Is Quran compilation complete?

[zznoor]

Most confusions come from Ahadith.

The Prophet is supposed to have said "Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya"

I don't think it would be wise of anyone to try to correct our beloved Profit! He would have known best, and He did, what He has stated.

no, no no. I wouldn’t dream of correcting Prophet's words.

I personally find the statement correct.

Obviously one who hasn't recognize Imam of the Time, is certainly ignorant.

But did the Prophet really made that statement?

Not all Ahadith genuine.

Since this statement is true, does not necessarily mean it was made by the Prophet.

Somebody may have faked it by attributing it to the Prophet.

But yes, the statement is correct.

Ahadith are used to creat Fitna. Shia use Sunni Ahadith to prove their POV and contemptuously reject if it tend to nullify their POV.
Mainstream Muslim do not need Shia Ahadith. They have Quran and Ahadith to run their spiritual and worldly affairs.

[zznoor]

To further elaborate on 4:34

According to many learned persons beating part becomes null and void if one considers Prophets Ahadith

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

And his conduct. He never lifted finger to admonish his wives.

Ismailis should seek direction from their imam, how he handled differences with his two exes? Did he leave their bed? Did he try to correct their behavior? Did he seek help from third party?

His personal experience should be much help for his Murids and other Muslims.

[zznoor]

There was/is no need for hadis in this matter, since Gadir-e-khum's event should be more than sufficient.

Mainstream Muslims have their explanations of Ghadir event and it, has become impossible to reconcile both POV.

Al Azar fatwa has accepted Imami Shiasm as fifth branch of Islam. Effort should be to build on that. There is much common between them.

[tret]

Ahadith are used to creat Fitna. Shia use Sunni Ahadith to prove their POV and contemptuously reject if it tend to nullify their POV.
Mainstream Muslim do not need Shia Ahadith.

There you go! Then, first you have to settle down with mainstream shia (twelvers). I mean that's what mainstream sunni/mainstream shia do and have been doing so far; trying to prove who's right or wrong; but you very well stated that it could never happen, since each of them are using their own version of ahadis, in the process of doing that they all forget the most precious 'khelqat' of God, which is men. Why can't we just let it be! to you yours, to me mine?

They have Quran and Ahadith to run their spiritual and worldly affairs.

And how is it working for them?

[tret]

There was/is no need for hadis in this matter, since Gadir-e-khum's event should be more than sufficient.

Mainstream Muslims have their explanations of Ghadir event and it, has become impossible to reconcile both POV.

Can you enlighten us, and explain what's your version?

[nuseri]

my qu
estion on zina a or b is open to all.try it or toss a coin to answer.

[tret]

To further elaborate on 4:34

According to many learned persons beating part becomes null and void if one considers Prophets Ahadith

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

And his conduct. He never lifted finger to admonish his wives.

Ismailis should seek direction from their imam, how he handled differences with his two exes? Did he leave their bed? Did he try to correct their behavior? Did he seek help from third party?

His personal experience should be much help for his Murids and other Muslims.

Well, it's really hard for you (non Imamia) to understand what dualism means, as a result you have trouble realizing all this. I'd like to give the following optical illusion as an example to make one understand. Imam lives in a human form; but Imam has another role, which is spiritual/religious. It depends on your perception which one you'd like to see.

Take a look at this picture, and tell me what do you see? You'll probably see a young girl or an older lady. two pictures in one. But, you see each, by changing your perception. Remember, the picture doesn't change, your perception does.

To Imam in His different role, other than human, one need to change his perception. Unfortunately, you will never understand this. I wish you would.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/YoungGirl- ... usion.html

[agakhani]

Ahadith are used to creat Fitna.

Absolutely right sister! not only that but many ahadiths were also created to put "Ahle Bait family" down and disparaged Hazarat Ali (s.a.).

Mainstream Muslim do not need Shia Ahadith.

Same way, we Shia do not need Sunny Ahadith, specially written and narrated by Abu Hurera and Ummul Moamin "Ayesa", in many ahadiths of them, you can find nothing in it but only lies!!!

I, do not want to put those ahadiths here in closing moments of this thread!, but Inshaallah may be in another thread. "Allah ne chaha to, Bahenji"

[a_27826]

But did the Prophet really made that statement?

Not all Ahadith genuine.

Since this statement is true, does not necessarily mean it was made by the Prophet.

Somebody may have faked it by attributing it to the Prophet.

But yes, the statement is correct.

There was/is no need for hadis in this matter, since Gadir-e-khum's event should be more than sufficient.

Interesting point you have raised.........if Prophet did really made that that statement ""Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya", then there was no really need for:

1. 5:67 "O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to you from your Lord; for if you do not, you will not have delivered His Message", and then

2. Declaration from Ghadir e Khumm, " I am leaving in your midst two valuable things, the holy book, Quran and my Ahlul Bayt. They will not separate from each other until they meet me at the Pond. So, if you attach yourselves to these two, you shall never go wrong after me", and then

3. 005:003 "Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion"

[tret]

But did the Prophet really made that statement?

