Problem

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:39 am

I dunno for how long but I think now is the time to ask as there is this question that keeps on bothering me.....I have been thinking that a person may have an issue with me....one might be wrong, two might be wrong but not all of them.....So I think this is the time that I should ask for your help.....I would really really appreciate if I could get an aswer from maherali bhai, shamsB bhai....admin bhai, agakhani bhai , pardesi uncle and even sister zina.khan .....basically those who all are active.......this is the question

1] Why did we changed our namaz and transformed it into the dua ?? Like my dad said that the 47th imam Hazrat Imam Aga Ali Shah [as] lead the namaz as soon as he reached mumbai [bombay].....Like what was the need for us to change namaz into dua.....plus I also know that we ismailis used to recite dua given to us by our pirs [even before imam aga ali shah[as]] migrated....So Iam really really confused as on one hand we had khojas reciting dua[hindu gods] and on the other hand we have imam[as] who performed namaz......which one is correct ??

I have more than one question [3 questions] .....Is it ok if I ask you all to bear with me as I would like to ask you all one question at a time ??

I love this faith and Im lucky that I was born in this faith but knowing only half of the things is like having half knowledge [which is dangerous]....so is there anyone willing to help with this question because this is the main reason why I always say that everything looked good until the 47th imam[as] and from 48th imam everything changed [ like dua, juro, majlis etc etc]

Thank You !!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:24 pm

shiraz.virani wrote: 1] Why did we changed our namaz and transformed it into the dua ?? Like my dad said that the 47th imam Hazrat Imam Aga Ali Shah [as] lead the namaz as soon as he reached mumbai [bombay].....Like what was the need for us to change namaz into dua.....plus I also know that we ismailis used to recite dua given to us by our pirs [even before imam aga ali shah[as]] migrated....So Iam really really confused as on one hand we had khojas reciting dua[hindu gods] and on the other hand we have imam[as] who performed namaz......which one is correct ??

Perhaps your father meant that the 47th Imam recited Idd Namaz. As far as I understand, our Jamats had been reciting Dua given by Pir Sadardeen until 1954 when our latest Dua was given. We never had a Namaz as a daily ritual.

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:58 pm

It is hard to trust you Shiraz that you are honest when you say you need help with this "problem" that you have.

Nevertheless, I am pasting a link to an article about Ismaili dua from this very website. Hope this helps.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/19202

pardesi

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:29 am

Why did we changed our namaz and transformed it into the dua ??

Good question Shiraz but as per my little knowledge there is no difference in Namaz, dua or in Quranic word SALAT. whatever name you give it it is a worship of almighty Allah, a Bhajan sung in temples by Hindu devotee is also dua, namaz or salat.
The reason to make dua in Sindhi-Katchi language by pir Sadardin was , during Pir Sadardin's era peoples didn't know Arabic, because they just converted from Hindus and they were still in influence of Hindu god-goddess, that is why you can find some Hindu Gods name in our Old dua like Brahma, Vishnu.e.t.c also it was very hard for them to learn Arabic and pronounce Arabic words correctly, so pir mabap made easy Dua in their spoken language during that time, so that they can understand it better.

A Hindu devotee worship Bhajan in Gujarati or Hindi, A Christian worshiper worship in English language, a Jews worship in Hibru, no matter which language you worship, how you worship it always goes to God, that is for sure.
Don't be surprise and it is possible that Mowlana Hazar Imam may instruct Pakistani Ismailis to adopt Namaz instead of dua to avoid crisis, it is possible but it is only in hand of MHI and political and religious situation. By the way there is nothing wrong if you go in mosque on and off and pray Namaz over there along with our three times dua and other religious duties.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:20 am

Perhaps your father meant that the 47th Imam recited Idd Namaz. As far as I understand, our Jamats had been reciting Dua given by Pir Sadardeen until 1954 when our latest Dua was given. We never had a Namaz as a daily ritual.

