"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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a_27826
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Post by a_27826 »

shiraz.virani wrote:
“For the Ismailis, during the 60 years of his life, ‘Ali on earth was the prisoner of the material world, limited by it and suffering constantly. When we think of ‘Ali, it is not the man during these 60 years, but the eternal that came from God and returned to God direct… These are the things which must be understood, that according to the Ismaili religion Allah is the ocean. Ali, during his life on earth, was the river, separated from the ocean of the Almighty - separated from it and running towards it - overcoming all material resistance and running towards its origin.” (Aga Khan III, Mission Conference, Dar es Salaam 1945)
How much more proof does our brother BABA NUSERI need ??

When the 48th imam himself declared that imam's are like rivers [channels] through which a soul gets to reach its final destination.

Imams are wasila my friend, They are the way/channel through which you and me would attain salvation. Too bad to know that you take that channel itself as the source = allah[swt]

In order to swim into this river my dear friend [nuseri] you have to learn how to swim [shariat =physical exercise] ...Once you learn how to swim, try to follow the current= way= [ Tariqat], Once you follow the current, have faith in yourself that the current is gonna take you to the desired destination [Haqiqat =True Faith]...Congratulations, you have arrived at your destination = Marifat [gnosis]

With this I rest my case of ali allah theory which is a false theory according to me...There is only one allah[swt] and he is above all that the BABA'S associate him with. We ismailis are blessed and should thank allah[swt] for giving us this rope of imamat which guides us all the way to our destination.

9) Eji Farad Furqane thi upanya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain,
Shariyat, tariqat, haqiqat, teni,
Malum che marifat mahain. Cheto.....

9. The Quran has given you the basic understanding of Shariat,
Tariqat and Haqiqat - it is up
to you now to search for Marifat

Yaa Ali Madad

Slightly to derail the topic little bit, and hopefully come back to it again.

What about al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Halaj (244 AH – 309 AH, during Abbasid period)?

What channel (river) did he use to achieve enlightenment?

Mansoor Halaj is said to have advanced spiritually after shariat he found tariqat, haqiqat and then marifat.

He is supposed to have said:

1. “I have seen my Lord with the eye of my heart, and I said: ‘Who are You?’ He said: ‘You.’"

2. “Glory be to the one Whose human form manifested the secret of His divinity”

3. “People formed different beliefs about Allah, and I believe in everything that they believed.”

During his arrest he uttered: "Ana al-haqq" or "I am the Truth"

He spent 11 years in confinement in Baghdad and was strangely serene while being tortured and sincerely forgave his persecutors and finally put to death by shariatis.

According to Rumi (three centuries later), Mansoor didn't believe in existence of anything other than Allah, the absolute because when a man who says "I am the slave of Allah" affirms two existences, his own and Allah's, but when he that says "I am Allah" has made himself non-existent and has given himself up and says "I am Allah”, that is, "I am nothing, He is all; there is no being but Allah.".
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

nuseri wrote
To zznoor: I assume you are a Shia.( it a pleasant info ).

No, I a Muslim plain and simple. I believe Book of Allah is complete and there were no alterations. Just like belief of Hz Ali. He never said Quran was altered or some things were taken out of it or some things were added to it. I believe in 5 principles of Islam, as recorded in following authentic Hadith.
Narrated / Authority of: Ibn Umar
Allah's Apostle said:
Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):
1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) (salat) prayers dutifully and perfectly.
3. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity) .
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan.


nuseri wrote
The Holy book per se in absolute print form may not be with the fImam.
Check it. Your Imam probably have few copies of Quran in his office, plane and home.

nuseri wrote
Our absolute conviction see and hear him as BOTLA KORAN.
good for you and Your fellow Nizari Khoja Brothers

nuseri wrote
We have their Farmans nicely documented and recorded,which I personally see it greater than than the Holy Book.
If somebody says so and so is greater than Book of Allah, we cringe and say Tauba, Tauba, Astak firu Allah, Tauba, Tauba

nuseri wrote
This forum cannot address any questions u wish to put upto Imam of the time.Paticipants can express their opinion or view.
I understand it completely and as a participant I am expressing my view,that is also in response to your post addressed to me.

nuseri wrote
My earnest request is to read our recent Imams and Hazar Imam's Farman to understand what is the quality of Tariqat (Rational sense) and beyond that Haqiqat (Truth, ,Imaan,Intellect) is.Please read it with open mind and give Holisitic view to it.
I do not own Farman books, nor I intend to buy it. Tarikats, Haqiqat and Marifat are Sufi or Nizari Innovations, I do not subscribe to it.

nuseri wrote
By the way I do acknowledge that word,I have tried to expand it's definition as "maybea candle light' by Our Imam in earlier times.I even start some of my poems with that word.
I did not understand your "goobli gook" about candle light. I am not that smart. I am still at level 1.

