shiraz.virani
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New postPosted: 05 Jun 2013 10:54 am Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP of poster
Quote:
Slightly to derail the topic little bit, and hopefully come back to it again.
What about al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Halaj (244 AH – 309 AH, during Abbasid period)?
What channel (river) did he use to achieve enlightenment?
Not slightly but completely because Al-Hallaj was a qarmatian after changing his firkah from hanbali to qarmatian. I request you to open a new topic and insha allah we'll have a healthy debate there.
But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman"
Al-Halaj and his declaration "An al-Haq"
Simple question Nuseri,
Mansoor Al- Hallaj was a "Sufi" who was "ASAL ME WASAl" in his life ,he considered him self same like "ALLAH'. (and that is true, there is no different between Murid and Murshid when any one achieved or reached that level i.e. getting big progress in Bandagi, like Juma Bhagart and Bhagat Kaala Ruda did ) which other peoples of his time didn't accept it saying Kufar, therefore he was hanged.
Mansoor Al- Hallaj was a "Sufi" who was "ASAL ME WASAl" in his life ,he considered him self same like "ALLAH'. (and that is true, there is no different between Murid and Murshid when any one achieved or reached that level i.e. getting big progress in Bandagi, like Juma Bhagart and Bhagat Kaala Ruda did ) which other peoples of his time didn't accept it saying Kufar, therefore he was hanged.
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ismaili103
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shiraz.virani
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As history goes Al Hallaj was a hanbali sufi who later converted to qarmatian firkah...The man named Ḥamdan was converted to ismailism by an ismaili missionary in 874 CE, who took the name Qarmaṭ after his new faith. Qarmaṭ and his theologian brother-in-law ‘Abdān prepared southern Iraq for the coming of the Mahdi by creating a military and religious stronghold.Mansoor Al- Hallaj was a "Sufi" who was "ASAL ME WASAl" in his life ,he considered him self same like "ALLAH'. (and that is true, there is no different between Murid and Murshid when any one achieved or reached that level i.e. getting big progress in Bandagi, like Juma Bhagart and Bhagat Kaala Ruda did ) which other peoples of his time didn't accept it saying Kufar, therefore he was hanged.
http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/history ... ry509.html
http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/history ... ry510.html
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=108782
In 317/929, the Qarmatians had spread down in Hijaz, and flooded Mecca and Kaba with the blood of pilgrims under the command of Abu Tahir. They made it a scene of fire, blood and repine for 17 days. It must be known that the Qarmatians had been severely and rigorously condemned by the Fatimids for not complying with the pact and reached late at the Egyptian border. In reprisal, the Qarmatians moved to discredit the Fatimids and recited the Fatimid khutba in place of the Abbasid in Hijaz during their horrible operations, so as to misguide the Muslims that their barbarian operations were directed by the Fatimids. The Qarmatians choked up the sacred spring of Zamzam, the door of the Kaba was broken open, the veil covering the Kaba was torn down, and the sacred Black Stone was removed from the Kaba and taken to their headquarters at Hajar. The Fatimid Imam al-Mahdi was highly shocked to hear this sacrilegious operation and wrote a reproachful letter to Abu Tahir, reprehending him severely for his evilish conduct. Reproaching Abu Tahir, al-Mahdi had written a letter to him. According to "al-Nufudh al-Fatimid fi bilad al-Sham wa'l Iraq" (Cairo, 1950, p. 36), the letter reads: "It is a contemptible matter that you have committed a grave sin under my name. Where did you commit? You have committed in the House of God and its neighbours. This is a sacred place, where the murder was unlawful even in the age of ignorance; and the defamation of the people living in Mecca is considered inhuman. You have violated that tradition, and even rooted out the Black Stone, and brought it to your land; and now you expect that I may express my gratitude? God curse you, and be again accursed and execrable. May peace be upon him (Prophet Muhammad), whose sayings and deeds are the source of the integrity of the Muslims, who may be ready to answer hereafter what they have committed today." It must be pointed out that the letter of al-Mahdi as cited by Ibn Khallikan (1st vol., p. 427) is absolutely distorted and interpolated for the purpose of throwing the odium of sacrilege on al-Mahdi too.
