Is Quran compilation complete?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:20 pm

Brother a_27826 said :

Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.

Shiraz, do really believe these ahadith ?

Lets take example of Abu Abu Hurairah, who spent only only 3 years with the Prophet and he narrated 5,374 ahadiths.

Aisha = 2,210 ahadiths,
Umar al-Khattab = 537 ahadiths,
Ali = 536 ahadiths and
Abu Bakr = 142 ahadiths

Abu Hurairah has narrated more from the Prophet than the other four just mentioned combined and only in the space of three years.

Does that make sense to you ?

If i were you, i would be very sceptical of ahadith.....

however some of them may well be accurate

If that's the case brother then how are we so sure that the holy book that we have is infact the word of god ??...Because logically speaking its the very same writers along with few others who wrote about surahs and aayats...So how is it that when a person writes something anti quran you blame that person to be a not reliable source and the very same writer writes a hadith based on current quran and we all believe and follow it ??....Does that even make sense to you ???

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:36 pm

S.V.

Just for learning purposes, it would be nice if you put your POV (in few sentences) as to why this verse of stoning from God (if really this written verse ever existed) was not in the Mushaf ?

This is no place to learn about Islam. I have been given clear message. I get it.
I would take my question to good Shia or Sunni site.
Here one man has given verdict. This thread should have only 2 posts.
One from original poster
Second posting of verdict. That would be end of it.
You should know. You have been chastised few days back, you meekly surrendered and your posts were deleted.

Inter net has many good posts and blogs. Try and you will find it.

BTW your most trusted person recited so called Uthmanic Mushaf after it was distributed and during his leadership for 4 and half years. He did not express doubts about Quran!. It is acknowledged fact that this person was knower of order of revelation.But it was Prophet who placed revaluations as we read them.
Question Quran and question his integrity.
Salaam

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:07 pm

sister zznoor said :

This is no place to learn about Islam. I have been given clear message. I get it.
I would take my question to good Shia or Sunni site.
Here one man has given verdict. This thread should have only 2 posts.
One from original poster
Second posting of verdict. That would be end of it.
You should know. You have been chastised few days back, you meekly surrendered and your posts were deleted.

I won't use the term surrendered but if at all you wanna use that term them so be it !!!

I surrendered because when I read what our 48th imam said in his memoir regarding his 1st marriage was completely different that what was posted on that FB page...and then when I did some research it turned out that the source was some anti/ex ismaili guy.

So I accepted and requested admin bhai to delete the post because I felt I wrote something that was not right !!!....What's so wrong in accepting your mistakes ???

Inter net has many good posts and blogs. Try and you will find it.

But sister most of the posts are that of anti ismailis or ex ismailis...If somebody leaves Islam and joins Christianity would he have anything nice to say about Islam ???

BTW your most trusted person recited so called Uthmanic Mushaf after it was distributed and during his leadership for 4 and half years. He did not express doubts about Quran!. It is acknowledged fact that this person was knower of order of revelation.But it was Prophet who placed revaluations as we read them.
Question Quran and question his integrity.
Salaam

The very same trusted person compiled the quran word by word and gave it to the people who refused to accept what he was giving...what more could he do ???

The very same trusted person had to fight a battle with the wife of rasool[saw] who refused to accept his khilafat...battle of camel remember ??.. Had he wanted the very same trusted person could have made them believe in his quran with a sword hanging on people's neck...Do you think they would have then actually believed every single word this so called trusted person would give them ?? No !!!

Because not only people during that time hated him for given imamat [umar being the 1st to take baiyyat]...but also there were people who had special bond with rasool[saw] who revolted against his khilafat fearing that this trusted guy might spill out the precious gems [missing surah's or what not] and try to reform the religion.

Too bad for them, they weren't ready to accept his imamat 1400 years old and same is the situation until this day.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:11 pm

zznoor wrote:S.V.
Just for learning purposes, it would be nice if you put your POV (in few sentences) as to why this verse of stoning from God (if really this written verse ever existed) was not in the Mushaf ?
This is no place to learn about Islam. I have been given clear message. I get it.
I would take my question to good Shia or Sunni site.
Here one man has given verdict. This thread should have only 2 posts.
One from original poster
Second posting of verdict. That would be end of it.
You should know. You have been chastised few days back, you meekly surrendered and your posts were deleted.

Inter net has many good posts and blogs. Try and you will find it.