I hope I made it clear so I do not have to deal with you any longer.
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Post by agakhani »

Hi every one now I am back and I will post my comments as early as tomorrow.
shiraz.virani
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Post by shiraz.virani »

Slightly to derail the topic little bit, and hopefully come back to it again.

What about al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Halaj (244 AH – 309 AH, during Abbasid period)?

What channel (river) did he use to achieve enlightenment?


Not slightly but completely because Al-Hallaj was a qarmatian after changing his firkah from hanbali to qarmatian. I request you to open a new topic and insha allah we'll have a healthy debate there.

But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman"
shiraz.virani
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Post by shiraz.virani »

Hi every one now I am back and I will post my comments as early as tomorrow.
Aa gaya, aa gaya...agakhani aa gaya,
Dhoom machaane aa gaya
Rang jamaane aa gaya
Hosh udhaane aa gaya
Band bajaane aa gaya
Sabko seekhaane aa gaya
Aa gaya, aa gaya....agakhani aa gaya


Inshort, welcome back agakhani bhai :lol:
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To The Cunning Tariqati:


Please be very very very sure and Differnaciate at what status and level Agakhan/Imam/Khuda makes a statement in public domain or reply in an Interview or Farmans closedly addressed to his Momins. Farmans are absolute ordinance for us.
This particular statement was made in PUBLIC domain.
It is the same Imam who uphold ed the the conviction of Nuseri and in many many Farmans and private memanis he has endorsed the status of ALI Allah.

I heard somebody told me ,that Imam SMS was repeatedly asked by Bhagats and leaders of those time on Namaaz.He said in Urdu' Hum Sazda Kare to Kisko kare'.(does anybody can tell more about this incident ?).Imam SMS has said in his Farman that' Zahiris' are akin to Donkies who like eating grass.I now surely know why he said that

What you read Imam statement as a Islamic luminary or understand the Farman at your conviction level one posses.( your level is now a open joke).
Describing a Imam ALI period at Tariqat level,which has physicalperionof sixty year tariqat level and
conviction to TWO different things,u need to blessed with Baatin understanding.
For you a exercise of moving hands ,legs and body = Shariat.
You have also branded the Imam also as Shariati.
I can also cunningly say because of your Blah,Blah Blah you are Mr Shariati
Lower you stoop on the issue.Greater u fall.
You can just cunningly reconstruct with the you mental ability you posses
only at Zahiri level and conviction you posses.even a school student could write what you wrote in your posting
It is for the readers and Admin to judge,what you write and mock upon.
To each his own Faith.
Moula ALI Madad
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To zznoor:

I appreciate your honest reply and your conviction.
As you have admitted that you are at level one.

Ismailis are BLESSED to start at level 2 going upto 4.(as if one never came)

If kindergarten children come to a college campus,They might even get crushed by the seniors moving in speed or not looking down.

It is for Admin on what they wish to have in their forums and debate

God bless you,You are a very educated and well read person upholding your conviction.My sincere apologies of abusing you,But nevertheless it has paid off.
WALE KUM AS SALAAM
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

shiraz.virani wrote:
Slightly to derail the topic little bit, and hopefully come back to it again.

What about al-Husayn ibn Mansoor al-Halaj (244 AH – 309 AH, during Abbasid period)?

What channel (river) did he use to achieve enlightenment?


Not slightly but completely because Al-Hallaj was a qarmatian after changing his firkah from hanbali to qarmatian. I request you to open a new topic and insha allah we'll have a healthy debate there.

But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman"

There is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah dated 30th July 1899 made in Zanzibar - this is Farman Number 38 in Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen.

The Imam in this farman makes it very clear that there were changes made to the Quran by Caliph Uthman and also talks about the incident wherein Hazrat Ali came to Uthman with a complete and chronologically compiled Quran which was rejected.

Please refer to this Farman.

It may also interest folks to know that this event described above is not just Ismaili or Shi'a myth - but has historical proof and has been recorded by a number of historians and is part of a course taught at Columbia University on the Quran at a post graduate level.

However for me - the words of the Imam are enough.

Shams
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Post by ShamsB »

It is also very interesting to note that whilst we're all tripping ourselves to acknowledge and accept Mansur's declration of Anal Haqq - but we are not ready to accept the Imam as Haqq;

I refer back to the Farman made in Pakistan when Hazar Imam talked about Mansur and his status - and the Imam acknowleding that Al Hallaj had truly become Anal Haqq - How did the Imam know that??

