I’ve known different depictions of Abraham, Hazrat Issa (Jesus Christ) and Hazrat Yaqub (Jacob) and Hazrat Yusuf (Joseph) and Mussa (Moses)…etc, over different mediums but have not seen any of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
Can someone give any Islamic or Ismaili principle or guidance from Quran, Hadith or Farmans of any Ismaili Imam (AS) in regards to depicting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Hazrat Ali (AS) or other family members of the Holy Prophet in photos, movies or other media.
please, personal opinions need not be responded with.
Depicting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)...
Go to Topkapi Museum in Turkey, there are 40,000 pictures of the Prophet [PBUH], some laughing, some severe, some happy, some just smiling face, some with inquisitive eyes..
In Maghreb and in Iran these pictures are still seen today.
There are also Muslim literary works well known in history which are full of illustrations of the Prophet [PBUH] but some extremists would say it does not exist "in Islam".
In Maghreb and in Iran these pictures are still seen today.
There are also Muslim literary works well known in history which are full of illustrations of the Prophet [PBUH] but some extremists would say it does not exist "in Islam".
In Iran, Syria, Iraq you will see depictions of Hazarat Ali S.A.W. and Hazarat Hasan and Imam Hussein riding horses. As a matter of fact one Ismaili woman from Iran gave me a Persian Carpet to hang on the wall with the picture of Mowla Ali S.A. and another Ismaili friend who visited Iran brought me a photo frame of Mowla Ali S.A.W. sitting and holding the sword Zulfikar.
Well, I’m not sure if I would go to Turkey just to see Hazrat Muhammad’s pictures…so I googled Topkapi Museum but couldn’t find much there… I’ve had seen some imaginary pictures, paintings and other type of representations of Him at different sites and articles including the Wikipedia…and unfortunately, some of those could be very offensive and controversial to some people.
Anyways, I think, I meant to ask is if there is any Islamic religious instruction whether as of prohibition or approval regarding…let’s say, to portray Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or His family in a film or a show. I suppose there is none and so is discretionary, but it is generally expected to be respectful with common sense depending upon time and place.
Anyways, I think, I meant to ask is if there is any Islamic religious instruction whether as of prohibition or approval regarding…let’s say, to portray Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or His family in a film or a show. I suppose there is none and so is discretionary, but it is generally expected to be respectful with common sense depending upon time and place.
I goggled the following:
Are Pictures of Muhammad Really Forbidden In Islam?
I found very use fool and informative links. One most agreeable to me was opinion of a scholar which I liked the best is as follows:
One finds a number of traditions from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, condemning people who make Tasweer, which denotes painting or carving images or statues. It was closely associated with paganism or shirk. People were in the habit of carving images and statues for the sake of worship. Islam, therefore, declared Tasweer forbidden because of its close association with shirk (association of partners with Allah). One of the stated principles of usul-u-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence) is that if anything directly leads to haram, it is likewise haram. In other words, Tasweer was forbidden precisely for the reason that it was a means leading to shirk.
The function of photography today does not fall under the above category. Even some of the scholars who had been once vehemently opposed to photography under the pretext that it was a form of forbidden Tasweer have later changed their position on it - as they allow even for their own pictures to be taken and published in newspapers, for videotaping lectures and for presentations; whereas in the past, they would only allow it in exceptional cases such as passports, drivers’ licenses, etc. The change in their view of photography is based on their assessment of the role of photography.
Having said this, one must add a word of caution: To take pictures of leaders and heroes and hang those on the walls may not belong to the same category of permission. This may give rise to a feeling of reverence and hero worship, which was precisely the main thrust of the prohibition of Tasweer. Therefore, one cannot make an unqualified statement to the effect that all photography is halal. It all depends on the use and function of it. If it is for educational purpose and has not been tainted with the motive of reverence and hero worship, there is nothing in the sources to prohibit it." End of Quote
Allah knows the best, Be good be humble
zz Noor
Are Pictures of Muhammad Really Forbidden In Islam?
I found very use fool and informative links. One most agreeable to me was opinion of a scholar which I liked the best is as follows:
One finds a number of traditions from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, condemning people who make Tasweer, which denotes painting or carving images or statues. It was closely associated with paganism or shirk. People were in the habit of carving images and statues for the sake of worship. Islam, therefore, declared Tasweer forbidden because of its close association with shirk (association of partners with Allah). One of the stated principles of usul-u-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence) is that if anything directly leads to haram, it is likewise haram. In other words, Tasweer was forbidden precisely for the reason that it was a means leading to shirk.
The function of photography today does not fall under the above category. Even some of the scholars who had been once vehemently opposed to photography under the pretext that it was a form of forbidden Tasweer have later changed their position on it - as they allow even for their own pictures to be taken and published in newspapers, for videotaping lectures and for presentations; whereas in the past, they would only allow it in exceptional cases such as passports, drivers’ licenses, etc. The change in their view of photography is based on their assessment of the role of photography.
