Al-Halaj and his declaration "An al-Haq"

[tret]

That ALI was there at the beginning of the earth and the world Allah came later.

Are you sure about that brother? I guess we need to have a debate about the creation to agree/disagree with the above statement. I believe if we understand the creation then we then realize why do we need to seek to reach to higher world. (Suggestion os to read knowledge and liberation by hakim Nasir Khusraw).

So according to you earth is qadeem? Since you claim that god (or Ali for that after) was there?

earth (and for that matter time and space) is the work of an agent. Subhana Tahala has willed. Now who was there at the beginning of earth? Well, at this point the creation has already happened.

[a_27826]

That ALI was there at the beginning of the earth and the world Allah came later.
It is common belief that 'Truth hides nothing'

Was Ali there at the beginning ?

Or Ali has no beginning nor end ? like Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:3

[tret]

Another observation, I don't believe we should be after words, such as allah god etc... These are human invented languages that are used to refer to a concept.

I think its logical to focus on the concept of truth, god, mazhar as opposed to the literal words itself.

[Admin]

In the concept of a continuing Creation by Allah, it is conceivable that Hallaj constantly realised the love of al-Haqq and became al-Haqq though all the attributes can not define He who is Above All Else.

It can not be a realisation of one moment as Creation according to Islam is a continuous act of Allah while in Christianism, we see the Creation happen once and continuing through a linear time concept. (Our's is a cyclical time concept).

And I agree words are limited to the human capacity and can not define God. But people have attempted in very intelligent way to define God by the double negativity... which has been discussed elsewhere in this Forum already...

[tret]

In the concept of a continuing Creation by Allah, it is conceivable that Hallaj constantly realised the love of al-Haqq and became al-Haqq though all the attributes can not define He who is Above All Else.

It can not be a realisation of one moment as Creation according to Islam is a continuous act of Allah while in Christianism, we see the Creation happen once and continuing through a linear time concept. (Our's is a cyclical time concept).

And I agree words are limited to the human capacity and can not define God. But people have attempted in very intelligent way to define God by the double negativity... which has been discussed elsewhere in this Forum already...

Agree with the contentious creation. And we can validate it by posing the question that was asked in 'knowledge and liberation' of Nasir Khusraw; as why subhaa tahala delayed in creation. This is because creation is happening all the time. What I was referring to, was earth's creation. Universe is continuously expanding.

Can you elaborate on the following statement, admin brother?

"Hallaj constantly realised the love of al-Haqq and became al-Haqq"

I believe human's soul purifies by human action and receiving guidance of Imam-e-Zaman.

But, can you say what/if Hallaj made a mistake in declaring 'I am haq' or 'I am god' or something like that?

[Admin]

From Hallaj's point of view, he did not lie. He was saying what he felt. Though he was not God, he lost his identity in God and therefore was from his understanding, completely justified in making his declaration.

This is very common in Sufi thought : When the soul merges into the Divine, there can be no place for two, when asked who are you, the reply is "I am you". "Tunhi Tu." "Only you"

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Hallaj was a base level of Tahwid (unity with God).

At Tawhid a person speaks as one as God and in its trance also does not have control over his speech.

It was the desire Of Ali for him how he wished to be expressed out of Hallaj.
The much superior level are cases of our Pir's n Dai's who were also one with God but converted the same Noorani Hidayat into expressions seen in beauty of Ginans n Qasidas.

Do you think they had the ability to speak deep of the universe n compose their poem.

Here again it was the will of Ali working out of their body as soul were united.

An ability of a Sufi to express much beyond his known capacity is the will and act of Ali moving their mind n also speech many a times.

I can explain this much better by talk than trying to make my POV in English.

It is bit complex topic of Unification with God (tawhid/Asal me wasal).
As these are meta physical convictions.

For those in academics of search.one can say that Nuseri was Haqiqati

No 1,who physically said Ali Allah a second person as first person was Ali
in front of Him Physically.
the next classical case may be not born Ismaili was Hallaj a Marfati
who spoke as God as first person by unifying his soul.

The difference between Haqiqat was two entity as Nuseri and graduating to Hallaj as one unified entity.

