A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini

[kanada]

YAM, I am an Ismaili. I was born as an Ismaili and was raised in a predominantly Sunni surrounding. As an Ismaili, I understand our fundamental belief in the predominantly Batini focus of our Tariqah. However, there are questions that I need answers.

Before I ask my questions, I want to make clarifications. I'm in my 40s and have done extensive research and the questions I have are due to the fact that I don't have strong answers with references to the Qur'an. Therefore, please do not try to provide answers without making references to the Qur'an.

We as Ismailis know that Prophet Muhammad appointed Hazrat as the Imam during Ghadir-e-Khum. The corresponding reference is Sura 5 Ayat 67:

O Apostle, deliver (to the people), what has been
revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou did not do
so, then thou hast not delivered His Message, and Allah
will protect thee from the people. (Surah Ma'eda 5:67)

During Ghadir-e-Khum, we are taught that Prophet Muhammad said that he will be leaving both the Qur'an and the Rope of Allah (The Imam) and that all should hold fast to both.

And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves. (Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

As Muslim, we believe in the last revelation from Allah, which is the Qur'an and it is the final Word of Allah. Therefore, no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in the Qur'an. The Qur'an has surahs, which can be categorized into 4 types of categories:

1. Category 1: Qur'an contains Mystical Surahs (e.g. Surah Nur)
2. Category 2: Qur'an contains Shariat Surahs (e.g. Commandments, Covenants, Law, etc)
3. Category 3: Qur'an contains Historical Surahs (e.g. Surah Al-Masadd aka Surah on Abu Lahab)
4. Category 4: Straight-forward Surahs (e.g. Surah Al-'Imran 3:103 on fasting during the month of Ramadan)

We also believe that we have the Imam of the Time who guides us to the path of Siratal Mustaqeem.

Here are my questions:

Q1: We Ismailis don't pray Namaz unlike the Ummah does. I know that in the Qur'an, there is nowhere Namaz mentioned, in fact it is mentioned by the word "Salat". That is irrelevant. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?

Q2: Why do we NOT face Qibla since we have been instructed in the Qur'an to do so?

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144)

I hear several answers such as Allah is everywhere but again, that is not a convincing answer. The Qur'an has clear instruction, then why do we not adhere?

Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:

A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:

Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?

Q4: Why do we Ismailis are not taught Qur'an in REC? Why do we Ismailis shy away from learning to read and appreciate Qur'an? We spend quality time teaching Ginan (which is an excellent tradition)....then why not Qur'an? Why the GAP?

As you have noticed that I am making references to the Qur'an as I am a strong believer in the Qur'an & the IMAM. I feel that we as Ismaili have very strong Batini focused Tariqah but our Zahiri rituals are very different, why not consistent to what Qur'an has ordained.

I am a strong practicing Ismaili and I have asked several Al-waez who just can't simply provide me a decent quality answer referencing the Qur'an.

I would appreciate some quality answers in my search. Again, a gentle reminder - please do not try to provide answers without making references to the Qur'an.

Thank you.

Ya Aly Madad.

[a_27826]

PLease read the response of "shia imami ismaili muslim" towards the end of the following link:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/lofiversi ... 10056.html

[a_27826]

Q1: We Ismailis don't pray Namaz unlike the Ummah does. I know that in the Qur'an, there is nowhere Namaz mentioned, in fact it is mentioned by the word "Salat". That is irrelevant. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?

In our tariqa, zaheri part of salat is can be changed by the Imam of the Time without changing batini part of it.

But salat is there as prescribed in the Quran.

Regarding how to perform the salat that was left with Prophet Mohamad during that time and after the Prophet, the Imam of Time.

But why go that far back ?.........
why not ask "why obligatory salat during the time of Imam Sultan Mohamad Shah was different than of today's ?"

[a_27826]

Q2: Why do we NOT face Qibla since we have been instructed in the Qur'an to do so?

