"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:48 pm

a_27826 wrote:
In Asad's own translation, there is twice ""Now there has come unto you", then i wonder how did he conclude that " the term al-kitab may suitably be rendered here as "the Bible""

but i must be missing something because Asad is eminent translator and commentator.
Aya is addressed to either Christians or Jews
Since later Aya is addressed to Jews then this Aya is surely addressed to Christians and their holy book is Bible

Do you get it!!!

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:14 pm

To Zznoor:
Ya Ali Madad ( response if any to this salutation should be Moula ALI Madad )

You come from a great cool city with Ivy Leguae and famous Sharatis

To your statement of which Islam is better?
If you objectively observe with open heart and mind with no prejudice.
if you observe that vast majority of Shariati (a sect/Firqa look lost and looked upon as DISASTER to human community at large n to their own womenfolks.(it seem to like that grace of God is not with them maybe) .and also Ismailis sect/Firqa.
who are with the Imam of the time.(it look like that Grace of god is over them and surely holding hand of each one of them.)
Shariat is like shoving a 1400 years old battery in new gadgets of today.
I wish some Haqiqati Momin expand this statement,Be BOLD if need be I will back you up.
YAAD RAKHO JUNGLE MEE SHER RAJ KARTE HAI,KUTTA AUR BILLI NAHI.

As for my Invitation ,It was out of my heart and very very pleased that you
to accept it,I respect your truth and desire.(your motive has question mark)
A non Ismaili is not allowed in our Jamaat khanas during prayers.
If you Really wish with to become an Ismaili,there are formal channel which
Admin may guide you.
If you have very strong desire to adopt Ismailism in private and not formally,
you have speaking to the right person,I can help n assist you with private email thru this website.Let me assure you will so Blessed to know what is Baatin and what is' Rote' learning from cooked up books interpreted by Quacks in the first place.
YOU WILL VALUE N FOLLOW WHAT YOUR HEART SAYS RATHER THAN WHAT YOUR MIND REMEMBERS OUT OF A WRITING IN A BOOK.
GOD BLESS YOU IN PROGRESSING YOUR SOUL.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu May 30, 2013 8:23 pm

Wa alaykum salaam

Which Islam is better?

Islam of Muhammad SAW

Post by **Admin** » Thu May 30, 2013 10:03 pm

Since the Quran was compilled after the death of the holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) which is the Book in the expression People of the Book, certainely the expression is not People of the Quran nor is it people of the bookssssss

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:26 am

Enemies of Islam including some Muslims fell for canard of compilation Quran in written form so they can use it to change the Deen of Allah as shown to us by our Prophet. There were few hundred Hufaza including Hz Ali and Hz Abbas. They knew Quran by heart and never objected to compiled Quran.

This is useless debate.

Wa alaykum salaam

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:12 pm

I request you all to please stay on the topic

Sister zznoor I have asked you in my previous post where you said

zznoor said :

shariati has no concept that Allah's noor reside only in one Muslim person

Sister if I may ask you, are all prophet's/ messenger's related to each other ??

Post by **Admin** » Fri May 31, 2013 3:16 pm

zznoor wrote:Enemies of Islam including some Muslims fell for canard of compilation Quran in written form so they can use it to change the Deen of Allah as shown to us by our Prophet. There were few hundred Hufaza including Hz Ali and Hz Abbas. They knew Quran by heart and never objected to compiled Quran.

This is useless debate.

Wa alaykum salaam

There is no useless debate. Though it is true that the debate on that matter is ongoing since centuries and we are not going to solve it here. The weak people among Islam always try to avoid the debate on the compilation of the Quran. Onbviously they can not change the fact that the compilation periode was full of contestation and many versions existed which were later burned down. They can not change the fact that the Prophet never compilled the Quran nor can they explain why Allah said that He perfected Islam at a time when Osman's version of the Quran did not exist nor was essential for the perfection of Islam.