What channel did Al Hallaj chose ??
http://ismailimail.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... al-hallaj/
Al-Hallaj developed a profound relation with rank and file of society, his religious influence also on the notables and intellectual elites of society was suspectly viewed by the Abbasid considering it an open menace and challenge to their tyrannical and despotic rule.Al-Hallaj was also accused for secretly keeping relation and having sympathies for Qarmathians, for which he was accused to facilitated with accomplices for visiting their centers, in Kufa and Darul Hajira.The Qarmathians had already brought revolutionary reforms to bring social justice with radical changes by opposing to the orthodox ideas of religion.Al-Hallaj visited the cities of Qarmathians with his 400 disciples organizing a camel caravan.He strongly believed that the difference of opinion are divine blessings for the community of muslim and for the whole world of humanity as all the creation is like one family of God.
Al-Hallaj’s entry into Shite circle “To those who inclined toward the Imamate, he made himself an Imamaite, and he showed them that he had knowledge of their Imams the QAYIM, “the Imams are light that emanated from light of God and particles from among His particles which is theory of Hallajians.”
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star_munir
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Translation of verses of Ginan Buj Nirinjan by Pir Sadardin (from ismaili.net)
2. Seeing God within oneself gives you the vision where you could be called to a person with Divine Insight.
3. With God in your heart the 'I' submerges into Him.
4. People may call you 'beimani' (without Iman) - like with Mansoor - and even label you as kafir.
5. Why don't people understand this? It is because they are not looking within.
6. The experience which Mansoor had is the experience to aspire for, for then your whole being will 'say' God.
7. People's taunts and insults will not matter.
V. WHEN YOU SEE YOURSELF IN EVERYTHING THEN YOU CAN SAY YOU ARE GOD OR YOU CAN SAY GOD IS YOU..., BUT SAVE THIS THOUGHT TILL YOU'RE ONE WITH HIM FOR HE IS INFINITE.
1. The mullahs and the preachers try and find God through Shariat (without Marifat).
2. They sometimes belittle (without understanding) the Marifati people...
3. And even call a momin kafir...
4. They may even take him to task and make his existence full of trials and tribulations.
5. It is really these people who should be condemned for they are away from the Truth.
6. They have forgotten the Truth and thus remain forgotten.
7. A lover's talk is understood by a person in love and if you do not understand it then don't belittle him.
8. Ask yourself where you are at but do not judge others like the mullahs (preachers) would.
2. Seeing God within oneself gives you the vision where you could be called to a person with Divine Insight.
3. With God in your heart the 'I' submerges into Him.
4. People may call you 'beimani' (without Iman) - like with Mansoor - and even label you as kafir.
5. Why don't people understand this? It is because they are not looking within.
6. The experience which Mansoor had is the experience to aspire for, for then your whole being will 'say' God.
7. People's taunts and insults will not matter.
V. WHEN YOU SEE YOURSELF IN EVERYTHING THEN YOU CAN SAY YOU ARE GOD OR YOU CAN SAY GOD IS YOU..., BUT SAVE THIS THOUGHT TILL YOU'RE ONE WITH HIM FOR HE IS INFINITE.
1. The mullahs and the preachers try and find God through Shariat (without Marifat).
2. They sometimes belittle (without understanding) the Marifati people...
3. And even call a momin kafir...
4. They may even take him to task and make his existence full of trials and tribulations.
5. It is really these people who should be condemned for they are away from the Truth.
6. They have forgotten the Truth and thus remain forgotten.
7. A lover's talk is understood by a person in love and if you do not understand it then don't belittle him.
8. Ask yourself where you are at but do not judge others like the mullahs (preachers) would.
Maybe Mansur was executed because of gaining large followers, therefore ruling Abbasids and Sunni orthodox (Shariatis) felt threatened (similar to Jesus’s preaching and gaining followers threatened Romans and Jews).Admin wrote:According to Massignon who is the higest authority of our times on the subject, Al-Hallaj was killed by people who suspected him of being ismaili.
But Massignon must be right because as you say he was a scholar of Islam and its history and highest authority of our times on the subject.
This is my 3 rd question.
Please answer in one alphabet choice only.
Is it A or B?