Having said this, one must add a word of caution: To take pictures of leaders and heroes and hang those on the walls may not belong to the same category of permission. This may give rise to a feeling of reverence and hero worship, which was precisely the main thrust of the prohibition of Tasweer. Therefore, one cannot make an unqualified statement to the effect that all photography is halal. It all depends on the use and function of it. If it is for educational purpose and has not been tainted with the motive of reverence and hero worship, there is nothing in the sources to prohibit it." End of Quote
Allah knows the best, Be good be humble
zz Noor
zztop…I mean zznoor, I think pictures, paintings, statutes and other artistic stuff of Holy figures and entities are not forbidden in general consensus of majority of schools in Islam…off course, if it is all about just symbolism and nothing more.
My point is that portraying Prophet Muhammad’s character by someone is generally not so welcomed or sanctioned without debate in Muslim community and around and if that is because of straight teachings of Quran, hadith of the prophet, and in our times, in Farmans of the Imams (AS) or other divine source or is it just the ideology of some people with strict and extreme interpretations of historical and contemporary Islam?…and if later is the case then, obviously, it is null and void.
My point is that portraying Prophet Muhammad’s character by someone is generally not so welcomed or sanctioned without debate in Muslim community and around and if that is because of straight teachings of Quran, hadith of the prophet, and in our times, in Farmans of the Imams (AS) or other divine source or is it just the ideology of some people with strict and extreme interpretations of historical and contemporary Islam?…and if later is the case then, obviously, it is null and void.
ZZNoor....The cultivation of love and affection for the prophets, his family and close and sincere companions is one of the principles of islam ! This has been stressed by both the quran and the Sunna...kindly read Sura Tawba verse 24; Sura al Ar'af verse 157; Sura al Sh'ura - verse 23.
Showing love and reverance has also been stressed in the Ahadith...so kindly go and do some research and read some good authors instead of simply "googling" from sites that belong to the medieval pagans.
Evidently the substance of inner love cannot ever be completely manifested if it is deprived of some outward radiance of that love in action - rather any sensible and logically thinking person will concede that one of the aims of affection is that one's own speech and action, must be harmonious to the echo of this affection.
Additionally there is also a philosophical underpinning i.e. maintaining the grandeur of such persons or saints or prophets or Imams and their schools of thoughts thereby upholding the perspective which they had brought.....in a way it strengthens the idea that the spirituality of these great ones helps us to take a fresh look at our own lives and reform our mental and spiritual attitudes and also reminds us of the hereafter.
The word ghulaw in the arabic language means going beyond the limit...I see no evidence to any such excesses....your outward profession of islam without love for the Prophets, Imams, saints and martyrs of islam is valueless as far as I believe and so one must maintain circumspection and apply appropriate criteria which unfortunately those swinging on their pillars of exoterism may or may not understand or appreciate....nor do a proper evaluation of the beliefs in question.....
Showing love and reverance has also been stressed in the Ahadith...so kindly go and do some research and read some good authors instead of simply "googling" from sites that belong to the medieval pagans.
Evidently the substance of inner love cannot ever be completely manifested if it is deprived of some outward radiance of that love in action - rather any sensible and logically thinking person will concede that one of the aims of affection is that one's own speech and action, must be harmonious to the echo of this affection.
Additionally there is also a philosophical underpinning i.e. maintaining the grandeur of such persons or saints or prophets or Imams and their schools of thoughts thereby upholding the perspective which they had brought.....in a way it strengthens the idea that the spirituality of these great ones helps us to take a fresh look at our own lives and reform our mental and spiritual attitudes and also reminds us of the hereafter.
The word ghulaw in the arabic language means going beyond the limit...I see no evidence to any such excesses....your outward profession of islam without love for the Prophets, Imams, saints and martyrs of islam is valueless as far as I believe and so one must maintain circumspection and apply appropriate criteria which unfortunately those swinging on their pillars of exoterism may or may not understand or appreciate....nor do a proper evaluation of the beliefs in question.....
BBC to show film on Muhammad's life
PA
The BBC is to trace the journey of the Islamic prophet Muhammad for a new series which is claimed to be a first for British television.
Al Jazeera reporter Rageh Omaar will present the three-part programme for BBC2, following in the prophet's footsteps from Mecca and along the journeys he took during his life.
To ensure the programmes are in line with Islamic tradition, they will not depict the face of Muhammad or feature dramatic reconstructions of his life.
The Life Of Muhammad is to be screened next month and will follow events such as his migration to Medina and the founding of the first Islamic constitution, through to his death. It will also examine his legacy and the impact of the faith he established.
The trio of hour-long films have been made by Faris Kermani, the director and producer of Channel 4 series Seven Wonders Of The Muslim World.
The BBC's commissioning editor for religion and ethics, Aaqil Ahmed, said:
"For some people in the UK, Muhammad is just a name, and I hope this series will go some way to explaining who he was, how he lived, what his prophetic message was, and how all of this compares to his legacy today.
"This is a very timely landmark series filmed in Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem, Syria, Turkey, the USA, the UK and Jordan. It features comment from some of the world's leading academics and commentators on Islam - a subject that many people may know little about."
The BBC said the programmes would raise questions about Islam's role in the world today and explore "where Islam's attitudes towards money, charity, women, social equality, religious tolerance, war and conflict originate".
Omaar is a former world affairs correspondent for BBC news who joined Al Jazeera's English service in 2006.