Hiding and running from the debate leads nowhere. Extremism blossom where people are been deprived from their freedom to think, like Wahabis all over the world are trying to do to the Muslim World, weakening it instead of strenghtening it.

Then the same people shout "Allah hu Akbar," killing those Muslim who debate on the compilation of the Quran and such other topics which they consider as detrimental to them.

The decision to compile was taken after 400 of those Hufaza died at the battle of Yamama and some people felt the Quran will disappear soon and they felt Allah was not capable to protecting his own message so they started compiling and disputing on whose compilation and recollection was more accurate. Sad part of Islamic history.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri May 31, 2013 4:56 pm

As per virani
This debate on Quran does not belong to this thread
I believe there is multi page discussion on " is Quran complete" on this site.
Nothing has been resolved except to insults to majority. I say any body who possesses different version of Quran, let him produce it. Stop speculating.

Br Shiraz
Open up proper thread, I will respond, Inshah Allah

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri May 31, 2013 5:06 pm

Dear Admin Brother

Only person who knows uncorrupted Quran is His holiness Hazir Imam.

He is only one who claims to posses Allah's noor and his followers claim he is Bolta Quran.

It is about time he spoke up end end this ugly controversy.

Post by **Admin** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:07 pm

He has already spoken, there are numerous Farmans in this regards by various Imams and there is no lack of research. You do not ask Imam is it is necessary to breath when is is that clear a matter. it may not be clear for you but it is for those Ismailis who have read the Farmans on the matter.

You are free to do your own research. Religion is Search, at least as far as I am concerned, I know that is not for the majority. Personal Search is fundamental in many Tariqas of Islam. Is in not generaly part of Sunni Islam.

We do not believe in rigidity. Our Prophet said no compulsion in religion, we follow the teaching of our Prophet (PBUH). We have been given an elevator, we are not going to take the stairs. But if you need to shed some weight, I would certainly suggest you to take the stairs, both are going to the same floor

We respect those who want to take the stairs, it is their choice. let them respect our choice to take the elevator. We are after all very impatient, at least this is what Allah said in the Quran.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:13 pm

Sister zznoor and admin if all you wanna do is fight then you might as well exchange you email address and do so. Just stop deviating from the current topic.

Admin bhai, Hazar Imam may or may not have to be the role model for ismailis but you being an Admin of this forum should be the role model for those who post their input. Often times you get personal which is not good. I request you two to restrain yourselves.

Sister zznoor the question that I have asked you is related to the current topic....this is the 3rd time Im repeating my question and I hope I would get a positive response this time.

zznoor said :

shariati has no concept that Allah's noor reside only in one Muslim person

To which I would like to ask you Are all prophet's/ messenger's related to each other ??

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:00 pm

To which I would like to ask you Are all prophet's/ messenger's related to each other ??

I cannot answer in this thread, I am sorry, find other thread

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:12 pm

To zznoor: Ya ali madad.
So you wish to stick with the disaster sect of Islam.
I feel you would be better off by attending the Shariati mosque made famous recently in your city by your Shariati brothers in belief.

For us Ismailis the acts and obligation of Shairat as refined and ordained by our Imams from time to time is Tariqa,this is what we follow and also the Baatin aspect of the Faith.
Personally for me all medieval Shariati words n phrases are nothing but JUNK.
Your input is limited to level,in which we are out of and all the Zahiri read material from cooked up book of the quack,which is no use to any
It may amuse some bloggers who like to pass their time on the net n debate with their own reading and analysis and inputs as their reply.
you may be feeling frustrated as I closely observed to push your stinking candle light continuously on this site.

