Is Quran compilation complete?

[agakhani]

Agakhani, why is it that whenever someone gives you any counter productive answers you either simply leave the debate or come up with different questions ???

Escape? I am in this forum more then 5 years Shiraz, actually I joined this website in year 2003 with my real name but didn't start to right in forum until year 2008 with this name so, there is no question to escape or run away!.

But I think you may here this idiom:-

"Andhe ke Aage Naachna( dance) aour behre aage Gana(Music) bevkufi hai!" which fits many readers in this forum except some decent readers like you and few others.

agakhani - So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't know what he's talking about, right?

Let me ask you this: If you don't believe in the words of Allah and his Book, then why do you consider yourself to be a muslim? do you?

Off course not but what I trying to prove that Quran has been tampered latter years, It doesn't mean that Allah made mistake
( Astgafirullah) not bro, but the mistakes or contradictory ayas which I am posting here were made by those peoples who made changes in holy Quran during compilation. and I have proof that these kind changes were continue till the Abbasi Calif Haroon Al Rashid. So there is no question not to believe in Allah and Holy Book Quran, I do read Quran on and off ( matter of fact I finished 3-4 weeks ago not first time but I lost count ) but I as an Ismaili I give more importance to Farmans of MHI and Ginans, which are Tafsir of quran and in my thinking it is more informative in comparison with Quran.
2, In my opinion Quran is Quiet Quran and it doesn't have solution for many modern time Question therefore we need some one who is Rasikun Fil Ilm and that Rasikun Fin Ilm is our Mowla and that is why if I do not read the Quran and only read his farmans and ginans then it is fine with me and that was I heard in many waez and read in many books but in my case I read Quran as well so nobody can say that I am not Muslim. Not only Quran but I do read the holy book of other religions too.
Do you know there are many peoples in Saudi they do not believe in Quran but believe in Hadis or gives more importance to Hadish in comparison with Quran!!??

[agakhani]

If you read quran agakhani bhai which I'm very sure you do...Allah[swt] also says in the book that the universe is ever expanding and on the given term [set by allah[swt]] it would shrink back again.

In the same quran allah[swt] talks about layers of waves and darkness inside the vast oceans

But anyways, lets just answer few of your present and future questions :

1] Is earth egg shaped ??

The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [79:30]

The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse.

Dahaha [mentioned in quran] is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is Geo spherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.

Thanks Shiraz for your decent post but be honest with you I already goggled this before my above question Not only this but I also read the answer of Dr. Zakir Naik and other Quranic scholars on this question; whether this earth is flat or not? but sorry to say I can not find any satisfactory answer over there.
However, I should say so far your answer is more reliabale answer but Let me ask you this why Allahtala using the word "Bed" in one ayas and in another Ayas he uses the different word "Dahaha" for the earth? Are there two earths in Galaxy?

And Off course I do read Quran as I mentioned you earlier many times.

[agakhani]

There was no Shia Sunni division until imam Jafar's time.

Where did you find out this? The first 'Sunnat wal Jamat"word used by Muawia in hizari year 41 and after the death of Hazart Ali (s.a.), I am not telling this but strict unny Scholar Alama Jalauddin Siyuti wrote this in his one book.

Actually Shia and Sunni division was stated right after the death of Prophet but Muawia gave the official name sunnat wal jamat so there was Shia and Sunni division before Imam Jafar Sadiq.

[shiraz.virani]

Agakhani bhai said :

However, I should say so far your answer is more reliabale answer but Let me ask you this why Allahtala using the word "Bed" in one ayas and in another Ayas he uses the different word "Dahaha" for the earth? Are there two earths in Galaxy?

I dunno whether there are 2 earths in our galaxy [which is very much likely] but the quran as revealed to rasool[saw] is the book for mankind living on our planet

The meaning of the term "bed" is that allah[swt] has made this earth habitable/suitable for us...This is the only planet [that we humans know of] that supports life....So when allah[swt] uses the term "bed"...that doesn't mean queen or king bed but instead he means that out of his mercy he made this planet which we call earth habitable/suitable.

There are various meanings of "dahaha" depending on the context it is being applied to...It may also be translated as "EXPANDED IT , MADE EGG SHAPED etc etc "

If we take DAHAHA as "EXPANDED IT"...well allah[swt] himself says in quran that he has expanded earth...I even gave you few examples in my earlier posts of that.

If we take DAHAHA as "EGG SHAPED"....well whose egg ???...Some translators tried to interpret DAHAHA as an egg of an ostrich. You can google this if you want brother an ostrich's egg is round and not like a chicken egg. This few interpreters are the one who caused this confusion where as the actual interpretation of the word

DAHAHA = Expanse, Expand, Extended, Stretched and so on

I hope I answered your question

[a_27826]

an ostrich's egg is round and not like a chicken egg.