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144)

I hear several answers such as Allah is everywhere but again, that is not a convincing answer. The Qur'an has clear instruction, then why do we not adhere?

can you quote the farman from the present or a past Imam instructing "not to face The Sacred Masjid" during salat ?

i tried to "google" it but found this instead

Now, if I were on a golf-course, let us say, and it was the due occasion, I should pray to God. I should not make a show of it, but I should go apart to pray, and I should turn myself towards the South-East, towards Mecca.... There is value in formal observances. I think it is well that a man should make a habit of formal prayer night and morning, for protection and in thanks. But, I place emphasis on the continual direct relation between God and man. And of recent years the best of Islam has done the same.

(Aga Khan III; MSMS) Daily Sketch Interview, ‘Is Religion Something Special?’ (London, United Kingdom)

http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/10121/

[a_27826]

Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:

A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:

Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?

Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".

002:183 O believers, prescribed for you is the siyamu, even as it was prescribed for those that were before you -- haply you will be god-fearing --

In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.

All sayings by a past imam is valid till a latter imam says otherwise.

[a_27826]

Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:

A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:

Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?

Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".

002:183 O believers, prescribed for you is the siyamu, even as it was prescribed for those that were before you -- haply you will be god-fearing --

In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.

All sayings by a past imam is valid till a latter imam says otherwise.

Searched the nanowisdoms and got this

First of all, the relations of man to God: there are no priests and no monks. There is no confession of sins, except directly to God. A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned…. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man’s health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body’s discipline through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires. Adultery, alcoholism, slander and thinking evil of one’s neighbour are specifically and severely condemned. All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally…. Wars are condemned. Peace ought to be universal.

Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors (The Memoirs of Aga Khan III)1954

http://www.nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1225/

[kanada]

In our tariqa, zaheri part of salat is can be changed by the Imam of the Time without changing batini part of it.

Thank you for your response. I really need an answer that are reference to. Can you please point me in history when this happened? Any reference, like Farhad Daftary, perhaps? As I have said, till today, everyone is giving me loose responses. Please provide convincing response with references.Thanks!

But salat is there as prescribed in the Quran.

Yes, I am aware of that. I mentioned that clearly on my question.

Regarding how to perform the salat that was left with Prophet Mohamad during that time and after the Prophet, the Imam of Time.

But why go that far back ?.........

I am NOT interested in going back. Perhaps you did not read my question carefully. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?

[kanada]

can you quote the farman from the present or a past Imam instructing "not to face The Sacred Masjid" during salat ?

I will not go into a conversation with counter questions, especially questions pertaining to where in Farman has MHI said we should not face Qibla because if the Iman has not said in any Farman that we should not, neither has he said that we should. This is NOT an answer at all, in fact it becomes a kind of chicken and the egg scenario, which to my opinion is not intellectual at all.

Now, if I were on a golf-course, let us say, and it was the due occasion, I should pray to God.

Again, this is NOT a conversation if a person is at Golf course, or at Picnic or at a Hospital or in a University. Please, I am not discussing on this level at all. We all know that if we are in a situation, we as Ismailis know what to do. I am speaking strictly on a position of a congragation level. In JK, we are not facing QIBLA, why since we are instructed to do so in Qur'an.

[kanada]

Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".

Again, I will not go into a conversation with counter questions, especially questions pertaining to where in Farman has MHI said we should not fast because if the Iman has not said in any Farman that we should not, neither has he said that we should. This is NOT an answer at all, in fact it becomes a kind of chicken and the egg scenario, which to my opinion is not intellectual at all.

In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.

Thank you...that puts me back to my track again. The Qur'an says clearly to fast during the month of Ramadan, so why don't we, especially Khoja Ismailis.

Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

As I grew up, I have observed that we Khoja Ismailis have never taken this commandment seriously. Each time I ask this question, sorry but I get replies like you just did, where did our Imam said "NO". Well, why are we not trained since young during REC about this commandment? Why is that this is not in our curriculum for the kids? Why we Ismailis don't practice this at all? And those who does, like me, are doing it without see this as part of our active practicing Tariqah.

Each prophet came with the same message, i.e. To Keep The Commandments. It came to Prophet Musa, Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammad. We can see the traces of this message even right now in Torah & Injil (New & Old Testaments). We should adhere to every testament that is in Qur'an. When it comes to this, why don't we?