Because the IMAM is the HAQQ...;-)


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agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman
I think, if any Ismailis calling Quran as a "The Book of Usman" then it is nothing wrong, he/she is telling the truth!! because the current Quran has been changed, omitted, deleted many times before. But the most changes were made during the time of Hazarat Usman, many ayas which were referring Hazarat Ali (s.a.) were deleted, changed in favor of first three caliphs. is not this true?
FYI:- Not only Mansoor Al-Haallaj but there were and there are still many Muslims who has memorized the whole Quran.
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Post by a_27826 »

agakhani wrote:
But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman
I think, if any Ismailis calling Quran as a "The Book of Usman" then it is nothing wrong, he/she is telling the truth!! because the current Quran has been changed, omitted, deleted many times before. But the most changes were made during the time of Hazarat Usman, many ayas which were referring Hazarat Ali (s.a.) were deleted, changed in favor of first three caliphs. is not this true?
FYI:- Not only Mansoor Al-Haallaj but there were and there are still many Muslims who has memorized the whole Quran.

I agree, he got enlightenment much latter on when he was an adult and not when he was a boy memorizing Quran.

Its just like saying "A person became an engineer because he had memorized "multiplication table" when he was a boy.

I am not trying to degrade Quran.

Understanding scriptures, I believe is the first stage/step for the spiritual progress.

my question was what channel he used to get enlightenment ?.
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Post by a_27826 »

a_27826 wrote:
my question was what channel he used to get enlightenment ?.
Oops. I just realized a separate thread has opened up on "Mansur"
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To ShamsB: Ya ali madad.

Excellent posting.
It is truly from a level 3+ a definite hint to the one struggling at maybe a level 1.67.
Is there any Imam's statement or Farman describing a momin as or akin to a physical swimmer in a river.
you Paach pandav of the forum can give him real sleepness nights and taste of own mixed up medicine
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

agakhani wrote:
But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman
I think, if any Ismailis calling Quran as a "The Book of Usman" then it is nothing wrong, he/she is telling the truth!! because the current Quran has been changed, omitted, deleted many times before. But the most changes were made during the time of Hazarat Usman, many ayas which were referring Hazarat Ali (s.a.) were deleted, changed in favor of first three caliphs. is not this true?
FYI:- Not only Mansoor Al-Haallaj but there were and there are still many Muslims who has memorized the whole Quran.
I will add to this - I am sure we've all heard this ginan - and it doesn't need any translation

Pir has said:

Eji Azaazil firashtaa bujarag kahiye
ane budhivant kahiye tesaa;
chhatris karodd kitaabaa paddiyaa
pann bhitar bhed na paayaa ...

One can read the Quran over and over and over again - and memorize it - one can get parrots or computers to do that these days....but the knowledge within...or knowledge in any sorts - is not to be learnt by memorization.


Shams
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Post by a_27826 »

ShamsB wrote:
agakhani wrote:
But FYI...Do you know Al-Hallaj memorized the whole quran by heart in his youth...Yes the same quran which the some ismailis call "book of usman
I think, if any Ismailis calling Quran as a "The Book of Usman" then it is nothing wrong, he/she is telling the truth!! because the current Quran has been changed, omitted, deleted many times before. But the most changes were made during the time of Hazarat Usman, many ayas which were referring Hazarat Ali (s.a.) were deleted, changed in favor of first three caliphs. is not this true?
FYI:- Not only Mansoor Al-Haallaj but there were and there are still many Muslims who has memorized the whole Quran.
I will add to this - I am sure we've all heard this ginan - and it doesn't need any translation

Pir has said:

Eji Azaazil firashtaa bujarag kahiye
ane budhivant kahiye tesaa;
chhatris karodd kitaabaa paddiyaa
pann bhitar bhed na paayaa ...

One can read the Quran over and over and over again - and memorize it - one can get parrots or computers to do that these days....but the knowledge within...or knowledge in any sorts - is not to be learnt by memorization.


Shams

But that’s the problem not the solution. So how does one get the “knowledge within”?

Is it reading the Quran over and over and over again for gaining “knowledge within” is

1. Not enough?

2. Not required?

3. Hindering getting it (the knowledge within)?
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Post by agakhani »

But that’s the problem not the solution. So how does one get the “knowledge within”?
The only person who knows and understand Quran better is Imam; Allah say in Quran that only 'RASHIKHUN FIL ILM" will understand Quran better and our Imam is Rashikul fil Ilm as per our Ismaili tradition.