You do not follow the smallest Iota of True Islam.rather you are gravely stuck in the Sunnat of Usman.
The compilation Of Koran was manipulated from the word 'GO'.
We do not wish or need our Imam to tell openly, Even an inspired Sufi can sniff those pages out.That will also happen.It is not happening because sensitivity and the sentiments of the majority unfortunate ones.
To understand the Koran ,one must read the interpretation of of great Sufis of their understanding of the words and Ayats.
namely the work of Shams Tabriz,Moulani Rumi and Dai Nasir Khusrow.
as a matter of fact such was the beautiful understanding of Islam,that
Imam SMS on Masnavi of Rumi,he went on on to say it is like Koran
in Farsi language. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MANIPULATED.
you should be ,where your garbage is acknowledged ,the level has been told to many many time.
Medieval age Shairat is DEGRADING for us,as we start at Tariqat level
and moving towards Haqiqat and Marifat Level.
So what's the call you are taking?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:21 am

Admin

I find above post offending and brother is trying to offend almost all ummah. Majority of Muslim on this Dunia including Shia believe in Shariat of Salat, Swam, Zakat and Hujj.

Majority of Shia read and try to understand same Quran which is mislabeled as Usman's Quran. Some harbor thought of 'tahrif'.

Brother should Google 'Shia view of the Quran' and add or edit where he has dispute.

There is no need to spill venom on this site or anywhere else.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:54 pm

To zznoor: Ya ali madad.
So you wish to stick with the disaster sect of Islam.
I feel you would be better off by attending the Shariati mosque made famous recently in your city by your Shariati brothers in belief.

So you're a judge now who'll judge which sect is the disaster and which one isn't ??

You follow only what you see or is shown by the main stream media. If only you knew that our media works hand in hand with the govt. I dont wanna go into much detail but please google the whole incident and decide by yourself as to who did what.

For us Ismailis the acts and obligation of Shairat as refined and ordained by our Imams from time to time is Tariqa,this is what we follow and also the Baatin aspect of the Faith.

So you're saying we do follow shariat but our shariat is different then that of aam muslims....kindly explain how and why ??

Personally for me all medieval Shariati words n phrases are nothing but JUNK.

Then why do shah jo deedar, hai zinda, tobo tobo etc etc ???....if these are not physical [shariati] exercises what are they ???

Your input is limited to level,in which we are out of and all the Zahiri read material from cooked up book of the quack,which is no use to any
It may amuse some bloggers who like to pass their time on the net n debate with their own reading and analysis and inputs as their reply.
you may be feeling frustrated as I closely observed to push your stinking candle light continuously on this site.

Really, then open our dua book and read the tarjumah...In the tarjumah read the name and number of an aayat and match it with so called usman's quran....then come back here and tell us whether all the surahs of ismaili dua matches that of the surah of usman's quran.

You do not follow the smallest Iota of True Islam.rather you are gravely stuck in the Sunnat of Usman.

Right !!...So now you're back to your usual job, judging people without even understanding the true essence or the meaning of word ISLAM

The compilation Of Koran was manipulated from the word 'GO'.
We do not wish or need our Imam to tell openly, Even an inspired Sufi can sniff those pages out.That will also happen.It is not happening because sensitivity and the sentiments of the majority unfortunate ones.
To understand the Koran ,one must read the interpretation of of great Sufis of their understanding of the words and Ayats.

Ill just wait for your reply on the verses that we recite in our dua...I'll wait for you to match the aayats of our dua with the aayats of usmans quran and then we'll proceed what MHI has to say and all your excuses.

namely the work of Shams Tabriz,Moulani Rumi and Dai Nasir Khusrow. As a matter of fact such was the beautiful understanding of Islam,that
Imam SMS on Masnavi of Rumi,he went on on to say it is like Koran
in Farsi language. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MANIPULATED.
you should be ,where your garbage is acknowledged ,the level has been told to many many time.

Yep the same garbage[as per you] recited in our holy dua

Medieval age Shairat is DEGRADING for us,as we start at Tariqat level
and moving towards Haqiqat and Marifat Level.
So what's the call you are taking?

So in your own words you're a haqiqati momin but you still practice shariat [exercise] in your dua, kindly explain ??