He said:
"The details of Muhammad's life really are little known, and I hope that my series will - for many - shine a light on the very beginning of Islam, taking viewers to the heart of this faith, illustrating just how Muhammad's life and legacy is as important today as it was over 1,000 years ago."
PA
The BBC is to trace the journey of the Islamic prophet Muhammad for a new series which is claimed to be a first for British television.
Al Jazeera reporter Rageh Omaar will present the three-part programme for BBC2, following in the prophet's footsteps from Mecca and along the journeys he took during his life.
To ensure the programmes are in line with Islamic tradition, they will not depict the face of Muhammad or feature dramatic reconstructions of his life.
The Life Of Muhammad is to be screened next month and will follow events such as his migration to Medina and the founding of the first Islamic constitution, through to his death. It will also examine his legacy and the impact of the faith he established.
The trio of hour-long films have been made by Faris Kermani, the director and producer of Channel 4 series Seven Wonders Of The Muslim World.
The BBC's commissioning editor for religion and ethics, Aaqil Ahmed, said:
"For some people in the UK, Muhammad is just a name, and I hope this series will go some way to explaining who he was, how he lived, what his prophetic message was, and how all of this compares to his legacy today.
"This is a very timely landmark series filmed in Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem, Syria, Turkey, the USA, the UK and Jordan. It features comment from some of the world's leading academics and commentators on Islam - a subject that many people may know little about."
The BBC said the programmes would raise questions about Islam's role in the world today and explore "where Islam's attitudes towards money, charity, women, social equality, religious tolerance, war and conflict originate".
Omaar is a former world affairs correspondent for BBC news who joined Al Jazeera's English service in 2006.
He said:
"The details of Muhammad's life really are little known, and I hope that my series will - for many - shine a light on the very beginning of Islam, taking viewers to the heart of this faith, illustrating just how Muhammad's life and legacy is as important today as it was over 1,000 years ago."
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shiraz.virani
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The only , only and only problem in depicting or portraying rasool[saw] is that people would start worshipping the picture....Just like we ismailis do !
I know how when i was in India my dad used to burn the lobaan and used to do aarti of imam .............He still does this and so do millions of ismailis !!
To stop people from idolatory all the imams or different sect objected on this issue and hence no paintings or depiction is allowed in regards of rasool[saw] as it leads to idolatory
I know how when i was in India my dad used to burn the lobaan and used to do aarti of imam .............He still does this and so do millions of ismailis !!
To stop people from idolatory all the imams or different sect objected on this issue and hence no paintings or depiction is allowed in regards of rasool[saw] as it leads to idolatory
Yes extremists would say that depicting the Prophet is idolatry, they would even kill for this. But many devoted Muslims, especially Shias, have done so in history.
I think you have always misunderstood the Ismailis.
I do not know any of them worshiping pictures, they look at the picture and worship the Noor of the Imam out of their love, in the same manner one would look and even kiss a photo of the beloved son, daughter, husband, wife. Only fools would say the person is kissing a piece of paper.
If a Tasbihr is a reminder of the Divinity, what better reminder of the Noor of Allah then the picture of the Imam of the Time?
I keep a photo of my daughter in my cell phone, I hope Allah does not punish me for idolatry....
Some of our common Muslim friends also keep a photo of some black stone in their phone. May Allah have mercy on them.
Admin
I think you have always misunderstood the Ismailis.
I do not know any of them worshiping pictures, they look at the picture and worship the Noor of the Imam out of their love, in the same manner one would look and even kiss a photo of the beloved son, daughter, husband, wife. Only fools would say the person is kissing a piece of paper.
If a Tasbihr is a reminder of the Divinity, what better reminder of the Noor of Allah then the picture of the Imam of the Time?
I keep a photo of my daughter in my cell phone, I hope Allah does not punish me for idolatry....
Some of our common Muslim friends also keep a photo of some black stone in their phone. May Allah have mercy on them.
Admin
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shiraz.virani
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Well I beg to differ.....I would say those who believe in one god would say that it leads to idolatry and I do agree with them....However Im opposed to killing of those who express their creativity.....But if someone tries to portray our rasool[saw] in bad taste then yes that person should be put on trial and punished accordingly.Yes extremists would say that depicting the Prophet is idolatry, they would even kill for this. But many devoted Muslims, especially Shias, have done so in history.
I dont think so....Infact of all these years of studying ismailism and its roots Im convinced that majority of those settled in india/pak/africa and other places treat agakhan as GOD....I know most of em hide this but its a fact !!!I think you have always misunderstood the Ismailis.
Plus one should stop and ask !!!!.....If a living person[he/she] who is treated as the god head cannot stop the events that are going to occur in Present/future ...can his/her photo can do any help ???
My dad does !!.....He's the alijah ......every morning when he goes to the store he burns the lobaan , do aarti[you know how hindus use hand actions while doing aarti] of agakhan and pray for wealth/peace and what not !.....And this is the case with each and every single shop owner [ismaili] that i know of in my city....because i have seen all that in personI do not know any of them worshiping pictures, they look at the picture and worship the Noor of the Imam out of their love, in the same manner one would look and even kiss a photo of the beloved son, daughter, husband, wife. Only fools would say the person is kissing a piece of paper.