FYI:- There are thousand and thousand translation of Quran has been made but one translation does not match with other translation, one translator says something then other translator say some thing different. so to get the knowledge from Quran, you need to rely on your own decision and interpretation and just follow the farmans of our imam.
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Post by a_27826 »

agakhani wrote:
But that’s the problem not the solution. So how does one get the “knowledge within”?
The only person who knows and understand Quran better is Imam; Allah say in Quran that only 'RASHIKHUN FIL ILM" will understand Quran better and our Imam is Rashikul fil Ilm as per our Ismaili tradition.

FYI:- There are thousand and thousand translation of Quran has been made but one translation does not match with other translation, one translator says something then other translator say some thing different. so to get the knowledge from Quran, you need to rely on your own decision and interpretation and just follow the farmans of our imam.
Thank you for responding.

But it would have really nice if you would have quoted the verse.

003:007 It is He who sent down upon you the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only Allah and those firmly rooted in knowledge. say; 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

NOTE: from the translation, i have removed full stop after "Allah" and placed it after "knowledge"
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Post by zznoor »

Allow me to post from Tafseer Ibn Katheer
http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/

3:07
Tafseer Ibn Katheer


Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone. And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa. This is why Allah said,

(They are the foundations of the Book), meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted,

(And others not entirely clear) as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.

The Muhkamat are the Ayat that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented. As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.

Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on,

(In it are verses that are entirely clear) as "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.'' He also said, "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''

Therefore, Allah said,

(So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation) meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood,

(they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof) meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings. As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people. This is why Allah said,

(seeking Al-Fitnah) meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them. For instance, Christians might claim that ﴿`Isa is divine because﴾ the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,

(He ﴿`Isa﴾ was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.) ﴿43:59﴾, and,

(Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was.) ﴿3:59﴾.

There are other Ayat that clearly assert that `Isa is but one of Allah's creatures and that he is the servant and Messenger of Allah, among other Messengers.

Allah's statement,

(And seeking for its Ta'wil,) to alter them as they desire. Imam Ahmad recorded that `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah recited,

(It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear,), until,

(Men of understanding) and he said,

(When you see those who argue in it (using the Mutashabihat), then they are those whom Allah meant. Therefore, beware of them.)''

Al-Bukhari recorded a similar Hadith in the Tafsir of this Ayah ﴿3:7﴾, as did Muslim in the book of Qadar (the Divine Will) in his Sahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan, from `A'ishah; "The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah,

(It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear,) until,

(And none receive admonition except men of understanding.)/

He then said,

(When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Qur'an, then they are those whom Allah described, so beware of them.)''

This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari.
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Post by zznoor »

Md. Asad

Asad

3:7 (Asad) He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. [5] Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ [6] which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, [7] and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. [8] Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight

Note 5 (Quran Ref: 3:7 )
The above passage may be regarded as a key to the understanding of the Qur'an. Tabari identifies the ayat muhkamat ("messages that are clear in and by themselves") with what the philologists and jurists describe as nass - namely, ordinances or statements which are self-evident (zahir) by virtue of their wording (cf. Lisan at-'Arab, art. nass). Consequently, Tabari regards as ayat muhkamat only those statements or ordinances of the Qur'an which do not admit of more than one interpretation (which does not, of course, preclude differences of opinion regarding the implications of a particular ayah muhkamah). In my opinion, however, it would be too dogmatic to regard any passage of the Qur'an which does not conform to the above definition as mutashabih ("allegorical"): for there are many statements in the Qur'an which are liable to more than one interpretation but are, nevertheless, not allegorical - just as there are many expressions and passages which, despite their allegorical formulation, reveal to the searching intellect only one possible meaning. For this reason, the ayat mutashabihat may be defined as those passages of the Qur'an which are expressed in a figurative manner, with a meaning that is metaphorically implied but not directly, in so many words, stated. The ayat muhkamat are described as the "essence of the divine writ" (umm al-kitab) because they comprise the fundamental principles underlying its message and, in particular, its ethical and social teachings: and it is only on the basis of these clearly enunciated principles that the allegorical passages can be correctly interpreted. (For a more detailed discussion of symbolism and allegory in the Qur'an. see Appendix 1.)(Quran Ref: 3:7 )


Note 6 (Quran Ref: 3:7 )
Lit., "that of it".(Quran Ref: 3:7 )

Note 7 (Quran Ref: 3:7 )
The "confusion" referred to here is a consequence of interpreting allegorical passages in an "arbitrary manner" (Zamakhshari).