Not all Ahadith genuine.

Since this statement is true, does not necessarily mean it was made by the Prophet.

Somebody may have faked it by attributing it to the Prophet.

But yes, the statement is correct.

There was/is no need for hadis in this matter, since Gadir-e-khum's event should be more than sufficient.

Interesting point you have raised.........if Prophet did really made that that statement ""Whoever dies without knowing the Imam of the age, dies as if he has died in the age of Jahiliya", then there was no really need for:

1. 5:67 "O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to you from your Lord; for if you do not, you will not have delivered His Message", and then

2. Declaration from Ghadir e Khumm, " I am leaving in your midst two valuable things, the holy book, Quran and my Ahlul Bayt. They will not separate from each other until they meet me at the Pond. So, if you attach yourselves to these two, you shall never go wrong after me", and then

3. 005:003 "Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion"

Well, I don't see anything off here. Do you?

Notice, it's mentioned, 'I have perfected your religion". Not you. So religion (Islam) has always been perfect. It's men who are not. That's why we need the Guide all the time along with the Book of God (Qura'an).

[a_27826]

To further elaborate on 4:34

According to many learned persons beating part becomes null and void if one considers Prophets Ahadith

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

And his conduct. He never lifted finger to admonish his wives.

There you go.

When you see a contradiction between a hadith and a verse of Quran, you say the hadith has abrogated the verse.

There is no contradiction between the ahadith which you quoted and 004:034

Actually the husband is being kind to her by disciplining her for her perverseness and guiding her to the true path rather than abandoning her.

[agakhani]

So religion (Islam) has always been perfect.

What about the other religions before Islam?
were they not perfect? before Islam there were many other religions on earth like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism e.t.c question! were these religions not perfect? if it is true then, is it fair?

[a_27826]

To further elaborate on 4:34

According to many learned persons beating part becomes null and void if one considers Prophets Ahadith

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

And his conduct. He never lifted finger to admonish his wives.

There you go.

When you see a contradiction between a hadith and a verse of Quran, you say the hadith has abrogated the verse.

There is no contradiction between the ahadith which you quoted and 004:034

Actually the husband is being kind to her by disciplining her for her perverseness and guiding her to the true path rather than abandoning her.

Just add a comment, if one thinks a hadith contradicts a verse from the Quran (and they are many of such kind), then I think the hadith should be quarantined.

[shiraz.virani]

shamsB bhai said :

Admin,

Who are you quoting farmans to?

These people are more intelligent that the Imam himself - who is Rasikun fil Ilm.

Do you think a farman makes sense to them? or is acceptable to them?


Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah in Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen has clearly addressed the issue of the Qur'an being incomplete and altered. Yet we still go down scholarly paths to prove one way or another.
Yes, our faith is one of intellect - but our faith is bound to the Imam.

The Qur'an itself attests that the knowledge and authority of everything vests in him. Yet we question and try to prove him wrong.

I think this thread has run it's course.

For the record ZZNOOR - i bow down to the IMAM - and if that makes me a nonmuslim along with my sect of ismailies - and that will cause you to follow your faith's instructions - to you yours and to me mine - I will organize a sagridham and dandiya that you are now finally following your faith and on your way to heaven and will get the 72 houries.
Btw what sex are those houries? coz the quran doesn't talk about the sex or the nature - just that there are 72 of them.

Shams

Shams bhai/ Admin bhai, I think you have missed my point when I said all 73+ sects merge into one source i.e allah[swt]....It was just my opinion, that's all !!!

As I said earlier there is more to quran than 114 chapters....what we have today is what is left of holy quran.

As we have seen the words have been interpreted in different ways in holy quran....Like for ex: Imamin Mubin....So yes, I'm convinced that the actual interpretation lies with the imam of the time who is manifest and living.

Coming back to zznoor, I think either she is blind or she chose to ignore what Al Suyuti bhai has to say in the past....A sunni writer wrote about the merits and his [Imam Ali[as]] role as imam of the ummah on great length but I guess zznoor simply chose to ignore the facts and run around.

I think sister zznoor doesn't wanna talk about battle of camel and why ...well for the obvious reasons.

Brother Tret and agakhani bhai, it looks as if you two are hell bent on proving each other wrong...I request you two to end you silly debate and move on.

[tret]

So religion (Islam) has always been perfect.

What about the other religions before Islam?
were they not perfect? before Islam there were many other religions on earth like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism e.t.c question! were these religions not perfect? if it is true then, is it fair?

Good question. This is one of the questions that a Jew/Christians may very well ask a Muslim. They could argue that, well if God is all knowing why didn't He perfected Jewdaism or Christianity? Why God waited so long to perfect men's religion (Islam)?