We Ismailis are blessed to acheive all the level in progress of our faith.
After all a human being in' Ashraf Ul maklukat'.

Ibadat is precisely is for these with personal experience rather than reading the experiance who went thru it.

BTW one member has mentioned that He is not from Alibaug,Incidentally I am visiting that area to see a nice sea view cottage for me for retirement

[tret]

This is very common in Sufi thought : When the soul merges into the Divine, there can be no place for two, when asked who are you, the reply is "I am you". "Tunhi Tu." "Only you"

Note that ours is different than sufi's, where in sufi's soul is trapped in the body and this world.

Where as for us (ismailies) this world is a necessity for reaching to higher world; in spite of how dangerously attractive it can be.

[Admin]

Our soul merges into Imam's Noor only after death.

[tret]

Our soul merges into Imam's Noor only after death.

What about hallaj?

[Admin]

Well it looks like the soul can loose its identity enough to feel that it has become one with Allah. This is not contradictory with what I wrote.

I suggest that you read the article on Allah in the Encyclopedia of Islam and find out why there is a separate chapter on the definition of Allah in Ismailism. That will be mind opening...

[nuseri]

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.

I presume you are mainly impressed by late Alwaez n recently by a Shariati

candle hawker n encyclopedia of Islam.

I feel you have not fully understood documented Farmans of MHI and Imam

SMS.You are undermining it n challenging it.

I will be taking it forward seriously in next postings.

KYA IMAAN HAI AAPKA. MASHALLAH.

[tret]

Ya Ali Madad.
Hallaj was a base level of Tahwid (unity with God).

At Tawhid a person speaks as one as God and in its trance also does not have control over his speech.

It was the desire Of Ali for him how he wished to be expressed out of Hallaj.
The much superior level are cases of our Pir's n Dai's who were also one with God but converted the same Noorani Hidayat into expressions seen in beauty of Ginans n Qasidas.

Do you think they had the ability to speak deep of the universe n compose their poem.

Here again it was the will of Ali working out of their body as soul were united.

An ability of a Sufi to express much beyond his known capacity is the will and act of Ali moving their mind n also speech many a times.

I can explain this much better by talk than trying to make my POV in English.

It is bit complex topic of Unification with God (tawhid/Asal me wasal).
As these are meta physical convictions.

For those in academics of search.one can say that Nuseri was Haqiqati

No 1,who physically said Ali Allah a second person as first person was Ali
in front of Him Physically.
the next classical case may be not born Ismaili was Hallaj a Marfati
who spoke as God as first person by unifying his soul.

The difference between Haqiqat was two entity as Nuseri and graduating to Hallaj as one unified entity.

We Ismailis are blessed to acheive all the level in progress of our faith.
After all a human being in' Ashraf Ul maklukat'.

Ibadat is precisely is for these with personal experience rather than reading the experiance who went thru it.

BTW one member has mentioned that He is not from Alibaug,Incidentally I am visiting that area to see a nice sea view cottage for me for retirement

I dont think one would become unaware of (loose control of) his actions or speech when/if he reaches higher world.

I value actions (good deeds and good intentions) equally as important and necessary as ebadat! For, without good deeds, ebatat would be in vain.

Animals act without knowing. Angels know without actions. Humans however, have to combine action with intellect; for they have angelic and animal power in them. Human soul is saved only by getting purified, which is via good deeds and recieving hedayat of imam e zaman.

Admiting to something blindly is as vain as following falsehood.

Soul is to be saved! Intellect is already complete! Universal soul is everything that's animatwd AND humans'soul! Hallaj found his place (merged to universal soul). Universal soul is the creation of subhana tahalaa.

[Admin]

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.

I presume you are mainly impressed by late Alwaez n recently by a Shariati

You presume wrong.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Farman of Imam SMS said on 9 th march 1925 in Dar es Salaam.

" DUNIYA MA RAHO, DUNIYAMAA RUHANI MOMAN NA KAAM KARO.AA DUNIYA
MA PUN MOMAN ASLA WA WASAL THAI SAHKE CHE.AAPNA MAZHAB DUNIYA MA RUH NE ASAL MA WASAL THAVU AASAN BABAT CHE".