Note 8 (Quran Ref: 3:7 )
According to most of the early commentators, this refers to the interpretation of allegorical passages which deal with metaphysical subjects - for instance, God's attributes, the ultimate meaning of time and eternity, the resurrection of the dead, the Day of Judgment, paradise and hell, the nature of the beings or forces described as angels, and so forth - all of which fall within the category of al-ghayb, i.e., that sector of reality which is beyond the reach of human perception and imagination and cannot, therefore, be conveyed to man in other than allegorical terms. This view of the classical commentators, however, does not seem to take into account the many Qur'anic passages which do not deal with metaphysical subjects and yet are, undoubtedly, allegorical in intent and expression. To my mind, one cannot arrive at a correct understanding of the above passage without paying due attention to the nature and function of allegory as such. A true allegory - in contrast with a mere pictorial paraphrase of something that could equally well be stated in direct terms - is always meant to express in a figurative manner something which, because of its complexity, cannot be adequately expressed in direct terms or propositions and, because of this very complexity, can be grasped only intuitively, as a general mental image, and not as a series of detailed "statements": and this seems to be the meaning of the phrase, "none save God knows its final meaning".(Quran Ref: 3:7 )
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Post by a_27826 »

According to 003:007, In the Book sent down to the Prophet, it has

1. Clear verses, which can have one interpretation only.

2. Ambiguous verses, which can have more than one interpretation.

(a) Those whose heart is swerving and desiring dissension will try to seek interpretation of the ambiguous verses.

(b) But only Allah and Those firmly rooted in knowledge know the interpretation of the ambiguous verses.

So who is “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” in the present time? A fallible sunni alim of your choice? A fallible twelver marja of your choice?
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Post by zznoor »

So who is “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” in the present time? A fallible sunni alim of your choice? A fallible twelver marja of your choice?
Infallible Hazir Imam is also there and he may furnish his tafseer if he wishes.[/quote]
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Post by zznoor »

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:7]

As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed.

Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them.

The mutashabihat are the verses which have been composed in subtle and profound diction and style. They carry implications other than the literal meanings, and therefore, are capable of giving different significations, like "The hand of Allah is on their hands" in verse 10 of al Fat-h. Verse 1 of al Hud says that the Quran is a book of clear and decisive verses. Verse 23 of al Zumar says that Allah has sent down the very best discourse as a book conformable in its repetition and consimilarity. Only the men of understanding who possess a higher level of intelligence contemplate and find out the meaningful implications of such verses. Average and ordinary minds cannot figure out or have knowledge of the real purport of such verses, and if they try this on their own, they are bewildered and go astray. As mentioned in the commentary of verse 1 of al Baqarah, the huruf muqatta-at are also meaningful but their subtle and profound meanings are known to Allah and His chosen representatives (Muhammad and ali Muhammad) only. Therefore, those who know the true purport of these symbolic letters occupy the highest position in the domain of knowledge and wisdom. In the well-known tradition of thaqalayn the Holy Prophet has clearly made known the fact that whoso remains attached with the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt, after his departure from this world, will never go astray, because these two weighty authorities will never be separated from each other, and joined together, they shall meet the Holy Prophet at the spring of Kawthar; and "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate", said the Holy Prophet in order to guide the faithfuls so that, to have knowledge of the Quran, they must refer to Ali and his Ahl ul Bayt, who alone know the true meanings of the mutashabihat.

Zaygh means disease, perversity, evil, and wicked intention, the inclination to go against the truth and to blunder, revolt and go astray. Fitna means to create mischief, or to create difference of opinion and to mislead.

"None knows its interpretation except Allah and those (who are) firmly rooted in knowledge", renders null and void all attempts made by scholars to discover the true meanings of the mutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are those whom Allah Himself gives the knowledge, as verse 49 of al Ankabut says: But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge. Therefore, the observation of the Ahmadi commentator that reading various passages in the light of each discover the true significance of ambiguous passages, is based upon his inclination to go out of the right course. The Christians also try in vain to assign divinity to Isa by calculating the numerical value of the haruf muqatta-at, and misinterpret the complex verses to suit their dubious theories.

How the complex verses can be interpreted is not mentioned in this verse, nor anywhere in the Quran, but it is clearly disclosed that besides Allah only those, endowed with divine knowledge, know the true meanings of the mutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, the thoroughly purified ones (Ahzab: 33), who possess the desired purity of heart and soul, essential for receiving and holding the truth in order to use it (Waqi-ah: 77 to 79) to do good to themselves and to others. It is obvious that there is no conceivable necessity of revealing complex verses or letter symbols if even the Holy Prophet, to whom the Quran was revealed, did not know their meanings. It is only a hypothetical inquiry, otherwise there is the clear mention of rasikhuna fil ilm (the firmly rooted in knowledge) in this verse, the first among whom is the Holy Prophet, and after him, as said earlier, his Ahlul Bayt are the custodians of his knowledge and wisdom, who alone are entitled to interpret every word of the Quran.