A) Did Al Hallaj proclamation made by him with his absolute conviction of GOD and had full sense and control of his speech,fear n emotions.
OR
B) As at Tawhid level his self ceases to exist. With his unity with GOD.Was It GOD speaking out of AL Hallaj's body?
Please participate with one alphabet reply.
Please answer in one alphabet choice only.
Is it A or B?
A) Did Al Hallaj proclamation made by him with his absolute conviction of GOD and had full sense and control of his speech,fear n emotions.
OR
B) As at Tawhid level his self ceases to exist. With his unity with GOD.Was It GOD speaking out of AL Hallaj's body?
Please participate with one alphabet reply.
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ismaili103
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to nuseri bhai
u r not agree with this no problem every person have different perceptions.he is thy inspiration in past becuz he inspired many sufi's including rumi...
I wrote "hallaj was thy inspiration" and u wrote " hallaj is thy inspiration" is there is any reason or just a grammatical mistake.....
u r not agree with this no problem every person have different perceptions.he is thy inspiration in past becuz he inspired many sufi's including rumi...
I wrote "hallaj was thy inspiration" and u wrote " hallaj is thy inspiration" is there is any reason or just a grammatical mistake.....
To Ismaili103: Ya Ali Madad
I am not good at copy n paste.I tried to put it in right tense.
It is good he was/is(?) your inspiration.
Al Hallaj achieved Tahwid, maybe he just managed to salvage his own soul and impressed upon few others.
There are many other who were one with God (Asal me Wasal) carried their status and carried along with them many thousand other souls for salvation.
Our Imams have also given Farmans to become like them
likes of Shams Tabriz,Nasir Khusrow,Pir Sadarddin n Kabirddin,who lived their natural life span n converted their status into beautiful work and preaching,which is still alive as well enlightening even in today's time.
I personally feel conviction of Nuseri and inspiration to be one of the above
looks more enlightening
To Admin: Was Massingon a Sufi Scholar or a historian based on his work?
I am not good at copy n paste.I tried to put it in right tense.
It is good he was/is(?) your inspiration.
Al Hallaj achieved Tahwid, maybe he just managed to salvage his own soul and impressed upon few others.
There are many other who were one with God (Asal me Wasal) carried their status and carried along with them many thousand other souls for salvation.
Our Imams have also given Farmans to become like them
likes of Shams Tabriz,Nasir Khusrow,Pir Sadarddin n Kabirddin,who lived their natural life span n converted their status into beautiful work and preaching,which is still alive as well enlightening even in today's time.
I personally feel conviction of Nuseri and inspiration to be one of the above
looks more enlightening
To Admin: Was Massingon a Sufi Scholar or a historian based on his work?
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shiraz.virani
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ismaili103
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Answer time now.
It is none other than Nabi Mohammed (PBUH).He is the foundation of our Ismaili Faith.He is the cardinal part of the 'Ahle Bayt '.He is the Insipiration today to almost 30% of the human population who are practicing the religion/faith of Islam.
To Ismaili103:
As you mentioned earlier that Al Hallaj 'WAS' your inspiration.
For your information from a rational point of view Al Hallaj was a Sunni.as for Moulana Rumi who was highly impacted by Shams Tabriz was a Shia.
In today's time there can be ex favorites and current one. If it was your grammatical error It's fine, if Not I wish to know who 'IS'(not was) thy inspiration?.BHAI NAYA ZAMANAA, NAYI SOCH HO SAKTI HAI.
It is none other than Nabi Mohammed (PBUH).He is the foundation of our Ismaili Faith.He is the cardinal part of the 'Ahle Bayt '.He is the Insipiration today to almost 30% of the human population who are practicing the religion/faith of Islam.
To Ismaili103:
As you mentioned earlier that Al Hallaj 'WAS' your inspiration.
For your information from a rational point of view Al Hallaj was a Sunni.as for Moulana Rumi who was highly impacted by Shams Tabriz was a Shia.
In today's time there can be ex favorites and current one. If it was your grammatical error It's fine, if Not I wish to know who 'IS'(not was) thy inspiration?.BHAI NAYA ZAMANAA, NAYI SOCH HO SAKTI HAI.
One should not forget that al-Hallaj was executed because he was thought to be an Ismaili.
