Is Quran compilation complete?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
2782 earlier posted an Ayat related to Spirit.
Surah 17:85
They ask thee concerning The Spirit(of inspiration)
Say:The Spirit (cometh) By command of My Lord Of knowledge
it is only a Little that is communicated to you,(O men)"

and it continues with ayat no 88
"Say:'I fthe whole mankind and Jinns Were to Gather together
To produce the like of Qur'an they could not produce
The like therof,even if They backed up each other
With help and support.

If we observe the translation from Quran book of 2782 n my copy differs.
So does the real meaning of the word 'Spirit'.

Here the 'Spirit' word mean the Spiritual Intellect or Noorani Hidayat as we commonly understand.

It clearly says that knowledge of God come to human of only a little is understood by human beings.
Then in Ayat 88:

Allah(Ali+lah) proclaims that combined knowledge of the whole world cannot produce a similar Quran,even they back each other.

In simple term,It is best left to Imam of the Time to interpret the Quran.

I am just wondering everybody posting Ayat with authority on it at a drop of a hat to support it own point of view or undermine the opposition.

I said earlier even the translation of experts are questionable at first instance.
The absolute result of short sighted readers is reflected on HOW THEY ACTUALLY ARE TODAY.

In a recent Farman In Mumbai heard by me,MHI said that the Muslim Ummah is torn apart by extreme forces.( the word forces is in plural)

[shiraz.virani]

17:85

Sahih International: And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."

Pickthall: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

Yusuf Ali: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Shakir: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Muhammad Sarwar: They ask you about the Spirit. Say, "The Spirit comes by the command of my Lord. You have been given very little knowledge.

Mohsin Khan: And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit); Say: "The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little."

Arberry: They will question thee concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'

Baba nuseri, where do you see the term spiritual intellect in that verse ???

[agakhani]

Pickthall: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

Thank you very much to put the translation of ayas 17.85 of well known Quranic Tafsirkar including my favorite Pickthall.

There is a common believes in Islam that Allah is {' AL- BAARI' in Urud 'Ruho ko peda karne walaa', he is also Al-KHALIK in Urud 'Khlakat ko peda karne wala' }creators of our souls, only Allahtala can give birth or give death to our soul and I believes that many other religion also believes same. but currently I am reading a book name Many lives Many Master this book is best seller for all the time and it is written by well known author name Dr. Bryan Biess, in this book he has wrote true stories of his client's relatives who has passed away many years ago and his clients can see them in regression, he also write about reincarnation of human being, their near death experience e.t.c, it is very interesting books ! by the way after reading your above post few question arises in my mind and which are as follows:-

1,, Who give birth to new born child, Allah or Soul himself?

Explanation:- As per the your above post Allahtala controls the Ruh (spirit) and it is our Islamic belief that Only Allahtala can give birth to any one. While in this book author tell that "Ruh has power to choose their own parents? What is your opinion about this?

2, Is "Ruh" immortal or deathless?

3, In this book it is also described that human soul takes many birth/reincarnations in soul's eternal journey, again and again till his ruh dissolve in Aallah Noor!!
Many other religion peoples also believes that this is not our first birth but we had many birth before this birth and we will take another birth after the our death and our soul will continue to take birth till the soul receive eternal peace or receive the salvation!! Should we believe in reincarnation?

[nuseri]

The soul of the person is the Spiritual Intellect embedded in it.
( soul= noor =intellect).We all are spark of it.

The 'REALIZATION' come from Ibadat n qualitative 'understanding'of it comes from saying of Pir n Dai's.

What is to be understood is not always has be written,as Allah(Ali+Lah) has said only little in known to us.

In the same way the word ALI is not seen in the word Allah but hidden in it.

ALL THE TRANSLATOR SEEM TO HAVE DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING( COMMONALITY FACTOR IS 67%) N ALSO THEIR COMMAND OVER ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

I presume Mr Yusuf Ali has Shia perception in understanding n translation.More the copies of Quran,much more the confusion rather than conviction.

BETTER STICK TO THE FARMANS OF THE IMAMS.

A person would be better off sitting in Ibadat to KNOW the past history ( upto 5000 years/all major jugs) of your soul or approach some past life regression therapist ( few of past life cycles).

FOR U2: By the way, the a surrogate child is not a 'najayaz aulad'( words picked from Bollywood film). I have few questions on it.
to Whom should I ask? as truth is being evaded.