In reply to Anas bin Malik's query about rasikhuna fil ilm the Holy Prophet said:

"They are those whose hands do not do aught but that which is just, righteous and good; whose tongues do not utter aught but that which is true; whose hearts and minds are enlightened and rational; whose stomachs are free from that which is forbidden."

The ayah al tat-hir (Ahzab: 33) confirms that only the thoroughly purified Muhammad and ali Muhammad are the rasikhuna fil ilm. Verse 13 of Luqman says that polytheism (shirk) is the most grievous inequity, the worst type of impurity. It is a historical fact that all the companions of the Holy Prophet, before embracing Islam, for a long time in their lives, were idolworshippers. The Holy Prophet, Bibi Fatimah and Ali ibna abi Talib and their children were the only ones who were free from the impurity of polytheism right from the day they were born. All Muslims, in every age, add karamallahu wajhu (Allah graced and honoured his face above others) after the name of Ali, because he never worshipped any ghayrallah (other than Allah). The Holy Prophet pointed out the essential purity of body and soul in Ali, equal to his own purity, when he said:

"O Ali! Your flesh is my flesh, your blood is my blood. You and I are from one and the same divine light"

Verses 18 of Ali Imran, 162 of al Nisa, 49 of Ankabut, and 11 of al Mujadalah refer to those who have been divinely endowed with knowledge.

As ordinary human beings are unable to know the meanings of the mutashabihat, the divine mercy guides the sincere seekers of the truth to turn to the ahladh dhikr, the Holy Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt (see commentary of verse 43 of al Nahl and verse 7 of al Anbiya):

"So ask the people of dhikr (the reminder or the Quran) if you do not know."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Nothing in the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah, the self-subsisting, because He is the author of the book of creation (the development of the embryo has been mentioned in the previous verse as an example). In this verse He says that the author of the book of creation is also the author of the book of legislation (the Quran).
The book of creation (the universe) contains miscellaneous signs. Some are clear. Some are intricate and perplexing. For example (in the book of creation) the function and the significance of every part of the human structure has been studied and defined except the "appendix". Now a rational student of the book of creation will say:

"As no part is without some significance, this also must have some meaning, though I have not yet understood it."

On the contrary a mischief-maker will mix up that which is known with that which is not known and deny both by saying:

"As no reason or significance is found in this part, therefore, there is no reason or significance in the whole."

Likewise in the book of legislation, some signs (verses) are clear and decisive (muhkam), and some have several possible meanings (mutashabih), therefore, the rational mind will try to understand the mutashabih (unclear) verses in the light of the muhkam (clear and decisive) verses, by proceeding from the known to the unknown or from the concrete to the abstract; but the perverse mind will judge that which is certainly precise and definite in the light of the complex so as to mislead people by dubious misinterpretations.

Verse 1 of al Hud says that all the verses of the book are well arranged and firmly established. The arrangement of the words in the verses and the verses in the surahs is so accurate and proper that they all form a consistent unity, though they were separately revealed. It implies that the Quran was already arranged and established before its revelation, which is confirmed by verse 105 of Bani Israil. In verse 23 of al Zumar, the book is presented as consistent, consimilar and conformable in its parts (mutashabihan). But in this verse mutashabihat refers to the meanings, the implications, the connotations and the denotations of the complex passages.

Muhtam (clear) and mutashabih (complex) are relative terms. What is unclear to some may be apparent and definite to others. There may be quite a few features and viewpoints inherent in certain ideas, or commands, or narrations. Studying them from a particular angle will make their meaning and purpose crystal clear but their clarity may turn into obscurity when they are viewed from another standpoint. At all events, the complex should be examined and interpreted in the light of that which is clear and decisive, or as explained by the Holy Prophet, or by those whose authority has been established by the Holy Prophet and the Quran (see pages 1 to 7, commentary of verses 6 and 7 of al Fatihah, and verses 2, 30 to 37 and 124 of al Baqarah). In the light of verses 16 to 19 of al Qiyamah, the divine agency collects, recites and interprets the Quran. As the book is a guidance for mankind, there should be no unintelligible or incomprehensible passage in it. There is none. As asserted by the Ahlul Bayt, rasikhuna fil ilm is conjuncted with Allah and yaquluna is an adverbial clause qualifying the state of knowledge, referring to rasikhun. In the Nahj al Balagha, Ali ibna abi Talib says that the rasikhuna fil ilm believe in the unknown in the light of the known. As explained in the commentary of verse 3 of al Baqarah the knowledge of the ghayb (unknown) is with the infinite, therefore, the awareness of the finite created beings, even if they are endowed with the divine insight, cannot be at par with the absolute wisdom of the ghayb ul mutlaq, the hayyul qayyum creator. All that which becomes (in obedience) effective, as soon as He wills, is knowable to man. A finite being can know as much as the infinite all-wise likes him to know and grow in knowledge, which implies that basically his knowledge was insufficient but he rises towards the level of perfection, with the help of divine endowment, on his own merits, to become aware of the meanings of all that which has been revealed in the book, because, if it is not so, such revelations (mutashabihat) would be unprofitable and frustrating. So what Imam Ali ibna abi Talib and Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir have said in this connection is true.