Farman synopsis of MHI regularly read out in JK. on Hallaj.
I will try to get the date n place later.
MHI has endorsed n upholded the conviction of Hallaj in words akin to it
that his thinking n conviction is very much part of our faith and used the word 'Tawhid' as central to our tariqa.

Both the farmans are CLEARLY guiding that a HAQIQATI humal soul can unify with noor of ALI even whilst living and not after death by default.
and it is much easier in Ismaili faith.

I fully believe in it as I have experienced it personally,as a first person and not hear say basis.

Firstly a human soul is unified with ALI right from it's birth and not just after death.It is unified all of his living life.

religion n faith guides the Human thru his faculty of mind to search, realize, communicate n have absolute feeling of oneness( Asal me wasal/ Tawhid) in his living life.

The expression of oneness is the vast Sufi material we see in the world today.
If all soul would end up in Noor of God without effort then WHY live in stress or the world n have material n religious obligations,It would be better to end life early and unite with HIM.

Getting impressed upon memories of any late person whose quality or Sufism is not endorsed by Imam, in spite of his Farmans on it amuses me.

I will end with with a couplet composed on Tahwid.

KAABA QURAN TU HAI ALI
YEH HAI MERA DAWA ALI
JAB DIL ME BETHA HAI,TU HI ALI
TO ROZ HOTI HUJJ BHI MERI.
AB KAHE KI DUHI ALI.
EK HOJA ALI ALI,EK HOJA ALI ALI
EK HOJA ALI ALI.
MAI NA RAHAA HU AB TO RAHAA HAI SIRF
ALI ALI ALI.

My presumptions way be not fully right but your conviction on it may be wrong.

[Admin]

You interpretation of SMS Farman does not stand in the face of Mowlana Shah Karim's BK Farman where he has said the soul can become one with the Imam only after death.

Half knowledge is dangerous. Go to BK and ask the Mukhi to read the Farmans of Mowlana Shah Karim on the topic. I am not going to post BK Farmans here nor will allow anyone to do so. You are free to believe or not pending your own search of that Farman.

Admin

[tret]

... as I have experienced it personally,as a first person and not hear say basis.

I would be truly curious to know why you claim this? Any base/proof or anything?

Just an observation: I like the facet that you have that much love for Ali.

[a_27826]

You interpretation of SMS Farman does not stand in the face of Mowlana Shah Karim's BK Farman where he has said the soul can become one with the Imam only after death.

Half knowledge is dangerous. Go to BK and ask the Mukhi to read the Farmans of Mowlana Shah Karim on the topic. I am not going to post BK Farmans here nor will allow anyone to do so. You are free to believe or not pending your own search of that Farman.

Admin

so what's your interpretation of Farman of Imam SMS said on 9 th march 1925 in Dar es Salaam ?

[nuseri]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad:
There are also many farmans of Imam SMS stating the same as you have said.It does NOT mean his farman made of tawhid is invalid and even MHI has said on Hallaj and many BK farman that thru ibaadat n love momin can be one with him.

You are trying to take cover a common belief of all religions that soul unites with God after death.( it is there by default with ranking for next phase)
You are much too into Zahiri interpretation of the Farmans mainly the common ones and shying away in disbelief on ONE OFF Farmans on tawhid n Asal me Wasal

can you tell me what is then Marifat ?

Is it a post death effort or result?

In one of MHI
BK Farmans,he in a very sweet way said that you can free

yourself from Shariat with qualitative practice of Ibaadat.

Is goes like that In this act

" You have no relation to Mukhi (read as Shariat)

or any relation with the Council ( read as Tariqat)."

He has blessed every Momin even today what Imam Allazikr Sallam

famous sermon said in past..IF WE UNDERSTOOD THE BAATIN OF THAT

FARMAN..Imams have said we can raise our souls whilst living to the

levels of Pirs n Prophets.SUCH IS THE POWER N BLESSINGS IN ISMAILISM.

It seems to look like you are enjoying more of fried starters (with desi spices)
feeling full with less space in stomach for main course n desserts.
Be careful of acidity n Heart ache

To Tret: Ya Ali madad.