I never expected this from you ! .....So according to you the noor of allah[swt] is limited to imam e zaman only ???If a Tasbihr is a reminder of the Divinity, what better reminder of the Noor of Allah then the picture of the Imam of the Time?
If yes then What about other universes/galaxies ??? Is there no noor of allah there ??
Do you worship your daugther ? heheheI keep a photo of my daughter in my cell phone, I hope Allah does not punish me for idolatry....
Some even have a photo of kabba in their houses ....do they worship kabba ?? Ask them and you would get the most satisfactory answer insha allahSome of our common Muslim friends also keep a photo of some black stone in their phone. May Allah have mercy on them.
Admin
Each murid has his or her personal relationship with the Imam. It is not a matter of hiding the truth but rather preventing misunderstanding. You do not reveal the esoteric aspects of your faith in an exoteric context. From an exoteric point of view he is the Imam, but from an esoteric point of view he could be anything depending upon the individuals faith.shiraz.virani wrote: I dont think so....Infact of all these years of studying ismailism and its roots Im convinced that majority of those settled in india/pak/africa and other places treat agakhan as GOD....I know most of em hide this but its a fact !!!
Plus one should stop and ask !!!!.....If a living person[he/she] who is treated as the god head cannot stop the events that are going to occur in Present/future ...can his/her photo can do any help ???
Problems, trials and tribulations are presented so that individuals and humanity can grow. Hence God will never remove problems. Life is made of problems.
You see you do not get it. The Noor is not confined to the body, rather it is all-encompassing. The Imam is the Mazhar which means he is the locus of manifestation of the Noor.shiraz.virani wrote: I never expected this from you ! .....So according to you the noor of allah[swt] is limited to imam e zaman only ???
If yes then What about other universes/galaxies ??? Is there no noor of allah there ??
As the Quran states Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Imam is the Mazhar of that Light and hence he is called the Lord of the worlds.
Can you tell us what the answer would be?shiraz.virani wrote:
Some even have a photo of kabba in their houses ....do they worship kabba ?? Ask them and you would get the most satisfactory answer insha allah
Admin
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shiraz.virani
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Thats exactly what i said...Most ismailis do worship imam as GOD IN FLESH ....both physically and spiritually because for ismailis both the spiritual world and material world are not seperateEach murid has his or her personal relationship with the Imam. It is not a matter of hiding the truth but rather preventing misunderstanding. You do not reveal the esoteric aspects of your faith in an exoteric context. From an exoteric point of view he is the Imam, but from an esoteric point of view he could be anything depending upon the individuals faith.
Thanks for clarifying my doubt maherali bhai
And when did i said life is not made up of problems ??? ....Life is the test which is already mentioned in holy quran....God will test us in whichever way he wants !!......If he will he can and will remove problems again mentioned in quran.....lets take an example of h.musa[as] and his tribe ....they were physically moved/shifted from one place to another on gods command....However gods will is not limited to that and i do agree tht god always comforts us whenever we are in any kind of trouble...in whichever way he wants !Problems, trials and tribulations are presented so that individuals and humanity can grow. Hence God will never remove problems. Life is made of problems.
So if it is not confined to the body alone....then why look up to his picture and ask for help ?You see you do not get it. The Noor is not confined to the body, rather it is all-encompassing. The Imam is the Mazhar which means he is the locus of manifestation of the Noor.
Agreed that allah[swt] is the light of the heavens and the earth !....But how can this light be specifically inside a mans body in one universe and absent in others ?? Thats my question !!As the Quran states Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Imam is the Mazhar of that Light and hence he is called the Lord of the worlds.
Mazhar = Appearance
So which means for ismailis his[imams] appearance is godly in human form......but logically NOT GOD HIMSELF !!!!..............This is the key maherali bhai.....But as there is freedom of speech in this forum I will move along with your suggestion , although I completely disagree with that !
Maherali bhai if I give you this answer I know for sure you would never go ask this to any devout muslim.....and I dont want that to happen...Sooo please go and ask any muslim of anyyyyyyyyyyy sect what are his views regarding khanekabba and you shall get the answer....If you still dont then surely I would be more than happy to answer your question....thats a promiseCan you tell us what the answer would be?
In your earlier post you said:shiraz.virani wrote: And when did i said life is not made up of problems ???
"Plus one should stop and ask !!!!.....If a living person[he/she] who is treated as the god head cannot stop the events that are going to occur in Present/future ...can his/her photo can do any help ???"
What did you mean by that?
Read the post by Admin above about the significance of symbolsshiraz.virani wrote: So if it is not confined to the body alone....then why look up to his picture and ask for help ?
How do you know it is absent in other universes?shiraz.virani wrote: Agreed that allah[swt] is the light of the heavens and the earth !....But how can this light be specifically inside a mans body in one universe and absent in others ?? Thats my question !!