[kanada]

First of all, the relations of man to God: there are no priests and no monks. There is no confession of sins, except directly to God. A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned…. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man’s health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body’s discipline through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires. Adultery, alcoholism, slander and thinking evil of one’s neighbour are specifically and severely condemned. All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally…. Wars are condemned. Peace ought to be universal.

Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors (The Memoirs of Aga Khan III)1954

Thank you for referencing. This is what I am looking for. So our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has expressed in The Memoirs of Aga Khan III. In fact, here the Imam speaks of the commandments that I discussed in my earlier response to you.

So again, why are we Ismailils not practicing this? We are strict when it comes to Shukrawar-e-Bich but when it comes to Ramadan we don't observance for full month of fasting? Never! Why?

[Admin]

When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.

I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.

[kanada]

When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.

I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.

Exactly, we should not be mistaken it to be a Farman. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah does touch on the commandment in his publication. That is an indication that we should adhere. By I fail to understand the GAP! Why the GAP?

[a_27826]

When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.

I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.

I suppose, the rule of this forum doesn't allow talikas to be posted.

interpretation of "not quoted talika" becomes difficult to grasp.

Its quite difficult to accept (as you implied) that Imam doest want his followers to believe what he says in public.

We have Imam from the progeny of the prophet who is

1. Infallible
2. Sinless
3. Pure
4. Ahl-e-zikr

Those who believe in him do taqlid on him.

Imam expects his followers to do taqlid on him.

Nicholas Tomalin: Have you used your power to make any radical changes in the Ismaili religion?

Aga Khan: You don’t change the religion. But you might change certain traditions. For instance, my grandfather made it quite clear to the Ismaili Community that women were not to wear the veil, and they no longer do. I have not made any strong directives of this type. But I hope I am modern in my outlook, and I know that in many ways I am a different sort of person from my grandfather. This will necessarily subtly change the character of the Faith.

His Highness the Aga Khan's 1965 The London Sunday Times Interview with Nicholas Tomalin (London, United Kingdom)


NT: You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?

AK: The Imam’s word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It’s one of the particularities of Ismailis. An Ismaili who did not obey my word in matters of Faith, would not be excommunicated, he would still be a Muslim. He simply would no longer be a member of the Jamat — the Community of Ismaili Muslims.

One has to make a very careful distinction here between worldly and religious matters. An Ismaili may ask my advice on a worldly problem, then not accept it. But if he were to ignore the Imam’s decision on matters of Faith, the Community pressures on him would be very strong.

The Sunday Times Interview, Part I, Nicholas Tomalin, ‘The Ruler Without A Kingdom’ (London, United Kingdom) 12 December 1965

But I think, I am guilty of derailing the main topic of “why a certain caste called khoja in the Ismaili community don’t follow some parts of the Quran”

[kanada]

Those who believe in him do taqlid on him. Imam expects his followers to do taqlid on him.

This is getting very interesting. Please explain to me what is TAQLID. I do not know and nor do I understand.

But I think, I am guilty of derailing the main topic of “why a certain caste called khoja in the Ismaili community don’t follow some parts of the Quran”

It appears that you may not be Khoja Ismaili. Is that true? If that is, may I ask which Ismaili are you? Afghan, Syrian, or? The reason I ask is because I need to understand what is an Afgan or Syrian Ismaili's position on my questions?

[a_27826]

Those who believe in him do taqlid on him. Imam expects his followers to do taqlid on him.

This is getting very interesting. Please explain to me what is TAQLID. I do not know and nor do I understand.

Taqlid means to follow a religious expert in the interpretation the religious scriptures without necessarily examining the scriptural basis or reasoning of the interpretation.

It said to be based from Quran 21:7/16:43 and 4:59

21:7/16:43 We sent none before thee, but men to whom We made revelation -- question the People of the Remembrance, if you do not know --

4:59 O believers, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. If you should quarrel on anything, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the Last Day; that is better, and fairer in the issue.