BTW your most trusted person recited so called Uthmanic Mushaf after it was distributed and during his leadership for 4 and half years. He did not express doubts about Quran!. It is acknowledged fact that this person was knower of order of revelation.But it was Prophet who placed revaluations as we read them.
Question Quran and question his integrity.
Salaam

ZZnoor -

Ofcourse this is not a site to learn about Islam - you never wanted to learn about Islam.

Your M.O (Modus Operandi) from day 1 has always been the same; to prove the Imam and the Ismailies wrong; to create doubt and to shatter people's faith.

Your assumptions were also wrong that we as Ismailies didn't have any idea or notion of the History of the Faith.

When you go to learn something - you go with an open mind, ready to accept that your notion and your view maybe wrong; yet - you have not even bothered to follow up on any of the research produced from ACADEMIC SOURCES.

Just as you base your arguement on the Muslim Evangelists - the Sunni Hardcore Element; or for lack of a better word - the STP - sunni Tea party and don't want to accept that we may be right; similarly you will get the same response.

You talk about Uthman and Umar and Abu Bakr and their acts and how they compiled and led the quran to a Shia audience?

You are lucky that the ismailies (most of us) are very restrained in general - if you study your history you will find that it is these same people that are the enemies of Ahl-e-Bayt - that which the Shia's love and hold above all else; that these are the people responsible for the death of the daughter of the Prophet; the wife of Hazrat Ali; Bibi Fatima.

Ah i am waiting for you to come back and proclaim heresy on me - maybe you should go to a 12er forum and ask about the death of bibi Fatima and Hazrat Mohsin; and how Umar and Uthman usurped the Orchard she inherited from the Prophet.
The point I am trying to make - Uthman/Umar didn't bother following the WILL OF THE PROPHET - the MAN THEY CLAIMED TO FOLLOW AND LOVE.
YOU EXPECT THEM TO HAVE DONE JUSTICE TO THE COMPILATION?

Also in regards to your comment about 1 post and verdict.

WE GAVE YOU A VERDICT - AS PER SHIA AND ISMAILI BELIEF - THE QURAN IS INCOMPLETE. THERE WERE VERSES OMITTED UPON COMPILATION BY UTHMAN - SOME INTENTIONALLY - SOME WERE LOST.

THERE IS HISTORICAL PROOF OF THAT ACCEPTED BY BOTH SUNNI AND SHIA ACADEMIC SCHOLARS - NOT THE ULEMA OR THE MAULVI ON THE CORNER MOSQUE OR THE JIHADIST OR THE FORUMS YOU FREQUENT.

Go and ask an academic who doesn't have a bias one way or another and you'll get your answer; don't look at evangelists for answers; they will always be biased.

Maybe you've already been brainwashed.

You claim about wanting to learn...really?
Are you here to learn? Doesn't seem like it ....seems like you want to establish supremacy over us and impose upon us your interpretation of your faith - like i said - insecurity galore.
Do you see us trying to convert people?
All we're saying is live and let live...

You asked for your verdict and now you have your verdict; but in 30 odd pages you haven't accepted it - like you won't accept the verse from the Quran

To you yours, to me mine.

So - I guess I'll respond to your crap again soon.

Shams

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:51 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:Brother a_27826 said :

Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.

Shiraz, do really believe these ahadith ?

Lets take example of Abu Abu Hurairah, who spent only only 3 years with the Prophet and he narrated 5,374 ahadiths.

Aisha = 2,210 ahadiths,
Umar al-Khattab = 537 ahadiths,
Ali = 536 ahadiths and
Abu Bakr = 142 ahadiths

Abu Hurairah has narrated more from the Prophet than the other four just mentioned combined and only in the space of three years.

Does that make sense to you ?

If i were you, i would be very sceptical of ahadith.....

however some of them may well be accurate
If that's the case brother then how are we so sure that the holy book that we have is infact the word of god ??...Because logically speaking its the very same writers along with few others who wrote about surahs and aayats...So how is it that when a person writes something anti quran you blame that person to be a not reliable source and the very same writer writes a hadith based on current quran and we all believe and follow it ??....Does that even make sense to you ???

I have already apologized for my redundant post.....

But ask yourself " Is there any scripture of an established religion written or dictated by the recipient of the revelation?"

If yes, then its ok.....if no, then why not?

you ask Christians about Gospel, tell will recite you Gospel according to Mark, Matthew etc but not according to Jesus....why is that?