From
http://quran.al-islam.org/
a_27826
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Post by a_27826 »

zznoor wrote:
So who is “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” in the present time? A fallible sunni alim of your choice? A fallible twelver marja of your choice?
Infallible Hazir Imam is also there and he may furnish his tafseer if he wishes.
[/quote]

Thanx for the Pooya/Ali Commentary for 003:007

What I meant by my question was;

Who would you (as a non Ismaili) include among “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” ?

NOTE: According to 003:007, “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” are not "searching" for the inner meaning but they already know it and are excluded from those with "whose hearts is swerving".
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Post by zznoor »

a_27826 wrote:
zznoor wrote:
So who is “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” in the present time? A fallible sunni alim of your choice? A fallible twelver marja of your choice?
Infallible Hazir Imam is also there and he may furnish his tafseer if he wishes.
Thanx for the Pooya/Ali Commentary for 003:007

What I meant by my question was;

Who would you (as a non Ismaili) include among “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” ?

NOTE: According to 003:007, “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” are not "searching" for the inner meaning but they already know it and are excluded from those with "whose hearts is swerving".

I do not know anybody who will fit description of “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge”, neither I am going to run door to door in search of such person. I am posting comment 6 &7 of Maudidi's translation of 3:7. His advice is not to get confused about 'Ambiguous' verses of Quran but concentrate on "clear and lucid 'core' verses of the Qur'an". And I agree.

From: http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem. ... rse=1&to=9
;6. 'Ambiguous' verses are those whose meaning may have some degree of equivocation. It is obvious that no way of life can be prescribed for man unless a certain amount of knowledge explaining the truth about the universe, about its origin and end, about man's position in it and other matters of similar importance, is intimated to him. It is also evident that the truths which lie beyond the range of human perception have always eluded and will continue to elude man; no words exist in the human vocabulary which either express or portray them. In speaking about such things, we necessarily resort to words and expressions generally employed in connection with tangible objects. In the Qur'an, too, this kind of language is employed in relation to supernatural matters; the verses which have been characterized as 'ambiguous' refer to such matters.

At best, such expressions may serve to either bring man close to or enable him to formulate some view of reality, even if it is a faint one. The more one tries to determine the precise meaning of such verses, the more their ambiguities proliferate, and the more one is confronted with choosing between several plausible interpretations. All this is likely to alienate one progressively further away' from the Truth instead of bringing one closer to it. Those who seek the Truth and do not hanker after the satisfaction of their egocentric quest for exotic superfluities, will be satisfied with the dim vision of reality derived from these verses. They will concentrate their attention instead on the clear and lucid 'core' verses of the Qur'an. It will be left to those who are either out to make mischief and mislead people or who have an abnormal passion for superfluities to devote their attention to hair-splitting discussions about the contents of the 'ambiguous" verses.

7. This might give rise to an unnecessary problem: How can people believe in 'ambiguous' verses when the contents of these cannot be grasped?

The fact is that a reasonable person will believe that the Qur'an is the Book of God through his reading of its clear and lucid verses, rather than by learning fanciful interpretations of the ambiguous verses. Once so convinced, he is not likely to be worried by doubts and anxieties caused by the ambiguities of the verses concerned. One who seeks the Truth is satisfied with the obvious meaning of these verses, and wherever he encounters complications and ambiguities he abstains from pursuing their solution too far. Instead of wasting his time splitting hairs, he is content to believe in the things laid down in the Book of God, without seeking to know them precisely and in detail. He turns his attention, in the main, to questions of a practical nature.
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Post by a_27826 »

zznoor wrote:
a_27826 wrote:
zznoor wrote: Infallible Hazir Imam is also there and he may furnish his tafseer if he wishes.
Thanx for the Pooya/Ali Commentary for 003:007

What I meant by my question was;

Who would you (as a non Ismaili) include among “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” ?

NOTE: According to 003:007, “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” are not "searching" for the inner meaning but they already know it and are excluded from those with "whose hearts is swerving".