[agakhani]

By the way, the a surrogate child is not a 'najayaz aulad'( words picked from Bollywood film).

If it is not Najayaz Aulad then what will you give name to that child? where his/her parents are not married and give birth to child? is not zina as per Quran?

FYI:- The last Hindi movie I watch was in December 2012, upon Mr. Shiraz recommendation, I am not movie watcher, I prefer to read good books instead of wasting time watching garbage Bollywood movies.

[shiraz.virani]

Agakhani said :

If it is not Najayaz Aulad then what will you give name to that child? where his/her parents are not married and give birth to child? is not zina as per Quran?

The wife of aly khan and mother of MHI conceived their 1st child = MHI before getting married....Is it zina ???

Lets go back a little more....Sultan muhammad shah married his cousin for 1 night...Is it zina ???

I told you last time there is a provision in quran called MUTA MARRIAGE, please read about the marriage of playboy with MHI's mother, read about the birth of MHI...Read when did they got married, who took them to court and when did she conceived = MHI.

[shiraz.virani]

Baba Nuseri said :

The soul of the person is the Spiritual Intellect embedded in it.
( soul= noor =intellect).We all are spark of it.

Lemme ask you this....Is the soul and spirit the same ???

If yes, then how ???
If no, then why not ???

The reason why Im asking you this is because a_27826 gave you a clarity between the two but its like you're mixing apples and oranges here.

Lemme ask you this, did you even understood even a single aayat that a_27826 gave you regarding the spirit and the soul ???

a_27826 said :

Spirit = rooh in 002:087, 002:253, 004:171, 005:110, 015:029, 016:002, 16:102, 017:085, 017:085, and many more

Soul = nafs in 002:048, 002:072, 002:123, 002:233, 002:281, 003:025, 003:030, 003:145, and many many more

Read the above aayats and then please tell us what do you think about the soul and the spirit....are they the same ???

[agakhani]

And I already told you that Mutah Marriage was just for slave and divorced women whose husbands either divorced them or their husband left them or their husbands were killed in ghazwah/wars but absolutely not for those women who didn't got divorced or their husband had not left them.

It is true that during the time of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). Muta Marriage were allowed above stated unlucky women.

But sorry to say I read those Quranic ayas which is tell about Muta marriage but I couldn't find any satisfactory answer which match with your above claims and belief i.e. Mutah marriage is not a zina!!!?

In my opinion 'Mutah Marriage' is nothing else but just a prostitution a zina!!! because an agreement where there is exchange of money or gifts for sexual intercourse is called prostitution.

It is really a sad thing that after KMaherali in this forum you as a educated and Quranic scholar can not understand what I really try to tell!, now let me give you one harsh example, I hope Admin will not delete this post and you will understand this time; suppose Mr. Forgets wife is not able to give a child because of her husband problem but she wants child!, her own child, any how, any way and any cost, either this child comes from her husband Mr. Forget or from Mr. Remember, it is not a matter to her but here is one problems Mr. forget is very nice person to her except he is not physically fit to give her a child, therefore she wants to stay with her husband and do not want to give him divorce now think this..... she is making sex with Mr. Remember even though she knows that that it is against the 'Shariayat' and against 'Quran', what would you name this kind illegal sex? Is this "Muta Marriage"? if no then what would you give the name of this kind sex?
In my thinking to take some one sperm in her womb is same like you make sex with some one without marrying with them. NOW, IF MAKING SEX WITH SOME ONE WITHOUT MARRIAGE CALLED 'ZINA' IN QURAN THEN IN MY OPINION THIS KIND AGREEMENT ALSO CALL ZINA i.e. TO TAKE SOMEONE ELSE SPERM IN YOUR BODY WITHOUT MARRY WITH HIM/HER. PERIOD.

By the way, what Ismaili Imams are doing, that is a absolutely different story for us we are not follow what they are doing only thing we are and we should follow what he is saying do to us.

[agakhani]

Shiraz,
Will you please provide me references about you just mentioned about Ali Khan and SMS? some how I have not read or heard any where else.

[Admin]

I disagree.

If Marriage is a contract, duration is one of the item of the contract. If there can be a divorce, there can also be a time specific marriage. At least this steems from the fact that marriage is not a sacrement in Islam, it is a socila contract.