I had asked zznoor about his POV as to why the verses in the book we have, are not in the order as revealed but he didn't answer. You know why ?

Let me tell you why: sunis believe the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely inspired to compile the verses of Quran just like writers of the Gospels.

But Uthman was smart enough to destroy all the variants in the possessions with the umma.....

Even the source (Hafsa Codex) of the book we have, has been destroyed.

Did the Prophet tell us to compile the revelations after his death?

The issue of compiling revelations was never an issue during the lifetime of the Prophet because he was the Quran e Natiq of the Time.

Quran (like Gospel and Tohra) is perpetual and so is the Imamate.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:54 pm

a_27826 wrote:
shiraz.virani wrote:Brother a_27826 said :

Yes that's quite possible....when the verse was revealed, was she was the only one who heard the revelation? even that is possible because since they were married and they might be alone in their house when the verse was revealed.

Shiraz, do really believe these ahadith ?

Lets take example of Abu Abu Hurairah, who spent only only 3 years with the Prophet and he narrated 5,374 ahadiths.

Aisha = 2,210 ahadiths,
Umar al-Khattab = 537 ahadiths,
Ali = 536 ahadiths and
Abu Bakr = 142 ahadiths

Abu Hurairah has narrated more from the Prophet than the other four just mentioned combined and only in the space of three years.

Does that make sense to you ?

If i were you, i would be very sceptical of ahadith.....

however some of them may well be accurate
If that's the case brother then how are we so sure that the holy book that we have is infact the word of god ??...Because logically speaking its the very same writers along with few others who wrote about surahs and aayats...So how is it that when a person writes something anti quran you blame that person to be a not reliable source and the very same writer writes a hadith based on current quran and we all believe and follow it ??....Does that even make sense to you ???
I have already apologized for my redundant post.....

But ask yourself " Is there any scripture of an established religion written or dictated by the recipient of the revelation?"

If yes, then its ok.....if no, then why not?

you ask Christians about Gospel, tell will recite you Gospel according to Mark, Matthew etc but not according to Jesus....why is that?

I had asked zznoor about his POV as to why the verses in the book we have, are not in the order as revealed but he didn't answer. You know why ?

Let me tell you why: sunis believe the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely inspired to compile the verses of Quran just like writers of the Gospels.

But Uthman was smart enough to destroy all the variants in the possessions with the umma.....

Even the source (Hafsa Codex) of the book we have, has been destroyed.

Did the Prophet tell us to compile the revelations after his death?

The issue of compiling revelations was never an issue during the lifetime of the Prophet because he was the Quran e Natiq of the Time.

Quran (like Gospel and Tohra) is perpetual and so is the Imamate.

Brother
AS

Please read Ahadith and Quran posting
You will at least learn other POV

Salam

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:58 pm

Let me tell you why: sunis believe the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely inspired to compile the verses of Quran just like writers of the Gospels.

Astaghfirullah

Who told you that?
Only Prophet SAW was divinely inspired

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:38 pm

zznoor wrote:
Let me tell you why: sunis believe the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely inspired to compile the verses of Quran just like writers of the Gospels.
Astaghfirullah

Who told you that?
Only Prophet SAW was divinely inspired

Lets say sunis believe God inspired Rashidun Caliphs (by opening their hearts) to collect and compile the verses of Quran.

Otherwise why would Abu Bakr do something the Prophet did not do ?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:58 am

a_27826 wrote:
zznoor wrote:
Let me tell you why: sunis believe the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely inspired to compile the verses of Quran just like writers of the Gospels.
Astaghfirullah

Who told you that?
Only Prophet SAW was divinely inspired
Lets say sunis believe God inspired Rashidun Caliphs (by opening their hearts) to collect and compile the verses of Quran.

Otherwise why would Abu Bakr do something the Prophet did not do ?

Mainstream Muslim believe that Quran in their hand is as revealed and as in order dictated by prophet SAW. To doubt Quran would be unthinkable for believing Muslim, just like believing Khoja Ismaili would not question Farman or Ginan.

Read
Quran Preservation & Compilation -1 (Prophet’s lifetime)
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2010/ ... etime.html

Quran Preservation & Compilation -2 (Circumstances during Abu Bakr's time)

letmeturnthetables.com[external links deleted]

Salaam

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:57 am

I would take my question to good Shia or Sunni site.

