Is Quran compilation complete?

[nuseri]

In Quran;Sura 5 n Ayat no 3.

It states that religion is perfected.
I need clarity as below:
1. This whole Ayat of perfection n blessing is there only once or repeated again
n again.
2 If Quran was in order,the 5 th sura could have come in 1st or 2 nd year itself( out of 23 years)

It wordings of this Ayat looks like a concluding statement.

3.Anything perfect has room for more perfection over a period of time.even if it is religion.
Faith cannot be perfected but religion can be.

4.How come this Ayat come in totally different sura of meat eating of pigs n pork eating?

5 It may that the Ayat just n only addressed to 'People of the Book,'namely Christians at that time,who consumed swine meat.( not an universal Ayat for humanity)

6.Is there any any Ayat,which specifically states that women or female person CANNOT lead the group of prayers before the perfection of religion come out of the blue.

I am reading it word by word,reply from scholars n experts is much desired on all of above points

[Admin]

Please read this also....

Obviously the majority of the Muslim do not have any real direction as they do not know about the Imam-e-Zaman. They drift in the ocean and try to find some references within their own framework to justify their positions and like in any guessing game, some time they are right and sometimes they are wrong. We Ismailis, therefore do not rely on contradictory Fatwas from left and right.

For Ismailis, we have a wealth of documentation and directions that originates from our Imam who guides us through past till eternity. Therefore we try to refer to direct sources such as our Pir's writing and Imam's Farmans. In this particular subject, though disturbing to many, including to myself, the direction is clear. The Imam may change it some day. That is his prerogative, but meanwhile the existing direction in matter of surrogacy has to be followed.

[a_27826]

2 If Quran was in order,the 5 th sura could have come in 1st or 2 nd year itself( out of 23 years)

The Quran is in perfect order.

Uthmanic mus’haf may or may not be in order.

The Quran in the form of recitation refers to itself as "Al-Kitab",

so its not fair to attribute any shortcomings in the mus’haf to "Al-Kitab"

013:039 God blots out, and He establishes whatsoever He will; and with Him is the Essence of the Book.

[zznoor]

Obviously the majority of the Muslim do not have any real direction as they do not know about the Imam-e-Zaman. They drift in the ocean and try to find some references within their own framework to justify their positions and like in any guessing game, some time they are right and sometimes they are wrong. We Ismailis, therefore do not rely on contradictory Fatwas from left and right.

For you "Islam of Allah only follows the Imam-e-Zaman. "and not "Imam-e-Zaman follows Allah's Islam". That means Imam-e-Zaman is higher authority.
So what is his direction on surrogacy?

[a_27826]

I am reading it word by word,reply from scholars n experts is much desired on all of above points

I think you are asking too much.

I doubt there are many scholars (if any) participating in this site.

There was a "kandani" who seemed very knowledgeable person but i don't see him now-days.

I am afraid, for now, you stuck with regular 4th-5th stage momins like shiraz and me.

[a_27826]

Obviously the majority of the Muslim do not have any real direction as they do not know about the Imam-e-Zaman. They drift in the ocean and try to find some references within their own framework to justify their positions and like in any guessing game, some time they are right and sometimes they are wrong. We Ismailis, therefore do not rely on contradictory Fatwas from left and right. [Admin's quote on zznoor's post]

For you "Islam of Allah only follows the Imam-e-Zaman. "and not "Imam-e-Zaman follows Allah's Islam". That means Imam-e-Zaman is higher authority.
So what is his direction on surrogacy?

According to Ginans, it is forbidden to lend a womb so surrogate mother is a no go in Ismailism (read Buddh Avatar of Pir Sadardin)

97. She who lends her womb and gives birth
With no doubt crossing her mind

98. She who spoils her family's name
Amongst women, she is damned.

Imam of the Time hasn't changed the direction given by the Pir, therefore Pir's direction remains valid

[shiraz.virani]

Just to get things straight, are you trying to say that 004:024 has allowed two kind of marriages?