If you have already moved onto the 3rd stage then why practice the 1st step in all our prayers ?? [Be it dua,mijalis,maiyyat etc etc]

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:55 pm

zznoor wrote:Dear Admin Brother

Only person who knows uncorrupted Quran is His holiness Hazir Imam.

He is only one who claims to posses Allah's noor and his followers claim he is Bolta Quran.

It is about time he spoke up end end this ugly controversy.

Now if one is asking entire Quran (Essence of the Book) from the Hazar Imam, then can he handle it?

059:021 If We had sent down this Koran upon a mountain, you would have seen it humbled, split asunder out of the fear of God. And those similitudes -- We strike them for men; haply they will reflect.

So please reflect.

Complete Quran can’t be simply a book compiled from scattered fragments of written verses on palm branches, flat stones, and shoulder blades and verses merely in the people’s memory.
These are divine words of Allah which can’t be exhausted.

018:109 Say:. 'If the sea were ink for the Words of my Lord, the sea would be spent before the Words of my Lord are spent, even if We brought replenishment the like of it.'

031:027 Though all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea-seven seas after it to replenish it, yet would the Words of God not be spent. God is All-mighty, All-wise.

The complete Quran is with Imam of the Time who inherited the knowledge from his predecessor, and so on. It’s a holy linage.

003:033-034 Allah chose Adam and Noah and the House of Abraham and the House of Imran above all beings, the seed of one another; God hears, and knows.

Have you ever wondered why Quran was not in a book form during the lifetime of the Prophet?

We can speculate many reasons like

1. The revelation of Quran continued to the last year of the Prophet’s life. So nobody was able to compile it as a book during the Prophet's life, since it was not complete.

2. Prophet himself did not know when the revelation of Quran is going to finish. So he never put it in the book form. This challenges the infallibility of the Prophet.

3. The Quran (from the root word "Qirat" which means recitation) was never supposed to be in book form but rather in “recitation” form. So the Prophet gave the Quran in the form of recitation.

4. The Prophet, who was the Authority of the Time, had the complete Quran (Essence of the Book) but revealed part of it as per time and circumstances for about 23 years.

043:004 and behold, it is in the Essence of the Book, with Us; sublime indeed, wise.

002:002 That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the god-fearing.

The “Uthmani Mushaf” which we have now didn’t exist during the lifetime of the Prophet nor there was any need for it as the Prophet himself was “Quran-e- Natiq” during his lifetime.

But “Uthmani Mushaf” does contain part of the “Essence of the Book” and deserves to be revered.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:17 pm

Dear Admin Brother

Only person who knows uncorrupted Quran is His holiness Hazir Imam.

He is only one who claims to posses Allah's noor and his followers claim he is Bolta Quran.

It is about time he spoke up end end this ugly controversy.

1st of all please go through what a_27826 has written @ above, Very very beautifully explained by a_27826.

Sister lemme tell you something, words are not the only source to convey your message.

If you look at the work of AKDN, our imam has invested his life in upliftment of not just ismailis but our ummah as and whole.

His work is an example of what he is and what he intends to do. He has accomplished things that would take generations after generations to achieve.

Sister in today's world even if H.Isa[as] comes and reveals himself people would tell him to go get his head examined. If Imam mahdi[as] reappears from his daur e satr and tells all shia's to follow him...Majority of our shia brothers would just laugh it out. Thankfully ismailis do not have to face similar problem because the rope of imamat or the flame of imamat has always guided ismailis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w7Du8qZyI4

Anyways all I wanna say is Imamat is the highest office ever known to mankind and there is only one family who are the rightful bearers of that office ...Right from H.Adam[as] till Shah Karim Al hussaini who currently holds that office.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:09 pm

\move the discussion on Quran to the other thread and keep this thread for Asal Dual thread.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:01 pm

To mr Shiraz:

All acts and obligations of our Shia Imami Ismaili Faith is called our Tariqa(the way).
it may have certain word form Khoja traditions.
I am not well read.I do not honestly know if the word Shariat is mentioned in our Ismaili constitution.
I am sure we have no such Shariati board existing in our Jamaat.
As for the holy book, if there is even 1 % distortion.It can be called manipulated in legal parlance.
As this topic is of Haqaqiti conviction n proclamation of ALI Allah.
Many Ismailis are Tariqat level and obey and follow Imam as Tariqat level.
the next level knowing n seeing hin as GOD is a blessing coming out of
understanding his Fsarmans at baatin level(esoteric). or of the Pirs.
you personally are amused on the Haqiqati conviction.(it not your fault,it your blessed status)
It's does happen or comes easily.there many cycles on birth for that.
you are trying to use your cleverness in putting foward your wicked Agenda.
If an entity attend any Gala Ball Dinner, you construct a line that Entity is partying away to glory.
For many time a haqiqati conviction statements.you cleverly,put the Zahiri observation of Imam praying our fasting as a person ,you are right at Zahiri level,which is one side of our tariqa not searching or meditating to be blessed to move beyond Tariqa.
A small example a person says 'sweet coconut water in totality
A clever n wicked person who want to degrade it's sweetness say "so you are drinking water' because you used that word to prove his/her shallowness.
Many knows what you are upto.
Cleverness struggles before Intelligence.
I have observed your earlier postings as pure Khoja Ishnasari conviction,may be a real change of heart or strategy.
you are using the word Hazar Imam,My personal opinion you have scant respect for him Inspite if any, you are at Tariqat level?
I stay put on all the statements made by me.I do not change my intention or strategy.
There are grey and black sheeps within us Ismailis using this webiste to foward their agenda.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:16 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
Really, then open our dua book and read the tarjumah...In the tarjumah read the name and number of an aayat and match it with so called usman's quran....then come back here and tell us whether all the surahs of ismaili dua matches that of the surah of usman's quran.

just a note to the above comment.

1. The Qur'an does not have verse numberings.

2. The verse numberings are not part of the Quran.

3. The verse numberings are done by translators.

4. The verse numbering do sometimes differ from different translators.

5. The verse numbering in Sher Ali’s translation differs by one (the 'Bismillahs' are counted as a verse no 1, while most others count as 0)

6. The translations by A.J. Arberry and E.H. Palmer are in prose form and have no verse numbering (they have tried to maintain the “originality” of the Quran. Even their translations have less interpretations hence its less “user-friendly” for readers)

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:48 pm

1. The Qur'an does not have verse numberings.

2. The verse numberings are not part of the Quran.

3. The verse numberings are done by translators.

4. The verse numbering do sometimes differ from different translators.

5. The verse numbering in Sher Ali’s translation differs by one (the 'Bismillahs' are counted as a verse no 1, while most others count as 0)

6. The translations by A.J. Arberry and E.H. Palmer are in prose form and have no verse numbering (they have tried to maintain the “originality” of the Quran. Even their translations have less interpretations hence its less “user-friendly” for readers)

Brother, you're missing the whole point here....If we are to agree with whatever you have said and if quran does not have verse system then why is it that our dua books have the very same surah and aayat number as that of so called usmans book.

Naming and numbering surah's or aayat's is for our own good is it not ?? Like if every other person on this planet is called NUSERI how would a person know which nuseri he is calling ???

Now if at all we ismailis had a different surah and aayat number for the aayats that we recite in our dua then yes may be we could have a debate on it....But there is no question of having a debate or doubts because the verse & surah matches that of usmans book ....What do you have to say on this ?? COINCIDENCE ???

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:33 pm

All acts and obligations of our Shia Imami Ismaili Faith is called our Tariqa(the way).
it may have certain word form Khoja traditions.
I am not well read.I do not honestly know if the word Shariat is mentioned in our Ismaili constitution.