I, can suggest you some good Shia and Sunni sites if you leave this website!! would you like it!!!

This is no place to learn about Islam. I have been given clear message. I get it.

Off course not specially one sided thinker like you!!!!
but ask this question to your self, are you really coming in this forum to learn Islam or spread Anti-Ismaili propaganda? The answer is very simple that your are not coming in this forum to learn Islam but you are coming to prove to your self that your conversion from Ismailism to Sunnism is right!! it may be right for you but not for others, so, basically your time is over in this forum because so far you have tried your best to prove us wrong with your little knowledge! a one sided narrow knowledge! but you have been defeated badly every time.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:14 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
How many civilzation did Allah destroyed or ended .I just need the total of it.I do not need the ayat nos.
Very good question but its very hard to tell you how many civilizations did allah[swt] destroyed in the past because he himself said in surah ibrahim:

14:9

Has not the story reached you, (O people!), of those who (went) before you? Of the people of Nuh, and 'Ad and Thamud? And of those who (came) after them? None knows them but Allah. To them came messengers with clear (signs); but they put their hands up to their mouths, and said: "We deny (the mission) on which you have been sent, and we are really in suspicious (disquieting) doubt as to that to which you invite us."

So logically speaking we can name only few civilizations...May be you can ask people who can freeze people just by looking into their eyes ???

Only allah[swt] know's best !!!

thats right only God knows best.

019:098 And how many a generation We destroyed before them! Do you perceive so much as one of them, or hear of them a whisper?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:21 am

To Quran scholars:
How many civilzation did Allah destroyed or ended .I just need the total of it.I do not need the ayat nos.

Sorry to say that so far, none Quranic scholar has come forward to answer your above question except brother Shiraz, so I think I, as a non Quranic Scholar but Ginanic lover must have to put some comments on your above question. However, your above question is not clear; as your most of posts, I have to read it 2-3 times to find out what exactly you want to tell!! I can not understand your Shakespearean !!! language.

Any way, are you asking:-

1, How many civilizations were destroyed so far?

or,

2, How many civilizations destroyed by Allah as per Quran?

Answer:- 1,Tough question no body can tell you exact figures, I agree with Shiraz that it is very hard to tell and it is true for most of scholars, modern archeologist and scientist but yes, we have some information about destroyed nations in our ginans! Are you thinking I am crazy? off course not, let me repeat it here, we have some information in our ginans, so stop looking any where else just read ginans, would you like to know which ginan is that? sorry, bro you have to e-mail me for that and I know you won't.!!! anybody else who want to know about that ginan, please e-mail me, "Mai Apne Sone Ki Jall Pani Me Nahi Fenkna Chahta"

Answer:- 2, In holy Quran total 9 ( Nine) different civilizations has been mentioned by Allah, which were destroyed by him and the names of those civilization were as follows:-

1, Hazat Nooh's tribe
2, "Aad" civilization.
3, Samud civilization
4, Hazarat Loot's(Lut) civilization
5, Madayan civilization
6, Eyka civilization
7, Rassa civilization
8, Saba civilization
9, Asahabe Ukhdud or Tubba tribe civilization.

Besides above civilizations following civilization also destroyed as per modern Archaeologist, it may possible that the name given in Quran might be different but same civilization with different names.!!

1, Mayan civilization, in Mexico
2, 'Moen Jo Daro' civilization in Sind, Pakistan ( I visited once)
3, Harrappa civilization
4, Lothal in Gujarat India
5, Dholavira in Gujarat India.
6, Mesopotamian civilization
7, ANCIENT MU OR LEMURIA
8, ANCIENT ATLANTIS
9, RAMA EMPIRE OF INDIA
10, OSIRIAN CIVILIZATION OF THE MEDITERRANEAN
11, UIGER CIVILIZATION OF THE GOBI DESERT
12, TIAHUANACO
13, ANCIENT CHINA
14, ANCIENT ETHIOPIA & ISRAEL
15, THE AROI SUN KINGDOM OF THE PACIFIC

To Quranic Scholars:-

Do you want to know more detail? then go and search our ginans that is why, I wrote many time before that you can not find all the answer in Quran but you can find most answer in our Ginans!!!!! Don't you think this is a another solid reason to believe that Quran is out dated and incomplete brothers and sister?.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:24 am

agakhani wrote:
I would take my question to good Shia or Sunni site.
I, can suggest you some good Shia and Sunni sites if you leave this website!! would you like it!!!