1. Permanent Marriage (life-time contract between man and woman, till one of them dissolves it)

2. Temporary Marriage (time-period contract between man and woman, and after the period, the marriage automatically gets dissolved unless the contract is renewed)

Yes that's correct....you can take an example of Ali Khan's 1st marriage

Just read the whole case "guinness vs guinness & khan" which ali khan lost and had to pay huge sums of money to Thomas Loel [husband of Joan Barbara [mother of MHI]]

[agakhani]

Thanks to all participants for their comments and opinion in Surrogate mother question, but sorry to say that none of your answers are quiet acceptable.

I, asked you to find out the exact ayas # which directly fit or mention on the subject of surrogate mother issue, not the other topics like remarriage or adoption or agadam, bagdam tikdam answer.

Mr. X. does not want to divorce his current wife neither he wants to marry with the lady from India nor he wants to adopt any child As I wrote earlier that he wants the kids but from his own sperm and he knows that hiring surrogates mother is the only right answer for him.


I have dozen more questions on pipe line which will easily prove that Quran is out dated now a days and therefore we need some knowledgeable person who knows the answer of above question and other modern age questions he must be "Rasikun fil Ilm" you know whom I talking about!!!.

Now lets talk little bit about our great ginans, yes in ginans there is clear cut answer and answer is the Indian lady can not become surrogate mother, now don't ask me that does "surrogate word" really used in Ginan? of course not but yes very similar to it.

[zznoor]

I have dozen more questions on pipe line which will easily prove that Quran is out dated now a days and therefore we need some knowledgeable person who knows the answer of above question and other modern age questions he must be "Rasikun fil Ilm" you know whom I talking about!!!.

How easy it is to approach this "Rasikun fil Ilm" ?

[shiraz.virani]

Thanks to all participants for their comments and opinion in Surrogate mother question, but sorry to say that none of your answers are quiet acceptable.

Because you have a fixed mentality and that nobody can change

I, asked you to find out the exact ayas # which directly fit or mention on the subject of surrogate mother issue, not the other topics like remarriage or adoption or agadam, bagdam tikdam answer.

I did gave you an exact aayat which talks about mutah marriage [which can happen in the presence of existing wife and that which can be short term contract or can be done just for pure pleasure]

Mr. X. does not want to divorce his current wife neither he wants to marry with the lady from India nor he wants to adopt any child As I wrote earlier that he wants the kids but from his own sperm and he knows that hiring surrogates mother is the only right answer for him.

You don't have to !!!...If Mr.X's wife along with Mr.X agree's to go into a short term contract with the lady from India, there is no problem [that's what quran says]...So if the lady in india agrees to make 50,000$ by becoming a surrogate mother then the cpl has to pay her the amount promised....In the past they used to get into marital contract but todays time its mere a contract.

1300 years ago there was no test tube baby...The only way of making babies was through intercourse, Now the times have changed ...A man does have to have intercourse with the woman in order to make babies...thanks to test tube babies.

In all your points you talk about modernity and say quran is outdated and we have to move forward....You once said drinking is prohibited but if you drink beer occasionally then theres no sin.

Selling liquor is a sin....but if we do it in gas station, its ok

When you're ready to modernize all the bad things you do in your life....Why not approve a LIFE that brings happiness in ones family ?? ...after all even that is a gift of allah[swt] is it not ???

[nuseri]

It was a good question n fair reasoning given by Shiraz.

Is does remain a grey area,n looks inconclusive.

My question is to zznoor;

Any educated person reading the Quran.reading the flow of subjects (suras) and ayats.He/she will wonder why is in Ayat 5:3.

The flagship verse is doing in the ayat related to porky pigs? n also in that related sura.

the placement of the flagship lines between a continuing Ayat of porky pigs looks out of place.

Any forensic expert can tell that a mischief may have been done.

How does Quran leave out female persons ,which forms 50% of humanity be NOT allowed to LEAD a prayer gathering of both men n women prayers?