The answer is: Men at those stages (H. Mousah, H Eesah) weren't capable enough to digest what's mentioned in Qura'an. Qura'an completes Bible and Tourat. We believe in Jesus and Moses. They are our own (H Eesah, and H Mousah).

You can think of it as school grade books. i.e. you need to primary school first, where you have books only about primary grade. You need to learn ABC first, before making a sentence. Then you to secondary grades. You need to learn 123 before you learn how to solve complex equations. Finally you graduate from high school, and you should be educated enough, which is Qura'an the and the religion was perfected.

[shiraz.virani]

The answer is: Men at those stages (H. Mousah, H Eesah) weren't capable enough to digest what's mentioned in Qura'an. Qura'an completes Bible and Tourat. We believe in Jesus and Moses. They are our own (H Eesah, and H Mousah).

Just like how quran completes the bible and torah in the same way it's the imam of the time who completes the holy quran.

[tret]

The answer is: Men at those stages (H. Mousah, H Eesah) weren't capable enough to digest what's mentioned in Qura'an. Qura'an completes Bible and Tourat. We believe in Jesus and Moses. They are our own (H Eesah, and H Mousah).

Just like how quran completes the bible and torah in the same way it's the imam of the time who completes the holy quran.

Couldn't agree more. And this should be underscored, for zznoor's info.

[a_27826]

So religion (Islam) has always been perfect.

What about the other religions before Islam?
were they not perfect? before Islam there were many other religions on earth like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism e.t.c question! were these religions not perfect? if it is true then, is it fair?

I think Tret is trying to say that Islam always existed as a perfect religion, that means all prophets (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad) preached the same perfect Islam.

[a_27826]

The answer is: Men at those stages (H. Mousah, H Eesah) weren't capable enough to digest what's mentioned in Qura'an. Qura'an completes Bible and Tourat. We believe in Jesus and Moses. They are our own (H Eesah, and H Mousah).

Just like how quran completes the bible and torah in the same way it's the imam of the time who completes the holy quran.

I always thought Quran confirms (rather than completes) previous scriptures.

003:003 He has sent down upon you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

[tret]

The answer is: Men at those stages (H. Mousah, H Eesah) weren't capable enough to digest what's mentioned in Qura'an. Qura'an completes Bible and Tourat. We believe in Jesus and Moses. They are our own (H Eesah, and H Mousah).

Just like how quran completes the bible and torah in the same way it's the imam of the time who completes the holy quran.

I always thought Quran confirms (rather than completes) previous scriptures.

003:003 He has sent down upon you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

What I think, is besides confirming (like our own H.Eesah, and H.Mousah), it adds to them. Hence, completes them.

[Admin]

When Allah asked to the Angels, Am I not your Lord? They replied Yes you are. This is the beggining of Islam, submission to Allah.

Whatever Prophets were sent by Allah after this moment were all preaching Islam.

But according to their time their believers were called by various names such as Hindus, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Satpanthis.... etc

It is all part of the development of the BOOK, it is all part of Islam. In Allah's creation, Nothing is outside the BOOK. Nothing is outside Allah's Light.

To paraphrase, I would say "In the begining was the Word [Quran, Light] The Word was with Allah and the Word was Allah."

In this equation, Usman does not have any place.

[zznoor]

Some Old Manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an

From Shia web site

*http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol-8 ... lers-quran

remove * in front of link and paste it in your browser to read long but interesting article.

[agakhani_1]

ZZ and BAHURUPI,
let researcher to find out how many changes has been made in USMANIA quran in comparison old manuscript just found in British library. eventually they will let us know because it is too early to compare both quran without the possession of old manuscript for any one.
Just for now we (some scholars ) knows that there are many changes has heen made in current quran and I am one of them who believes that current Quran is a book, nothing more than that.
We also knows that the real and complete Quran is in possession of Ismaili imams and we also knows that soon or latter that quran will be Introduced. my prediction is a revolt will broken out for changes made in Quran by Mullah, molwis and Caliphs. Subas and some Gaddars to earn few bucks!

BTW: The recently found manuscript is just a start more still has to come. Read my previos posts in which I gave more details! So be ready for bombshell which will going to explode in near future.

but today I am repeating my question again which you lied in an Ismaili forum that : SMS told in his one farman that he will him shelf introduce the complete Quran! I want to know when and where this kind farman was made?

[agakhani_1]

Sorry the Website does not allowed me to edit my previous post so that I have to do post script.

defiition of word,
We means some deep reaserchers.