This is no place to learn about Islam. I have been given clear message. I get it.
Off course not specially one sided thinker like you!!!!
but ask this question to your self, are you really coming in this forum to learn Islam or spread Anti-Ismaili propaganda? The answer is very simple that your are not coming in this forum to learn Islam but you are coming to prove to your self that your conversion from Ismailism to Sunnism is right!! it may be right for you but not for others, so, basically your time is over in this forum because so far you have tried your best to prove us wrong with your little knowledge! a one sided narrow knowledge! but you have been defeated badly every time.

Did I try to convert you or anybody to mainstream Islam?
Thread is "is Quran complete?"
Many posts, hadiths and Farmans saying it is tempered with.
I am just trying to say it is not.
If Admin thinks I am out of bound, please delete the post.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:54 pm

zznoor wrote:Thread is "is Quran complete?"
Many posts, hadiths and Farmans saying it is tempered with.
I am just trying to say it is not.
If Admin thinks I am out of bound, please delete the post.

Ismailis believe in the Last Prophet and past Prophets of God as well......

The problem is not the Holy Quran but the collection and compilation of the verses by the fallible humans after the demise of the Prophet......

056:077-80 it is surely a noble Quran in a hidden Book. None but the purified shall touch, a revelation sent down from the Lord of all Being.

In the LBC interview

"LBC: Yes, but is there a place in the Islamic World for the other religions?

Aga Khan: Oh, for sure! Islam is a faith that recognises the preceding monotheistic interpretations, Judaism and Christianity, called the "People of the Book". It is One Book. So for me there is no doubt whatsoever. "

Post by **Admin** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:28 pm

agakhani wrote:basically your time is over in this forum

There is no need to stop any healthy debate. Not everyone comes with the same intellectual background. people rely on what they hear and read. Different sources are consulted by different people and they surely influence their belief and understanding. Not the least influence from friends, family, teachers, websites, media...

I request only that you all keep in mind that this is not a place for personal disputes because what is written here will be read by others many decades and Centuries from now. A variety of ideas, discussion, references and sources on a particular topic is a good asset for future generations.

Therefore please write your thoughts in this Forum keeping that in mind.

I see for example a_27826 writing a reference on what Hazar Imam said in the LBC interview on the concept of ONE BOOK unifying all the people od the Book, including the Jews and Christian and the Sunnis and the Shias.

That is a concept that both zznoor and agakhani would share. So there is room for understanding on many matters and we should recognise that there are more common concepts between various writers of this forum then disputed subjects.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:51 pm

Admin wrote:
agakhani wrote:basically your time is over in this forum
There is no need to stop any healthy debate. Not everyone comes with the same intellectual background. people rely on what they hear and read. Different sources are consulted by different people and they surely influence their belief and understanding. Not the least influence from friends, family, teachers, websites, media...

I request only that you all keep in mind that this is not a place for personal disputes because what is written here will be read by others many decades and Centuries from now. A variety of ideas, discussion, references and sources on a particular topic is a good asset for future generations.

Therefore please write your thoughts in this Forum keeping that in mind.

I see for example a_27826 writing a reference on what Hazar Imam said in the LBC interview on the concept of ONE BOOK unifying all the people od the Book, including the Jews and Christian and the Sunnis and the Shias.

That is a concept that both zznoor and agakhani would share. So there is room for understanding on many matters and we should recognise that there are more common concepts between various writers of this forum then disputed subjects.

005:048 To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; to God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that where you were at variance.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:14 pm

I am sorry, I wrote it in jest.

Ismaili brothers should be careful what they write.
Post like this

Do you want to know more detail? then go and search our ginans that is why, I wrote many time before that you can not find all the answer in Quran but you can find most answer in our Ginans!!!!! Don't you think this is a another solid reason to believe that Quran is out dated and incomplete brothers and sister?.

Will live forever. Does anybody think it will further cause of Ismailism. Would this please MHI?
Think brother.
Salaam

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:56 am

I am sorry, I wrote it in jest.

Ismaili brothers should be careful what they write.
Post like this
Quote:
Do you want to know more detail? then go and search our ginans that is why, I wrote many time before that you can not find all the answer in Quran but you can find most answer in our Ginans!!!!! Don't you think this is a another solid reason to believe that Quran is out dated and incomplete brothers and sister?.