I think ostrich's egg is more oval shaped than roundish like chicken egg.

[a_27826]

DAHAHA = Expanse, Expand, Extended, Stretched and so on

can you add "spread" among the words related to "dahaha" ?

[a_27826]

If we take DAHAHA as "EGG SHAPED"....well whose egg ???...Some translators tried to interpret DAHAHA as an egg of an ostrich.

The word dahaha has got nothing with any kind of egg.

Closest you relate to an egg is when ostrich wants lay an egg, it "spreads" out earth to lay it. But that doesn't mean spread = egg or spread = earth nor earth = egg.

[shiraz.virani]

I think ostrich's egg is more oval shaped than roundish like chicken egg.

Im sorry I think I got it twisted...my apologies for that...what I meant to say was its not the earth that is egg shaped but its cycle [the way it orbits around the sun] is

[a_27826]

079:027-033 What! Are you harder to create or the heaven He built? He raised its height and fashioned it; and darkened its night, and brought forth its forenoon and the earth-after that He spread it out, there from brought forth its waters and its pastures, And the mountains He did firmly set, an enjoyment for you and your flocks.

I think we should keep out round, oval and flat shaped eggs out of the above verses……..

for example if I say “United States “Spread” democracy on the earth” it does not mean “United States made earth "flat" by spreading democracy”

Let’s understand the message God wants to convey rather than literal meanings of words.

[zznoor]

How about bed of flower?
Can that mean undulating field of flower plants!

[a_27826]

How about bed of flower?
Can that mean undulating field of flower plants!

i am now beginning to believe the earth is really flat and why shouldn't I believe that ? I mean when i move from one place to another, I don't move upwards nor downwards to complete the circular journey.

[zznoor]

There was no Shia Sunni division until imam Jafar's time.

Where did you find out this? The first 'Sunnat wal Jamat"word used by Muawia in hizari year 41 and after the death of Hazart Ali (s.a.), I am not telling this but strict unny Scholar Alama Jalauddin Siyuti wrote this in his one book.y

Actually Shia and Sunni division was stated right after the death of Prophet but Muawia gave the official name sunnat wal jamat so there was Shia and Sunni division before Imam Jafar Sadiq.

Find by googling following

BRIA 20 4 b Islam Divided: The Shiites and Sunnis
Under
Shiism you will find this

Shiism

The Shiites of Kufa felt guilty about not rallying behind Husayn at Karbala and vowed revenge against the Umayyads. In 749, the Kufans backed a revolt led by a member of the Abbas family, which was related to Muhammad (al-Abbas was Muhammad’s uncle). The rebel leader, however, was not a Shiite. When the revolt succeeded, a new dynasty (the Abbasids) took over the expanding Muslim Empire. The Abbasids established their capital at Baghdad in Iraq.

Shiites were once again disappointed that a relative of Ali did not become the new caliph. Once the Abbasids gained power, they persecuted the Shiites just as the Umayyads had done.

For many years after Ali’s murder, the Shiites differed with other Muslims mainly on the political question of who should be the caliph. Around 750, however, Jafar al-Sadiq, the leading Shiite religious scholar, combined the ideas of other scholars into the doctrine of the Imamate.

According to the Imamate, God provided each generation with an Imam who was the rightful leader of the Muslim community. The Imam, who was free of sin, held authority on both religious and political matters, interpreted the Koran and Sunnah, and spoke on God’s behalf. Those who accepted the teachings of their Imam were saved from hell.

Also please note that both Imam Baqir and Jafar held many talks (waiz) in masjid in Madina. This talks were attended by both Shia ut Ali and non Shia ut Ali scholars and students. One of scholar was Abu Hanifa whose followers founded Hanafi Madhab and other was Imam Jafar's student Imam Malik whose followers founded Maliki Mhadhab. If Imam Jafar claimed to be Shia, do you think any so called Sunni would have attended his talks(waiz)?

BTW Imam Shafie and His Student Imam Humbal were not Student of Imam Jafar. They were born much later after death of Jafar RA.
Salaam

[Admin]

I think there is a Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah talking of the split and calling one group the Shia of Ali and the other Shia of Muawiya, I understood that both groups were called Shia to begin with then one - the Shia of Muawiya- took the name of Sunni. Can anyone trace that Farman?

[agakhani]

Find by googling following

Goggling on internet or looking answer in Wikipedia is not reliable sources for history because the information we read is put on by readers like you and me.
I am at work now but tomorrow I will put reliable sources from your Sunny sect that way you can believe easily. but meanwhile I will back my above quote that Muawia used the first "Sunnat al- Jamat "word.

[agakhani]

Are you guys ready for another question which can prove that Quran is incomplete!!!????

I have noticed that some readers do not like my efforts because they think Quran can not be incomplete or wrong but sorry guys I do not believe that way. I will put another question shortly but remember this it is not to hurt your feelings nor to make off balance your faith and your love towards Quran.