And it did not help that he was talking from his personal internal experience which can only be experienced during meditation (Bandagi) and not described... He was constantly in the World of Baytul Khayal.
He was so engrossed in his Beloved that he could not make any difference between himself and Himself
Massignon has written not only his voluminous thesis in French on "La Passion de Al-Hallaj" [it has been translated in English] but also a series of other books on him. I remember reading one book with a calligraphy on the cover page: It was an intermingled Ali-Allah. Beautiful calligraphy.
Massignon and Corbin were amongst the rare orientalist writers which were able to understand our faith because their approach was to try to understand it from within. A rare quality that people who call themselves "scholars" have never been able to match.
And it did not help that he was talking from his personal internal experience which can only be experienced during meditation (Bandagi) and not described... He was constantly in the World of Baytul Khayal.
He was so engrossed in his Beloved that he could not make any difference between himself and Himself
Massignon has written not only his voluminous thesis in French on "La Passion de Al-Hallaj" [it has been translated in English] but also a series of other books on him. I remember reading one book with a calligraphy on the cover page: It was an intermingled Ali-Allah. Beautiful calligraphy.
Massignon and Corbin were amongst the rare orientalist writers which were able to understand our faith because their approach was to try to understand it from within. A rare quality that people who call themselves "scholars" have never been able to match.
Re: Al-Halaj and his declaration "An al-Haq"
Well when he grew up and became mature, he understood the Reality and wrote:But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman"
"Now stands no more between Truth and me
Or reasoned demonstration,
Or proof of revelation;"
This is very much similar to some passage of the Declaration of the Great Resurrection at Alamut on 8 August 1164. [That subject is discussed in another thread]
To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
You have done a good research to know the status of Massignon,it may taken few months.
I have observed that simple search n copy paste replies in 48 hours more prevalent by many. scholars
Could you please put some writings of Corbin as to expand n debate on it.
His writings were 'Inspiration of Faith' along with 'Academics of Religion'.
You have done a good research to know the status of Massignon,it may taken few months.
I have observed that simple search n copy paste replies in 48 hours more prevalent by many. scholars
Could you please put some writings of Corbin as to expand n debate on it.
His writings were 'Inspiration of Faith' along with 'Academics of Religion'.
Corbin was officialy a Christian but his belief in the Imam was limitless. The way he was feeling about our faith was rooted in the deepest of his soul.
When I wrote to him about one of his student's book recently published at that time and titled "l'Ordre des Assassin" he wrote back saying he was so sorry that someone who claimed to be his student used those words. He was spiritually sick to hear that. He wrote that Jean Claude Frere had used his notes in annexe of his book without Corbin's authorisation...
When I first met him at the Sorbonne he was talking of the Imam saying that for an Ismaili, to declare that Ali was Allah, would be a nonsense, indeed, he said, to say Ali is Allah is to degrade Ali, he said Ali is Higher!
When he said this, I imagined al-Hallaj making his own declaration, the amount of love in his declaration was as if he was saying his own beliefs as Nuseri would have done with Hazrat Ali.
In 1978, when he died, our community lost its most strong supporter, its best scholar, the world lost a kind soul and the heavens gain the purest of those who had the courage to declare the reality of the Imam Manifest before loosing himself in "He who is above all Else".....
When I wrote to him about one of his student's book recently published at that time and titled "l'Ordre des Assassin" he wrote back saying he was so sorry that someone who claimed to be his student used those words. He was spiritually sick to hear that. He wrote that Jean Claude Frere had used his notes in annexe of his book without Corbin's authorisation...
When I first met him at the Sorbonne he was talking of the Imam saying that for an Ismaili, to declare that Ali was Allah, would be a nonsense, indeed, he said, to say Ali is Allah is to degrade Ali, he said Ali is Higher!
When he said this, I imagined al-Hallaj making his own declaration, the amount of love in his declaration was as if he was saying his own beliefs as Nuseri would have done with Hazrat Ali.
In 1978, when he died, our community lost its most strong supporter, its best scholar, the world lost a kind soul and the heavens gain the purest of those who had the courage to declare the reality of the Imam Manifest before loosing himself in "He who is above all Else".....