I do not know anybody who will fit description of “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge”, neither I am going to run door to door in search of such person. I am posting comment 6 &7 of Maudidi's translation of 3:7. His advice is not to get confused about 'Ambiguous' verses of Quran but concentrate on "clear and lucid 'core' verses of the Qur'an". And I agree.
Are you implying one should ignore some verses (the ambiguous ones) and concentrate on clear verses?

Then why would Allah want to send ambiguous verses to mankind for the mankind to ignore them simply because only Allah and “The Firmly Rooted in Knowledge” know their interpretations?

BTY, how would you know which verses of the Quran are ambiguous and which are clear? The Quran is silent on this.
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Post by zznoor »

Here is interesting thing about "rasikhna fi ilm"

From: http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa ... nguageId=2
And those who are firmly rooted in knowledge (rasikhna fi ilm)…[Sahl] said:It was reported from Ali RA that he stated, ‘[Those rooted in knowledge] are the ones whom knowledge has protected from plunging [into the interpretation of the Quran] according to some whim (hawā) or with set arguments (ḥujaj maḍrūba) without [awareness of] the unseen [mysteries] (ghuyb).’ [This is] due to God’s guidance of them, and His disclosing to them Hiis unseen secrets from within the treasure chests of knowledge. Thus they said, We believe in the Book; all of it is from our Lord [3:7]. So God, Exalted is He, acknowledged them [in this verse], and made them among the people of profound and far-reaching knowledge, as an increase granted to them from Him. Just as God has said, Exalted is He, But say: ‘O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge [20:114]’.Sahl also said:God, Blessed and Exalted is He, showed those who are firmly rooted in knowledge to be exceptionalbecause of their saying all of it is from our Lord [3:7], by which they mean, the abrogating and the abrogated, the clear and the ambiguous. They are the ones who reveal three [ways of] knowing (ʿulūm), since those who know (ʿulamāʾ) may be [designated in] three [ways], namely: those [whose knowledge derives from] the divine lordliness (rabbāniyyūn), those [whose knowledge derives from] the divine light (nurāniyyūn); and those [whose knowledge derives from] the divine essence’ (dhātiyyūn). [Those firmly rooted in knowledge reveal] in addition four [other kinds] of knowledge: revelation (wahy), theophany (tajally), knowledge directly bestowed by God (ʿindīt) and knowledge from the divine presence (ladunnī), just as God has said, to whom We had given mercy from Us and We had taught him knowledge from Us [18:65], [and when He said], Yet none remembers but the people of inner substance [2:269], that is, none reflects save the people of understanding (fahm) and intellect (ʿuqūl), who say:(continue reading 3:8)
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:


I got got a copy of a rare farman from a devoted scholar. It is a farman made by Imam Aga Ali Shah(47th Imam).I got it in gujarati writing.

" Je Dua tame pado cho tema Ali Allah bolya ane Hazar Imam nu Naam lo cho,te Hazar Imam hu chu ane ane Ali Allah kahecho te Ali thi Allah ane Allah EJ ALI che.To pachi hu sijda kone karu?Ane hu sajdo karu to maro shu Faydo Thayee?

For the faithful Ismailis the Farmans of our Imams is an absolute ordinance,come what may.

A general quiz question:

In a apartment complex which is beautifully lighted by sun light during
the day and by sun powered solar energy batteries during the night. Would the resident of the apartment buy from a unknown witch type seller an antique candles,which may be poisoned or give out poisonous fumes.
Answer in one word: YES OR NO.
Will the happy resident buy the candles?

ALI ME IMAAN LAU AUR APNI PANOTI DUR KARO.
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Post by ismaili103 »

NO
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:


I got got a copy of a rare farman from a devoted scholar. It is a farman made by Imam Aga Ali Shah(47th Imam).I got it in gujarati writing.

" Je Dua tame pado cho tema Ali Allah bolya ane Hazar Imam nu Naam lo cho,te Hazar Imam hu chu ane ane Ali Allah kahecho te Ali thi Allah ane Allah EJ ALI che.To pachi hu sijda kone karu?Ane hu sajdo karu to maro shu Faydo Thayee?

For the faithful Ismailis the Farmans of our Imams is an absolute ordinance,come what may.

A general quiz question:

In a apartment complex which is beautifully lighted by sun light during
the day and by sun powered solar energy batteries during the night. Would the resident of the apartment buy from a unknown witch type seller an antique candles,which may be poisoned or give out poisonous fumes.
Answer in one word: YES OR NO.
Will the happy resident buy the candles?

ALI ME IMAAN LAU AUR APNI PANOTI DUR KARO.
Just curious - is there a date?...not challenging the authenticity but would nice to have a date.

Shams
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