I just asked him and he said that my grand father told him that when imam aga ali shah [maa/baap] came to india he was accompanied by his followers from iran and thus the imam[as] went to the mosque and offered prayers along with our ismaili brothers present in mumbai at that time....Well is it possible that the prayer that imam[as] was leading was recited or performed by ismailis residing in iran at that time ???

Is it possible that imam[as] felt that if he[as] tried to change the dua of khojas, they might get confused ??

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:23 am

It is hard to trust you Shiraz that you are honest when you say you need help with this "problem" that you have.

Nevertheless, I am pasting a link to an article about Ismaili dua from this very website. Hope this helps.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/19202

pardesi

Thanks pardesi uncle for this informative article.....and once again I do apologise for what I said in other forum....Hope you'll forgive me !!

And I was browsing through library here on ismaili.net.....Its asking for some username and password....how can i get in ??

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:27 am

Good question Shiraz but as per my little knowledge there is no difference in Namaz, dua or in Quranic word SALAT. whatever name you give it it is a worship of almighty Allah, a Bhajan sung in temples by Hindu devotee is also dua, namaz or salat.
The reason to make dua in Sindhi-Katchi language by pir Sadardin was , during Pir Sadardin's era peoples didn't know Arabic, because they just converted from Hindus and they were still in influence of Hindu god-goddess, that is why you can find some Hindu Gods name in our Old dua like Brahma, Vishnu.e.t.c also it was very hard for them to learn Arabic and pronounce Arabic words correctly, so pir mabap made easy Dua in their spoken language during that time, so that they can understand it better.

A Hindu devotee worship Bhajan in Gujarati or Hindi, A Christian worshiper worship in English language, a Jews worship in Hibru, no matter which language you worship, how you worship it always goes to God, that is for sure.
Don't be surprise and it is possible that Mowlana Hazar Imam may instruct Pakistani Ismailis to adopt Namaz instead of dua to avoid crisis, it is possible but it is only in hand of MHI and political and religious situation. By the way there is nothing wrong if you go in mosque on and off and pray Namaz over there along with our three times dua and other religious duties.

You're right but I was just curious as to why 47th imam performed namaz in JK....but the article that pardesi uncle gave is very informative ....Im still reading it....once Im done may be i wont have that doubt anymore...insha allah !

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:29 am

By the way there is nothing wrong if you go in mosque on and off and pray Namaz over there along with our three times dua and other religious duties.

Yes I do go to the mosque on friday's for jumma prayer as the JK in sugarland is locked during the day time !!

How can i get hold of ismaili namaz that imam said will be available ??....I asked the mukhi here and he said the namaz is not available to the US jamat at this point of time !!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:52 am

Shiraz,

I don't think that Ismaili Namaz available yet if I am not mistaking , Do you think USA jamats need it? I don't think so, old Dua is just fine brother.
By the way I thought you live in Memphis, Tennessee have you moved recently in Sugar-land, Texas? or are you still there in Sugar Land, Tennessee(!)? if you moved in Texas then we can meet because I visit Sugar Land, Tx very often, so please let me know, I buy you a lunch

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:05 am

Shiraz,

I don't think that Ismaili Namaz available yet if I am not mistaking , Do you think USA jamats need it? I don't think so, old Dua is just fine brother.
By the way I thought you live in Memphis, Tennessee have you moved recently in Sugar-land, Texas? or are you still there in Sugar Land, Tennessee(!)? if you moved in Texas then we can meet because I visit Sugar Land, Tx very often, so please let me know, I buy you a lunch

Well the reason why I asked about ismaili namaz is because I can perform ismaili namaz even if iam in sunni mosque on friday's......and yes I have few stores in memphis and few here in houston....So basically I go back and forth but since you live in austin, you would be my guest

.....We shall go to bandu khan sometime

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:43 am

shiraz.virani wrote: I just asked him and he said that my grand father told him that when imam aga ali shah [maa/baap] came to india he was accompanied by his followers from iran and thus the imam[as] went to the mosque and offered prayers along with our ismaili brothers present in mumbai at that time....Well is it possible that the prayer that imam[as] was leading was recited or performed by ismailis residing in iran at that time ???

