust, and love of Allah, His Messengers, and the believers increase. The pilgrim gets purified and comes out of his sins like a newborn baby.
- It is a school of training for Taqwah - consciousness of one's duties towards Allah -, good character and discipline like in the other schools of the pillars of Islam.
- It is a manifestation of brotherhood, equality and Unity. The Muslims are like different branches but from one tree. In Hajj, we learn how to develop the Spirit of Unity.
- It is an annual Muslim convention attended by Muslims from different horizons, colors, races, and tongues… They exchange ideas and news and celebrate their unity in faith and diversity in culture. They meet in their center-point Makkah (Qiblah). Muslims always have to have a center-point and should be constantly focused on their noble goals.
I do not want to change the thread. This is just another view. I have no problem if Ismaili faith do not believe in it
Salaam
Yet you are making it as tourism. Recently, I saw an add on one of islamic tv channels that was announcing hajj packages, same way as one would advertise a vacation package to hawaii or tahiti, with 5 star all inclusive, etc.. etc..zznoor wrote: - Hajj is an act of Worship - not tourism or promenade - which requires a physical and spiritual preparation.
On the other hand, if it's spiritual, and we truly realize the purpose of it, then you don't need to spend ~10 grand on the hajj package, instead that 10 grand could be well-spent helping your poor neighbor who is less fortunate to feed his hungry children.
Oh I get it. So, in other words, I could do whatever I want (steal, drink, kill, rape, etc.. etc...) and next year, when hajj time comes, all I need to do is go to hajj and I am all clean. I guess one could keep going on like this keep cleaning himself by just spending some 10 grands every year?zznoor wrote: - It is a station of renewing Iman as many other stations where sins are wiped out by forgiveness and where faith, trust, and love of Allah, His Messengers, and the believers increase. The pilgrim gets purified and comes out of his sins like a newborn baby.
Really? how?zznoor wrote: - It is a manifestation of brotherhood, equality and Unity. The Muslims are like different branches but from one tree. In Hajj, we learn how to develop the Spirit of Unity.
I highly doubt that one HAS to go to mekkah to achieve all this. So, basically you are saying only those who's gone to hajj can only accomplish these and no one else?zznoor wrote: - It is an annual Muslim convention attended by Muslims from different horizons, colors, races, and tongues… They exchange ideas and news and celebrate their unity in faith and diversity in culture. They meet in their center-point Makkah (Qiblah). Muslims always have to have a center-point and should be constantly focused on their noble goals.
I don't think any ismailie claims that they don't believe in hajj. We have different interpretation of hajj (and other elements of faith) in ismailie tariqa. So, what you are saying here[ismailies don't believe in hajj], is wrong dear sister.zznoor wrote: I do not want to change the thread. This is just another view. I have no problem if Ismaili faith do not believe in it
Salaam
Hazir Imam has also said to keep your own culture strong. Native Language is part of your culture.nuseri wrote:
MHI's Farman has said to us to be more proficient in English.
HAMARI BAAT NAHI SUNO TO THEEK HAI
PUR KHUDA KI TO SUNO.
If you do not listen to me,It's fair and Ok.
But at least Listen to GOD.
Ya Ali Madad:
Tret planned to throw a pebble at a preacher but hit the candle hawker at the gate. He indicated that he was a tariqati,so he would better off in debating with those n Shariatis.
To Tret:
Can you please put the transliteration of the whole n if can give synopsis of the whole and not just the verses suiting your interest to make a POV in a posting.
Is is by Nasir Khusraw ?
As you use many couplet,please also give the writers name also as some may like to refer more from it.
Does the Sufi means to saying by saying Ali,Mohamed or other name
with tasbih in hand n offering lip service does not a person a dervish ( a pious person).?
He did say/hinted earlier that to find God/ALI in heart.
What has the word dervish to do with Marifiat?
Is the word Marfiat mentioned in the Qasida?
Your intention has bought the Shariati in your backyard n no Haqaqiti or Tariqati either on your quality of selected translation
Tret planned to throw a pebble at a preacher but hit the candle hawker at the gate. He indicated that he was a tariqati,so he would better off in debating with those n Shariatis.
To Tret:
Can you please put the transliteration of the whole n if can give synopsis of the whole and not just the verses suiting your interest to make a POV in a posting.
Is is by Nasir Khusraw ?
As you use many couplet,please also give the writers name also as some may like to refer more from it.
Does the Sufi means to saying by saying Ali,Mohamed or other name
with tasbih in hand n offering lip service does not a person a dervish ( a pious person).?
He did say/hinted earlier that to find God/ALI in heart.
What has the word dervish to do with Marifiat?
Is the word Marfiat mentioned in the Qasida?