I do not have time to go elsewhere, but since you are a devout Muslim why don't you give your answer?shiraz.virani wrote: Maherali bhai if I give you this answer I know for sure you would never go ask this to any devout muslim.....and I dont want that to happen...Sooo please go and ask any muslim of anyyyyyyyyyyy sect what are his views regarding khanekabba and you shall get the answer....If you still dont then surely I would be more than happy to answer your question....thats a promise
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shiraz.virani
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Let me enlighten you ......Now if you're talking about circling the kaaba which most of the muslims do which is a part and parcel of hajj which again is one of the pillars of islam..... Well they do it because H.ibrahim[as] , H. Ismail[as], H.Rasool[saw] and even H.Ali[as] did it....But most of all they do it because it is mentioned in quran and it is also mentioned in the very same quran where allah[swt] commanded muslims to take H.Ibrahim[as] resting station as the house of GODWhy worship a stone? Why kiss it? Why turn around it? Is this not because it symbolize something precious?
And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah) at Mecca, (saying), 'Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, all Knower. [Noble Quran 2:127]
How and why muslims perform such rites ???
Our Lord! And make us submissive unto you and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our Manasik (all the ceremonies of Pilgrimage - Hajj and ‘Umrah etc.) and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful. [Noble Quran 2:128]
Who showed them those rites brother admin ?
...was ita] H.Ibrahim[as]
b] H.Ali[as]
c] H.rasool[saw] or
d] Agakhan III [who abolished islamic hajj and instead started ismaili hajj]
You can do audience poll if you want (':lol:')
Now let us come to a very interesting subject which you're sooo curious about i.e BLACK STONE
First of its not a black stone, it is black and metallic in color....If for say this stone is destroyed or stolen will it affect the prayers of momins who come there to perform hajj ? NO !!!!!!!!!.......Unfortunately this very stone was once stolen by our ismaili ancestors called "QARMATIANS"....For 20 days or may be more the stone was not present in kaaba....did it stop its ritual ?? NO !!! .....then what makes you think that it is soooooo special for muslims ?? The practise that most muslims follow is called sunnah of muhammad[saw] and this sunnah comes down from hadiths which iam strictly against of
....which means if i go to hajj you wont see me kissing the stone, banging my head on it nor taking the picture right beside it to put it on facebook .....Its worthless to me !!Most muslims do it as it is mentioned in imam bukharis hadiths, but they dont worship the stone because when our ismaili ancestors stole that rock the majority still used to worship allah my making circles around the kaaba and so on ....In the same hadith of bukhari bhaiya it is said that
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabi'a: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said, "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can either harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you. Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari, Al-Hajj, page 396 No. 808 on the Black Stone
If you have any other doubts please lemme know ....after all you're the admin of this website
hehehe....so you mean to say that those who love allah[swt] are not intelligent ?The world of symbols can only be understood by 2 types of people, those who love God or those who are intelligent. Pick your choice.
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shiraz.virani
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I asked this question in regards to HUMAN GOD and not allah[swt]....for there is no comparision between the two....Human god in the sense sri sai baba who died recently , he was regarded as god by his own people ....he predicted that he would die at the age of 96 but instead died in his 80's"Plus one should stop and ask !!!!.....If a living person[he/she] who is treated as the god head cannot stop the events that are going to occur in Present/future ...can his/her photo can do any help ???"
when a person like him and his look alikes cannot predict the present or the future, will they then do any good to us ??? that was my point !!
Agakhan III said in his memoirs i guess that ishna sharis will perish in next 100 years
My dad said, Agakhan IV in 1950's said that in next 50 years man will go to the moon to have a cup of tea
These are just a few examples that human god do make mistakes !!
Its been taken care ofRead the post by Admin above about the significance of symbols
Oh no i never said its absent....I actually tried to apply your logic of noor of allah[swt] which is enclosed in a body of human present on earth who guides mankind present on earth....thats noor of allah[swt] for you.....so that made me think for a second that if like a genie in the bottle, the noor of allah[swt] is inside the body of the human , how is it possible for allah[swt] to be in one particular spot and manage the work of BILLIONS OF GALAXIES on which there might live ZILLIONS of creaturesHow do you know it is absent in other universes?
The point that I was trying to make is GOD IS EVERYWHERE and not just in one person .....Infact quran supports this where it says : wherever you turn you see face of allah[swt]
You have the time to browse internet but you dont have time to understand your faith ?? Not fair maherali bhai !!!I do not have time to go elsewhere, but since you are a devout Muslim why don't you give your answer?
You dont have to LEARN IT, EARN IT !!!
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shiraz.virani
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And Remember when We showed Ibrahim (Abraham) the site of the Holy House (the Ka'bah) at Mecca saying: Associate not anything in worship with Me, [La Ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah - Islamic Monotheism], and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up for prayer, and those who bow and submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allah), and make prostration in prayer. [Noble Quran 22:26]
And proclaim to mankind the Hajj. They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant wide mountain highway to perform Hajj.
[Noble Quran 22:27]
and from Al-Masjid-al-Haram at Mecca which We have made open to all men, the dweller in it and the visitor from the country. [Noble Quran 22:25]
Say [O Muhammad (peace be upon him)]: 'Verily, my Salah (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists), He has no partner, And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. [Noble Quran 6:162-163]
That they may witness things that are of benefit to them.