Is it possible that imam[as] felt that if he[as] tried to change the dua of khojas, they might get confused ??

As the article referred by pardesi states, the Dua was meant for the Ismailis in the Sub continent and Ismailis in other parts such as Iran performed Namaz. So naturally since Aga Ali Shah was with the Iranians he would lead them in Namaz.

There was no question of changing the Dua. If the Imam ordered the change, the Jamat would have followed unquestioningly. There was no reason and there has not been one to date to bring any changes.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:33 am

As the article referred by pardesi states, the Dua was meant for the Ismailis in the Sub continent and Ismailis in other parts such as Iran performed Namaz. So naturally since Aga Ali Shah was with the Iranians he would lead them in Namaz.

I just finished reading the article that pardesi uncle referred me to.....I have to tell you that there are things which I wasnt aware of like :

It is related that the Shia Ismailis began to recite their own Arabic-Persian Namaz, known as the “Kalimatul Haq” (The Word of Truth) in Alamut period. In the beginning line, the word “Hazrat Baba Sayedna” (Hasan bin Sabbah) is mentioned, also implies its composition in Alamut period. It was in practice for a long time in Iran and other parts of the Central Asia

So I do agree with you maherali bhai that it is possible that since khoja dua was meant only for indian subcontinent at that time it makes sense to say that our 47th imam[as] lead the traditional namaz which was practised in Iran and other parts of central asia for over centuries !!

There was no question of changing the Dua. If the Imam ordered the change, the Jamat would have followed unquestioningly. There was no reason and there has not been one to date to bring any changes.

History says that the dua has been revisted by imams[as] and pirs over the period of time......like when I was reading I came accross sairaiki dua of pir shams and then sindi dua by pir sadrurddin....This old sairaiki dua was then replaced by sindi dua with EASE !!!.....So you're right once again brother !!

I also read that this same sindhi dua continued till the arrival of imam ali shah[as] and the imam[as] appointed one pir [ I forgot his name] to revise the dua further !!!......so basically Ismailis in india started reciting dua after the arrival of pirs and the dua was revised various times by different imams !!

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:10 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
It is hard to trust you Shiraz that you are honest when you say you need help with this "problem" that you have.

Nevertheless, I am pasting a link to an article about Ismaili dua from this very website. Hope this helps.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/19202

pardesi
Thanks pardesi uncle for this informative article.....and once again I do apologise for what I said in other forum....Hope you'll forgive me !!

And I was browsing through library here on ismaili.net.....Its asking for some username and password....how can i get in ??

As far as your apology is concerned, I will address it in the other forum.

Your username and password should be the same as you use for the forum postings. Admin may be able to help you in this regard.

pardesi

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:45 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
Perhaps your father meant that the 47th Imam recited Idd Namaz. As far as I understand, our Jamats had been reciting Dua given by Pir Sadardeen until 1954 when our latest Dua was given. We never had a Namaz as a daily ritual.
I just asked him and he said that my grand father told him that when imam aga ali shah [maa/baap] came to india he was accompanied by his followers from iran and thus the imam[as] went to the mosque and offered prayers along with our ismaili brothers present in mumbai at that time....Well is it possible that the prayer that imam[as] was leading was recited or performed by ismailis residing in iran at that time ???

Is it possible that imam[as] felt that if he[as] tried to change the dua of khojas, they might get confused ??

shiraz.virani wrote: You're right but I was just curious as to why 47th imam performed namaz in JK....but the article that pardesi uncle gave is very informative ....Im still reading it....once Im done may be i wont have that doubt anymore...insha allah !

It was Imam Hassanali Shah, the 46th Imam who came to India as Imam in 1852(?) and not Imam Ali Shah who was only 22 years old. He did not become Imam until 1881 which was 30 some years later. So he did not have any followers, per se, at that time since he was not the Imam. It is quite possible that he did lead some murids that came with him from Iran, and by some accounts there were 300-400 in the entourage that came with the Imam from Iran. If there is any historical evidence then one could look at this in its proper context and respond properly.