[shiraz.virani]

agakhani bhai said :

Are you guys ready for another question which can prove that Quran is incomplete!!!????

I have noticed that some readers do not like my efforts because they think Quran can not be incomplete or wrong but sorry guys I do not believe that way. I will put another question shortly but remember this it is not to hurt your feelings nor to make off balance your faith and your love towards Quran

Agakhani bhai, before you put another question I just wanna ask you...are you satisfied with answers given by all of us regarding flat bed, flat earth, egg and what not ???

If yes then that's good but
If not, then why ???

[tret]

Are you guys ready for another question which can prove that Quran is incomplete!!!????

I have noticed that some readers do not like my efforts because they think Quran can not be incomplete or wrong but sorry guys I do not believe that way. I will put another question shortly but remember this it is not to hurt your feelings nor to make off balance your faith and your love towards Quran.

agakhani, listen to yourself for once! what are you trying to prove as a MUSLIM ISMAILI? Your belief and way of thinking makes me think that you are not considering yourself a muslim.

What pisses me off that some of our ismaili brothers/sisters consider themselves ismaili but not muslim. If you ask them if you are a muslim, they say no, but i am an ismaili. Are you one of those people?

You are not hurting any boy's feeling, you are simply revealing about yourself and your ideologies, that's all.

I can tell you loudly that I do not agree with your ideologies even one bit. and I hope that may maula give you guidance.

[a_27826]

agakhani bhai said :

Are you guys ready for another question which can prove that Quran is incomplete!!!????

I have noticed that some readers do not like my efforts because they think Quran can not be incomplete or wrong but sorry guys I do not believe that way. I will put another question shortly but remember this it is not to hurt your feelings nor to make off balance your faith and your love towards Quran

Agakhani bhai, before you put another question I just wanna ask you...are you satisfied with answers given by all of us regarding flat bed, flat earth, egg and what not ???

If yes then that's good but
If not, then why ???

If one wants to discuss unclear verses of the Quran, then why not discuss interesting verses like 002:067-74?

In 002:067-74, God tells Jews to sacrifice a yellow cow and then God resurrects a dead person by having it hit by a piece of a yellow cow.

It’s interesting to note that the Jews did find/had a yellow cow to sacrifice.

[agakhani]

I can tell you loudly that I do not agree with your ideologies even one bit. and I hope that may maula give you guidance.

I know that for long time Tret that you do not agree with me, you are keep telling me this trash more than a year, if you do not agree with my post simply do not read it, but this thread is is Quran complete or not? and whatever I am posting here is about that subject.

Your belief and way of thinking makes me think that you are not considering yourself a muslim.

Don't worry about my thinking or belief, whatever my belief is every one in this forum knows for more then 5 years so, you do not have to worry about that but since you have already asked me this three time in your recent posts let me make it clear one more time here that I am 100% Muslim first and then after I am an Ismaili . By the way you can not judge any one's faith just reading his/her posts

So, I do not want to hear this BS again and again from you ok, if you don't like my post then stay away it.

[agakhani]

If yes then that's good but
If not, then why ???

Good question shiraz and a_27826,

Answer:- Yes
I thought I already answered that but let me tell again yes I satisfied 75% with your and A_ 27826 answers as long as earth is flat or not? but there are many other peoples my colligue who are still thinking that Allah tells that earth is flat and they says Quran is outdated.

Now, you may ask me why not 25% then?

This answer is tough for me, but let me explain it, if earth was not flat in Allah's mind then why would have he reveled 9 ayas on same subject and if you read first time then you can easily think that earth is flat, that is what I first thought because of my zero knowledge in Arabic.

Thanks for your help, that way I learned little more.

[a_27826]

If yes then that's good but
If not, then why ???

Good question shiraz and a_27826,

Answer:- Yes
I thought I already answered that but let me tell again yes I satisfied 75% with your and A_ 27826 answers as long as earth is flat or not? but there are many other peoples my colligue who are still thinking that Allah tells that earth is flat and they says Quran is outdated.

Now, you may ask me why not 25% then?

This answer is tough for me, but let me explain it, if earth was not flat in Allah's mind then why would have he reveled 9 ayas on same subject and if you read first time then you can easily think that earth is flat, that is what I first thought because of my zero knowledge in Arabic.

Thanks for your help, that way I learned little more.

Yes we know earth is spherical.

Yes we know know there is God.

Yes we know yellow cows do exist.

But how do we know all that?

[agakhani]

To ZZnoor,

Goggling on internet or looking answer in Wikipedia is not reliable sources for history because the information we read is put on by readers like you and me.
I am at work now but tomorrow I will put reliable sources from your Sunny sect that way you can believe easily. but meanwhile I will back my above quote that Muawia used the first "Sunnat al- Jamat "word.