Now a time limited marriage contract may not look good but then, pre-nup agreements also do not look good but are valid anyway and so are many things in real life.

[Admin]

Lets go back a little more....Sultan muhammad shah married his cousin for 1 night...Is it zina ???

I told you last time there is a provision in quran called MUTA MARRIAGE, please read about the marriage of divine with MHI's mother, read about the birth of MHI...Read when did they got married, who took them to court and when did she conceived = MHI.

Muta is one of the recognised provision in Islam. But for the remaining of your misleading message, let me say this:

SMS has explained the whole episode in his Memoirs which you should read. As for Hazar Imam, Of course S.V. this is A.M. propaganda. You should stop repeating from his website and read more of the stuff that explains the difference of date between the Nikah date and the civil marriage date. I am sure you have an opinion as to which date takes precedence in the definition you have of Zina when both date are different. So what you are propagating here is pure BS..

You know the saying "One lie told, thousand times repeated"

[shiraz.virani]

agakhani bhai said :

It is really a sad thing that after KMaherali in this forum you as a educated and Quranic scholar can not understand what I really try to tell!, now let me give you one harsh example, I hope Admin will not delete this post and you will understand this time; suppose Mr. Forgets wife is not able to give a child because of her husband problem but she wants child!, her own child, any how, any way and any cost, either this child comes from her husband Mr. Forget or from Mr. Remember, it is not a matter to her but here is one problems Mr. forget is very nice person to her except he is not physically fit to give her a child, therefore she wants to stay with her husband and do not want to give him divorce now think this..... she is making sex with Mr. Remember even though she knows that that it is against the 'Shariayat' and against 'Quran', what would you name this kind illegal sex? Is this "Muta Marriage"? if no then what would you give the name of this kind sex?

Agakhani bhai, every single post of mine I have advocated for surrogacy through 2nd female...The reason for that is because a female can carry an egg of Mr.Forget and his wife in her womb.

Nowhere have I advocated for Mr. Remember because its a sin for a married woman to have sex with a man other than her hubby.

This is what happens when you don't read what I write....Im talking about surrogacy via artificial insemination i.e a woman getting into a contract to bear the child of the cpl[whose egg she has agreed to carry]...Those days for having sex to make babies are looong gone agakhani bhai and Im pretty sure you're aware of that as well !!!

This works well if an infertile couple contributes the egg and sperm, and then has it grown inside a third party surrogate mother. But it would not work well if the wife of the infertile couple wishes to carry the child using the sperm of a third party donor. Her husband would be considered only an adoptive father. The third party donor would be considered the real father from whom the child may claim inheritance.

[shiraz.virani]

Muta is one of the recognised provision in Islam. But for the remaining of your misleading message, let me say this:

SMS has explained the whole episode in his Memoirs which you should read. As for Hazar Imam, Of course S.V. this is A.M. propaganda. You should stop repeating from his website and read more of the stuff that explains the difference of date between the Nikah date and the civil marriage date. I am sure you have an opinion as to which date takes precedence in the definition you have of Zina when both date are different. So what you are propagating here is pure BS..

You know the saying "One lie told, thousand times repeated"

Well Im happy that atleast you agree with me on something...but anyways whatever I have said ...and my source is not some BS anti ismaili guy but instead a group of FB started and managed by ismailis ...here's the link

[deleted]

Regarding sir sultan muhammad shah, I think I went too far with that so I think Ill go ahead and delete that post if I could

[Admin]

S.V. I thought you were better informed. Sorry, My mistake.

And stop quoting people quoting A.M.

The facebook link you put is an exact reproduction of the page put up by A.M. and his replica in various Fora. If you think you are going to get credibility by saying this BS is managed by Ismailis, you are mistaken.

[a_27826]

By the way, what Ismaili Imams are doing, that is a absolutely different story for us we are not follow what they are doing only thing we are and we should follow what he is saying do to us.

Why do you say that ?

Is there anything Imam doesn't do but told his murids to do ? or

Is there anything Imam does do but told his murids not to do ?

From where did you get this doctrine of "Follow what Imam says and not what Imam does" ?

Questioner: Have you used your power to make any radical changes in the Ismaili religion?

Answer by the Imam: "You don't change the religion. But you might change certain traditions. For instance, My grandfather made it quite clear to the Ismaili Community that women were not to wear the veil, and they no longer do. I have not made any strong directives of this type. But I hope I am modern in My outlook, and I know that in many ways I am a different sort of person from My grandfather. This will necessarily subtly change the character of the Faith."