In short something similar to a Doctor - patient relationship

[Haysal]

I -----too have all these ques and I am confused too...and always get these typical answers mentioned by you....just run around ...and round.....I am a confused Ismaili

[a_27826]

I -----too have all these ques and I am confused too...and always get these typical answers mentioned by you....just run around ...and round.....I am a confused Ismaili

for a start (for now), don't follow any verses from Quran or any farmans from the Imam which you don't understand them.

for example, if you may think two different verses in the Quran are contradicting each other, then don't follow them.

but keep on reading the quran.

......latter you may have more understanding of the verses in the Quran and say "aha" actually those verses were not contradicting, its just is didn't understand them well at that time, and then follow them.

I advice you not to follow my advice as many (if not most) would not agree with it.

[Admin]

The person who is groveling in filth night and day is a slave who has no desire for freedom. What is the difference between the Shariat and the Haqiqat? They are two different things altogether. One prefers the Book , the Roja and Namaz; the other one yearns for freedom. The two are worlds apart; they shall never come together.

USUL-E -DIN - SMS - Dar-es-salaam, September 29, 1899

[tret]

My two cents:

I agree with Admin brother that Shariat and Haqiqat (Mahrefat) are different things.

Shariat is a light you need it the most at dark (night) to show you your path (Tariqat) which will eventually take you to your destination (Haqiqat). But, if it's not dark anymore, you won't need the light (Shariat). It's best to keep the light(Shariat) closer to you when it's darkest.

I don't know where you live 'kanada', but if you live in a place where you are surrounded by orthodox mainstream sunnie muslims (like Talibans), then you have no choice but to keep the light as close to you as possible.

On the other hand, in a pluralistic society, shariat doesn't prevent you from getting to Haqiqat, so long as you know the moral of Shariat (batini meaning).

You may not take it as answer, since you are looking for reference, but just felt to express my opinion about this. Good luck in your research. I hope you find what you are looking for.[/b]

[Alikaghulam]

Shariat is a light you need it the most at dark (night) to show you your path (Tariqat) which will eventually take you to your destination (Haqiqat). But, if it's not dark anymore, you won't need the light (Shariat). It's best to keep the light(Shariat) closer to you when it's darkest.

On the other hand, in a pluralistic society, shariat doesn't prevent you from getting to Haqiqat, so long as you know the [b]moral of Shariat (batini meaning).

TRET, could not agree with you more! Very well explained.

Also, In Ismailism, we are the "Batuni" faith. Of course the living Imam is the "Speaking Quran". I also agree that every Ismaili should read Quran, and understand the meaning. All the questions about why we do or do not do according to the Quran should reflect to the "Aql-E-Qul" and at changing times Imam will guide us through because he is the "Speaking Quran". Imam will tell us if certain aspect of Ummah practice is relevant or irrelevant to Ismailis, because what is necessary for us at this time and age is that the Imam has given us the basic guidance of what to do, like our Holy Dua (Namaz), Dasond (Zakah), Bandagi (Meditation) and other rights and rituals like "Shukrawari Beej", and then and explanation o­n Fasting, be it Beej or Ramadhan (Not o­nly by mouth, but with total purity during fasting like, good deeds, hear no evil, say no evil etc..). Our's (Ismailis) is to follow what the Present Imam says....PERIOD.

Now, as far as the question to why we "Ismailis" do or not do what is prescribed in the Quran like "Ramadhan Fast", then that is an individual's choice, we are NOT prohibited to fast during Ramadhan, nor it is forcefully prescribed to us by the Imam either at this time (But, as time changes, and if the Imam sees it fit then, maybe time will determine it differently in future).
Follow the basic guidance put in place by the present Imam (The speaking Quran).

In fact was reading His faramin to my daughter the other day, where Hazar Imam encourages reading and knowing Quran (Precious Gems Vol1, page44 and 45). And I believe that ALL the New Jamat Khana's and prayer halls are now being build to face Kaaba (This was a timely descision of the Imam-E-Zaman). The reason we did not have that prior is there were not many purpose built Jamat Khanas around and we certainly need to pray whether we face Kaaba or not! (Also, remember The batuni aspect of Ismailism,and Ismaili history of period of hiding until recent).