WHERE IS THE PERFECTION OF THE RELIGION?

[zznoor]

Baba nuseri
Ya Allah Madad

Yo debate with a believer not unbeliever.

[nuseri]

To zznoor:

Ya Ali+Lah (Allah) Madad.

I really did not understand your reply.

"yo debate with a believer n not unbeliever".

"AAP TO LAMBE CHOUDE JAWAB DEE DETHI HO.

BUS CHOTTA SA JAWAB AUR DEE DO".

[zznoor]

nuseri baba

Bhense ke aage Bhagwat nahi karte

Aur

Samajdar Ko Ishrara kaafi Hoya he.

[agakhani]

How easy it is to approach this "Rasikun fil Ilm" ?

Yes, it is real easy to ask these questions to our Imam and many Ismailis ask him too but he does not give us agadam bagdam and tikdam answer that if for sure,we Ismailis are very lucky to have Rasikun fil Ilm at present time and therefore if we do not follow edited, omitted and outdated Quran and follow what is he says then it is OK for question like this and more.

I did gave you an exact aayat which talks about mutah marriage

[/b]

"Mutah" applied only slave ladies with whom Muslims used to engage with sexual intercourse without marriage and therefore this ayas was reveled
Quran verse 4:24 says: "Forbidden to you are married women except your slave girls...." therefore it has nothing to do with surrogate mother.
After all ham bhi to Quran padhte hai bhai jaan.

[zznoor]

How easy it is to approach this "Rasikum fil Ilm" ?

Yes, it is real easy to ask these questions to our Imam and many Ismailis ask him too but he does not give us agadam bagdam and tikdam answer that if for sure,we Ismailis are very lucky to have Rasikun fil Ilm at present time and therefore if we do not follow edited, omitted and outdated Quran and follow what is he says then it is OK for question like this and more.
.

Ask your Rasikum fil Ilm if he considers Quran is outdated and omitted? I want to see if he has guts to answer?

[a_27826]

Thanks to all participants for their comments and opinion in Surrogate mother question, but sorry to say that none of your answers are quiet acceptable.

I, asked you to find out the exact ayas # which directly fit or mention on the subject of surrogate mother issue, not the other topics like remarriage or adoption or agadam, bagdam tikdam answer.

Mr. X. does not want to divorce his current wife neither he wants to marry with the lady from India nor he wants to adopt any child As I wrote earlier that he wants the kids but from his own sperm and he knows that hiring surrogates mother is the only right answer for him.


I have dozen more questions on pipe line which will easily prove that Quran is out dated now a days and therefore we need some knowledgeable person who knows the answer of above question and other modern age questions he must be "Rasikun fil Ilm" you know whom I talking about!!!.

Now lets talk little bit about our great ginans, yes in ginans there is clear cut answer and answer is the Indian lady can not become surrogate mother, now don't ask me that does "surrogate word" really used in Ginan? of course not but yes very similar to it.

042:050 or He couples them, both males and females; and He makes whom He will barren. Surely He is All-knowing, All-powerful.

if you not happy with God's decision for you to not have offspring, then be patient, maybe its better for you not to have offspring at this time.

After all, you will enjoy (rightly so) the offspring's company in this life only, which is limited.
What about the life here after, which is permanent?


So don't over rule the God with his decisions, for all you know you might be better off without children.

And that's what God said to Angles when they doubted His decision to place vicegerent on earth.

"Assuredly I know that you know not" (002:030)

Angles clearly knew that humans will be corrupt.

Angles were right (rightly so according to their limited knowledge given by the god).

God should have followed their advice, but then surely God is the All-knowing, the All-wise.

[shiraz.virani]

agakhani bhai said :

"Mutah" applied only slave ladies with whom Muslims used to engage with sexual intercourse without marriage and therefore this ayas was reveled
Quran verse 4:24 says: "Forbidden to you are married women except your slave girls...." therefore it has nothing to do with surrogate mother.
After all ham bhi to Quran padhte hai bhai jaan.