Your intention has bought the Shariati in your backyard n no Haqaqiti or Tariqati either on your quality of selected translation
To zznoor: Ya Ali madad
The word problem is mostly a relational word for an issue.
You said "you have no problem with blah blah blah".
WHO ARE YOU in the first place to observe problems if any of Ismaili
Faith.
What status or authority you have to say that word.
For Ismailis the word 'Hajj' itself is a non entity.
If you relish circling Bhoot Bangla'( word used by you).
Just enjoy the opportunity.
I would say 'just enjoy' rather than say 'I have no problem', as though problem was attached to me since long n have approving or denial authority.
We Ismailis enjoy the opportunity of giving to less fortunate.
Well an Ismaili can se the word 'Problem' in an Ismaili site relating to your presence on the site.( a relational matter)
Please use the words carefully n know your status (candle hawker) on what you post.
The word problem is mostly a relational word for an issue.
You said "you have no problem with blah blah blah".
WHO ARE YOU in the first place to observe problems if any of Ismaili
Faith.
What status or authority you have to say that word.
For Ismailis the word 'Hajj' itself is a non entity.
If you relish circling Bhoot Bangla'( word used by you).
Just enjoy the opportunity.
I would say 'just enjoy' rather than say 'I have no problem', as though problem was attached to me since long n have approving or denial authority.
We Ismailis enjoy the opportunity of giving to less fortunate.
Well an Ismaili can se the word 'Problem' in an Ismaili site relating to your presence on the site.( a relational matter)
Please use the words carefully n know your status (candle hawker) on what you post.
A) Unlike you, I haven't planned anything. If your feelings are hurt, then it's no body's problem. Kindly show me where have I indicated I was tariqati, mahrifati, or x or y? Or else, it's again your opinion, and opinions are like a**holes and every's got'em!... Unlike yourself, mr. know-it-all, I don't categorize myself neither generalize others. I am just an ordinary person seeking the truth, is all. And I don't claim -- again unlike yourself -- that I have reached mahrifat and therefore, I stop reading any books, like Qur'an, great works of our noble Dai's and Pirs. I just provide my POV. It's too bad, if you don't like it or disagree, and you'r welcome to do so.nuseri wrote:Tret planned to throw a pebble at a preacher but hit the candle hawker at the gate. He indicated that he was a tariqati,so he would better off in debating with those n Shariatis. He indicated that he was a tariqati,so he would better off in debating with those n Shariatis.
It was all, nothing but the whole translation. Like I said, I tried my best to translate as close as I could, but unless you know Farsi, you don't get 100% the feeling of it by translating it in another language. The verse that I highlighted it, is what was pertaining to our debate topic.nuseri wrote: To Tret:
Can you please put the transliteration of the whole n if can give synopsis of the whole and not just the verses suiting your interest to make a POV in a posting.
Ni, it's not! You seem to be obssessed with Naser Khusraw saheb. I don't know your obsession is in which way? positive or negative? you admited that your not too much into reading, so that takes out the positive....nuseri wrote: Is is by Nasir Khusraw ?
Like I said, one really need to know the language in which the it has been written originally (Farsi). Now, you are analyzing my interpretation [it's a good example on how different school of toughts interpret Qur'an and disagree with each other, but only the writer knows the true meaning and intention of the verse!].nuseri wrote: As you use many couplet,please also give the writers name also as some may like to refer more from it.
Does the Sufi means to saying by saying Ali,Mohamed or other name
with tasbih in hand n offering lip service does not a person a dervish ( a pious person).?
He did say/hinted earlier that to find God/ALI in heart.
What has the word dervish to do with Marifiat?
Darvish may not mean mahrifat, but in which context is it used, it most certainly implies that! Most people takes tasbih[or grow beard or wear turban and so on and so forth] just to pretend to look a good muslim [momin], that is true intention of the verse.
It is not! but it's implied! I hope you know the difference!nuseri wrote: Is the word Marfiat mentioned in the Qasida?
I am sorry that you feel this way. What I post shows just my POV. My interest is not for anyone who nods to agree or disagree.nuseri wrote: Your intention has bought the Shariati in your backyard n no Haqaqiti or Tariqati either on your quality of selected translation
A peice of advise, please stop categorising and generalizing. It's called prejudice. You pre-judge that all main stream muslims are shariati and all shariatis don't know anything about haqiqat and all haqiqatis don't know anything about mahrifat. I can guarantee you that there are folks in other religions that are closer to devine than most of so-called mahrifati [in their own mind] or so-called haqiqati or x or y.
More than one path may lead to final destination. Ours maybe shorter and easier, but not to say there aren't other paths that don't lead to truth.