Will live forever. Does anybody think it will further cause of Ismailism. Would this please MHI?
Think brother.
Salaam

Whatever, I wrote above is absolutely true sister, i.e. you can receive more information on the subject of 'DESTROYED NATIONS" and many others in our Ginans, where Quran has no or very little information.
Does anybody in this form see any thing wrong in above sentences? nobody can say that, The only think I just wrote is facts and nothing else but facts, there is no need to introduce ginan to our Imam because he listen every day when he enter in his Aglimont office nor there is need to please him.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:07 am

agakhani wrote:
I am sorry, I wrote it in jest.

Ismaili brothers should be careful what they write.
Post like this
Quote:
Do you want to know more detail? then go and search our ginans that is why, I wrote many time before that you can not find all the answer in Quran but you can find most answer in our Ginans!!!!! Don't you think this is a another solid reason to believe that Quran is out dated and incomplete brothers and sister?.

Will live forever. Does anybody think it will further cause of Ismailism. Would this please MHI?
Think brother.
Salaam
Whatever, I wrote above is absolutely true sister, i.e. you can receive more information on the subject of 'DESTROYED NATIONS" and many others in our Ginans, where Quran has no or very little information.
Does anybody in this form see any thing wrong in above sentences? nobody can say that, The only think I just wrote is facts and nothing else but facts, there is no need to introduce ginan to our Imam because he listen every day when he enter in his Aglimont office nor there is need to please him.

My question is to everyone who claims 'Qura'an is imcomplete'. Is there any Farman on this? If yes, can you please let us know?

agakhani - Why do you think Qura'an is out-dated? Why would Allah let that happen? Why would he not protect The Book which guide his followers through out all the ages?

Didn't our beloved profit PBUH mention that He would leave 2 things until the day of judgement? What was He referring to? (Qura'an and Imam).

So, if you think Qura'an is outdated and incomplete, then I am sorry to tell you that it's purely your idea and belief. Most other folks here claims that Qura'an is incomplete and yet they quote and refer Ayats from the same Qura'an.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:32 am

[/quote]

Code: Select all

My question is to everyone who claims 'Qura'an is imcomplete'. Is there any Farman on this? If yes, can you please let us know?

Sir, Have you read all posts in this thread? there are many posts in this thread which already proved that Quran is incomplete, take little time just go back and read all the post first
BTW:- why are you asking farmans of MHI every time, for every subjects?, since you already asked this question again then let me tell you this yes, there are many farmans of SMS, Aga Hasan Ali Shah and Aga Ali Shah about changed Quran, any doubt!!!!!!?????, If this is not enough for you then go ahead and read 'NAHJUL BALAGAH, a very good book of H. Ali (s.a.)'s Khutabs and sermons and this is not enough then I can suggest you some Sunny and Shia Books in which you can find that Quran is changed, omitted, altered or it is not in it's original form, Fair enough??? but I can not put any farmans of any Imams in this forum, this is my person policy.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:39 am

agakhani wrote:

Code: Select all

My question is to everyone who claims 'Qura'an is imcomplete'. Is there any Farman on this? If yes, can you please let us know?

Sir, Have you read all posts in this thread? there are many posts in this thread which already proved that Quran is incomplete, take little time just go back and read all the post first
BTW:- why are you asking farmans of MHI every time, for every subjects?, since you already asked this question again then let me tell you this yes, there are many farmans of SMS, Aga Hasan Ali Shah and Aga Ali Shah about changed Quran, any doubt!!!!!!?????, If this is not enough for you then go ahead and read 'NAHJUL BALAGAH, a very good book of H. Ali (s.a.)'s Khutabs and sermons and this is not enough then I can suggest you some Sunny and Shia Books in which you can find that Quran is changed, omitted, altered or it is not in it's original form, Fair enough??? but I can not put any farmans of any Imams in this forum, this is my person policy.[/quote]
No sir, i did not read all 30+ pages of this thread, but when time permits i would.

Can you at least give me the data/time/place of the Fermans, so I can seek it from my local JK?

As it's proved that Qura'an is not in it's order in which it was revealed and some Ayah's have been committed, intentionally or otherwise. So, what does that tell us? Does it mean that Qura'an is completely useless and we shouldn't refer to it at all? What I don't agree with you agakhani, is that you used term 'outdated'. Let me ask you this question then, and be honest. Let's say if Qura'an was in it's original form and nothing was committed, would you still think it was outdated?