Tariqa = The Way .....But the way of what ??...The way to perform our obligations right ??....Our obligations include standing up, sitting down, raising our hands etc etc ....You can ask any missionary saheb what does all this physical exercise mean ?? ...all these exercises that you and me perform are nothing but moral and religious code = Shariah

I am sure we have no such Shariati board existing in our Jamaat.
As for the holy book, if there is even 1 % distortion.It can be called manipulated in legal parlance.

Have you ever come across the board called " Tariqah and Religious board " ??...Have you even attended religious school ?? ...What do they teach you over there ??

As this topic is of Haqaqiti conviction n proclamation of ALI Allah.
Many Ismailis are Tariqat level and obey and follow Imam as Tariqat level.
the next level knowing n seeing hin as GOD is a blessing coming out of
understanding his Fsarmans at baatin level(esoteric). or of the Pirs.
you personally are amused on the Haqiqati conviction.(it not your fault,it your blessed status)

I agree with you that we ismailis are blessed to have rope of imamat but what I dont understand is how can somebody make imam's = God ?? You and I both agree that allah[swt] is above all that we associate with him...The office of imamat is given to our imams by the one who is above all the ranks...Then how can you compare something which you or may may not even comprehend.

You must be having the solid proof to back your ali allah theory, If so then please share with us. Who knows may be a regular ismaili like me would feel enlightened

It's does happen or comes easily.there many cycles on birth for that.
you are trying to use your cleverness in putting foward your wicked Agenda.

Come on !!!....Why is it that when somebody asks you questions you simply smear attack them ?? If you dont have any solid proof to back up your claims then may be you could keep that to yourself !!...Stop with all this agenda and stuff....There is no agenda in calling hazar imam as Imam of the time [but not allah]...There is no agenda in calling hazar imam being bestowed with universal intellect [again bestowed on all the imams by allah[swt]]

If an entity attend any Gala Ball Dinner, you construct a line that Entity is partying away to glory.
For many time a haqiqati conviction statements.you cleverly,put the Zahiri observation of Imam praying our fasting as a person ,you are right at Zahiri level,which is one side of our tariqa not searching or meditating to be blessed to move beyond Tariqa.

So when Imam e Zaman performs certain zaheri obligations himself be it for his own or just for the show purpose...why then come on this forum and call other muslims with all sorts of names ??

A small example a person says 'sweet coconut water in totality
A clever n wicked person who want to degrade it's sweetness say "so you are drinking water' because you used that word to prove his/her shallowness.

A coconut water may or may not be sweet sometimes my friend, Just like some idol worshippers worship the imam of the time as an idol or dummy god where are others pray to allah[swt] by taking imam e zaman as their WASILA

Many knows what you are upto.
Cleverness struggles before Intelligence.
I have observed your earlier postings as pure Khoja Ishnasari conviction,may be a real change of heart or strategy.
you are using the word Hazar Imam,My personal opinion you have scant respect for him Inspite if any, you are at Tariqat level?
I stay put on all the statements made by me.I do not change my intention or strategy.

here we go again !!

There are grey and black sheeps within us Ismailis using this webiste to foward their agenda.

So which one are you ??

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:52 pm

Nuseri wrote

As for the holy book, if there is even 1 % distortion.It can be called manipulated in legal parlance.

Are you talking about what you call Usman's Quran?
Do you know distortion of one single Aya?
Have you compared it with Quran which is with Imam?
Or it is mere speculation!!!

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:39 pm

We are satisfied with the Ismaili sources which are known and are credible to us.

These sources are not for the outsiders, unfortunately they can not be shared with people of the Shariah.

But Ismailis who follow Farmans and take interest in the batini aspect of their faith, know about them.

There are books for primary education and there are books for university student. teaching pre-primary kids with university books become a challenge because they still have to first go through other basic knowledge such as reading, righting, counting etc...