I cannot precisely explain the Bliss in writing as many may not believe it.
One thing for sure after that ,One sings like a canary in praise of ALI.
Rather HE make you sing n one is unaware how the wording came out
of the lips in the first place.

BTW : where are you n 2782 from n background as to more affinity amongst
us members?

[Admin]

One can loose himself in the Attributes while alive in this world but it is only after death that one can merge into God the Essence.

The discussion on God the Attributes and God the Essence has been conducted in another thread in the Forum. Though 2 sides of the same coin, the Essence precedes the Attributes. When the Attributes were not there, the Essence was there.

[tret]

can you tell me what is then Marifat ?

I would be interested to hear other's POV.

This is how I would describe.

You have been to Montreal. But not to any other cities beyond that.
Now, if I ask you how/what is montreal; you will be able to describe it; i.e. how cold it is; the city; how large it is; so on an so forth. Now this is ilm. You have acquired it. Now, if I ask you about Cornawal (another city beyond Montreal); you may say; I know the city is there, but I have never been there. But I know it exists.

Now the second case is mahrifat. You realize it exists, but you don't understand of whatness/howness/whyness. For us it's important to be aware of subhana tahala's existence all the time.

[tret]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad:
There are also many farmans of Imam SMS stating the same as you have said.It does NOT mean his farman made of tawhid is invalid and even MHI has said on Hallaj and many BK farman that thru ibaadat n love momin can be one with him.

You are trying to take cover a common belief of all religions that soul unites with God after death.( it is there by default with ranking for next phase)
You are much too into Zahiri interpretation of the Farmans mainly the common ones and shying away in disbelief on ONE OFF Farmans on tawhid n Asal me Wasal

can you tell me what is then Marifat ?

Is it a post death effort or result?

In one of MHI
BK Farmans,he in a very sweet way said that you can free

yourself from Shariat with qualitative practice of Ibaadat.

Is goes like that In this act

" You have no relation to Mukhi (read as Shariat)

or any relation with the Council ( read as Tariqat)."

He has blessed every Momin even today what Imam Allazikr Sallam

famous sermon said in past..IF WE UNDERSTOOD THE BAATIN OF THAT

FARMAN..Imams have said we can raise our souls whilst living to the

levels of Pirs n Prophets.SUCH IS THE POWER N BLESSINGS IN ISMAILISM.

It seems to look like you are enjoying more of fried starters (with desi spices)
feeling full with less space in stomach for main course n desserts.
Be careful of acidity n Heart ache

To Tret: Ya Ali madad.

I cannot precisely explain the Bliss in writing as many may not believe it.
One thing for sure after that ,One sings like a canary in praise of ALI.
Rather HE make you sing n one is unaware how the wording came out
of the lips in the first place.

BTW : where are you n 2782 from n background as to more affinity amongst
us members?

Sufi's try to reach that momentary state, by doing zikar/ebadat; however, that's temporary. You can not simply disconnect yourself from this physical world all the time to stay in that state of joyful. Simply, because we have other worldly obligations.

We can achieve the same state by following hedayat of imam e zaman. Sufi's theology is to abandon this physical world and reach to higher world by zikar only.

[shiraz.virani]

It feels good to be back on this site after a loooooong time

Anyways coming back to the topic, I just wanna ask nuseri one simple question since hez a marifati....so this question is only and only for nuseri

What does it take to become a marifati ??? and how do you get there ??

[a_27826]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad: can you tell me what is then Marifat ?

Is it a post death effort or result?

Its the batin knowledge.

Can somebody have this knowledge? if yes, then and how can somebody can acquire it?

Refer to Quran 018:064-082, where an unidentified person (Imam of that time? maybe not) reveals some of the hidden knowledge to the Prophet Musa.

But only Imam of the Time has been vested with all the knowledge (refer 036:012)

[agakhani]

Our soul merges into Imam's Noor only after death.