So, in conclusion, if you do more by following the Quran besides the basic guidance then more "Sawab" to you but unless the Present time Imam changes things according to time then we are to absolutely follow the Faramin. The changes in how and what to teach in our REC is again an absolute guidance from Hazar Imam, and as a matter of fact other sect of Muslims are wanting to adapt our example of "Bait-ul-ilm" approach. Hence, the descision of Du'a instead of Namaz was a descision of the Speaking Quran at that time (Sorry, don't know the Imamat period). So, if we have an Imam who interpretes Quran and changes how He wants our Namaz (Du'a) to be practiced then it is final! By the way, Du'a is verses from Quran-E-Sharrif and so is Namaz (They are both Du'as). That again, after Golden Jubilee, according to "time", Hazar Imam has approved a new Namaz (Du'a) for Ismailis. lastly, to be an Ismaili is to do Bayyah of Hazar Imam, which mean "Complete Obedience" to the Imam. Hope this helps o­n your research.
Do I have Quran backup or Faramin back up to claim what I say is valid? In my opinion and two cents worth, I'd say let's start with basic farman bardari and basic prescibed guidance, it in itself will take more than our lifetime! Quran is a "Sea of knowledge", if we fulfill just 0.1% with faith then we are lucky!

Don't take me wrong in any sense of my explanation. I meant well. Just little knowledge that I have, had to share.[

[a_27826]

Admin,

do you know what would be the cause of unwanted "characters" appearing in some peoples posts ? so that people avoid them.

like the one above, <font face="Arial">, it&#39, <br><br>, &nbsp;<br>, </font>

[Admin]

Admin,

do you know what would be the cause of unwanted "characters" appearing in some peoples posts ? so that people avoid them.

like the one above, <font face="Arial">, it&#39, <br><br>, &nbsp;<br>, </font>

I do not get this in my posts, but I think it is because I have disabled html while posting. Try that and see if the codes are still coming when you post.

Admin

[Alikaghulam]

Admin and members,

Sorry about the characters in my posting. I "viewed" it several times and also edited it a few times with/without the HTML, also tried to disable "BBCode" too but all to no avail, and finally gave up and posted it anyway, thought it might process it and re-post it correctly by itself but I guess not! . This time I am not touching any buttons, quote, code, list, HTML etc...Let's see how it turns out when I submit it.

Again, my sincere apologies to all!

UPDATE::
Well, I revisited my previous post that had the "characters". This time I clicked on "Close Tags" link underneath the URL button, and Voila! it worked! Hope this helps others. But, still not sure of the exact cause!

[agakhani]

So, in conclusion, if you do more by following the Quran besides the basic guidance then more "Sawab" to you but unless the Present time Imam changes things according to time then we are to absolutely follow the Faramin

Very well said brother, that is what I am trying to prove for a long time!, many readers understand it many doesn't, many readers think Quran is superior then farmans and ginans and many readers think present time Imam changes things according the time and circumstances so we have to follow what he is saying rather then relying on 1400 years old noble Quran!.but I agree with you there is nothing wrong to read Quran cuz it is additional sawab to you and it is belongs to all Muslims ans Ismailis are one of them

[tret]

... that is what I am trying to prove for a long time!

No! What you are trying to prove is that Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong.

... rather then relying on 1400 years old noble Quran!.but I agree with you there is nothing wrong to read Quran cuz it is additional sawab to you and it is belongs to all Muslims ans Ismailis are one of them

Do you even understand what are you trying to say? On the one hand, you are trying to prove Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong, and on the other hand, you are saying that reading Qur'an is sawab? Wah, kya batte hai. I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.

[a_27826]

... that is what I am trying to prove for a long time!

No! What you are trying to prove is that Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong.

... rather then relying on 1400 years old noble Quran!.but I agree with you there is nothing wrong to read Quran cuz it is additional sawab to you and it is belongs to all Muslims ans Ismailis are one of them

Do you even understand what are you trying to say? On the one hand, you are trying to prove Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong, and on the other hand, you are saying that reading Qur'an is sawab? Wah, kya batte hai. I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.

It seems the discussion of “Is Quran Complete” is being shifted here.

How can a reader get “sawab” from reading a scripture which the reader thinks it’s outdated or false or wrong?

Quran can’t be outdated or false or wrong but its interpretations can be outdated or false or wrong.