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:44 am

agakhani wrote: BTW:- why are you asking farmans of MHI every time, for every subjects?

Why not? Do you expect everyone to believe what you have to say? BTW, I don't agree with most of your thoughts and believes.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:51 am

So, if you think Qura'an is outdated and incomplete, then I am sorry to tell you that it's purely your idea and belief. Most other folks here claims that Qura'an is incomplete and yet they quote and refer Ayats from the same Qura'an.

Phir Vohi Baat, it will repeat again and again and this thread will be become longer and longer and I don't think that we can find solution of this question till the day of Qayamat and who do you think are we readers can solve this question whether Quran is complete or not? when many Ulemas, many Muffasirs, many scholars and many translators could not find a satisfactory answer since last 1400 years then do you think we can find the right answer?

Whatever I wrote is my personal opinions after reading Farmans, Sermons of H. Ali, reading Sunny and Shia Books and after close observation of Modern days arising questions, if you think I am wrong then I am wrong nobody has to believes what others saying.

One more think, Let me make clear it here brother I do not have any problem with Quran, I personally read it on and off but what I trying to tell in this thread is whatever Quran we have is changed and out dated Quran and to prove my belief I, already quoted many examples for that, please go back read all the posts specially mine, Admin and ShamB before you raise any further question and make this thread even more boring asking same question again and again and again

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:00 pm

agakhani wrote:
So, if you think Qura'an is outdated and incomplete, then I am sorry to tell you that it's purely your idea and belief. Most other folks here claims that Qura'an is incomplete and yet they quote and refer Ayats from the same Qura'an.
Phir Vohi Baat, it will repeat again and again and this thread will be become longer and longer and I don't think that we can find solution of this question till the day of Qayamat and who do you think are we readers can solve this question whether Quran is complete or not? when many Ulemas, many Muffasirs, many scholars and many translators could not find a satisfactory answer since last 1400 years then do you think we can find the right answer?

Whatever I wrote is my personal opinions after reading Farmans, Sermons of H. Ali, reading Sunny and Shia Books and after close observation of Modern days arising questions, if you think I am wrong then I am wrong nobody has to believes what others saying.

One more think, Let me make clear it here brother I do not have any problem with Quran, I personally read it on and off but what I trying to tell in this thread is whatever Quran we have is changed and out dated Quran and to prove my belief I, already quoted many examples for that, please go back read all the posts specially mine, Admin and ShamB before you raise any further question and make this thread even more boring asking same question again and again and again

Well, you didn't answer my question. Do you want me to repeat it again? Let me try again.

Would you believe in The Qura'an, had it not been tampered with?

Second question: You again used the term outdated. So, let me as you another question: Would you describe in your own words, what's 'outdated' for you? What do you mean 'outdated'?

To me, when something is outdated, we simply update it. So, do you think Qura'an needs an update? Clarify please?

You know, agakhani bhai, I am amazed reading your posts. You know why, you pretend to know nothing (which is really true), but you imply to know it all. You know what I mean. In other words, you imply to know it all, by pretending not to know anything. In reality it's just that you are fooling yourself.

I am not off topic of this thread. I am here to learn as an Ismaili, unlike another member. If you provide me proof and explanation -- a logical explanation -- and convince me, I will be glad to take it. But, if you keep saying 'Qura'an is outdated', then surely no one (muslims or ismailies) won't agree with you.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:01 pm

tret wrote:Would you believe in The Qura'an, had it not been tampered with? .

Or Would you still think Qura'an is outdated, had it not been tampered with?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Why not? Do you expect everyone to believe what you have to say? BTW, I don't agree with most of your thoughts and believes.

I think I already answered your above question but let me repeat it here you don't have to believes my thoughts, opinions and comments same way I do not agree with your thoughts and many other reader's opinions in this forum I never expected that everyone have to believe whatever I say is always right, I made many mistakes before therefore I consider my self with kindergarten kids. so, let me believe what I believe about quran and I
I believe is Quran what we have it has been changed many time, altered many times, it is not in it's original form, some ayas from Quran has been deleted, Quran is contradictory and Quran is outdated. period.[/quote]

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:25 pm

agakhani wrote:Why not? Do you expect everyone to believe what you have to say? BTW, I don't agree with most of your thoughts and believes.