To Admin:
Very inspiring message on Corbin.He was a excellent grade esoteric understanding person decoding the Marifat code.
I have formed my own formula out of my conviction not binding on anyone
At Tariqat level:
Allah =God
Ali =Imam.
At haqiqat level:
Ali = Allah = Imam.
At Marifat level:
ALI+lah= allah.
With this key all the Baatin of the world is open in a platter.
Very inspiring message on Corbin.He was a excellent grade esoteric understanding person decoding the Marifat code.
I have formed my own formula out of my conviction not binding on anyone
At Tariqat level:
Allah =God
Ali =Imam.
At haqiqat level:
Ali = Allah = Imam.
At Marifat level:
ALI+lah= allah.
With this key all the Baatin of the world is open in a platter.
Its good that you brought up word "Mazhar".tret wrote:Note, mazhar is not equal to God Himself.
In Ismaili Aqeeda, Imam of the Time is believed to be "Mazhar of God".
so what exactly "Mazhar of God" means ?
Do you consider your brother in a picture/photo as your brother ?
By googling we get meaning of Mazhar as Manifestation, Expression, Outlook, Appearance.
But what does it mean in context with the Imam of the Time ?
The Paris Conference minutes say that the Imam should be explained as the Mazhar of Allah.
But obviously Mazhar means different thing to different people according to their understanding of the relation between God and the human being.
If God has to be seen through His Mazhar or if God's Light has to be manifested through the Imam, The Imam is also all encompassing and resides in the deepest part of our soul... he is then be closer to us than our jugular vein....
But obviously Mazhar means different thing to different people according to their understanding of the relation between God and the human being.
If God has to be seen through His Mazhar or if God's Light has to be manifested through the Imam, The Imam is also all encompassing and resides in the deepest part of our soul... he is then be closer to us than our jugular vein....
Ya Ali madad:
Please note some of your are treading the line of ALI ( Hazar Imam) at Tariqat level.
where there is two entity one is the Imam that is seen and that there Allah above him a different entity.
A person with taraqati will also question the haqiqat level conviction.
where the relational status of conviction is there.
Ali= Allah = Imam.It is a metaphysical conviction.
As for the master key formula ,I have written in a topic on word "Allah" earlier please read that.
It is an absolute n beyond relational conviction of Haqiqat.
That ALI was there at the beginning of the earth and the world Allah came later.
It is common belief that 'Truth hides nothing'
Now what is hidden in the word Allah.
'ALI' which is the truth hiding the word' Lah 'meaning Nothing.
The word Allah is not just to said by lip but to be understood deeply.
Now you are mixing the status of Physical Imam as Mazar as a relational thin line of absolute truth n reflection/copy of truth.
These are Tariqati level debate where non Ismailis jumps in to take advantage n express their disbelief of our conviction.
Please note some of your are treading the line of ALI ( Hazar Imam) at Tariqat level.
where there is two entity one is the Imam that is seen and that there Allah above him a different entity.
A person with taraqati will also question the haqiqat level conviction.
where the relational status of conviction is there.
Ali= Allah = Imam.It is a metaphysical conviction.
As for the master key formula ,I have written in a topic on word "Allah" earlier please read that.
It is an absolute n beyond relational conviction of Haqiqat.
That ALI was there at the beginning of the earth and the world Allah came later.
It is common belief that 'Truth hides nothing'
Now what is hidden in the word Allah.
'ALI' which is the truth hiding the word' Lah 'meaning Nothing.
The word Allah is not just to said by lip but to be understood deeply.
Now you are mixing the status of Physical Imam as Mazar as a relational thin line of absolute truth n reflection/copy of truth.
These are Tariqati level debate where non Ismailis jumps in to take advantage n express their disbelief of our conviction.
Photo cant replace real person. However it can best describe it.a_27826 wrote: Do you consider your brother in a picture/photo as your brother
Samething, if you want to kmow god, He can only ne realized (NOT UMDERSTOOD) through His mazhar (Imam of time).
If Imam and god would be same then there wouldn't be any need to use mazhar
Aql-e kul (universal intellect) is God's first creation and through knowledge of which one can reach higher world.
Haqiqat without reaching to mahrifat is fruitless. Same as knowledge without action.