You can find this that first time 'EHLE SUNNAT-AL-JAMAT" word used by Muawia in following Sunny scholar books I am also giving you page # to make your work easy.

1, "TWARIKH -E- KHOLFA" written by welknown Sunny scholar Alama Jalaluddin Siyuti page # 132

2, "SHARAH FIKHE AKABR' published in Misar page # 64

3, "SHARAH AKAIDE NAFSI' page # 6

4, 'AL FIRKATU NAZEAAH' page # 786

Thanks.

[a_27826]

but there are many other peoples my colligue who are still thinking that Allah tells that earth is flat and they says Quran is outdated.

Just to get things straight.

if you believe Quran says/said that earth is/was flat.

Do you think Quran is

1. "outdated" ? i.e. the earth was once flat and now it is not?

OR

2. "false" because earth is not flat nor it was flat?

[agakhani]

[quote]Do you think Quran is

1. "outdated" ? i.e. the earth was once flat and now it is not?


Brother a_27826,

It was just a sample, more outdated verses still has to come in this thread meanwhile read this:-
Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Ayas Surat An Nisa 4-3

Let see what translators of quran says:-

1, Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

2, Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

3, My favorite translator :-
Pickthall: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

[a_27826]

Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!.

Thanx for the reply.

so, during those times, you think it was OK for husband to beat his wife, if she rebels?

[shiraz.virani]

It was just a sample, more outdated verses still has to come in this thread meanwhile read this:-
Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!

Agakhani bhai, the surah and aayat that you copy/pasted ....does it say that a man should hit his wife 1st ???

Allah[swt] orders men to warn their women 1st, and if they still don't listen to you then refuse to share their beds and finally if everything fails then beat them [LIGHTLY]

the 3rd option is not compulsion on muslims....it's not the 7 pillars of islam agakhani bhai and I don't expect these kind of silly questions from you.

What you are trying to do here agakhani bhai is that you're trying to be the devils advocate. Most of your questions are/or have been asked by Christians in the past and guess what its even mentioned in their own bible.

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Corinthians 11:3

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Corinthians 11:6-7

If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man."

Having said this I wanna make this very clear that these are not my views nor do I beat my wife [no matter whether Im in the USA or INDIA]

[tret]

I can tell you loudly that I do not agree with your ideologies even one bit. and I hope that may maula give you guidance.

I know that for long time Tret that you do not agree with me, you are keep telling me this trash more than a year, if you do not agree with my post simply do not read it, but this thread is is Quran complete or not? and whatever I am posting here is about that subject.

Your belief and way of thinking makes me think that you are not considering yourself a muslim.

Don't worry about my thinking or belief, whatever my belief is every one in this forum knows for more then 5 years so, you do not have to worry about that but since you have already asked me this three time in your recent posts let me make it clear one more time here that I am 100% Muslim first and then after I am an Ismaili . By the way you can not judge any one's faith just reading his/her posts

So, I do not want to hear this BS again and again from you ok, if you don't like my post then stay away it.

mindblowing! you never failed to amaze me. Just reading your posts, everyone can stamp what's your belief, don't you worry!

You clearly seems influenced. So, now you are correcting Allah's mistakes. Bravo!!! way to go. Keep going on. I am curious to see what's coming up next!!!!

[tret]

Do you think Quran is

1. "outdated" ? i.e. the earth was once flat and now it is not?


Brother a_27826,

It was just a sample, more outdated verses still has to come in this thread meanwhile read this:-
Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Ayas Surat An Nisa 4-3

Let see what translators of quran says:-

1, Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

2, Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

3, My favorite translator :-
Pickthall: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

You know what I think? I think you are still holding on to your hindu thoughts. You are still a hindu and never become a muslim, let alone ismailism. You are way way way far from being an ismaili. I think by now everyone know who's full of it.

[a_27826]

It was just a sample, more outdated verses still has to come in this thread meanwhile read this:-
Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!

Agakhani bhai, the surah and aayat that you copy/pasted ....does it say that a man should hit his wife 1st ???

Allah[swt] orders men to warn their women 1st, and if they still don't listen to you then refuse to share their beds and finally if everything fails then beat them [LIGHTLY]

the 3rd option is not compulsion on muslims

waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna

And those you fear may be rebellious, admonish and banish them to their couches and beat them


i don't see stages "first", "then" and "finally", instead I find "and" and "and"

[a_27826]

Quran orders a man to beat his wife is she doesn't obey to him!!!! don't you think is this possible in this modern time and specially in USA? IF YOU THINK YES IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THEN OFF COURSE QURAN IS OUTDATED!.

Thanx for the reply.

so, during those times, you think it was OK for husband to beat his wife, if she rebels?

So, Agakhani,

Do you think that during Prophet's era, it was OK for husbands to beat their wives, if they become rebellious but now its not OK?