That is true and its called 'ASAL ME WASAL HO JANA' but in my opinion you can also make direct contact with Allah's/Imam's noor when you alive!!! it is strange but it is true, and it is called 'BAKABILLAH"in Islamic theory and in Yogic philosophy it is called 'SAMADHI'. in these stage you do not have to die in this stage you have direct contact with Noor, you can see noor as many time you want, you can achieve this while you are alive but it is not easy may be one in million can reach this top level.

[nuseri]

To Shiraz:Ya Ali madad.
Jagya etlee savar.

Well you asked a very important question.It right on the bull's eye.
It is an effort for every momin to strive for.
Marifat is a stage which comes only after Haqiqat.
One has be an absolute Haqiqati in conviction of His Hazar Imam.

in simple formula ALI= ALLAH =IMAM.( entrance test question).

It is like in normal secular education protocol one can go for Doctorate
Thesis after passing out from masters degree.(there may be exceptions
in cases of Genius).

Till haqiqat reading does help to prepare for Marifat .i e summing of many farmans of Imams n acting on it.

They are basically Farmans on Ibaadat,Ishq n Khidmat.

Theory ends at Haqiqat n all of the 3 above acts n effort towards it
PRACTICAL.Remember that Dean(ALI) is personally monitoring n helping you in your earnest effort.

Now the combination of all three effort.(I may not have the ratio).

over a period of one's life or even many life cycles.REMEMBER credit is
definitely carried forward to next phase of life.
(many must have read of child prodigy or genius in news).

These 3 elements are very much basic but acting n expressing is a purely
individual effort and not a collective effort or debate.

There is no such exams or test perse.But one's life is a test by itself.

It is something that is not by right but rewarded by ALI to whom he wishes.
My assumptions if real Nuseri was Haqaqati No 1 at Hazrat Ali's time

1370 year back.It could have taken him (a stalwart) at least 500 years to even 1370 years to prove his Ibaadat ,Ishq n khidmat.

He only proved his Imaan at that time n was waived off on that( Imaan ka puchana) effort only till Qayamat.

The best part in Ismailsm that most are born as Haqiqati (as nuseri++ credits) as I observe many amongst us.So Marifat could be round the corner for all of us.

[tret]

To Shiraz:Ya Ali madad.
Jagya etlee savar.

Well you asked a very important question.It right on the bull's eye.
It is an effort for every momin to strive for.
Marifat is a stage which comes only after Haqiqat.
One has be an absolute Haqiqati in conviction of His Hazar Imam.

in simple formula ALI= ALLAH =IMAM.( entrance test question).

It is like in normal secular education protocol one can go for Doctorate
Thesis after passing out from masters degree.(there may be exceptions
in cases of Genius).

Till haqiqat reading does help to prepare for Marifat .i e summing of many farmans of Imams n acting on it.

They are basically Farmans on Ibaadat,Ishq n Khidmat.

Theory ends at Haqiqat n all of the 3 above acts n effort towards it
PRACTICAL.Remember that Dean(ALI) is personally monitoring n helping you in your earnest effort.

Now the combination of all three effort.(I may not have the ratio).

over a period of one's life or even many life cycles.REMEMBER credit is
definitely carried forward to next phase of life.
(many must have read of child prodigy or genius in news).

These 3 elements are very much basic but acting n expressing is a purely
individual effort and not a collective effort or debate.

There is no such exams or test perse.But one's life is a test by itself.

It is something that is not by right but rewarded by ALI to whom he wishes.
My assumptions if real Nuseri was Haqaqati No 1 at Hazrat Ali's time

1370 year back.It could have taken him (a stalwart) at least 500 years to even 1370 years to prove his Ibaadat ,Ishq n khidmat.

He only proved his Imaan at that time n was waived off on that( Imaan ka puchana) effort only till Qayamat.

The best part in Ismailsm that most are born as Haqiqati (as nuseri++ credits) as I observe many amongst us.So Marifat could be round the corner for all of us.

I must say that I agree with you when you say something like mahrifat comes only once you know haqiqat. Great!

Now let's step back a little. You are at marifat, from what I read in your posts. Please correct me if I am assuming wrong. So you must have completed haqiqat level already, correct? And haqiqat means truth. Meaning that you must have reached realization or haqiqat already. If so, then please clarify the following questions as all relegions of the world ponder upon.