That is why we depend on the Imam of the Time for the best possible interpretration.

For example you might find a firman made by a past Imam contradicting with a firman of the latter Imam but both the firmans won’t be contradicting the essence of Quran.

Imam holds the key to the Batin Knowledge of the Quran and hence his farmans are always based from the essence of the Quran.

So if a past Imam instructed to establish 5 obligatory prayers and a latter Imam instructs to establish 3 obligatory prayers. Both firmans are based from the essence of the Quran but the past firman becomes invalid and not the Quran.

[tret]

... that is what I am trying to prove for a long time!

No! What you are trying to prove is that Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong.

... rather then relying on 1400 years old noble Quran!.but I agree with you there is nothing wrong to read Quran cuz it is additional sawab to you and it is belongs to all Muslims ans Ismailis are one of them

Do you even understand what are you trying to say? On the one hand, you are trying to prove Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong, and on the other hand, you are saying that reading Qur'an is sawab? Wah, kya batte hai. I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.

It seems the discussion of “Is Quran Complete” is being shifted here.

How can a reader get “sawab” from reading a scripture which the reader thinks it’s outdated or false or wrong?

Quran can’t be outdated or false or wrong but its interpretations can be outdated or false or wrong.

That is why we depend on the Imam of the Time for the best possible interpretration.

For example you might find a firman made by a past Imam contradicting with a firman of the latter Imam but both the firmans won’t be contradicting the essence of Quran.

Imam holds the key to the Batin Knowledge of the Quran and hence his farmans are always based from the essence of the Quran.

So if a past Imam instructed to establish 5 obligatory prayers and a latter Imam instructs to establish 3 obligatory prayers. Both firmans are based from the essence of the Quran but the past firman becomes invalid and not the Quran.

that's exactly what i am saying.

[Alikaghulam]

OK...Just wanted to clear up things here:

In my post, I have not, nor will I ever imply that Quran is old and outdated. Quran is as valid today as it was first revealed to our Beloved Prophet Muhammed (SAW). Yes! the correct interpretation according to time is done by the Imam of the time.

- Not trying to support "Agakhani's" statement about the Quran, but I think he meant well, just came out wrong! But, I agree you have to be careful when writing things in public, think it out first, maybe write it separately first, re-read your post a few times before you hit that Submit button. All humans err...let's not be mad and handle the discussion intellectually and forgive? (After all, that's what ISLAM teaches us!)...

[agakhani]

No! What you are trying to prove is that Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong.

That is absolutely right Tret, and I am still backing for that but as I already wrote that I am not argue further more in this regard.
Then why I read Quran? you may have question.
I already cleared it but let me clear one more time, If you still remember then I gave you an example of infected tow, you are not cut off your entire leg but just cut off that infected tow, same way (I read Quran, I read many time before and I will start to read again in future), but I do not believe some ayas which looks like out dated and false to me, I think this way because in my thinking it is either edited, deleted or outdated as per my own interpretation, (I may be wrong!) but I gave you many example before for that but it does not mean I do not read entire Quran. I think this will clear your above question, which I cleared many times before now give a sawaab to my reading of Quran is in the hand of Almighty Allah, he is Rahman and Rahim, so let him decide. lets believe that you are receiving "A" GRADE and I, may be "C" or last grade, who knows? so let him decide

Quran can’t be outdated or false or wrong but its interpretations can be outdated or false or wrong.

Who can tell you the interpretation you are making of certain ayas are right or wrong? or the Yusuf Ali's interpretation is right and Pickthaul's interpretation is wrong? In my thinking MHI can say that but it is very hard to make contact with him and ask about that. In my thinking reading his farmans and obey what he is says to do is same sawaab as you read and obey the hidayats from Quran!

- Not trying to support "Agakhani's" statement about the Quran,

Sorry to say brother, I do not need support or advise from any one as long "Quran" is concern.

Let me believe what I think about Quran and you can believe what you think about Quran! I do not have any problem for that, no argument, no hard feeling any more, but I think we should not bring that old thread here again whether Quran is complete or incomplete?

[Admin]

Stick to the subject of rites and ceremonies in this thread please.