"THE SUNDAY TIMES" 1965.

[agakhani]

From where did you get this doctrine of "Follow what Imam says and not what Imam does" ?

If you were really an Ismaili then you would not have ask me this silly question!? because it is our fundamental century old principal and belief for all Ismailis around the world that ' follow what our Imam says in his farmans and do not do what he say not to do, We Ismailis consider him as our rahbar/guide, a Murshid, a Master, a spiritual leader and so on... .

By the way, this simple doctrine every Ismailis knows by birth, parents teaches their new born child when their kids able to understand little bit and want to know more about religion, so, basically neither this is a new doctrine nor it is made by me, by any one else or any missionaries.

This belief is as simple as this, if you are a true Ismailis then you must have to obey your Imam's farman To follow the farman of our current Imam is our fundamental principal and this principal is century old and if you not follow his farmans then you can not consider your self as a true followers of his! You can find many farmans of SMS on this belief and Ismaili faith.

[a_27826]

From where did you get this doctrine of "Follow what Imam says and not what Imam does" ?

If you were really an Ismaili then you would not have ask me this silly question!? because it is our fundamental century old principal and belief for all Ismailis around the world that ' follow what our Imam says in his farmans and do not do what he say not to do, We Ismailis consider him as our rahbar/guide, a Murshid, a Master, a spiritual leader and so on... .

By the way, this simple doctrine every Ismailis knows by birth, parents teaches their new born child when their kids able to understand little bit and want to know more about religion, so, basically neither this is a new doctrine nor it is made by me, by any one else or any missionaries.

This belief is as simple as this, if you are a true Ismailis then you must have to obey your Imam's farman To follow the farman of our current Imam is our fundamental principal and this principal is century old and if you not follow his farmans then you can not consider your self as a true followers of his! You can find many farmans of SMS on this belief and Ismaili faith.

i am sorry for not putting my question in a clear way.

let me try to rephrase the question:

From where do you get concept of "Not to do what the Imam does but only do what Imam says"

Is it a concept taught by

1. Pirs ?

2. Imams ?

3. Forefathers ?

NOTE: my question is not about "do what Imam says" but rather about "Not to do what the Imam does"

[agakhani]

Well then I will stick what I have written earlier that muta marriage is not acceptable unless it is approved by Rasulullah now a days prophet is not here so there is no question arise that m.m. is still good, if you read other scholars opinions then you will susurprise that some scholars accept m.m with some restrictions but majority scholars opposes it,btw if you read the history of Islam then you will easily find that Rasulullah used to give approval for muta marraiges in some situation, that specially circumstances I already wrote before but let me repeat it again i.e. I wrote that muta marriages was only for some unlucky womens either they were divorced,or their husband were killed in war or they were slave girls and their master had rapped them and they can not live their master.
This iz open forum nobody have to agree with nobody, if you think you are right and I am wrong it may be right , you may right and I may be seeing but please do not think that you can never be wrong
Aap apna mano auor muje apna manne do.

[nuseri]

to ADMIN.
WHY HAVE U DELETED MY POST????

[agakhani]

From where do you get concept of "Not to do what the Imam does but only do what Imam says"

Is it a concept taught by

1. Pirs ?

2. Imams ?

3. Forefathers ?

You are absolutely right Boss! yes it is quoted in Ginans, it is written in Kalame Imame Mubin by Sultan Mohammed Shah (s.a.) and we also hear it from our forefathers and missionaries on and off that Imam can do what he want to do but we should not follow him. Please read ginans and Kalame Imame mubin for further information.

FYI:- If you read "Maha Bharat" then you will also find this same concept in this great book ; Krisha advised Arjun and his other followers that they should not follow what he is doing but follow what he is telling to do !! and we Ismailis also believe that Krishna was an Imam during Maha Bharat war time.

[tret]

... and we Ismailis also believe that Krishna was an Imam during Maha Bharat war time.

Really? Where do you see that? Show us some reference from an ismailie source.

[a_27826]

... and we Ismailis also believe that Krishna was an Imam during Maha Bharat war time.

Really? Where do you see that? Show us some reference from an ismailie source.

It is in Memoirs of Aga Khan that,"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."


+ old dua names krishna as "ka' an", if i am not mistaken.