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:56 pm

I wish to know if the word 'Shariat' is mentioned in our Ismaili Constitution.
please let me know the full line or the paragraph where that word is mentioned.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:55 pm

Whilst Hazar Imam doesn't directly mention Shariat - I think this addresses how our Tariqah views Shariah - that there is no centrally ordained codex - however there are many different interpretations adhered to by the different sects and subsects.

This interview was conducted in July 1979 by Geoffery Barker in Aiglemont, for "The Age" a Melbourne newspaper; republished by the Sunday Nation in Nairobi.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GB: Westerners are often appalled by the literal implementation of savage Qur’anic laws which permit, for example, public beheading of adulterers, the chopping off of hands and flogging for breach of alcohol prohibition. How would you as Imam defend these laws? Do you insist on their implementation among the Ismailis Muslims?

AK: You must be careful not to refer to Islamic law. There is no such thing as “Islamic law”. There are four basic schools of Islamic law in the Sunni Muslim world, there are several schools of Islamic law in the Shia Muslim world. Our attitude is simply that codes change and that what is important is the purpose behind the code.

I must say that in certain areas of the Muslim world there is a very rigid application … I am not at all saying that today the Ismaili world would encourage mutilation or flagellation or things like that … Flagellation, beheading, mutilation, these sort of things, may be a totally temporary aspect which is put forward as maybe a justification at a time of crisis.

I think you will find that generally speaking the Muslim world will not be going in that direction.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:57 pm

Whilst Hazar Imam doesn't directly mention Shariat - I think this addresses how our Tariqah views Shariah - that there is no centrally ordained codex - however there are many different interpretations adhered to by the different sects and subsects.

This interview was conducted in July 1979 by Geoffery Barker in Aiglemont, for "The Age" a Melbourne newspaper; republished by the Sunday Nation in Nairobi.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GB: Westerners are often appalled by the literal implementation of savage Qur’anic laws which permit, for example, public beheading of adulterers, the chopping off of hands and flogging for breach of alcohol prohibition. How would you as Imam defend these laws? Do you insist on their implementation among the Ismailis Muslims?

AK: You must be careful not to refer to Islamic law. There is no such thing as “Islamic law”. There are four basic schools of Islamic law in the Sunni Muslim world, there are several schools of Islamic law in the Shia Muslim world. Our attitude is simply that codes change and that what is important is the purpose behind the code.

I must say that in certain areas of the Muslim world there is a very rigid application … I am not at all saying that today the Ismaili world would encourage mutilation or flagellation or things like that … Flagellation, beheading, mutilation, these sort of things, may be a totally temporary aspect which is put forward as maybe a justification at a time of crisis.

I think you will find that generally speaking the Muslim world will not be going in that direction.

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a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:43 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:
1. The Qur'an does not have verse numberings.

2. The verse numberings are not part of the Quran.

3. The verse numberings are done by translators.

4. The verse numbering do sometimes differ from different translators.

5. The verse numbering in Sher Ali’s translation differs by one (the 'Bismillahs' are counted as a verse no 1, while most others count as 0)

6. The translations by A.J. Arberry and E.H. Palmer are in prose form and have no verse numbering (they have tried to maintain the “originality” of the Quran. Even their translations have less interpretations hence its less “user-friendly” for readers)
Brother, you're missing the whole point here....If we are to agree with whatever you have said and if quran does not have verse system then why is it that our dua books have the very same surah and aayat number as that of so called usmans book.

Naming and numbering surah's or aayat's is for our own good is it not ?? Like if every other person on this planet is called NUSERI how would a person know which nuseri he is calling ???

Now if at all we ismailis had a different surah and aayat number for the aayats that we recite in our dua then yes may be we could have a debate on it....But there is no question of having a debate or doubts because the verse & surah matches that of usmans book ....What do you have to say on this ?? COINCIDENCE ???

Ok…I didnt know dua had verse and ayat numbers…..

But anyway, back to “Ali sahi Allah”

The confusion maybe in the understanding who or what “Ali” is.