[Noble Quran 22:28]
Pilgrimage, therefore, is never a pagan rite, but rather the fulfillment of an incumbent duty of the man [who is god loving and intelligent ] concerning One-God worship !
And proclaim to mankind the Hajj. They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant wide mountain highway to perform Hajj.
[Noble Quran 22:27]
and from Al-Masjid-al-Haram at Mecca which We have made open to all men, the dweller in it and the visitor from the country. [Noble Quran 22:25]
Say [O Muhammad (peace be upon him)]: 'Verily, my Salah (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists), He has no partner, And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. [Noble Quran 6:162-163]
That they may witness things that are of benefit to them.
[Noble Quran 22:28]
Pilgrimage, therefore, is never a pagan rite, but rather the fulfillment of an incumbent duty of the man [who is god loving and intelligent ] concerning One-God worship !
The information you have provided is not accurate. Can you provide references or proofs of what you have said. Anyone can invent stories to substantiate their ideas...shiraz.virani wrote: I asked this question in regards to HUMAN GOD and not allah[swt]....for there is no comparision between the two....Human god in the sense sri sai baba who died recently , he was regarded as god by his own people ....he predicted that he would die at the age of 96 but instead died in his 80's
when a person like him and his look alikes cannot predict the present or the future, will they then do any good to us ??? that was my point !!
Agakhan III said in his memoirs i guess that ishna sharis will perish in next 100 years
My dad said, Agakhan IV in 1950's said that in next 50 years man will go to the moon to have a cup of tea
These are just a few examples that human god do make mistakes !!
I have never said that the Noor is confined to his physical body. I have said the Noor is everywhere but the Imam is the Mazhar of the Noor and hence he is the Lord of the worlds!shiraz.virani wrote: Oh no i never said its absent....I actually tried to apply your logic of noor of allah[swt] which is enclosed in a body of human present on earth who guides mankind present on earth....thats noor of allah[swt] for you.....so that made me think for a second that if like a genie in the bottle, the noor of allah[swt] is inside the body of the human , how is it possible for allah[swt] to be in one particular spot and manage the work of BILLIONS OF GALAXIES on which there might live ZILLIONS of creatures
I understand my faith very well, I just don't understand yours. Please explain and stop avoiding the answer.shiraz.virani wrote: You have the time to browse internet but you dont have time to understand your faith ?? Not fair maherali bhai !!!
You dont have to LEARN IT, EARN IT !!!
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shiraz.virani
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In Zanzibar on 13 July Agakhan III said in his Farman:The information you have provided is not accurate. Can you provide references or proofs of what you have said. Anyone can invent stories to substantiate their ideas..
Within 10, 20 or 30 years, the Ithna shari religion will be worn out. After 100 years the Ithna shari religion will not exist at all. It will not exist in Iran either because that religion's base is not on Aq'l [the power of reasoning]. Our religion's base is on Aq'l.
And regarding agakhan IV ...I think he said about moon stuff during takht nashini ...I shall find out the firman from one of the firman books and insha allah will try to post the exact firman with day and date , insha allah
I have never said that the Noor is confined to his physical body. I have said the Noor is everywhere but the Imam is the Mazhar of the Noor and hence he is the Lord of the worlds!
So that means for you agakhan= mazhar = apperance = GOD LIKE , right ??
I understand my faith very well, I just don't understand yours. Please explain and stop avoiding the answer.
My faith is that which all 47 imams[as] taught to devout momins.....ie belief in one god
We slightly lost our track from 48th imam...who made soooo many changes in our faith....transforming our religion into a business....but now people are getting more and more educated about their faith and so we are boing back.....back to the time of 46th imam where ismailis used to practise REAL ISLAM
......thats the real shia imami nizari ismaili islam that I FOLLOW shiraz.virani wrote: In Zanzibar on 13 July Agakhan III said in his Farman:
Within 10, 20 or 30 years, the Ithna shari religion will be worn out. After 100 years the Ithna shari religion will not exist at all. It will not exist in Iran either because that religion's base is not on Aq'l [the power of reasoning]. Our religion's base is on Aq'l.
This is not true. The Farman made on 13 July 1899 states:
" Deens(religions) that are not based on reason ( intellect) will disappear gradually."
There is no mention of the number of years and there is no mention of Ithna asharis nor Iran.
I will await your reference. What about the prediction of living to the age of 96. Where did you get that from?shiraz.virani wrote: And regarding agakhan IV ...I think he said about moon stuff during takht nashini ...I shall find out the firman from one of the firman books and insha allah will try to post the exact firman with day and date , insha allah
shiraz.virani wrote: So that means for you agakhan= mazhar = apperance = GOD LIKE , right ??
Yes and for all the worlds!
This is ridiculous. The 48th and 49th have always taught about belief in one God. Please provide references to the contrary.shiraz.virani wrote: My faith is that which all 47 imams[as] taught to devout momins.....ie belief in one god
We slightly lost our track from 48th imam...who made soooo many changes in our faith....transforming our religion into a business....but now people are getting more and more educated about their faith and so we are boing back.....back to the time of 46th imam where ismailis used to practise REAL ISLAM
This is inaccurate! The exact Farman states:shiraz.virani wrote: My dad said, Agakhan IV in 1950's said that in next 50 years man will go to the moon to have a cup of tea
"When you think that you will be able to leave this world and go and spend the weekend on the moon or Venus or something like that, this is a fact which may be very far from you today , but I want to understand that this is not a thought which will be far from your children."