I think I already answered your above question but let me repeat it here you don't have to believes my thoughts, opinions and comments same way I do not agree with your thoughts and many other reader's opinions in this forum I never expected that everyone have to believe whatever I say is always right, I made many mistakes before therefore I consider my self with kindergarten kids. so, let me believe what I believe about quran and I
I believe is Quran what we have it has been changed many time, altered many times, it is not in it's original form, some ayas from Quran has been deleted, Quran is contradictory and Quran is outdated. period.

[/quote]

I don't think you understood my question.

I asked: If Qura'an was not altered or tampered with, would you still think it was outdated?

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:28 pm

tret wrote:
agakhani wrote:Why not? Do you expect everyone to believe what you have to say? BTW, I don't agree with most of your thoughts and believes.

I think I already answered your above question but let me repeat it here you don't have to believes my thoughts, opinions and comments same way I do not agree with your thoughts and many other reader's opinions in this forum I never expected that everyone have to believe whatever I say is always right, I made many mistakes before therefore I consider my self with kindergarten kids. so, let me believe what I believe about quran and I
I believe is Quran what we have it has been changed many time, altered many times, it is not in it's original form, some ayas from Quran has been deleted, Quran is contradictory and Quran is outdated. period.

I don't think you understood my question.

I asked: If Qura'an was not altered or tampered with, would you still think it was outdated?

Allow me to put my two cents in the discussion

The main problem is that the compiled Quran was not authorized by the Prophet.

Therefore its quite possible Usmani Mashaf is not 100% replica of the words uttered by Muhammad.

For example in the last sentence of 003:007, it says

And none knows its interpretation, save only God and those firmly rooted in knowledge. Say 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Now compare with this one

And none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Take any book and mix up some sentences and you might end up getting a slightly different message than the author intended to convey.

For example, in 005:003, It starts with simple dietary laws and then with “Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion.”

Nothing outdated is supposed to be in the Quran.

For example Quran says “perform the prayer, and pay the alms” many times but is silent as to how perform and how much to pay.
This was left to the oral teachings/instructions of the prophet. And for Ismailis, after the Prophet, Imam of the Time.

Its important to note that both Quran and its teachings/instructions were coming from the mouth of the Prophet.

God knows the best

075:017-19 Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it. So, when We recite it, follow its recitation. Then Ours it is to explain it.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:38 pm

tret said :

I asked: If Qura'an was not altered or tampered with, would you still think it was outdated?

Tret, If quran is limited to few pages then why is that allah[swt] said in the very same quran :

31:27

And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink), with seven seas behind it to increase it, yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

18:109

Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

But anyways lets just come back to your question, if at all quran was not tampered or altered brother then not just agakhani bhai but I would go on to say today we wouldn't be having 70+ sects in islam.

We would all be living as 1 Ummah rather than hurting/degrading each other.

Why do you think the whole ummah was united during the 1st four caliphs ??? Was it due to quran or because people felt them to be close companions of rasool[saw] and hence chose them to lead the ummah ???

Nobody is saying quran is wrong....what we are saying is that the quran that we have is what is left over...Its not in its originality !!!

Hope I answered your question

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:45 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:tret said :

I asked: If Qura'an was not altered or tampered with, would you still think it was outdated?
Tret, If quran is limited to few pages then why is that allah[swt] said in the very same quran :

31:27

And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink), with seven seas behind it to increase it, yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

18:109

Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

But anyways lets just come back to your question, if at all quran was not tampered or altered brother then not just agakhani bhai but I would go on to say today we wouldn't be having 70+ sects in islam.

We would all be living as 1 Ummah rather than hurting/degrading each other.

Why do you think the whole ummah was united during the 1st four caliphs ??? Was it due to quran or because people felt them to be close companions of rasool[saw] and hence chose them to lead the ummah ???

Nobody is saying quran is wrong....what we are saying is that the quran that we have is what is left over...Its not in its originality !!!

Hope I answered your question

Shiraz, What you describe is all good. I don't have any arguments. My only question is to mr. agakhani (I don't know if you share his view too?), is when he uses term 'outdated'. Why would Qura'an be outdated? It may have been tampered with. But, I don't think anyone would agree that Qura'an is outdated. Would you agree with this?

Second, if Qura'an is outdated and useless, then why we, everyday recite our holly Du'a which all of them are taken from the same Qura'an.