This quote from Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah might help.

“For the Ismailis, during the 60 years of his life, ‘Ali on earth was the prisoner of the material world, limited by it and suffering constantly. When we think of ‘Ali, it is not the man during these 60 years, but the eternal that came from God and returned to God direct… These are the things which must be understood, that according to the Ismaili religion Allah is the ocean. Ali, during his life on earth, was the river, separated from the ocean of the Almighty - separated from it and running towards it - overcoming all material resistance and running towards its origin.” (Aga Khan III, Mission Conference, Dar es Salaam 1945)

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:18 pm

TO ShamsB;

Ya Ali Madad and thanks for your input.(you are one of the the Paach Pandav of the forum )
The particular word if it is not mentioned in our Constitution and does come on the lips of our Hazar Imam.
Any topic or sub sect name n words should NOT be admitted in the forum in the first place.
Admin should introspect ,what level material n postings it wishes to carry in it's forum taking guide from our Constitution and Hazar Imam's stand.
because in one word of a line or act of that medieval age word is posted,Non Ismailies and n cunning tariqati have a GO at it with thier debates,fatwas n advising us to embrace it go back 1400 years and running into many many pages

To zznoor: I assume you are a Shia.( it a pleasant info ).
The Holy book per se in absolute print form may not be with the Imam.
Our absolute conviction see and hear him as BOTLA KORAN.
We have their Farmans nicely documented and recorded,which I personally see it greater than than the Holy Book.
This forum cannot address any questions u wish to put upto Imam of the time.Paticipants can express their opinion or view.
My earnest request is to read our recent Imams and Hazar Imam's Farman to understand what is the quality of Tariqat (Rational sense) and beyond that Haqiqat (Truth, ,Imaan,Intellect) is.Please read it with open mind and give Holisitic view to it.

By the way I do acknowledge that word,I have tried to expand it's definition as "maybea candle light' by Our Imam in earlier times.I even start some of my poems with that word.

TO ADMIN:
Here is the Opportunity for you to get RID of all the medieval particular word topic posting,which undermines,mocks or Insult our Ismaili Faith.Numbers of postings should NOT be important but it's content and quality

I hereby end my case.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:36 am

“For the Ismailis, during the 60 years of his life, ‘Ali on earth was the prisoner of the material world, limited by it and suffering constantly. When we think of ‘Ali, it is not the man during these 60 years, but the eternal that came from God and returned to God direct… These are the things which must be understood, that according to the Ismaili religion Allah is the ocean. Ali, during his life on earth, was the river, separated from the ocean of the Almighty - separated from it and running towards it - overcoming all material resistance and running towards its origin.” (Aga Khan III, Mission Conference, Dar es Salaam 1945)

How much more proof does our brother BABA NUSERI need ??

When the 48th imam himself declared that imam's are like rivers [channels] through which a soul gets to reach its final destination.

Imams are wasila my friend, They are the way/channel through which you and me would attain salvation. Too bad to know that you take that channel itself as the source = allah[swt]

In order to swim into this river my dear friend [nuseri] you have to learn how to swim [shariat =physical exercise] ...Once you learn how to swim, try to follow the current= way= [ Tariqat], Once you follow the current, have faith in yourself that the current is gonna take you to the desired destination [Haqiqat =True Faith]...Congratulations, you have arrived at your destination = Marifat [gnosis]

With this I rest my case of ali allah theory which is a false theory according to me...There is only one allah[swt] and he is above all that the BABA'S associate him with. We ismailis are blessed and should thank allah[swt] for giving us this rope of imamat which guides us all the way to our destination.

9) Eji Farad Furqane thi upanya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain,
Shariyat, tariqat, haqiqat, teni,
Malum che marifat mahain. Cheto.....

9. The Quran has given you the basic understanding of Shariat,
Tariqat and Haqiqat - it is up
to you now to search for Marifat

Yaa Ali Madad