Chalo Im happy that you read holy quran....but just reading the quran[without understanding] is enough ???

You have posted only the first bit of an aayat agakhani bhai

4:24

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal - money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All Knowing, All Wise

You are entitled to your opinion agakhani bhai just like you said if we don't follow edited, omitted and outdated quran...ITS ALRIGHT !!!....But you still do as you said "after all hum bhi toh quran padhte hain"

All others are lawful

The @ above clearly shows that the aayat does not talk about SLAVES only !!!

A person has to pay mehr as an obligation for the benefit he received in this contract....It can be just for pleasure purpose or in modern times "SURROGACY"

[shiraz.virani]

Also agakhani bhai I just came to know from a very good friend of mine [non ismaili]...through the link that most of the sunni / shia mullah's approve surrogacy.

Surrogacy can also be classified according to whether or not money is a concern. Where payment is involved, depending on the sort of payment, and to whom it is made, one can envisage at least three different possibilities.

The first possible situation arises where a woman agrees to be a surrogate, providing that the commissioning parties will compensate her for all expenses for the conception and birth of the child and any loss of earnings by the surrogate during the period of confinement. This is "surrogacy with reasonable compensation".

The second possibility is where a surrogate may receive payment besides that which represents a reasonable compensation. This is called "surrogacy for a fee".

The third possibility is where payment may be made to a party other than the surrogate. An agency may operate on a commercial basis, arranging surrogacy and charging both surrogates and commissioning parties to bring them together and for provision of counselling services. This is called "commercial surrogacies".

However, money is not necessarily an important part of surrogacy. For instance, a sister may bear a child for her infertile sister, and the whole transaction may involve no payment of money or other rewards. This is called "surrogacy in principle".

The above-mentioned techniques no doubt allows an infertile couple to have a child who would have the genetic compliment of the husband, if the husband's sperm is used to fertilize the ovum of the surrogate woman.

Now it may also happen that the sperm and the ovum of the married couple is fertilized in vitro and placed in the womb of the surrogate mother who would be paid for giving birth to the child who would, in that respect, bear the genetic compliment of the contracting couple.

[a_27826]

Just to get things straight, are you trying to say that 004:024 has allowed two kind of marriages?

1. Permanent Marriage (life-time contract between man and woman, till one of them dissolves it)

2. Temporary Marriage (time-period contract between man and woman, and after the period, the marriage automatically gets dissolved unless the contract is renewed)

Yes that's correct....you can take an example of Ali Khan's 1st marriage

Just read the whole case "guinness vs guinness & khan" which ali khan lost and had to pay huge sums of money to Thomas Loel [husband of Joan Barbara [mother of MHI]]

So how is this "Muta" nikah is performed ?

since the difference between Permanent and Temporary is only period of time, the other things must be the same like

1. two witnesses,
2. bride and groom replying "I accept/agree" to the marriage officer,
3. permission of bride's father or guardian,
4. bride and groom signing the "temporary" contract etc ?

[shiraz.virani]

So how is this "Muta" nikah is performed ?

since the difference between Permanent and Temporary is only period of time, the other things must be the same like

1. two witnesses,
2. bride and groom replying "I accept/agree" to the marriage officer,
3. permission of bride's father or guardian,
4. bride and groom signing the "temporary" contract etc ?

Brother a_27826, In olden days i.e some 1300 years ago, muta marriage was simply an oral agreement between the couple...Like if the slave or a virgin or an unmarried woman says "she agrees" to get into limited contract with Mr.A that would be enough.

Please remember that it is allah[swt] who is all seeing and knowing.

But today brother, times have changed....Marriage as MHI once said has nothing to do with religion....It more of a social thing...Today verbal marriages like saying kabool hai, kabool hai, kabool hai does not make a man and woman married...Today no country accepts verbal communion...It has to be written and issued by the govt.