It has been said that the Divine Institution of Imamat has been passed down through countless generations:
1. Adam
2. Ram
3. Krishna
4. Honayd
4. Seth
5. Shem
6. Ishmael
7. Aaron
8. James
9. Ali
--- and still continues.

[tret]

... and we Ismailis also believe that Krishna was an Imam during Maha Bharat war time.

Really? Where do you see that? Show us some reference from an ismailie source.

It is in Memoirs of Aga Khan that,"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."


+ old dua names krishna as "ka' an", if i am not mistaken.


It has been said that the Divine Institution of Imamat has been passed down through countless generations:
1. Adam
2. Ram
3. Krishna
4. Honayd
4. Seth
5. Shem
6. Ishmael
7. Aaron
8. James
9. Ali
--- and still continues.

Where does it say that krishan was an Imam? i still don't see that.

[a_27826]

Where does it say that krishan was an Imam? i still don't see that.

you will have to read old dua.......its in the list of imams.....

......Krishna, Parikhshat, Janmejay, Shesanand, Satanand, Swas Than, Budsthan, Vinvachhraaj, Shri Budha, Seth......

[agakhani]

Really? Where do you see that? Show us some reference from an ismailie source.

If you choose Ismaili sources then we have plenty, number 1 source is ginans there are two ginans composed by two different pirs and both ginan/granth name is same 'DAS AVATAR' in is composed by pir Sadardin and the other one is composed by Syed Imam Shah.

The second source "Kalame Imam e Mubin in which SMS on and off gave us some detail about 10 incarnation of Lord Vishnu

The third source is "Memoirs of Agakhan" as brother a_27826 wrote above.

The fourth source is Al-Waezes, (specially Rai Abu Ali, Rajan e.t.c ) they delivered many waezes on Krishna and other incarnations.

The fifth source you can find an article on Ten Incarnation in this forum sorry I forget the name of the author.

[agakhani]

This post is just for Nuseri, he is looking 'BUDH AVATAR' ginan for a long time, this translation already had in Ismaili.net - ginan section.


http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22998

[agakhani]

Tret,
I, also found one more ginan on same subject 'DAS AVATAR' composed by pir Shams, so, there are three different ginans,please excuse me for my earlier mistake.

[agakhani]

Tret,

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

Please visit above link, this link has good information on Krishna and other Avatars, four yugas, Karans and evolution theory.


Correction:-

I, found one more ginan on same subject 'DAS AVATAR' composed by pir Shams in Sindhi, however this ginan is never published but it is in Ismaili.net Thanks Admin and all Ismaili.net staff please look in ginan section for this ginan so, basically there are three different ginans.

Please excuse me for my earlier mistake in which I wrote that there are two ginans on Das Avatar.

[tret]

Really? Where do you see that? Show us some reference from an ismailie source.

If you choose Ismaili sources then we have plenty, number 1 source is ginans there are two ginans composed by two different pirs and both ginan/granth name is same 'DAS AVATAR' in is composed by pir Sadardin and the other one is composed by Syed Imam Shah.

The second source "Kalame Imam e Mubin in which SMS on and off gave us some detail about 10 incarnation of Lord Vishnu

The third source is "Memoirs of Agakhan" as brother a_27826 wrote above.

The fourth source is Al-Waezes, (specially Rai Abu Ali, Rajan e.t.c ) they delivered many waezes on Krishna and other incarnations.

The fifth source you can find an article on Ten Incarnation in this forum sorry I forget the name of the author.

Anything prior to Maulana Sultan Mohammad Shah? Any references?

To sir a_27826, the old dua that I know of, is called "kalema-t-ul-haqq', which I don't see any mention of it.

Like I said, any authentic reference prior to Maulana Sultan Mohammad Shah, is really appreciated.

[Admin]

Imam Hakim said in a Sermon given from his balcony in Cairo to 10,000 Egyptians gathered there in Fatimid times: "I am the 10th Manifestation of God". [Gibon: "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire"]

He was called by some historian "a mad man" because of this declaration. There were no Hindus there, they were 10,000 Muslims, perhaps part of it Ismailis.

Some people did not understand anything to it Centuries ago and some still do not understand.

Then Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah declared [Mumbai, 31 Jan 1926) :
“Our religion is evidenced by ancient history. It is just as it was at the time of Imam Hakim-bi-Amrillah and Imam Ala-Zikrihis-Salam.”