Then there is this question of where he offered the Islamic namaz, masjid or JK. In one post (above) you said it was masjid and in another you said it was JK.

Just out of curiosity, was your grandfather living at the time Imam migrated to India in 1852 or did he hear it from his father or grandfather.Just want to establish if the information is first hand or not.

From what I have read and heard, Imam Ali Shah used to come to JK and sometimes lead the jamat in prayers (dua) as well as perform niaz ceremony during his piratan.

pardesi

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:21 am

It was Imam Hassanali Shah, the 46th Imam who came to India as Imam in 1852(?)

Pardesi,
The correct year was 1842 when Mowlana Hassanali Shah(s.a.) came in Zirak, Sind first now it is in Pakistan but during our 46th Imam arrival it was part of British India.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:30 am

From what I have read and heard, Imam Ali Shah used to come to JK and sometimes lead the jamat in prayers (dua) as well as perform niaz ceremony during his piratan.

Pardesi,

That is correct, you have heard right there was a chair always remain reserved for Imam Ali Shah near Mukhi Saheb in 'WADI JAMAT KHANA" and during his piratan post Imam Ali Shah performed OLD DUA many times, this fact is described by Abuali in his many waez.

our Jamats had been reciting Dua given by Pir Sadardeen until 1954

KBHAI,

Actually, the old Dua was composed by Pir Shams (s.a.) first, but Pir Sadardin made some changes in it and adopted it in place of Arabic Namaz and since then it was reciting in Jamat till the year 1954, of course it was changed by Imam Ali Shah and Pir Shahbudding Shah latter on during their time, so matter of fact old dua has been changed three times since it was first composed by Pir Shams.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:41 am

Then there is this question of where he offered the Islamic namaz, masjid or JK. In one post (above) you said it was masjid and in another you said it was JK.

By mosque I meant ismaili mosque[JK] uncle !!

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:47 am

Just out of curiosity, was your grandfather living at the time Imam migrated to India in 1852 or did he hear it from his father or grandfather.Just want to establish if the information is first hand or not.

Im pretty sure that my grandpa might have heard about this from his father

From what I have read and heard, Imam Ali Shah used to come to JK and sometimes lead the jamat in prayers (dua) as well as perform niaz ceremony during his piratan.

Yes my dad also said that imam[as] used to give khutbah on friday's....I dunno whether this is true !!

pardesi · Post by **pardesi** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:30 am

agakhani wrote:
It was Imam Hassanali Shah, the 46th Imam who came to India as Imam in 1852(?)
Pardesi,
The correct year was 1842 when Mowlana Hassanali Shah(s.a.) came in Zirak, Sind first now it is in Pakistan but during our 46th Imam arrival it was part of British India.

Thank you "agakhani" for the correction. According to some accounts Imam Hassanali Shah arrived in Zirak in 1842 and stayed in the vicinity for some time and did not arrive in Bombay until 1846 (1st time). Upon his arrival the Persian government objected to his settling in Bombay and eventually the Imam was forced to settle in Calcutta where he stayed until Qajar died in 1848. Soon after he set out for Bombay and settled there for good.

You are right, 1852 was not the correct year as I had mentioned earlier.

pardesi

Post by **Admin** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:27 am

shiraz.virani wrote: By mosque I meant ismaili mosque[JK] uncle !!

There is no such tings as Ismaili Mosque. I have never heard such expression from the Imam. A Jamatkhana is not a Mosque.

There is more difference between a Mosque and a Jamatkhana then between [comparison deleted]

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:50 am

There is no such tings as Ismaili Mosque. I have never heard such expression from the Imam. A Jamatkhana is not a Mosque.

There is more difference between a Mosque and a Jamatkhana then between [comparison deleted]

Thanks for clarification Admin bhai

http://prec.110mb.com/Documents/satpanth.pdf

www.ismaili.net

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