Samething goes with muta marriage...instead of calling it muta they simplify it as a short term contract between party 1 and party 2 where party 1 agrees to pay party 2 xyz amount for being a surrogate...There might be few terms and conditions both the parties have to agree to before getting started...Like for example the lady bearing cpls child should have no mental or physical attachment to the kid etc etc

Both the parties sign in front of notarizing personal [as a proof]

As I said earlier please try to read guinness vs guinness & ali khan case.

[a_27826]

However, money is not necessarily an important part of surrogacy. For instance, a sister may bear a child for her infertile sister, and the whole transaction may involve no payment of money or other rewards. This is called "surrogacy in principle".

I still don't get it.

If a sister bears a child for her infertile sister and that can happen (according you) when the sister and her brother in law do Temporary marriage.

But the sister is not allowed to marry her brother in law (004:023)

[nuseri]

A small question out of curIosity.

FOR WHOM DID MARY MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST CONCEIVE?

[ShamsB]

How easy it is to approach this "Rasikum fil Ilm" ?

Yes, it is real easy to ask these questions to our Imam and many Ismailis ask him too but he does not give us agadam bagdam and tikdam answer that if for sure,we Ismailis are very lucky to have Rasikun fil Ilm at present time and therefore if we do not follow edited, omitted and outdated Quran and follow what is he says then it is OK for question like this and more.
.

Ask your Rasikum fil Ilm if he considers Quran is outdated and omitted? I want to see if he has guts to answer?

He actually has answered this a number of times - you really need to pay attention - read kalame imame mubeen - you will get your answer.

Shams

[a_27826]

A small question out of curIosity.

FOR WHOM DID MARY MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST CONCEIVE?

Can you elaborate your question please ?

[a_27826]

A small question out of curIosity.

FOR WHOM DID MARY MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST CONCEIVE?

Can you elaborate your question please ?

maybe this will help

019:017 and she took a veil apart from them; then We sent unto her Our Spirit that presented himself to her a man without fault.

021:091 And she who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit and appointed her and her son to be a sign unto all beings.

[nuseri]

To 27826:
Ya ali madad.

The question is for "Whom" n not How.

Whenever ever you post an Ayat from from an index,Please also explain the Ayats briefly your understanding of it.

We wish to see you as a debater rather than Librarian of Ayats from subject Index.

Both the Ayats is about 'How',what is the similarity n difference in both those Ayats you have reffered.

Do they complement or contradict each other?

I am still a learner of Quran.

[agakhani]

Ask your Rasikum fil Ilm if he considers Quran is outdated and omitted? I want to see if he has guts to answer?

There is no need to ask our current imam this silly question because our 48th Imam already answered it and also our great pirs also answered it more than 600 hundred years ago. the only reason to put Surrogate question in this thread to prove that Quran is outdated, and it is outdated, sister no doubt about that.

[shiraz.virani]

I still don't get it.

If a sister bears a child for her infertile sister and that can happen (according you) when the sister and her brother in law do Temporary marriage.

But the sister is not allowed to marry her brother in law (004:023)

I'm sorry for not clarifying this in detail...There is no marriage required in this form of surrogacy which actually is more of an adoption rather than surrogacy

What I meant was a sister [who can conceive] can have a child by her husband [If married] and after birth give their child to her sister [who cannot conceive] to adopt.

I'm sorry for causing this confusion

[a_27826]

I still don't get it.

If a sister bears a child for her infertile sister and that can happen (according you) when the sister and her brother in law do Temporary marriage.

But the sister is not allowed to marry her brother in law (004:023)

I'm sorry for not clarifying this in detail...There is no marriage required in this form of surrogacy which actually is more of an adoption rather than surrogacy

What I meant was a sister [who can conceive] can have a child by her husband [If married] and after birth give their child to her sister [who cannot conceive] to adopt.

I'm sorry for causing this confusion

so, lets lets get back to agakhani's problem.

he is interested to know about a married man wants his sperms to be placed inside another's woman body, who is also willing but is not his wife......

is it ok or not according to the Quran.....

and he wants quote(s) of ayat numbers to justify the answer.