Please provide references when you quote something next time!
Kmaherali;kmaherali wrote:This is inaccurate! The exact Farman states:shiraz.virani wrote: My dad said, Agakhan IV in 1950's said that in next 50 years man will go to the moon to have a cup of tea
"When you think that you will be able to leave this world and go and spend the weekend on the moon or Venus or something like that, this is a fact which may be very far from you today , but I want to understand that this is not a thought which will be far from your children."
Please provide references when you quote something next time!
Zealots will go to any extent and malign and misinterpret many facts to make their point. It is their insecurity and lack of conviction in their own stance that makes them attack the belief and the faith of others.
Shiraz is unconvinced in his own faith (isna asherism - as is apparent from his posts) that he is trying to shout it out from the rooftops and prove everyone else wrong.
What Shiraz has failed to notice is the true beauty of ismailism - where the Imam says - there is no compulsion in faith - we don't issue fatwas, we don't force our faith down other people's throats - and people are free to leave as they choose - however as stated by both Hazar Imam and Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - this is not a faith of convenience but one of conviction - and what i'd suggest to Shiraz is this;
If you aren't convinced that this is the right path - please feel free to pursue what you will - I, for one, will pray for your success and happiness. Don't stay within our faith and sling mud at our beliefs. I don't know about anyone else, but I will tell you this - if ismailism is the sure path to hell - then i am glad i am on that path - i have given my baiyah to the imam and now..this is what i follow..of my own volition and conviction.
You can't even say that can you?
Shams
Just out of curiosity, we know why muslims circumambulate the Ka’aba during Hajj but Shiraz could you enlighten us as to the significance of this ritual. We know that Quran says it is the house of Allah and we also know that it is an empty cube. Do muslims believe that Allah lives there? As for kissing the black/metallic stone – why was it kissed by Prophet Mohammad s.a.w. ? Does it not then make it part of the ritual or worshipping as you call it? Is there any explanation in Islamic books or may be hadith literature?”shiraz.virani” wrote: Now if you're talking about circling the kaaba which most of the muslims do which is a part and parcel of hajj which again is one of the pillars of islam.....
Hajj is a pillar of your Faith, not Islam itself. Deen of Allah does not need pillars to stand upon; rather it is your faith that is based upon those pillars. My understanding of course and may not be the official stand of Ismaili tariqah.
Qarmatians were not the ancestors of modern day Ismailis. The did not accept the authority of the Fatimid caliphs in Cairo. Here I am pasting an article from Wiki:”shiraz.virani” wrote: Unfortunately this very stone was once stolen by our ismaili ancestors called "QARMATIANS"....For 20 days or may be more the stone was not present in kaaba....did it stop its ritual ?? NO !!! .....
“The revolution and desecration shocked the Muslim world and humiliated the Abbasids. But little that could be done; for much of the tenth century the Qarmatians were the most powerful force in the Persian Gulf and Middle East, controlling the coast of Oman and collecting tribute from the caliph in Baghdad as well as from a rival Ismaili imam in Cairo, whom they did not recognize.”
It is like saying that Musta’li Ismailis were the ancestors of Nizari Ismailis. Please refer to authentic history of Qarmatians. I am sure it will help you in your ignorance in this regard.
For an Ismaili, Imam = mazhar = place of appearance/manifestation of Allah’s mercy and guidance. What you are saying is attributing divinity to the person of Aga Khan by saying “=GOD LIKE”. Mazhar does not mean God appears in the Aga Khan, nauzobillah. You are putting words in peoples mouths.”shiraz.virani” wrote: So that means for you agakhan= mazhar = apperance = GOD LIKE , right ??
So what did all 47 imams teach and who were these devout momins?”shiraz.virani” wrote: My faith is that which all 47 imams[as] taught to devout momins.....ie belief in one god …..
What were these so many changes that you have problem with and how did he transform the religion into a business? Is it because you do not like to pay dasond and religious dues. Haven’t you always maintained and tried to mislead ismailis into not paying dasond if their income was less than their expenses?”shiraz.virani” wrote: …..48th imam...who made soooo many changes in our faith....transforming our religion into a business
”shiraz.virani” wrote: …..now people are getting more and more educated about their faith and so we are boing backback to the time of 46th imam where ismailis used to practise REAL ISLAM ......thats the real shia imami nizari ismaili islam that I FOLLOW …
Going back to what? The teachings of the 46th Imam? Earlier you said Ismailism was ok until the 47th Imam. So who is your current Imam? One of the fundamental belief of a Shia is that there has to be an Imam present at all times! I take it that you do not have a living Imam any more. Some time ago during our arguments you had accepted Karim Aga Khan as your Imam and guide – what happened to that?
Pardesi
I am copy/pasting one of Shiraz Virani's previous posts where he actually accepted Karim Aga Khan as his 49th Imam. Of course it was a lie so he could mislead every one. Scroll down to the bottom.