- concept of creation according to ismaili theology?
- who is creator, what is creation process and what is created?
- concep of tawhid according to ismaili doctrine?
- what is aqli kul and nafsi kul?

Please explain at haqiqat (or even mahrifat) level. I would prefer at haqiqat level, if different.

Please do not take it the wrong way as I am asking these questions for my own benifit and knowledge.

[nuseri]

To Tret :Ya Ali Madad.

I presume you are much into reading into Nasir Khusraw doctrines and testing readers on it data.Your intent here is unhealthy.

Firstly there are two types of Haqiqatis,One is thru Haqiqati Samaj (iilm route)and one is thru Haqaiqati Ehsaas(pure Imaan route)

You are now going into vast material which is not of much practical value
In marifat, as haqiqat thru ehsaas ( Imaan route) is less questioning than Haqiqat samaj thru Iilm route (reading of sufi material).

I personally have not read any doctrines on creation.

As for I stand by conviction n not get imposed by any written material by whom so ever unless said by Imams.

BTW 'Wajah e Din' is banned for reading may be at Zahiri level.

I would stay out of it.

I understand that Imam SMS has said about the creation.

It was the will n plan of ALI, which is my conviction is Aql e Kul
and the blue print process(intent) could be Nafs e Kul.

and how n what he created the the earth n the universe is mentioned in all most all religious.

I am trying to go into essence n 'Inspiration of our faith 'as you are trying to bog it to lower level of Haqiqati Ilm and not even Haqiqati Ehsaas in to 'academics of religion'.Which I am NOT into.

In the in the words of Imam SMS on Zahiri bickering on faith is as Braying and barking.I may not wish to do that

Henry Corbin has covered this topic in his book.

As you are into academics then try to read that.

Honestly I do not have or own much books or take 48 hours to Google it.Just took a loan of Farmans of Imam SMS look like a Baatin gold mine of info.

Are you a Haqiqati?
Can you prove it.

I have set of 10 more questions on Haqiqat for you after that reply n none will be from the books of any writer.

[shiraz.virani]

Nuseri, since you are a marifati...Lemme ask you this

1] How long did it take you to reach marifat ???

2] How did you know you reached marifat ??? [was there a sign ???]

A person who reaches that level has to be a very down to earth, god loving and a very caring person and not someone who would call names to people [for eg: shariatis, barking dogs etc etc]....So Im just trying to figure out what is marifat according to marifati = YOU

[tret]

Mawla ali mada nuseri.

I am really sorry if you feel that way. As I clearly stated the true intention why I asked you these questions.

First its not Nasir Khusraw's doctrine. Its ismaili theology and school of thoughts. Second, I dont know where you get this idea of me testing other reader? I dont need to test anyone. After all who am I to permit myself in doing so? And who would care?

You actually missed the whole point. There waz a reason why I asked you these questions which were leading the debate to the actual point.

I asked you to try and ponder the concept of creation where we could find the answer. I strongly believe if we realize the concept of creation we would have better understanding of who to worship and why and what is the truth. Then mahrifat comes next which is to live haqiqat. I honestly didnt wish you mistook my questions.
Second, you didnt even bother to say anything about tawhid which is one of the very important pillars of our ismaili tariqa. And your formula actually contradicts that very same pillar of our tariqa.
You may think you reached mahrifat by putting imam Ali and allah on each side of the equation, but you failed to demonstrate whether you even reached realization.

Waje din is banned? This is absurd. Waje din is fiqah of ismaili. I dont understand why do you try to spread false rumors? (Reference please?)

Honestly I dont even know what are you trying to say by two types of haqiqat? You reach haqiqat by realizing the truth. If you truly did reach mahrifat, then the questions I posed would be easily answered by. Like you said it well, mahrifat comes only after haqiqat or else you would mistake the canary singing outside your window and mahrifat cant be achieved by daydreaming.

I am not claiming anything. I am an ismaili muslim who is thirsty to find the truth. I dont claim to be haqiqati or mahrifati. But you are most welcome to pose your questions. However, me, I dont get offended if I dont know the answers.