[zznoor]

ZZ and BAHURUPI,
let researcher to find out how many changes has been made in USMANIA quran in comparison old manuscript just found in British library. eventually they will let us know because it is too early to compare both quran without the possession of old manuscript for any one.
Just for now we (some scholars ) knows that there are many changes has heen made in current quran and I am one of them who believes that current Quran is a book, nothing more than that.
We also knows that the real and complete Quran is in possession of Ismaili imams and we also knows that soon or latter that quran will be Introduced. my prediction is a revolt will broken out for changes made in Quran by Mullah, molwis and Caliphs. Subas and some Gaddars to earn few bucks!

BTW: The recently found manuscript is just a start more still has to come. Read my previos posts in which I gave more details! So be ready for bombshell which will going to explode in near

Quran is for true believers of Islam.

In fact, the first few verses of the first chapter after the opening of the Qur’an confirm that true believers will have a firm belief that does not accept doubts in their faith.

“This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah – Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, and who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.” [2:2-5]

There is no bombshell in this discovery nor there will be one in future.

[Admin]

There is no bombshell in this discovery nor there will be one in future.

This is exactly what differentiate the Ismailis Muslims from other Muslim.

Ismailis are open to the idea that Allah can send new knowledge wherever He decides to do this regardless of what people believe.

Our definition of God does not restrict Allah's power to act and create what He wishes, whenever and wherever He wishes.

This is why ismaili children and particularly girls are well educated, which allows them to sustain intellectual discussion

[agakhani_1]

I agree with admin that we are different type ismaili Muslims who has Rahbar on them he who guides us for the progress on both fields a, worldly anr ruhani fileds.
Look around the world Ismailis are a unique community! It has well educated peoples, looks again around the world the Govt are approaching Agakhan to visit their country! They offers to grant citizenships to Ismailis, show me any comunity or sects who also receives this kinds luxuries?

Wait just few decades more if you live that long then you will remember this that one person from Texas wrote that thet Time has come of Zahoorat. The more and more discoveries will be find out towards real and unchanged quran and hadiths.

Eji khota dharshe pustak, ne chopania ane khota dharse te ved ane puran
Athar ved ma em bhkhiya ane vali khota tharshe te" KAJI, MULLAH TANA QURAN!"
Salwat.
for reference of above verses Look in "DEVAYAT PANDIT AKHYAN" he was Hindu but his predictions are well known he was a disciple of Pir Sadardin who has also composed a well known ginan " EJI FARAT NEJA TAMBAL VAGASHE, CHASHE TE DEV....

[junglikhan4]

ZZ and BAHURUPI,
let researcher to find out how many changes has been made in USMANIA quran in comparison old manuscript just found in British library. eventually they will let us know because it is too early to compare both quran without the possession of old manuscript for any one.
Just for now we (some scholars ) knows that there are many changes has heen made in current quran and I am one of them who believes that current Quran is a book, nothing more than that.
We also knows that the real and complete Quran is in possession of Ismaili imams and we also knows that soon or latter that quran will be Introduced. my prediction is a revolt will broken out for changes made in Quran by Mullah, molwis and Caliphs. Subas and some Gaddars to earn few bucks!

BTW: The recently found manuscript is just a start more still has to come. Read my previos posts in which I gave more details! So be ready for bombshell which will going to explode in near future.

but today I am repeating my question again which you lied in an Ismaili forum that : SMS told in his one farman that he will him shelf introduce the complete Quran! I want to know when and where this kind farman was made?

Reply,

It was the copy of same Usmania Quran kissed by Shah Karim Hazar Imam in public.
In first paragraph of preamble, Imam has mentioned," Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind and is universal and eternal."

PARHAY QURAN KITABA BHUJAY
TO TUJHEY RAHA NABI KI SUJHEY ( BHUJ NIRINJAN )

QURAN PARHAY DIL ROSHAN HOWEY
MOMIN DIL BAHUT HOWEY SUKH ( KALAM E MOWLA )

PIR SADARDIN YARA PARHAY RE QURAN ( PIR SADRUDDIN )

You have written the real and complete Quran is in the possession of Ismaili Imams! Why not Imam keep the real Quran on display in Toronto museum.
Let the world know. Let the Ismailis see. I am dying to see it.
Mr. AK you are not the spoke person of Imam. Do not spread the wrong information.

[Admin]

You forgot

"MOHMAN DIL QURAN"

Follow the Bolto Quran. If you are an Ismaili it matters a lot, else it does not matter what you follow.

[kmaherali]

It was the copy of same Usmania Quran kissed by Shah Karim Hazar Imam in public.
In first paragraph of preamble, Imam has mentioned," Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind and is universal and eternal."

That is the zahir for the whole mankind. But from the batin there is a verse of the Ginan: E Sabhaga:

e sabhaagaa aape shaah mulaa aape shaah kaazee
aape ved kuraan sabhaagaa.............................8

O fortunate one, the Imam himself is the scholar, He himself is the judge, He himself is the ved (holy scriptures) and the Qur'aan, fortunate one.