The Forum is Doctrines and the thread is “Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni”
Posted: 06 Jan 2010 04:42 pm Post subject:
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I finally rest my case against this cancer.
I hope we have seen the last of you disguising as an ismaili on these forums, Mr. Virani!
pardesi
The Forum is Doctrines and the thread is “Questions about Ismailism from a Sunni”
Posted: 06 Jan 2010 04:42 pm Post subject:
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He accepts Karim Aga Khan as the 49th lord and living shah/pir and manfestation of Allah's grace and the rope of Allah. And now today he is denying the Imam his right to be all that.@ below will not only shut your foolish mentality, but will also make you realise that what you're trying to teach my brothers and sisters is completely against what imam e zaman is saying :
I am a Muslim and Muslims believe that all men are equal no matter what the colour of their skin and I am therefore fundamentally opposed to apartheid in any form. I would wish to emphasize that Islam is probably the most multi-racial faith existing.
[Interview] 11 Nov. 1970
-- Aga Khan IV
I think we have difficulty making people around the world realise what is the Islamic World. One should not confuse Sub-Saharan Africa with Central Asia. One should not confuse Central Asia with countries of Asia such as Malaysia and Indonesia. These are different peoples, with different histories, that have been converted to Islam at different times, that have evolved since then, that have different languages, that have different interpretations.
[LBC Interview]
-- Aga Khan IV
The cultural contexts in which over one billion Muslims have been reared and shaped are simply not understood in much of the world. Even the most basic elements of 1400 years of Islamic civilization are absent from the curricula in most of the world's schools. The subject is just not on the world's educational radar screen. And the result is an enormous vacuum
[Cape Town 1996]
-- Aga Khan IV
What does it (the West) know about the Islamic world? Is anything taught in secondary education? Does anybody know the names of the great philosophers, the scientists, the great theologians? Do they even know the names of the great civilizations?
[Interview 2 Feb. 2002"]
-- Aga Khan IV
now this brothers and sisters is my mawla who is the defender of islam....the 49th lord [living shah/pir]...manifestation of allah[swt]'s grace....a rope of allah[swt] that stretches down to earth.
THIS IS MY IMAM
I finally rest my case against this cancer.
I hope we have seen the last of you disguising as an ismaili on these forums, Mr. Virani!
pardesi
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shiraz.virani
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Oh no ....I think you're talking about different firman, the firman which iam talking about was given in the year 1959 in africa ....I shall post the exact words of the firman tomorrow but this is what our imam said and I quoteThis is inaccurate! The exact Farman states:
"When you think that you will be able to leave this world and go and spend the weekend on the moon or Venus or something like that, this is a fact which may be very far from you today , but I want to understand that this is not a thought which will be far from your children."
"You may laugh at me when I say that your children in next 50-60 years will go on the moon to have a cup of tea"
Unfortunately we all know that the moon landing was all STAGED and not for real
If going on the moon was piece of cake then do you think countries like USA/RUSSIA will limit themselves on earth ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MVVtFYTSo
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shiraz.virani
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Yawns !!!Virani is just fooling everyone...he is anti Ismaili !
Admin...I am trying to grasp the system as yet...my earlier posting did not come out good....so please delete it for now until I am able to re post it nicely...Thanks..zk
Im a shia imami ismaili nizari muslim but with a pinch of difference and that is I dont believe agakhan as god like you do !
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shiraz.virani
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- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
pardesi said :
Omg !!!! I cant believe you went to a length of wasting your precious time just looking [actually reading] my posts.....Good job parru, you made me proud
However I do accept Agakhan as the imam of the time, who is a human just like you and me, but in my words yes he is the manifestation of gods grace......How do you define manifestation of gods grace parru ??? Does manifestation of god = Representative , The one who acts according to the commands of god , Vicar of god [which I always try to emphasis] ?
OR
Is he MAZHAR = Appearance which means looks like god or Living god in human flesh
Appearance = Image, Resemble, Persons look and so on
Exactly my point !!....When we cant answer logical questions, we tag people with ulcer,cancer etc etc.....way to go parru, this is what I always expect from you .....And you never disappoint me
He accepts Karim Aga Khan as the 49th lord and living shah/pir and manfestation of Allah's grace and the rope of Allah. And now today he is denying the Imam his right to be all that.
Omg !!!! I cant believe you went to a length of wasting your precious time just looking [actually reading] my posts.....Good job parru, you made me proud
However I do accept Agakhan as the imam of the time, who is a human just like you and me, but in my words yes he is the manifestation of gods grace......How do you define manifestation of gods grace parru ??? Does manifestation of god = Representative , The one who acts according to the commands of god , Vicar of god [which I always try to emphasis] ?
OR
Is he MAZHAR = Appearance which means looks like god or Living god in human flesh
Appearance = Image, Resemble, Persons look and so on
I finally rest my case against this cancer.
Exactly my point !!....When we cant answer logical questions, we tag people with ulcer,cancer etc etc.....way to go parru, this is what I always expect from you .....And you never disappoint me
Yawns !!I hope we have seen the last of you disguising as an ismaili on these forums, Mr. Virani!
pardesi